The Kennedy's - The Jackie Tapes -Jackie O’s disdain for the Irish: Stew, prayers and

CDfm

Some fly on the way stuff has just been broadcast in the USA.

Jackie O’s disdain for the Irish: Stew, prayers and ‘persecution’




Jackie Kennedy: said Irish people have a persecution complex and she hated our food. Photo: Getty Images


By DONALL HOEY

Wednesday September 14 2011

JACKIE Kennedy was disdainful of the Irish who she considered having a persecution complex and she hated our food.
She spoke out against the Irish Americans who surrounded her husband in the tapes of a seven-part conversation the former first lady had with the historian and former aide to her husband, Arthur Schlesinger soon after President Kennedy was assassinated.
Irish-American website irishcentral.com reported on Mrs Kennedys scorn for her husband’s community after the tapes were broadcast on national television in the US last night.
Speaking of those close to her husband she stated “there was the Irish Mafia... who now, some of them, at least from the Irish-- are just so bitter about everyone else.”
“There seems to be all these Irish-- they always seem to have a persecution thing about them,” she said.
Her brother-in-law Ted Kennedy didn’t escape her criticism as she was disdainful of his “Irish” style of political campaigning. "Jack never said ‘Hi Fella' or put his fat palm under your armpit, or any of that sort of business,” she noted.
Irish cuisine wasn’t to her tastes either as she considered remaking the menu so that the White House kitchen served French food rather than a traditional Irish dish, a major step-up in her opinion.
“French food is a plus instead of a minus-- that you don’t like, stay in a kitchen all day making Irish stew.” she noted.
Her late husband’s devout Catholicism also came in for criticism with her telling how every night he’d "come in and kneel on the edge of the bed --cross himself and say his prayers. -- it was just like a little childish mannerism.”
She also reveals the suspicious nature of her mother-in-law Rose Kennedy, a devout Catholic, and says that she always demanded to know if someone was Catholic.
Earlier in the week, it emerged in the media that the former First Lady considered civil right campaigner Martin Luther King a “phony” who regularly cheated on his wife and dubbed French president Charles de Gaulle an "egomaniac".
- DONALL HOEY

’


http://www.independent.ie/national-news/jackie-orsquos-disdain-for-the-irish-stew-prayers-and-lsquopersecutionrsquo-2876157.html

I gave up reading Kennedy material when I was around 18 , too many conspiracy theories and body counts i.e. more sex than the Beatles .

In the tapes she suspected Vice President Lyndon B Johnson as being behind the assasination and discusses her and JFK's affairs. Martin Luther King is branded a phony by her.

So who and what were the Kennedy's. ?

donaghs

CDfm wrote: »

So who and what were the Kennedy's. ?

How do you mean who and what?

Regarding the MLK issue, I've always found it interesting how his extra-marital affairs are rarely mentioned. Whereas Kennedy's are constantly being raked over.

I think MLK was a great man who achieved a lot for civil rights. Despite many who criticised him for compromising, being too soft etc (Malcolm X, etc) King has many concrete achievements too his name. e.g. civil rights legislation etc.

However, the way he is portrayed as a flawless "saintly" character is at odds with aspects of his character which Jackie O was referring to. Despite being a Christian Minister, and married with 4 children, MLK carried on numerous extra-marital affairs. These allegations began with deliberate leaks by FBI surveillance, and have since been confirmed since by accounts of people close to him, like Ralph Abernathy.

The actual nature of the affairs is still open to some debate. J Edgar Hoover of the FBI clearly hated King, and wanted to destroy his character and remove him from public life. Hoover was also known for selectively leaking details/gossip when trying to curry favour or frighten important individuas. He may have choosen to focus on and exagerate King's infidelities in his selective leaking, e.g. allegations of orgies with prostitutes, beating up women etc.

Do extra-marital affairs matter if he did so much good in his public life? Maybe not, but it still has an impact today. John Edwards political career is one example of someones public life being derailed by their private affairs.

CDfm

donaghs wrote: »

How do you mean who and what?
.

The tapes have been released to ABC with the agreement of JFK's daughyer Caroline in return for an agreement not to broadcast a Kennedy Mini-series.

Here are some video's

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdv7roLUXN0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2erXFf0bQ4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2S3HHkSA3z0

Lyndon Johnson gets a bad rap -though he brought forward the Kennedy's Civil Rights agenda faster than they would have. Her comments can be viewed as a result of her trauma.

