M6 - is the Galway Bypass necessary? (thread split)

Iwannahurl

ei.sdraob wrote: »

You are asking the wrong question, if such an "crisis" occurs then these people would not have a job/education to go to, but then again basic economics is often missing in arguments here

It's a thought experiment. My point is that that arguments for the GCOB are often based on alleged lack of choice, eg people can't walk, cycle or use the bus. It is certainly true that there are barriers to these modes of travel, but it is not tenable to suggest that they are impossible. If a dramatic event occurred tomorrow that made driving impossible or just very very difficult, I think you'd find that people would not be immobilised. They'd find a way to get to their job or education.

That's at the heart of the issue, IMO. At the moment, despite all the complaints, many commuters prefer to use their car, though many dress that up as "need".

ei.sdraob wrote: »

speaking of economics how many jobs are being lost due to the city not being able to grow? people not being able to get around to shops??

"People"? Careful now!

Iwannahurl

ei.sdraob wrote: »

while we are making doomsday style arguments, how will galway survive an asteroid strike? tidal wave?? carmagedon (oh wait)

I swear the doomongery and lack of practicality from "environmentalists" is driving me up the wall, while you are proud of your 10% reduction in CO2 emmisions or whatever 10 more Chinese are rising to middle class (and dumping their bikes for cars) standard of living wiping out your "savings"

You're missing the point, as is Dubhthach who thanked your post but did not acknowledge that the GCOB is itself a "what if" at this point in time.

So are you saying that the Chinese justify the GCOB and Galway's astonishing levels of car use and dependence?

ei.sdraob

Have you actually cycled in Galway? Or used public transport??

I spend years cycling in Galway and would not wish it on worst enemy, unlike Dublin (which was pleasant to cycle on south side of city) in Galway it rains twice more than Dublin, often with galeforce gusts, and it is not flat either, and then there are the bloody roundabouts, why oh why is there a roundabout at terryland?

And of course there are people who work in the factories but have to get home on the west side of town, it is sort of hard nowadays to move home remortgage etc

And yes people do need to get to shops and businesses for an economy to function, was talking to a retailer yesterday who rolled his eyes at the driving rain outside and lack of customers who would not dare to take a trip in such conditions

And then there are people who simply do not have the health to cycle

I am not even going to mention the poor bastards who want to get around galway only to go onto Connemara and the West, for business or tourism

As for buses, they are often overcrowded, smelly and at times/destinations full of certain loud "minority" who make bus commuting a miserable experience for all, and of course they all go in and out of town, no buses going across town

Btw how would you propose to add 2 bus lanes on lets say the quincenteneal bridge? reduce traffic to one lane?? spend enough money widening the bridge spending as much money as the bypass bridge would cost?

"People"? Careful now!

Yes people, people need to also shop and reach recreations not just commute to/from work
We are not all just some automatons in a Green Matrixian utopia were we should all be hooked up to a battery powering the robots
We are people who just want to get on with our lives and are bloody sick of others dictating how we should live and travel our lives

So are you saying that the Chinese justify the GCOB and Galway's astonishing levels of car use and dependence?

1. No I think focusing so much energy and time on cutting CO2 is pointless as the rest of the world does not give a rats arse and want to live their lives, moving people to bycicles only to boast about reduction in CO2 is pointless when the Chinese build a new coal plant every week.

2. do you have any figures to backup your claims about "car dependence" in Galway, and as compared to whom exactly??

ei.sdraob

A question for Iwannahurl are you from Galway? Do you take some perverse pleasure out of suffering of people here??

As seen from your posts here its obvious you are not here

@TheUsual
There is no plan, any attempts at planning in Galway get constantly knocked down by the Green lobby, this bypass should have been build 10 years ago

edit:
I dont know why cyclists are so against they bypass, considering it would take cars out and around the city out of the city, making it safer for cycling

dubhthach

There was also a proposal to build a new bridge beside the Salmon Weir bridge so as to improve flow at this choke point. The idea been that each bridge would carry traffic in one direction and that there would be wider footpaths, cycle lanes.

