STOVES questions and answers here(see mod note in post 1)

Stove Fan

dersawazzie wrote: »

A further question which I kind of already know the answer to ! I have seen many manufacturers offering systems for connecting to clay liners , which have 90 degree bends in them and horizontal piece longer than 150mm and a clay adaptor. I have read document J and this seems to contradict these units being up to legislation. How are they selling them as suitable for such situations ?

Unfortunately there is nothing to stop the various non complying pipes/ joins from being sold. It really needs a proper overhaul and training of installers and the public to be made aware of the rules on fluing solid fuel stoves as I see so many that are not to regulations. Even my local pub had a stanley erin installed very recently and there is no hearth infront of the stove just carpet:eek: Was an open fire before. Another had a horizontal run of 20 inches and had smoke coming out when the door was opened. I think stove installers should have mandatory training and sent newsletters of any updates to the regs like gas installers.

Stove Fan:)

heinbloed

Basq wrote:

My mother got a stove recently.. and is wondering what's best to clean the glass? She's tried both cream cleaner (Jif) and windolene but still finds it quite hard work. Is there any specialist product or anything else worth recommending?

Petroleum(Diesel, home heating oil, lamp oil). A very small quantity on a piece of cloth or paper, gently rub the glas, job done.
Use the tissue for fire lighting.

dersawazzie

@Stoves Fan , having looked at my fireplace I don't think a sump adaptor will work. The precast block to the clay liner is like a canopy with no flat surface where it meets the liner (must figure out how to post pictures) I'm assuming I wouldn't face the same problem with a liner adaptor as is the shoulder of the adaptor designed to meet the bottom of the clay liner but miss the precast ? I'm also aware of the upside down joint possiblilty but is this way acceptable ? Apologies for questions but I'm anxious to do it right the first time.

JMSE

Bought an Esse 350GS from 'Flame' in Carlow. Having it installed next week. I've a solid fuel boiler instatller lined up on recommendation. He's putting a 50degree thermostatic switch on the hot pipe and wiring that to the pump to automatically kick the pump in. Goin to backfill vermiculite all around the sides and rear of the boiler to insulate her. Cant wait for 14.7kw from my fireplace as opposed to the old standard open fire with back boiler, what was that in kw anybody know?

Stove Fan

dersawazzie wrote: »

@Stoves Fan , having looked at my fireplace I don't think a sump adaptor will work. The precast block to the clay liner is like a canopy with no flat surface where it meets the liner (must figure out how to post pictures) I'm assuming I wouldn't face the same problem with a liner adaptor as is the shoulder of the adaptor designed to meet the bottom of the clay liner but miss the precast ? I'm also aware of the upside down joint possiblilty but is this way acceptable ? Apologies for questions but I'm anxious to do it right the first time.

A picture would be great:) But if the round liner edges are on show then the ordinary clay adapter would be best. Any joins in the pipe should have the female joints uppermost so any condensate drains back to the stove and not drain down the interior of the pipe and out the join.

Stove Fan:)

dersawazzie

@Stoves Fan , the liner edge is on show but is obviously mortared around the outside so no chance of getting a female joint up around the liner. The adaptor that was available through your link seems to have a built in drain point to take the condensate back into the flue. I can only assume its like an upside down DDD , only not so open. I will have a go at taking a picture and post it. Thanks for your time.

Reyman

Hi Heinbloed,
I take your point that the water removed from the wood needs to be heated a lot higher than 100c

---

to perhaps 300c.
The calculation then for wood at 20c is:
So energy needed is 0.2kg x (300-20) = 56kcals
Conversion factor : 1 kcal = 0.001163 kWh
So energy used = 56 x 0.001163 = 0.065kWh
The energy available from 1 kg of wood containing 20% moisture is then reduced from 4.02kWh to 4.02 - 0.065 = 3.955kWh or by 1.6% ---- a pretty small amount really leaving aside for a moment the damage it may cause to the chimney.