Between all the hype , these guys were serious politicians and power brokers and along with being a style icon Jackie O was educated witty and sophisticated. Who wouldn't have knelt in prayer going to bed with her

Other links are here and her grandchildren are shocked about her views on women.


http://news.google.ie/news/story?hl=en&q=jackie+kennedy&gs_upl=0l0l1l188l0l0l0l0l0l0l0l0ll0l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&biw=845&bih=358&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ncl=dAeKhrSgCR2HPLMZvJ_hAlZxvLW3M&ei=ID9zTt-XK4rNhAeUipHUDA&sa=X&oi=news_result&ct=more-results&resnum=1&ved=0CDEQqgIwAA


JFK made a state visit to Ireland in 1962 and Jackie subsequently brought her children to Ireland on holiday.

dave2pvd

CDfm wrote: »

The Kennedy's - The Jackie Tapes -Jackie O’s disdain for the Irish: Stew, prayers and

Certainly some interesting information has been unearthed. Nothing earthshaking, mind you.

Regarding the above caption, I'd say one needs to be a bit more specific. Her comments seem to be about Irish-Americans, not necessarily Irish as a whole. I can certainly understand the persecution complex they would have had at the time - Catholics coming to power was not a welcome development for blueblood wasps.

MarchDub

CDfm wrote: »

JFK made a state visit to Ireland in 1962 and Jackie subsequently brought her children to Ireland on holiday.

For those of us who were around at the time - and actually saw JFK close up - it was June 1963. Have to say the whole country went crazy - there was constant live coverage of the event on RTE. This at a time when live all day TV coverage was virtually unknown. I still have many of the images in my head - JFK drinking tea outside of his ancestral cottage from a large laid out picnic table, then sitting inside by the fireplace. He came across as a genial, affable kind of man.

She gave an interview immediately - or soon - after the assassination that was broadcast on RTE. I wasn't too impressed with her at the time. Thought the low whispery voice a bit phony - but I was young and judgmental at the time

MarchDub

dave2pvd wrote: »

\- Catholics coming to power was not a welcome development for blueblood wasps.

Yes, true. I remember Kennedy had to actuality make a statement before Protestant ministers at a breakfast meeting or something where he said that his religion would not impact on his presidency.

Catholicism was still not at all fully accepted in the USA at the time, especially in the bible south.

dave2pvd

MarchDub wrote: »

Catholicism was still not at all fully accepted in the USA at the time, especially in the bible south.

Actually, I don't know that it was worse in the South - different, certainly. For sure, there were less Catholics than the upper East Coast. However, so much of the 'ruling class' were WASPs from the North East. There is plenty of history of anti-Catholic/anti-Irish behavior in Massachusetts.

I live in a city that is something of an island of progressiveness right in the middle of the South. I have heard interesting stories about how friends' pastors and ministers have denounced Catholics from the pulpit at church. Most of the stories were from years ago. The denominations tended to be the more extreme flavors of 'Christianity', such as Episcopalian, Southern Baptist and the so-called non-denominational churches (basically Southern Baptist).

dave2pvd

MarchDub wrote: »

For those of us who were around at the time - and actually saw JFK close up - it was June 1963. Have to say the whole country went crazy - there was constant live coverage of the event on RTE. This at a time when live all day TV coverage was virtually unknown. I still have many of the images in my head - JFK drinking tea outside of his ancestral cottage from a large laid out picnic table, then sitting inside by the fireplace. He came across as a genial, affable kind of man.

It always amazed me how the Irish fireplace in so many homes had pictures of the sacred heard of Jesus, the Pope and JFK.

I wonder what pictures Kenyans have above the fire?

MarchDub

dave2pvd wrote: »

It always amazed me how the Irish fireplace in so many homes had pictures of the sacred heard of Jesus, the Pope and JFK.

I wonder what pictures Kenyans have above the fire?

Well you know I think local iconography is just that - when I lived in the UK every home I went in to had pictures of the Royal family everywhere. The pianos were favourite places. Right in there with the family pics.:D

Then I lived in the US and around NY it was pictures of Roosevelt and JFK - or Eisenhower with small US flags draped over the top. In the south - Virginia and Georgia - it was frequently Lee with those flags.

CDfm

Just a reminder of his Dail speech

And Wexford - if you look closely you can see MD waving a flag

Jackie visited Ireland again in 1967 for a family holiday

ejmaztec

Her late husband’s devout Catholicism also came in for criticism with her telling how every night he’d "come in and kneel on the edge of the bed --cross himself and say his prayers. -- it was just like a little childish mannerism.”

He was probably praying that his wife never found out about the women he was chasing.

CDfm

ejmaztec wrote: »

He was probably praying that his wife never found out about the women he was chasing.

Trust you to lower the tone

Jackie was a catch - debutante of the year - marrying Irish american royalty she was part of the package.