The reality is that there are simply not enough river crossings, the vast bulk of all commuter traffic is forced onto either the Quincentenarial or Wolfe Tone Bridges.

For example Knocknacarra has about 12k inhabitants let there is no employment in the area (apart from Hibernian offices and some retail), all of these people have to commute generally to east side of city (ballybrit, Parkmore etc.)

TheUsual

ei.sdraob wrote: »

There is no plan, any attempts at planning in Galway get constantly knocked down by the Green lobby, this bypass should have been build 10 years ago

I don't think another bypass is the answer. Free quick buses for short hops and another bridge or two is the answer (in an ideal world).

ei.sdraob wrote: »

I dont know why cyclists are so against they bypass, considering it would take cars out and around the city out of the city, making it safer for cycling

Cycling in Galway is a non-starter (apart from the rain). What if you have a bad heart or leg ?
Cyclists are an angry bunch in my experience .. and yes I own a bicycle.

ei.sdraob

TheUsual wrote: »

I don't think another bypass is the answer. Free quick buses for short hops and another bridge or two is the answer (in an ideal world).



Cycling in Galway is a non-starter (apart from the rain). What if you have a bad heart or leg ?
Cyclists are an angry bunch in my experience .. and yes I own a bicycle.

Well thats the thing if you go to the expense of building a new bridge why not complete a bypass then? The main cost will be the bridge.

There is also an issue of space, there is none next to existing quincenteal bridge due to university buildings (brand new engineering building just poped up there)

TheUsual

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Well thats the thing if you go to the expense of building a new bridge why not complete a bypass then? The main cost will be the bridge.

See you have a proper bypass already, nearly Dublin M50 sized. Trust me once you sort the cause of the problem, you will see congestion drop by half.

ei.sdraob wrote: »

There is also an issue of space, there is none next to existing quincenteal bridge due to university buildings (brand new engineering building just poped up there)

The Government has lots of unemployed people and cheap labour, now is the perfect time to get more bridges up. Maybe they need to slap a CPO (compulsary purchase order) on a site or too but it has been done before. Plus if you look at the M50/M1 interchange in Dublin they used the same space to carry the two roads.

dubhthach

The only viable bridge location is in Menlo which is the site of the bridge for the GCOB. There are no potential crossing points between the Salmon Weir Bridge and the sea, unless you cut a path through the Claddagh and use one of the Claddagh piers to join up with Merchan't road (beside the new museum) -- but that's pie in the sky.

Iwannahurl

ei.sdraob wrote: »

A question for Iwannahurl are you from Galway? Do you take some perverse pleasure out of suffering of people here??

As seen from your posts here its obvious you are not here

@TheUsual
There is no plan, any attempts at planning in Galway get constantly knocked down by the Green lobby, this bypass should have been build 10 years ago

edit:
I dont know why cyclists are so against they bypass, considering it would take cars out and around the city out of the city, making it safer for cycling

Where I'm from is of no relevance to this discussion, and is nobody else's business anyway.

"Suffering"? Do you really mean that? Sitting in our cars is "suffering"?

Iwannahurl

TheUsual wrote: »

I don't think another bypass is the answer. Free quick buses for short hops and another bridge or two is the answer (in an ideal world).

Cycling in Galway is a non-starter (apart from the rain). What if you have a bad heart or leg ?
Cyclists are an angry bunch in my experience .. and yes I own a bicycle.

You might be right in the former, but you are demonstrably wrong with the latter. Galway City is already doing well on the cycling front (thanks to NUIG and GMIT perhaps, as well as community and official efforts).

How many people with bad hearts and bad legs are commuting to work or education every day? BTW, depending on the stage of illness, cycling is a great method of secondary prevention of heart disease.

galwaycyclist

ei.sdraob wrote: »

edit:
I dont know why cyclists are so against they bypass, considering it would take cars out and around the city out of the city, making it safer for cycling

1. The cycle campaign does not have a stated position on the bypass. This is somewhat curious as normally a bypass would be an obvious measure to improve cycling conditions in a city.