On a separate note I've enclosed an article on the effect of relative humidity /temperature on the moisture content of wood. It makes interesting reading and shows that the final moisture content of dried wood is determined not by temperature but by the relative humidity of the air. In Ireland where winter humidity can average 85-90% -- the moisture content of dried wood may I'm afraid rise from 15% to 25% , just when you want to burn it!
The solution is to bring your wood indoors where the RH is much lower for a while before you burn it

http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fplrn/fplrn268.pdf

heinbloed

Right, Reyman.

Your calculation (which is correct) shows the

potentia

l energy present in the moist timber.
This energy potential is generally desrcibed as the unit for energy followed by the letter small letter p.
In this case that would be ( with the timber at 20%) 3.995kWp.

This is what this type of timber would deliver potentially.
But for realistic conditions to be shown the thermal energy available to the consumer sitting in front of his stove has to be calculated.

And here we have to subtract all thermal energy generated which leaves the building. Via the chimney.
And the more water is in the fuel the more thermal energy must be used to get rid of it.

Take the sample of the water filled cauldron hanging above the fire:

All water being boiled away will carry thermal energy away. To avoid cooling down of the mixed gases (CO2 from the combustion plus water vapour from the cauldron) we have to increase the fuel input to keep the room warm.
To get the same room temperature we either have to take the cauldron from the fire or we have increase the fuel input.

Not only the so wasted energy needs to be funded, payed for but more: the increased ventilation demand as well. Since burning more fuel (creating more smoke and vapour!) demands a higher ventilation rate.
This extra ventilation cools down the fire's thermal energy, the room temperature.
Blowing out a match, a candle: A damp stick just about being able to burn on its own is easier blown out than a dry burning kindling stick.

So more damp fuel ( more kWp) is needed to keep a damp fire smouldering than a dry fire would consume.

As said before the process is non-linear, at about 30% moisture no simple stove will give a self sustained fire.
Despite that this damp timber still holds about 3.8 kWp/kg of energy. Zero thermal output from 30% damp timber.

About the dry storage you have mentioned:

If the dry storage (a room inside the house) is not heated and not ventilated the timber will rot. Builders consider timber at and above 18% moisture as risk material, this type of timber should not be used for loabearing constructions.
An unheated room in the Irish climate has enough relative humidity in the air to cause timber to rot, be it the furnitures or the load bearing construction. There are plenty of houses up and down the country side which can be seen rottening away since they are not heated and ventilated. A Nama 'investment'.
The condition to keep the timber fuel in the ventilated and heated space of the house means further losses of (thermal) energy, the energy balance of such a timber fueled heating system being further reduced.

BlackEdelweiss

What is the best fuel or mix of fuels to burn in a stove? I am burning ecobright now but going through a fortune of it. Should I mix it with logs or turf or something else? I have an inis mean stove with a back boiler.

lilgirl24

I know i'm really jumping on the bandwagon and might sound a bit stupid what with all the technical advice going on here...
I have gas central heating,an empty fire place that is piped for gas,i have no chimney however....could anyone advise me what the best option would be for me here...electric stove or can i get a gas one....do you know if shops etc supply fitters for things like this?

cmat

Stove Fan wrote: »

Aquos76 wrote: »

Does anyone know definitely whats the story with installing a stove insert in a timber surround fireplace? At this stage Ive spoken with so many different people but no one has been able to give me an answer.

This is our fireplace


and Ive been informed that there are special adaptors available to allow me to insert any of the standard insert stoves then, but there is absolutely no mention of timber surrounds



So my question is, If I go down this route will I be able to then put in a stove insert and what would the maximum kw that I should go for. The room I want to heat is 16x13. We are not overly keen on the stove thats in the picture above with the adaptor. As far as Im aware thats a 4kw stove. We are however looking at either of these stoves


San Remo
or The Valentia which is a 7kw



Does anyone have any advice that you can share with me and also, should I consider the stove that included in the adapter picture above. Many thanks.

Hi:) Sorry I don't know what distance the fire has to be from the wooden surround:(. You could send an email to each stove manufacturer or ask the stove dealer to have a look in the installation instructions for clearance to combustibles on each stove.
I would imagine each stove has different clearances. With regards to stove choice it's a personal thing. Fitting an arch plate against your fireplace and fitting either inset stove could be dissapointing. I see there may not be an outlet for heat to escape from the sides/top of the valentia so that in effect you only have the heat from the front of the inset stove. The stove and arch kit would be the easiest option but the heat output may not be great.

