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Unfortunately The Police service in UK and AGS in ROI is being run like a business now, figures, numbers, bottom line, management out of touch with members on core Police front line duties.
Im ex-Police UK, made the move back home to Dublin a few years back.
I can see AGS going down the route of UK Police forces with more Civilanisation.
This was mentioned many years ago in a report on AGS, think it may have been called the Strategic Management Initiative, ex- Commissioner Byrne.
We had Specials in UK similiar to Reserve here, that said most of them used to be left in the mess room and no-one would want to work with them.
On a positive note I see AGS are getting new vehicles, Ford won the contract over BMW's offer.
I like the new silver colour over white anyday, similiar to Met in UK.
Did anyone else hear that the BMW tender was actually cheaper but they didn't go with it because they feel it sends out the wrong message to the public as in we are in a recession and the state are splashing out on BMWs.0 -
Qwerty Dub wrote: »Did anyone else hear that the BMW tender was actually cheaper but they didn't go with it because they feel it sends out the wrong message to the public as in we are in a recession and the state are splashing out on BMWs.
that was true back in 2007 anyways. the problem with the new tender is its mostly focus diesels, transit connects and not mondeos. plus the bmw's are customised for policing duties. the fords are the exact same as in the showroom. only they rip out the am/fm radio and fit lights. they are only replacing about a third of what they have removed over the past few years anyways.
honestly i couldnt give a damn about this job anymore. i clock in and clock out thats it. minimal effort for minimal pay. if i could get a job elsewhere id be gone in the morning0 -
audidiesel wrote: »that was true back in 2007 anyways. the problem with the new tender is its mostly focus diesels, transit connects and not mondeos. plus the bmw's are customised for policing duties. the fords are the exact same as in the showroom. only they rip out the am/fm radio and fit lights. they are only replacing about a third of what they have removed over the past few years anyways.
honestly i couldnt give a damn about this job anymore. i clock in and clock out thats it. minimal effort for minimal pay. if i could get a job elsewhere id be gone in the morning
Yeah I had heard the BMWs were police spec. Seems like a no brainer to me.
Unfortunately your opinion of the job seems to be like many others. Its a shame it has got that far. I would hate to think that some members of our police force are vulnerable to an approach from certain people given how unhappy they are & how short on money they are.0 -
audidiesel wrote: »honestly i couldnt give a damn about this job anymore. i clock in and clock out thats it. minimal effort for minimal pay. if i could get a job elsewhere id be gone in the morning
Meanwhile in Australia
NSFW
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Potential-Monke wrote: »more of the population starting to hate you
Don't take this the wrong way, but as a law-abiding, tax-paying, upstanding member of society (never had so much as a parking ticket), the reason I dislike the guards is that I've met one too many of them who seem to find it worth their while to waste their time harassing me for no good reason.
It also makes me question the 'lack of resources' line. Some of the nonsense I've had from guards in my time is ridiculous.
I have huge sympathy for front-line workers and I can only imagine the ****e you have to put up with every day. But you don't do yourselves any favours sometimes.0 -
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goldie fish wrote: »The cost to the state for the DF is miniscule, given what they provide.
my point was that given what they provide, its a lot of money...goldie fish wrote: »They have been a very valuable asset to have protecting AGS for many years.
protection? yeah i'd admit they have been a good "aide to the civil power" when called upon, as AGS aren't given the resources to protect ourselves from certain aspects that criminals can engage with, but, and again no disrespect to the PDF members, but, if I do required armed assistance its the likes of the RSU and ERU that i'd rather be relying on providing assistance, it's Irish soil, you don't see the British Army giving armed assistance to the MET? or the US Army assisting the NYPD? the "protection" that the army provide should not be provided by soldiers, soliders are trained how to shoot, policemen are trained why to shoot and when not to shoot, and don't cost a fraction of what the recent bill the Dept.of Defence picked up.
My point is that the setup is wrong and funding is being allocated where it isn't needed, or at least needed as badly as where it is needed
anyway i tried to mention as much as i can that i mean no offence to the PDF as the job they do do is sound, so i apologise if i have offended you..0 -
Do you not remember the convoys of Scimitar CVRTs entering Heathrow to protect it after 9/11? And due to the legal differences, the US army do not deploy in a comparable ATCP role, as that is what the US National Guard do. You'll find many occasions in recent history when the NG deployed to assist local law enforcement.my point was that given what they provide, its a lot of money...
protection? yeah i'd admit they have been a good "aide to the civil power" when called upon, as AGS aren't given the resources to protect ourselves from certain aspects that criminals can engage with, but, and again no disrespect to the PDF members, but, if I do required armed assistance its the likes of the RSU and ERU that i'd rather be relying on providing assistance, it's Irish soil, you don't see the British Army giving armed assistance to the MET? or the US Army assisting the NYPD? the "protection" that the army provide should not be provided by soldiers, soliders are trained how to shoot, policemen are trained why to shoot and when not to shoot, and don't cost a fraction of what the recent bill the Dept.of Defence picked up.
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The Irish defence forces are also trained when and why to shoot. You seem to assume they are trigger happy robots. How much do you think it would cost to train 9000 gardai to shoot to the standard of the Defence forces? After you have done that, how much will it cost you to train the Gardai to operate their own helicopters, and naval fleet? Remember you still need to be able to protect out waters up to 500 miles off the west coast.
Again your post reveals your ignorance of wha tthe defence forces do, and an even greater ignorance of what the Gardai do. You cannot compare like with like. Its Apples and Toblerones.0 -
goldie fish wrote: »Do you not remember the convoys of Scimitar CVRTs entering Heathrow to protect it after 9/11? And due to the legal differences, the US army do not deploy in a comparable ATCP role, as that is what the US National Guard do. You'll find many occasions in recent history when the NG deployed to assist local law enforcement.