2. If those in favour if the bypass want the support of other interest groups then they would want to start putting something on the table. Instead they want to keep the roundabouts, they are opposed to speed management, they oppose permeability improvements and seek to shut down existing access for cyclist and pedestrians, they oppose HGV management, they oppose tackling the one way streets.

In short the intent of the GCOBs proponents appears to be to make the city more dangerous and inconvenient cyclists and pedestrians rather than less.

Why would anyone expect the support of cyclists for that? Its a ludicrous idea.

Zubeneschamali

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Where I'm from is of no relevance to this discussion, and is nobody else's business anyway.

Definitely not from Galway. so.

dubhthach

TheUsual wrote: »

See you have a proper bypass alreay, nearly Dublin M50 sized. Trust me once you sort the cause of the problem, you will see ongestion drop by half.

The M50 is 45km in lenght the GCOB is 21km's this about comparable distance between the "Mad Cow" and the N11.

What more only the section from the M6 to just after the N59 is of Motorway/Type1 dual carriagway standard. All of the route west of this point is of 2+2 standard

If you look at the distance of the "Limerick bypass" (eg. N7 from Annacotty via the tunnel to N18) it's abit short at 17.5km. Obviously Dooradoyle is outside of this ring road so the population within it not hugely different from Galway

Zubeneschamali

galwaycyclist wrote: »

Instead they want to keep the roundabouts, they are opposed to speed management, they oppose permeability improvements and seek to shut down existing access for cyclist and pedestrians, they oppose HGV management, they oppose tackling the one way streets.

I think the bypass is a no-brainer, but I hate galway's roundabouts and I think urban speed limits should be strictly policed everywhere.

I don't care about permeability for cyclists, but I don't oppose it. I think the best HGV control for Galway would be a bypass.

So proponents of the GCOB are not the uniform anti-cycling bloc you imagine.

TheUsual

Iwannahurl wrote: »

You might be right in the former, but you are demonstrably wrong with the latter. Galway City is already doing well on the cycling front (thanks to NUIG and GMIT perhaps, as well as community and official efforts).

Both NUIG and GMIT are within city limits so cycling is not difficult. Try 5km outside the town. Or further.

Iwannahurl wrote: »

How many people with bad hearts and bad legs are commuting to work or education every day? BTW, depending on the stage of illness, cycling is a great method of secondary prevention of heart disease.

Agreed, but you cannot cycle when the doctor says so, or you have a bad knee, foot, or back. Lots of young people can't cycle and cycling will not make them healthier. Without increasing the impact of their problems.

(i have cycled for many years and appreciate the positive benefits - cured my athsma)

TheUsual

dubhthach wrote: »

The only viable bridge location is in Menlo which is the site of the bridge for the GCOB. There are no potential crossing points between the Salmon Weir Bridge and the sea, unless you cut a path through the Claddagh and use one of the Claddagh piers to join up with Merchan't road (beside the new museum) -- but that's pie in the sky.

Okay you are based in Dublin. Imagine a bridge on top of a bridge or road, it has been done before.

Iwannahurl

TheUsual wrote: »

Both NUIG and GMIT are within city limits so cycling is not difficult. Try 5km outside the town. Or further.

Agreed, but you cannot cycle when the doctor says so, or you have a bad knee, foot, or back. Lots of young people can't cycle and cycling will not make them healthier. Without increasing the impact of their problems.

(i have cycled for many years and appreciate the positive benefits - cured my athsma)

Thanks for the last bit.

I did cycle 5 km and more outside the town. Not always fun (though very satisfying compared to driving) but certainly not impossible, as some would like to portray.

What proportion of the commuting population have any level of illness that precludes them from travelling by any means other than the private car?