4kw should be perfectly adequate or 5kw if the room has bad insulation or a drafty room.

Hope someone on here who has the arch stove kit can advice if it throws out a good heat and was worthwhile doing:)

Your hearth may not be suitable if its over a wooden floor and may crack as its one piece. Normal to fit in 2 pieces. I would get an installer to look. Is it a gas or electric fire? The cast iron arch may not be suitable for solid fuel. An installer should know.

Is removing the surround not an option?


Stove Fan:)

hi i have the same fireplace as u and got a hamco glenbarrow non boiler 6.5kw solid fuel inserted sitting on granite hearth with plate to seal off chimney with sold flue insert and did the job perfect

avfc1874

hi we've recently had a glenmore 20b installed but we were wondering how hot should the rads be, we had a roaring fire on last night but only 4 of the 11 rads had any heat and they were only luke warm. the plumbers calling back tomorrow but we were wondering what heat from the rads we should expect. thanks

Stove Fan

avfc1874 wrote: »

hi we've recently had a glenmore 20b installed but we were wondering how hot should the rads be, we had a roaring fire on last night but only 4 of the 11 rads had any heat and they were only luke warm. the plumbers calling back tomorrow but we were wondering what heat from the rads we should expect. thanks

Hi:) Something is certainly not right as the stove has a 15kw or 53,000btu backboiler and produces 5.5kw to the room.

The rads should be hot. It should run x7 600mm X 1000 double radiators plus hot water at full burn setting on the highest thermostat dial position.

It should achieve this burning well seasoned wood and turf but would have a reduced output if using damp wood. The stove would be KW rated on a solid fuel like anthracite, and may produce less heat by only burning wood. Turf on its own wouldn't give a great heat output. What fuel are you using?

But even if the fuel is damp it should do better than it is.

If we have a constant blazing fire on our boiler stove the rads are untouchable:eek:. We use wood and turf mostly, with sometimes the odd lump of coal, although you shouldn't really burn wood and coal together as it produces sulphuric acid which is corrosive to the flue and stove.

Does the stove/chimney have a good draw and is there a pipe stat to automatically turn the pump on?

Stove Fan:)

Stove Fan

lilgirl24 wrote: »

I know i'm really jumping on the bandwagon and might sound a bit stupid what with all the technical advice going on here...
I have gas central heating,an empty fire place that is piped for gas,i have no chimney however....could anyone advise me what the best option would be for me here...electric stove or can i get a gas one....do you know if shops etc supply fitters for things like this?

An electric stove would be fine. With regards to fitting a gas stove I would get a gas installer in to see whats possible as I couldn't advice if gas is possible without seeing the fireplace. A fireplace shop could also advice after a home visit.

Good luck and keep warm:)

Stove Fan:)

Stove Fan

BlackEdelweiss wrote: »

What is the best fuel or mix of fuels to burn in a stove? I am burning ecobright now but going through a fortune of it. Should I mix it with logs or turf or something else? I have an inis mean stove with a back boiler.

Hi,

You should only burn wood or coal seperately as together it produces sulphuric acid which is corrosive to the flue and stove. Many people do mix fuels but its against advice.

ecobright is a good smokeless fuel and is ideal on stoves. Your stoves user manual/ quide should have a reccommended fuel to use in the stoves user quide and list each one as suitable or not.

It would seem that you can use ordinary smoky coal, see link here, but please email, or phone them to confirm, as most stove manufacturers will void the warranty if using bituminous coal like polish/ premium polish coal.
http://www.inisstoves.ie/index.php/about-us/faqs

This coal is 13 euro for a 40kg bag but is not smokeless and produces a great heat but high soot, and dirties up the glass more:eek:

I would buy a bag of each reccommended fuel and see which is best for heat and economy.:)

Stove Fan:)

Qualitymark

Basq wrote: »

Hey gang,

My mother got a stove recently.. and is wondering what's best to clean the glass? She's tried both cream cleaner (Jif) and windolene but still finds it quite hard work. Is there any specialist product or anything else worth recommending?