But hey, her husband presided over the Bay of Pigs as close the world has come to nucleur war.

Latchy

It wasn't just Jackie O who wasn't to fond of the Irish roots connection .

JFK's father , Joeseph snr ( who during his younger days , was eager to climb up the social ladder among the wealthy Boston, anglo saxon ,protestan community ) wanted to play it down to and was livid when he was refered to several times in a Boston newspaper as that '' that Irishman '' He was heard to say after reading the article '' God dammit ... I was born in America , my children were born in American and first and formost , we all all Americans''.

Source - Kennedy , An Unfinished Life by Robert Dallek ( Which is on my bedside table )

CDfm wrote: »

The tapes have been released to ABC with the agreement of JFK's daughyer Caroline in return for an agreement not to broadcast a Kennedy Mini-series.

Which was available to view on the web by anybody ,then shortly after on UK History channel , then recently on BBC 2 , and will be soon if not already, on dvd .It wasn't like any great mystery about the Kennedys came as anybody familiar with them knows except it showed the more ruthless side of Joseph Kennedy snr and his lust for power ,for himself and all the Kennedys .

CDfm

Joseph Kennedy sr Ambassador to the Court of St James in London 1938 to 40 and Chairman SEC 1935 & 1936. Very respectable.




Daughter Kathleen (1920-1948) became Marchioness of Hartington wife of the heir of the Duke of Devonshire .

The Kennedy's had arrived in London and held their own.

Latchy

Joseph Kennedy sr shot himself in the foot when prior to the outbreak of WW2, showed himself to be very much in favour of appeasing Hitler and saw the war as something that was terrible ...terrible not so much for the human loss that was to come but more because it scuppered his personell interests .

His eldest son Joe jnr ( who he had earmarked for the presidency ) against warnings that his plane was not equipped to handle the bomb load , went ahead and took on a suicidal mission which resulted in his plane exploding before it even crossed the English channel .The second major casualty in a family that would later become synonymous with the word ' tragedy ' .

CDfm

He was a steel executive, but the bits I picked up have him producing movies and involved in booze during prohibition.

Chairman of the SEC is a fairly big cheese in the capital restructuring of depression era USA and he was king of Wall Street and a FDR associate.

US ambassador to the UK during peace is different to a wartime ambassador.

"Peace in our time" was British PM Neville Chamberlain's policy too and Stalin appeased -so Joe sr was not alone. Ireland "appeased" with neutrality. He was anti-war.

So you can't blame him for appeasement. A bit anti-semetic but he did not bring his sons up to be.

dave2pvd

Latchy wrote: »

It wasn't just Jackie O who wasn't to fond of the Irish roots connection .

JFK's father , Joeseph snr ( who during his younger days , was eager to climb up the social ladder among the wealthybBoston, anglo saxon ,protestent community ) wanted to play it down to and was livid when he was refered to several times in a Boston newspaper as that '' that Irishman '' .He was heard to say after reading the article '' God dammit ... I was born in America , my children were born in American and first and formost , we all all Americans''. .

Source - Kennedy , An Unfinished Life by Robert Dallek ( Which is on my bedside table )

Which was available to view on the web by anybody ,then shortly after on UK History channel , then recently on BBC 2 , and will be soon if not already, on dvd .It wasn't like any great mystery about the Kennedys came as anybody familiar with them knows except it showed the more ruthless side of Joseph Kennedy snr and his lust for power ,for himself and all the Kennedys .

You have to wonder if Joe was actually responding to an attempt to slight him. Describing him as Irish could well be an attempt to paint him as 'not one of us'. I believe that's what he was railing against - rather than trying separate himself from his Irish heritage.

Quotes need need context. The Kennedys were in the midst of a complex power struggle. You really can't examine what was said in isolation.

CDfm

JFK on religion and politics.

Kennedy used the media in his campaigning and this especially benefitted him versus Nixon who was ugly.

Many people felt Nixon won on radio coverage but lost out on TV.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QazmVHAO0os

hotmail.com

So was Jackie not religious given she mocked her husband's bedtime routine?

That would be rare to have a non-religious First Lady.

CDfm

hotmail.com wrote: »

So was Jackie not religious given she mocked her husband's bedtime routine?

That would be rare to have a non-religious First Lady.

I doubt it. I think mocking is a bit strong.What was her birth religion.

What I saw was how "mean" she was in a girlie way. Her frizzy perm comments about Pat Nixon are just funny.

She knew how to deliver a put down.

CDfm

MarchDub wrote: »

Yes, true. I remember Kennedy had to actuality make a statement before Protestant ministers at a breakfast meeting or something where he said that his religion would not impact on his presidency.