TheUsual

dubhthach wrote: »

The M50 is 45km in lenght the GCOB is 21km's this about comparable distance between the "Mad Cow" and the N11.

What more only the section from the M6 to just after the N59 is of Motorway/Type1 dual carriagway standard. All of the route west of this point is of 2+2 standard

If you look at the distance of the "Limerick bypass" (eg. N7 from Annacotty via the tunnel to N18) it's abit short at 17.5km. Obviously Dooradoyle is outside of this ring road so the population within it not hugely different from Galway

I don't get your point. Dublin gets huge traffic and has the longest, widest roads in Ireland ?
Of course.

Galway has nowhere near the population, but has some really bad usage of what infrastructure it has. Get rid of the roundabouts, new bridge, park-and-ride, free parking. Sorted.
Talk to your mate who designs Cork traffic because nobody is looking at Galway.

dubhthach

TheUsual wrote: »

I don't get your point. Dublin gets huge traffic and has the longest, widest roads in Ireland ?
Of course.

Galway has nowhere near the population, but has really some bad usage of what infrastructure it has. Get rid of the roundabouts, new bridge, park-and-ride, free parking. Sorted.
Talk to your mate who designs Cork traffic because nobody is looking at Galway.

My point is that the Limerick bypass is of comparable length to the GCOB both also are fairly comparably urban areas though Limerick (within the bypass) is somewhat bigger.

The only viable location for a new bridge in Galway is at Menlo where the GCOB is proposed. To access this you need to build the bypass. there are no other viable locations.

For example between the Quincentential bridge and Salmon Weir you have university on one side and Bog/Retail parks (Suckeen) on the other.

Iwannahurl

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

I think the bypass is a no-brainer, but I hate galway's roundabouts and I think urban speed limits should be strictly policed everywhere.

I don't care about permeability for cyclists, but I don't oppose it. I think the best HGV control for Galway would be a bypass.

So proponents of the GCOB are not the uniform anti-cycling bloc you imagine.

I would have thought the biggest HGV challenge for cyclists and pedestrians woud be on city streets. But I am led to believe that the majority of HGVs are actually through traffic, so would a GCOB (a) remove HGVs and (b) be a big help to cyclists on key city streets?

Not all GCOB proponents are "anti cyclist" and not all cyclists are anti GCOB.

IMO, the issue is one of trust in the "Planners". Galway City Council and others, who proclaim that a main objective of the GCOB is to facilitate sustainable transport within the city once traffic is removed/reduced have shown little interest in implementing universal pro-cycling, pro-walking and pro-PT measures to date. Typically they are hugely resistant to any measures that promote sustainable transport, if such measures offend the car lobby.


Galway City Council don't need a GCOB to implement measures like 30 kph zones, traffic calming, permeable routes, contraflow cycle lanes etc. So what are they waiting for?

Iwannahurl

TheUsual wrote: »

I don't get your point. Dublin gets huge traffic and has the longest, widest roads in Ireland ?
Of course.

Galway has nowhere near the population, but has some really bad usage of what infrastructure it has. Get rid of the roundabouts, new bridge, park-and-ride, free parking. Sorted.
Talk to your mate who designs Cork traffic because nobody is looking at Galway.

Free parking? Where? Why?

Parking, especially the free variety, just creates traffic and causes congestion.

TheUsual

dubhthach wrote: »

The only viable location for a new bridge in Galway is at Menlo where the GCOB is proposed. To access this you need to build the bypass. there are no other viable locations.

For example between the Quincentential bridge and Salmon Weir you have university on one side and Bog/Retail parks (Suckeen) on the other.

I will trust your local knowledge. I still think that Galway has enough bypasses but are badly engineered.

But I still think that using the existing infrastructure, bridges, existing roads, are a possibility. Like a bridge over a bridge.
Although the Green Party will riot.

Iwannahurl

galwaycyclist wrote: »

1. The cycle campaign does not have a stated position on the bypass. This is somewhat curious as normally a bypass would be an obvious measure to improve cycling conditions in a city.