Thanks in advance.

If she's burning only wood, the best thing is a handful of ashes. But ashes from anything else will scrape the glass.

With my Clearview the best way to clean the glass, apart from this, is to pull the wood forward in the stove so the heat cleans the glass.

Qualitymark

Stove Fan wrote: »

You should only burn wood or coal seperately as together it produces sulphuric acid which is corrosive to the flue and stove. Many people do mix fuels but its against advice.

Is this also true of wood and turf briquettes, which I normally mix?

heinbloed

Stove Fan wrote:

You should only burn wood or coal seperately as together it produces sulphuric acid which is corrosive to the flue and stove. Many people do mix fuels but its against advice.

The standard coal fire lighting method is to burn timber kindlings and top this fire up with coal. Both are burned together. Since mankind burns coal.

Sulfur is present in both fuels. In small proportions in timber and in comperativly high proportions in coal.
Dilluting the coal fuel with timber fuel will therefore reduce the sulfur emissions from the fire.
This is what is done in some coal power plants to stay within environment legislations (co-firing).

The more 'lifely' the flame the less pollutants are generated in general. But the presence of sulfur in the fuel automatically creates sulfur acid, nothing that can be done about it.

Is there any link to this advice concerning the co-firing creating more sulfuric acid than mono-fuel firing?

Reyman

heinbloed wrote: »

Stove Fan wrote:



The standard coal fire lighting method is to burn timber kindlings and top this fire up with coal. Both are burned together. Since mankind burns coal.

Sulfur is present in both fuels. In small proportions in timber and in comperativly high proportions in coal.
Dilluting the coal fuel with timber fuel will therefore reduce the sulfur emissions from the fire.
This is what is done in some coal power plants to stay within environment legislations (co-firing).

The more 'lifely' the flame the less pollutants are generated in general. But the presence of sulfur in the fuel automatically creates sulfur acid, nothing that can be done about it.

Is there any link to this advice concerning the co-firing creating more sulfuric acid than mono-fuel firing?

My instinct tells me that the water from the wood (H2O) and the sulphur from the coal (S) together with Oxygen (O) is combining to form Sulphuric acid (H2SO4)!

heinbloed

Yes, that could be the case. But coal contains water as well, on it's own (H2O) as well as in the form of present carbon hydrogene (CH).....
And the combustion air ads water (air moisture) to the fire as well.

It would be interesting to see some charts,some meassurements.

From what I've heard there is very little sulfur present in the smoke from timber fires, bio-fuel powerplants using timber have hardly any problems with air pollution legislations concerning sulfur (-dioxide).

bakerlite

I have a few questions re my stove - I am heading into the second winter with it but would like to see if i can optimise the running of it a bit to save a bit on fuel as it is our only source of heating (runs the rads)

It is a Hercules 30B 30Kw/102,000BTU multifuel stove with 2 air vents on the front bottom for standard draw - one on the side for burn off of unburnt gasses? and one middle front top (all this seams to do is send more heat up and out the chimney and show a bit of flame in the window so i never open it) I usually have the side vent open (its a flap so all or nothing) the top closed and the bottom open just enough to keep the fire red without roaring.

Though it is ill advised I cant seem to beat the heat of having a small shovel of coal in with the wood as it seems to help the burn go better.

The draw of the chimney is excellent - I am worried too good - maybe this is why we use SO much fuel! I mean if burning coal you would be looking at 20 KG a day.....

as we are not millionaires we use wood which is pretty dry and the small bit of coal to help it along.

So my questions!

1) Is a flue thermometer and a flue damper a good investment - I worry this is the missing link on my current arrangement - ?

2) I have a very large loop of rads - so if i set the stat to 50 it takes 2-3 hours for the loop to come up to temp as the volume of water cools off by the time it gets back to the stove - if i set it for 40 it gets the pump on constant sooner but as you well know in this scenario there is less heat in the rads given off over the night - I cant seem to find a happy medium?