Catholicism was still not at all fully accepted in the USA at the time, especially in the bible south.

Was that the speech in the Youtube

dave2pvd wrote: »

Actually, I don't know that it was worse in the South - different, certainly. For sure, there were less Catholics than the upper East Coast. However, so much of the 'ruling class' were WASPs from the North East. There is plenty of history of anti-Catholic/anti-Irish behavior in Massachusetts.

I thought they loved us " toralooraloora " and all that ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5C3UHiD29BI

I live in a city that is something of an island of progressiveness right in the middle of the South. I have heard interesting stories about how friends' pastors and ministers have denounced Catholics from the pulpit at church. Most of the stories were from years ago. The denominations tended to be the more extreme flavors of 'Christianity', such as Episcopalian, Southern Baptist and the so-called non-denominational churches (basically Southern Baptist).

Was there substance behind his presidency and other than his assasination what was there ???

What did he actually do ?

MarchDub

CDfm wrote: »

Was that the speech in the Youtube

Yes, - the one above at the 'Houston Ministerial Association'.

CDfm wrote: »

Was there substance behind his presidency and other than his assasination what was there ???

What did he actually do ?

Both JKF and his brother Bobby - who was his Attorney General - were very prominent in the Civil Rights issues. They were - and remain - very well respected among Black Americans for this reason.

In September of 1962, James Meredith sought to enroll as the first black student in the history of the University of Mississippi (Ole Miss). His enrollment triggered substantial resistance from the University, the community of Oxford Mississippi, and the Governor of the state, Ross Barnett. As a result, President John F. Kennedy ordered federal marshals to ensure Meredith's right to enroll and to protect him as he moved to the campus. On the evening of the Meredith's enrollment, President John F. Kennedy spoke to the American people in a live television address.

As Kennedy was speaking, violence broke out on the campus and in Oxford. President Kennedy ultimately ordered federal troops to Oxford to quell the riots which injured over 300 and killed two.

Kennedy's speeches on his position on civil rights rank amongst the most famous in US politics.

Here is some of what JFK had to say about the situation in Alabama when he sent in the National Guard.

This afternoon, following a series of threats and defiant statements, the presence of Alabama National Guardsmen was required on the University of Alabama to carry out the final and unequivocal order of the United States District Court of the Northern District of Alabama. That order called for the admission of two clearly qualified young Alabama residents who happened to have been born Negro.

The heart of the question is whether all Americans are to be afforded equal rights and equal opportunities, whether we are going to treat our fellow Americans as we want to be treated. If an American, because his skin is dark, cannot eat lunch in a restaurant open to the public, if he cannot send his children to the best public school available, if he cannot vote for the public officials who will represent him, if, in short, he cannot enjoy the full and free life which all of us want, then who among us would be content to have the color of his skin changed and stand in his place? Who among us would then be content with the counsels of patience and delay?

One hundred years of delay have passed since President Lincoln freed the slaves, yet their heirs, their grandsons, are not fully free. They are not yet freed from the bonds of injustice. They are not yet freed from social and economic oppression. And this Nation, for all its hopes and all its boasts, will not be fully free until all its citizens are free.

We preach freedom around the world, and we mean it, and we cherish our freedom here at home, but are we to say to the world, and much more importantly, to each other that this is the land of the free except for the Negroes; that we have no second-class citizens except Negroes; that we have no class or caste system, no ghettoes, no master race except with respect to Negroes?

Now the time has come for this Nation to fulfill its promise.

Full text here:

http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/jfkcivilrights.htm


Here is a description of some of the actions in Alamaba -

In 1963, the governor of Alabama was George Wallace. He had run for and won the office on the slogan of "segregation now, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever." In June of 1963, a federal court barred any state government interference with the enrollment of two black students, Vivian Malone and James Hood, at the University of Alabama. Despite this order, Governor George Wallace appointed himself the temporary University registrar and stood in the doorway of the administration building to prevent the students from registering. In response, President Kennedy federalized the Alabama National Guard. One hundred guardsman escorted the students to campus and their commander, General Henry Graham, ordered George Wallace to "step aside." Thus were the students registered.

The photo is of Wallace being confronted at the entrance to the University by Kennedy's federalized National Guard. Wallace was forced to step aside and thus the segregation rule at the University was smashed.

Kennedy submitted his Civil Rights Legislation bill to Congress in June 1963. After he was assassinated Johnson saw its passage through Congress when it became known as The Civil Rights Act 1964.

Latchy

CDfm wrote: »

He was a steel executive, but the bits I picked up have him producing movies and involved in booze during prohibition.