I'd love if this were true.

If the GCOB were really about sustainably improving traffic and transport in Galway City then it would be a no-brainer, as someone said earlier.

However, I think there is sufficient doubt about the way things are done in Galway City to justify some scepticism.

On a broader theme, in the long run more roads do not solve traffic congestion. That is a well-established though usually ignored phenomenon.

I simply don't believe the GCOB proponents when they say that all the promised sustainable transport measures will be implemented in a post GCOB scenario.

Free speeds on urban roads in Galway City are already too high for comfort. Can you imagine what it'll be like when there is less traffic?

The authorities could already tackle the speed problem now if they wanted to. They don't need a GCOB for that kind of intervention, so why isn't it happening and why aren't the GCOB enthusiasts lobbying for such if they care so much about promoting better conditions for cyclists, pedestrians and bus users?

Iwannahurl

TheUsual wrote: »

Although the Green Party will riot.

Will he?

TheUsual

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Free parking? Where? Why?

Parking, especially the free variety, just creates traffic and causes congestion.

Outside the city with frequent buses in and out of town, like the Luas in Dublin.
Where ? Hotels that are empty.
Why ? So the traffic in Galway goes back to a normal small Irish town and not a Dublin nightmare that it is now.

dubhthach

TheUsual wrote: »

I will trust your local knowledge. I still think that Galway has enough bypasses but are badly engineered.

But I still think that using the existing infrastructure, bridges, existing roads, are a possibility. Like a bridge over a bridge.
Although the Green Party will riot.

Well indeed improvements could be made that would improve some traffic flow. For example a overpass on the "Terryland roundabout" has been proposed for years this would cover all traffic coming over the Quincentenial that is going up the Seán Mulvoy road (or going the opposite direction). The problem is that this roundabout can never be made fully grade seperated due to close proximity of buildings etc.

Huge amount of traffic from Knocknacarra (KnocknaTallaght ) get funnelled into the Quincentenial bridge.

If you are driving from Wellpark to Salthill there are no roundabouts, however it can still take 45mins to 1 hour in rush hour (well it did in 2007), all traffic on this root gets funnelled into the Wolfe Tone bridge.

As for local knowledge I haven't lived in Galway since 2007 however I'm a city native and lived, went to university and started my working career there.

TheUsual

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Will he?

Ha ha. Still they kept Fianna Fail in check when they were alive. (not)

TheUsual

dubhthach wrote: »

Well indeed improvements could be made that would improve some traffic flow. For example a overpass on the "Terryland roundabout" has been proposed for years this would cover all traffic coming over the Quincentenial that is going up the Seán Mulvoy road (or going the opposite direction). The problem is that this roundabout can never be made fully grade seperated due to close proximity of buildings etc.

Huge amount of traffic from Knocknacarra (KnocknaTallaght ) get funnelled into the Quincentenial bridge.

If you are driving from Wellpark to Salthill there are no roundabouts, however it can still take 45mins to 1 hour in rush hour (well it did in 2007), all traffic on this root gets funnelled into the Wolfe Tone bridge.

As for local knowledge I haven't lived in Galway since 2007 however I'm a city native and lived, went to university and started my working career there.

I don't live or work there, but I am shocked anytime I go there for work or weekends. The roads are fine, the roundabouts are ridiculous.
But the problem is keeping cars away from Ayre's Square and the 3 bridges.

For such a small population, the traffic is grim.

Iwannahurl

TheUsual wrote: »

Outside the city with frequent buses in and out of town, like the Luas in Dublin.
Where ? Hotels that are empty.
Why ? So the traffic in Galway goes back to a normal small Irish town and not a Dublin nightmare that it is now.

That's Park & Ride, then, not free parking.

In which case, I wonder how a P&R should be funded?

I'd be in favour of making driving into the city to park (esp on streets) more expensive than parking outside. At the moment a large aount of parkig in the city is effectively free, due to a deliberate laissez faire policy on the part of the local authority and AGS.