3)Any tips on getting the Fuel to last longer

As i said - its a BIG loop and a BIG stove - so i am well aware it will never be cheap to run but any tips on optimsing the use of the stove and the running of the loop gratefully accepted!

Cheers

JMSE

Too much info tbh in the last page or two. I'm starting to feel Catholic guilt about ever lighting a fire again, and lets face it, we are on the Northern Hemisphere in damp Ireland in a $h1tty recession and theres a high chance that people are gonna need to burn whatever bit of timber they are lucky to get to stay warm (just like their fathers and their fathers before them). So roll on next Tuesday and my Esse inset boiler being fitted

Stove Fan

bakerlite wrote: »

I have a few questions re my stove - I am heading into the second winter with it but would like to see if i can optimise the running of it a bit to save a bit on fuel as it is our only source of heating (runs the rads)

It is a Hercules 30B 30Kw/102,000BTU multifuel stove with 2 air vents on the front bottom for standard draw - one on the side for burn off of unburnt gasses? and one middle front top (all this seams to do is send more heat up and out the chimney and show a bit of flame in the window so i never open it) I usually have the side vent open (its a flap so all or nothing) the top closed and the bottom open just enough to keep the fire red without roaring.

Though it is ill advised I cant seem to beat the heat of having a small shovel of coal in with the wood as it seems to help the burn go better.

The draw of the chimney is excellent - I am worried too good - maybe this is why we use SO much fuel! I mean if burning coal you would be looking at 20 KG a day.....

as we are not millionaires we use wood which is pretty dry and the small bit of coal to help it along.

So my questions!

1) Is a flue thermometer and a flue damper a good investment - I worry this is the missing link on my current arrangement - ?

2) I have a very large loop of rads - so if i set the stat to 50 it takes 2-3 hours for the loop to come up to temp as the volume of water cools off by the time it gets back to the stove - if i set it for 40 it gets the pump on constant sooner but as you well know in this scenario there is less heat in the rads given off over the night - I cant seem to find a happy medium?

3)Any tips on getting the Fuel to last longer

As i said - its a BIG loop and a BIG stove - so i am well aware it will never be cheap to run but any tips on optimsing the use of the stove and the running of the loop gratefully accepted!

Cheers

Hi:) How many rads are you running? 2-3 hours to get fully warm seems excessive:( Are the pipes buried in concrete and are they insulated? With regards to the damper if you close all the air vents does the stove go to a slumber and the flames diminish? If they do I would say a damper isn't needed. If the fire still burns fast there is air leakage. Check the door seals and see if you can see a glow of the fire through them. View sideways on. If seals are good but still burning fast a damper is an option.

A good test is to close the doors onto a sheet of newspaper and try to gently pull it out. If it pulls out easily the seals need replacing or the doors adjusted on models that are adjustable.

Do you have thermostatic radiator valves fitted on the rooms that are not used as much as this would reduce the load. You can set them so it takes the chill off the room but not fully heated.

I don't run my stove heating overnight as I would roast:eek: but our house is smallish 107sqm and fairly well insulated. I take it the house is an older property or you feel the cold:)

Your coal consumption doesn't seem to bad as we can use between 40kg-70kg a week in the very cold spell heating 10kw of rads. Yours sounds a large number of radiators. We only have 5 rads and hot water. We have ours lit 13 hours a day in the cold weather and weather like today from 2pm onwards. We used 50 40kg bags over 7 months last winter. Unless your wood is very cheap I think coal would be cheaper to run. We pay 62 euro a cubic metre for spruce pine logs:eek: We like the wood though as it's cleaner but dearer than the coal.
Some of the smokeless may be worth a try.
If the stove manufacturers approve. try premium polish coal. We used this all last winter. 13 euro a 40kg bag.

Stove Fan:)

Stove Fan

Qualitymark wrote: »

Is this also true of wood and turf briquettes, which I normally mix?

Turf and wood together is fine apparently:D We are using this mix this winter although do chuck on the odd lump of coal on.