Chairman of the SEC is a fairly big cheese in the capital restructuring of depression era USA and he was king of Wall Street and a FDR associate.

US ambassador to the UK during peace is different to a wartime ambassador.

"Peace in our time" was British PM Neville Chamberlain's policy too and Stalin appeased -so Joe sr was not alone. Ireland "appeased" with neutrality. He was anti-war.

So you can't blame him for appeasement. A bit anti-semetic but he did not bring his sons up to be.

Yes but I recall he was called back to America from his position as ambassador not long after because his strong views , even when war was on the Horizon , was out of touch with the feelings of many in high office .

dave2pvd wrote: »

You have to wonder if Joe was actually responding to an attempt to slight him. Describing him as Irish could well be an attempt to paint him as 'not one of us'. I believe that's what he was railing against - rather than trying separate himself from his Irish heritage.

Quotes need need context. The Kennedys were in the midst of a complex power struggle. You really can't examine what was said in isolation.

Well at that time ,the Irish were still seen as being slightly down a scale on the social ladder so yes it's probably just a response at being got at because of who he was and still in many circles thought of as not really being ' one of us ' .

Exile 1798

CDfm wrote: »

Kennedy used the media in his campaigning and this especially benefitted him versus Nixon who was ugly.

Many people felt Nixon won on radio coverage but lost out on TV.

I saw in a documentary once that Nixon made things worse for himself by refusing make up. TV was still a new experience for candidates. Kennedy however had them cake it on, exaggerating his advantage in the looks department.

I've always wondered though if the difference in polling between the tv viewers who skewed to Kennedy and the radio listeners who gave it to Nixon has something to do with the Conservative v Liberal, young v old divide. Were more of Nixon's constituency listening to the radio and more of Kennedy's watching on tele? Has the looks angle been over sold?

dave2pvd

CDfm wrote: »

Was there substance behind his presidency and other than his assasination what was there ???

What did he actually do ?

As MarchDub outlined, he pressed his boot down on the necks of the segregationists. That alone was probably his most lasting contribution.

Another notable on his resume was The Bay of Pigs Invasion. It was a total embarrassment.

I do think he scored a win in the Cuban Missile Crisis. He appeared to be the right man for the job during that crisis.


In my opinion, Irish media portrayed and still portrays the Kennedy clan as if they are universally popular. The reality is that half of the US had little or no affection for the family. That fact is still true today.

Latchy

Exile 1798 wrote: »

I saw in a documentary once that Nixon made things worse for himself by refusing make up. TV was still a new experience for candidates. Kennedy however had them cake it on, exaggerating his advantage in the looks department.

I've always wondered though if the difference in polling between the tv viewers who skewed to Kennedy and the radio listeners who gave it to Nixon has something to do with the Conservative v Liberal, young v old divide. Were more of Nixon's constituency listening to the radio and more of Kennedy's watching on tele? Has the looks angle been over sold?

Food for thought indeed when you think that Kennedy only beat nixon by 100,000 votes ...which wasn't lost on Kennedy and his administration at all .

With the tv image, Kennedy's crowd exploited it to the max ,he looked more at ease ,had a brighter looking shirt ,looked tanned ( even on black and white tv ) like a movie star and had done his homework to ,answering all the questions Nixon could throw at him with confidence , where as Nixon looked dowdy ,uncomfortable sweaty in appearence ,so image over substance
had as much to do with Kennedy coming out on top in that particular debate than anything .

dave2pvd wrote: »

As MarchDub outlined, he pressed his boot down on the necks of the segregationists. That alone was probably his most lasting contribution.

Another notable on his resume was The Bay of Pigs Invasion. It was a total embarrassment.

The bay of pigs fiasco was something that had already being set in motion by the CIA with Eisenhower still as president but Kennedy, not long as president ,didn't do himself any favours by his indecisions to not fully commit to the situation which alienated him from some sections of the Military /CIA and made him an enemy in many Cubans eyes .It was an embarrassment for sure and he accpted full responsibility for it's failure claiming in private that he was misled on many aspects of the plan but it also showed that Kennedy wasn't going to have his hand forced by anybody , be it Military or CIA and vowed shortly afterwards to '' smash the CIA into a thousend pieces '' .

It was only when Lyndon Johnson became president that the plans to assassinate Castro under Kennedy became known quoting Johson as saying quote '' jesus ..the us goverment has a murder inc going on down in the Carribean '' .

I do think he scored a win in the Cuban Missile Crisis. He appeared to be the right man for the job during that crisis.

His finest hour and he didn't weaken under so much pressure as some other presidents may have done in same circumstances .

In my opinion, Irish media portrayed and still portrays the Kennedy clan as if they are universally popular. The reality is that half of the US had little or no affection for the family. That fact is still true today.

This is very true ,it was only after his assassination that people began to see the other side to JKF instead of the Kennedy ' camelot ' image which was portrayed to the world .

CDfm

LBJ & JFK - did they get on.

LBJ ditched Bobby Kennedy as Attorney General & Jackie supported him (Bobby) in his Democratic Nomination bid.

Are there any indicators of political support - like election results locally and nationally ?

donaghs

Not much in the Jackie O story in the end. Just bits of gossip.

MarchDub wrote: »

Yes, true. I remember Kennedy had to actuality make a statement before Protestant ministers at a breakfast meeting or something where he said that his religion would not impact on his presidency.

Catholicism was still not at all fully accepted in the USA at the time, especially in the bible south.

Kennedy did have to say he waas an American first.
Even Martin Luther Kings father (Snr) said he couldn't vote for a Catholic, but appeared to change his mind after the Kennedy's support for Civil Rights, and personal interest in the safety of the Kings while they were in custody.
http://www.beliefnet.com/News/Politics/2003/11/An-Anti-Catholic-King.aspx

CDfm wrote: »

Joseph Kennedy sr Ambassador to the Court of St James in London 1938 to 40 and Chairman SEC 1935 & 1936. Very respectable.

He was certainly a part of the American Establishment, and a wealthy man. The American elite however was still WASP dominated and he this would have hindered his accepted into American high society.

And "respectable" is a moot point. His extra-marital affairs would be controversial (to those aware of them) to those who have a problem with that sort of thing. He made his initial fortune in the 1920s stock market boom, and there were always be suspicions that he did this through methods like insider trading. Also suspected of being involved in bootlegging. His SEC appointment was mainly a reward for donating funds to Roosevelt's election campaign. Roosevelt when asked why he appointed such a allegedly crooked character to the job said, "it takes one to catch one".
http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2010/jan/23/joe-kennedy-hollywood-sarah-churchwell

CDfm wrote: »

"Peace in our time" was British PM Neville Chamberlain's policy too and Stalin appeased -so Joe sr was not alone. Ireland "appeased" with neutrality. He was anti-war.

US ambassador to the UK during peace is different to a wartime ambassador.

So you can't blame him for appeasement. A bit anti-semetic but he did not bring his sons up to be.

That's true up to the outbreak of war, Sept 1939. He was still ambassador until Nov. 1940. After that point, his appeasement and suspected Nazi sympathies became more of a problem. Worse than that, he had a very defeatist view of Britain in 1940, convinced Germany would win. He also lost public sympathy by fleeing the safety of the English countryside during the Blitz.

MarchDub

donaghs wrote: »

Kennedy did have to say he waas an American first.
Even Martin Luther Kings father (Snr) said he couldn't vote for a Catholic, but appeared to change his mind after the Kennedy's support for Civil Rights, and personal interest in the safety of the Kings while they were in custody.


.

The irony also is that the Catholic Church was one of the few religions in the US that insisted that the miscegenation laws of many southern states - not allowing marriage between the races - were morally wrong. The Catholic Church allowed for such marriages and in order to get around the states' law on the legal issue couples would travel with a Catholic priest to a northern state - or Washington DC - to marry. I personally know one couple who had to do this and still tell the story of their 'adventure' north. The laws covered just about any non-white [including Asian] and white marriage.

MarchDub

CDfm wrote: »

LBJ & JFK - did they get on.

LBJ ditched Bobby Kennedy as Attorney General & Jackie supported him (Bobby) in his Democratic Nomination bid.

Are there any indicators of political support - like election results locally and nationally ?

No they did not get on at all. Robert Kennedy wasn't ditched by LBJ - he resigned as Attorney General in order to run for a seat in the US Senate, which he won.

The feud began in 1960, when Robert Kennedy directed his brother John's successful campaign for the Democratic Presidential nomination. The main competitor, Johnson, the Senate majority leader, raised not only the ''Catholic issue'' but also the health problems of John F. Kennedy, who spent much of the 50's recovering from delicate spinal surgery and who had Addison's disease, an adrenal malfunction that required daily doses of cortisone. As the convention neared, Johnson described his now-robust opponent as a ''little scrawny fellow with rickets'' and other unnamed maladies. The Kennedy camp whispered about the lingering effects of Johnson's 1955 heart attack.