Stove Fan:)

Reyman

JMSE wrote: »

Too much info tbh in the last page or two. I'm starting to feel Catholic guilt about ever lighting a fire again, and lets face it, we are on the Northern Hemisphere in damp Ireland in a $h1tty recession and theres a high chance that people are gonna need to burn whatever bit of timber they are lucky to get to stay warm (just like their fathers and their fathers before them). So roll on next Tuesday and my Esse inset boiler being fitted

Which are you putting in JMSE - the esse 300 or the 350?
Is a chimney liner needed?

cocoman

Hi all.
I have a gas fire which I want to replace with a multifuel stove. The stove will be placed in an ope approx 650 high and 580 wide (open on front and back). I'm looking at the Aarrow acorn (5kw) 495h*385w made of steel and the Stanley Oisin (6.4 kw) 535h*380w cast iron. It's an open plan room so the higher kw would be better but I would be grateful for any views on either of these two stoves or indeed any other suggestions. Thanks.

Lanshane

Reyman wrote: »

Which are you putting in JMSE - the esse 300 or the 350?
Is a chimney liner needed?

Correct me if I am wrong, but there is no such thing as an Esse 300 stove, but rather a series of stoves in the Esse 300 ‘range’. For example, there are the Esse 301 and 350 stoves, all in the 300 ‘range’ Am I correct on this?
We bought the Esse 301 Inset stove (5Kw) 2 years ago and have not looked back. It heats a big room very well indeed. We have noticed a big improvement in heat in other rooms also since we installed the stove. I hate to think of the amount of heat we lost up the chimney before we installed and sealed the fireplace with this inset stove.
We did not install a flue, and it wasn’t mentioned that we had to either. However, we do live in an exposed area, with a fantastic (Too good) draw. I felt however that we were going through more fuel than we had to so I installed an ‘aerocowl’ which has made the heat output even better! The cowl has stabilized the draw in all weather conditions, resulting in more heat and less fuel!
We burn a mixture of turf/Ecobrite extra/briquettes and a bit of timber when a tree falls!I was strongly advised not to use Polish coal for this stove, or any closed appliance for that matter. I swept the chimney this year and collected just over a tray of dry soot, very clean for the amount of burning done. A great stove me thinks.

whitelightrider

Hi folks,

I have a stove installed in my sitting room, with a flexi flue going from the back of the stove into the chimney. Its approximately 1 meter into the chimney.
There is nothing around where the flue goes into the chimney and a friend mentioned that it might need to be sealed to stop any smoke getting back into the room.

But what can I do to seal around this?

Stove Fan

cocoman wrote: »

Hi all.
I have a gas fire which I want to replace with a multifuel stove. The stove will be placed in an ope approx 650 high and 580 wide (open on front and back). I'm looking at the Aarrow acorn (5kw) 495h*385w made of steel and the Stanley Oisin (6.4 kw) 535h*380w cast iron. It's an open plan room so the higher kw would be better but I would be grateful for any views on either of these two stoves or indeed any other suggestions. Thanks.

Unfortunately for building regulations you need 300mm clearance above the stove:( and 150mm either side of the stove, which is fine. These gaps are to allow air to circulate and stop the stove from overheating or if cast iron its at risk of cracking the stove.

If you had a deep enough hearth you could fit the stove in front of the opening:) Morso squirrel, dunsley highlander 5. Woodwarm fireview and Aarrow ecoburn 5 are possibles. The first three are very very good make.

You say its a fireplace thats open on either side? Would it be possible to raise the height of the fireplace? I would then fit a double sided stove like a woodwarm fireview range or enigma.

If you were not bothered about being double sided I would seriously consider an inset stove and seal the other side of the fireplace up.

Stove Fan:)

Stove Fan

whitelightrider wrote: »

Hi folks,

I have a stove installed in my sitting room, with a flexi flue going from the back of the stove into the chimney. Its approximately 1 meter into the chimney.
There is nothing around where the flue goes into the chimney and a friend mentioned that it might need to be sealed to stop any smoke getting back into the room.

But what can I do to seal around this?

Yes the flue should be sealed, so don't use the stove due to the possibility of carbon monoxide poisoning.

Could you take a few photos of your fireplace and flue pipe and how it goes into the chimney. Or if you don't have a camera a description.

Stove Fan:)