Neither candidate took serious offense at these charges. John Kennedy and Johnson had built a solid working relationship in Congress. Both men accepted the transparent, if sometimes venomous, nature of political campaigns. But Robert Kennedy was different. As a Senate committee aide in the 50's, he had confronted adversaries like Roy Cohn and Jimmy Hoffa with a moral fervor bordering on zealotry. Unlike his older brother, he considered the campaign slurs and insinuations to be personal attacks on his family and his church. ''Jack Kennedy is the first Irish Brahmin,'' a friend explained. ''Bobby is the last Irish Puritan.''

The Robert Kennedy-Lyndon Johnson feud took on a life of its own. With little thought (and for reasons that still are unclear), John Kennedy chose Johnson to be his running mate. When news of this selection enraged key Northern liberals, Robert Kennedy was dispatched to Johnson's hotel suite to persuade him to withdraw. He failed in his task, but did earn Johnson's enmity as a ''grandstanding little runt.''

Things quickly got worse. Johnson rankled the Kennedys by claiming credit for winning margins in Texas and other Southern states that provided the razor-thin Democratic victory in 1960. The Kennedys humbled Johnson, in turn, by denying him a meaningful role in the new Administration. When Johnson drafted a rather audacious executive order giving the Vice President ''general supervision'' of numerous Federal agencies, President Kennedy filed it away. He did treat Johnson respectfully, but the White House inner circle, led by Robert Kennedy, ignored Johnson in public and belittled him mercilessly behind closed doors. A visitor to Robert Kennedy's Virginia estate recalled a gathering at which friends gave Kennedy a Johnson voodoo doll. ''The merriment,'' he wrote, ''was overwhelming.''
In his evenhanded way, Shesol describes Johnson's Vice Presidency as a period of mental torture, fueled by Robert Kennedy's derision and Johnson's inflated expectations of the job. Denied a serious role in Washington, Johnson tried to regain his vitality by globe-trotting at a breakneck pace. Life, he said later, was a blur of ''chauffeurs, men saluting, people clapping. . . . I detested every minute of it.'' While remaining loyal to President Kennedy, he found their private meetings uncomfortable -- and increasingly rare. ''Every time I came into John Kennedy's presence,'' he said, ''I felt like a goddamn raven hovering over his shoulder.''

The President's assassination turned derision into rage. Though neutral observers were impressed by Johnson's compassion in these painful days, Robert Kennedy thought otherwise. It would have been difficult, under the best circumstances, to forget that his brother was murdered in Texas on a political visit Johnson had encouraged. Even worse, from Robert Kennedy's perspective, were rumors Johnson had behaved boorishly on the plane ride back from Dallas. In his anguish, Kennedy seethed at every move the new President made. It was ''quite clear,'' a Cabinet member recollected, that Kennedy ''could hardly countenance Lyndon Johnson sitting in his brother's seat.''

Once in office, Shesol notes, Johnson moved quickly to restore public confidence through a smooth transition of power. To provide stability in the executive branch, he persuaded many Kennedy appointees to remain at their jobs. He also made certain that Robert Kennedy, who resigned as Attorney General in September 1964, would not be his running mate that year. ''I'll quit it first!'' Johnson said. ''I don't want it that much!'' Seeking a political niche apart from White House control, Kennedy ran successfully for a Senate seat from New York. It was in Congress, Shesol writes, that he came into his own. His brother's death seemed to sensitize him to the suffering of others. He spent long hours investigating hunger in the Mississippi Delta, joblessness in the Northern ghettos and squalid conditions in the migrant camps of central California. Though he and Johnson agreed on most domestic issues, the Senator's public presence and personal magnetism easily overshadowed the President at the peak of his political success. As Shesol puts it, Johnson's Great Society ''kindled no passion, just respect; there was no emerging Johnson legend, just a Johnson record.'' Measured against the Kennedy magic, he came up short again.
It was the Vietnam War that turned this private feud into a public brawl. While Shesol is on shaky ground in describing Kennedy's supposed ambivalence about the Vietnam buildup in the early 60's, he does provide a careful critique of his evolving antiwar stance later. As his feelings intensified, Kennedy became a savior to disillusioned Democrats, a politician who expressed the anger and idealism of the New Politics by linking the Vietnam debacle to the racial and generational struggles tearing the nation apart. Shesol is correct, I believe, in claiming that Kennedy's animus shifted from Johnson's personality to his policies after 1964, while Johnson's loathing of the Senator remained a deeply personal matter.

Shortly after Kennedy announced his candidacy for President in 1968, Johnson withdrew from the race. While convinced he could win re-election, the President no longer relished the prize. The White House had become his prison, surrounded by demonstrators chanting Kennedy's name. ''I'm tired of feeling rejected by the American people,'' he said, ''tired of all these personal attacks on me.'' Johnson blamed Kennedy for spreading ''lies'' about him, in league with ''those bomb-throwing . . . fuzzy-headed Georgetown liberals.'' In June 1968, Robert Kennedy was shot by a deranged Arab nationalist in Los Angeles. As the Senator lay dying, Johnson went on national television to express his ''shock'' and ''dismay.'' That evening, Johnson repeatedly phoned the Secret Service to ask if Kennedy had died. He paced the floor for hours, phone in hand, muttering: ''I've got to know. Is he dead? Is he dead yet?''

This, sadly, was not the end of it. Though Johnson promised Kennedy's family to do ''anything I can do to help,'' he delayed their lone request -- to finance a permanent grave site for the Senator at Arlington National Cemetery, next to his brother John's. In 1969, a new President took the appropriate steps. As he signed the final authorization, Richard Nixon, who knew a thing or two about political grudges, must have smiled.

Full text:

http://www.nytimes.com/books/97/10/26/reviews/971026.26oshinkt.html

CDfm

In the sidelines you had some very interesting characters.

LBJ had an interesting past and was not exactly a Texas Oldboy like George Bush -he is described as scotch-irish.

His finest hour

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZaRUca7FyAc

http://www.lbjlib.utexas.edu/johnson/civilrights/civilrights.shtm

George Wallace, the Governor of Texas had his own assasination bid and subsequently recanted his segregationist views.

MarchDub

CDfm wrote: »

In the sidelines you had some very interesting characters.
George Wallace, the Governor of Texas had his own assassination bid and subsequently recanted his segregationist views.

Believe me, Wallace was not on the sidelines. He was in the centre of the whole fray. He was Gov of Alabama, not Texas.
I can clearly remember seeing his 'segregation now...segregation forever' speech on the RTE news at the time. His vitriol went global.
When he became a born-again Christian in the 1970s he recanted his views.

Here's a link to the Alabama archives on Wallace.

http://www.archives.state.al.us/govs_list/g_wallac.html

CDfm wrote: »

LBJ had an interesting past and was not exactly a Texas Oldboy like George Bush -he is described as scotch-irish.

LBJ was much more authentically Texan that Bush ever was. LBJ came from a family of small farmers in Stonewall, Texas. Bush was a poser in that way and was actually the product of New England - born in Connecticut and educated at Yale and Harvard. His grandfather was US Senator from Massachusetts. It was the oil business that took George to Texas. Americans - especially political opponents - frequently pointed to Bush's phony Tex accent and 'rhinestone cowboy' outfits.

CDfm

Civil Rights at home , the US had gotten embtroilled in a mess in Vietnam where the French tried to regain their old colonies. Vietnam may seem far away but Germany was closer to home.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hH6nQhss4Yc

Kennedy's opposite number in Soviet Russia was Nikita Kruskev who had advanced thru the ranks during the Stalin era.

This was a time of conflict.

So how did they get on ?

Latchy

CDfm wrote: »

LBJ & JFK - did they get on.

LBJ wasn't fond of any of the Kennedys and he detested Bobby of which the feeling was mutual but his relationship with JFK was based on him accepting the vice presidency in liu for helping Kennedy get some southern votes . Kennedy looked down his nose at LBJ and kept him on a leash .

CDfm wrote: »

Civil Rights at home , the US had gotten embtroilled in a mess in Vietnam where the French tried to regain their old colonies. Vietnam may seem far away but Germany was closer to home.

If the French defeat wasn't enough to warn off the US before getting bogged down in Vietnam then the writing was on the wall and people in the goverment including some of the military, were warning against gettting involved in Vietnam .Secratary of state Ball was one saying in early 1962 '' if we send hundreds of thousends of American troops in to Vietnam , they will get lost in the jungle and we'll never find them again '' .

Kennedy's opposite number in Soviet Russia was Nikita Kruskev who had advanced thru the ranks during the Stalin era.

This was a time of conflict.

So how did they get on ?

The Vienna summit when Kennedy met Khrushchev is when the old east met young west and Kennedy quickly realised that this man was not going to be swayed by the Kenendy charm .

Khrushchev who was a master of contradictions and bluff ( something Kennedy would soon figure out for himself ) and was not very impressed by the young president knowing that the bay of pigs disaster was still fresh in the mind and had showed Kennedy as being weak .Khrushchev wen't straight for the jugular with his views which when the meetings eventually ended ,left kennedy by his own addmittence feeling that '' Khrushchev had walked all over him '' and came away knowing he needed to up his game in future disccussion .

Kennedys day would soon come with the Cuban Missile crisis and in Berlin with his famous '' Ich Bin Ein Berliner '' speech .