The Irish defence forces are also trained when and why to shoot. You seem to assume they are trigger happy robots. How much do you think it would cost to train 9000 gardai to shoot to the standard of the Defence forces? After you have done that, how much will it cost you to train the Gardai to operate their own helicopters, and naval fleet? Remember you still need to be able to protect out waters up to 500 miles off the west coast.
Again your post reveals your ignorance of wha tthe defence forces do, and an even greater ignorance of what the Gardai do. You cannot compare like with like. Its Apples and Toblerones.
Ah stop will ya, I am not having a go at the Defence Forces or the role they provide, i've said that, my issue is the huge resources that went into boosting the toblerones would be of much better benefit when the country is crying out for apples!!!
Granted in the case of a 9/11 scenario I would expect soldiers on the street, but lets assume i'm talking about the other 99.9% of the time... I accept that the Naval Service are crucial in their work off the coast and the Aer Corps do a fantastic job flying the Garda aircraft and Coast Guard's (I think?) and the Army do a great job on overseas protection and the likes of EOD, and CIT escorts etc...
My point was not anti - defence forces, it was asking why a huge funding boost, why now, when their workload hasn't necessarily increased over the last few years to the scale of the great demands placed on other services
when that funding, as preciously rare as funding is this days, other organisations that are consistently having to perform in a more-for-less scenario day in day out all over the country, not just in small exercises and duties
And I never once suggested training all Gardaí in shooting?!?
I think you're taking my point up completely wrong, again, i'm not having a go at the PDF, just the decision to pump money into it thats more desperately needed elsewhere, not just AGS, but Hospitals, Ambulance and Fire Services...0 -
I know you aren't having a go.
The rescources are scarce and everyone wants their fair share. What you have missed however is that the Defence vote, when Pay and pensions are excluded is in the order of about 200m per year. If you take it away from defence, you will only ending up spending it elsewhere to have another agency do the job Defence used to do. Take for example SAR. When they stopped investing in SAR aircraft for the Air Corps, a private civilian company was hired to do the job instead. Where the Air Corps managed their best with poor funding, once the Private operator took over there was apparently no limit on the public purse. So we now have a situation where the Government gives a private company €500m to buy a new machine, that had it been done properly, the air corps would have been operating in the role after purchasing 3 helis for €40m in 2002. But they messed that up, and we are where we are.
The air corps have no role whatsoever in flying Coast guard helicopters, however they do operate the 2 fixed wing search aircraft, the Casa. They also operate the air ambulance helicopter. Another role which a civilian operater has as yet failed to offer for a reasonable cost.
They have had no "huge funding boost" since the armoured personell carriers were bought, and that was in 2001. All purchases since have been made via savings in their allocated budget, which has been reduced every year since 2001.0 -
Deleted User wrote: »Don't take this the wrong way, but as a law-abiding, tax-paying, upstanding member of society (never had so much as a parking ticket), the reason I dislike the guards is that I've met one too many of them who seem to find it worth their while to waste their time harassing me for no good reason.
It also makes me question the 'lack of resources' line. Some of the nonsense I've had from guards in my time is ridiculous.
I have huge sympathy for front-line workers and I can only imagine the ****e you have to put up with every day. But you don't do yourselves any favours sometimes.
Not making excuses, but for everyone 1 of those Gardai, there are hundreds upon hundreds of others who are not like that. You don't see them because they're not hassling you. In every job you will have the people who are wasters, doing the easy stuff and on power trips. That includes the Gardai. But they are the ones you see. You don't the the thousands of other Gardai who are busting their balls to keep the name of the force in good standing. But it doesn't matter how hard they do it, all it takes is 1 bollix to ruin it for everyone else.
Just like you rarely hear of the Garda who risked his life to save people from a burning building (which is a very regular occurrence), or the Garda who successfully stopped yet another violent domestic situation, or public order incident, before matters got worse. But you will hear of nearly every incident where someone was assaulted by a Garda.
I constantly tell people that if they're treated unfairly by a Garda to report them. They are making my life, and the life of the high majority of other members, that much harder. I deliberately go out of my way to ensure that every action i take does not make me look like a bully, or someone on a power trip. Unfortunately, that now includes not doing as much as i would have been doing only 2 years ago (as in pro-active policing - don't have time for it now).
There are literally thousands of incidents which Gardai respond to each year, but the media covers a minuscule fraction of the good stories, and every bad story. It makes it look like we're nothing but power mad bullies with nothing better to do, when the opposite is fact. Good news doesn't sell. Scandal does. We're constantly reminded, by management and media, that the slightest cock up could result in jail time for us, as as we are Gardai we should have known better, but when we're assaulted it's expected as part of the job. Double standards completely against us, is it any wonder we just don't care anymore?0 -
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coolhandluke wrote: »What do you expect when you are dealing with this Grade A spoofer.....
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/shatter-hits-out-at-those-stuck-in-policing-past-3308937.html
How many frontline members has he ever really talked to ? All down through the ages i'm sure generals have said their troops are just fine.....
As a non-Garda reading through some of the posts here,I can't help wondering if the decision to retain Commissioner Cullinan in the circumstances was'nt a flawed one ?
I'm actually wondering if the entire process of selecting the Commissioner should be reviewed,firstly to move towards a Competency focused selection and secondly to a younger age profile ?
From what I can glean,the ordinary "poor bloody garda" is adrift within a leaderless force....is this accurate ?
Whilst I can see huge difficulties currently existing within the force I am also more than certain that at some stage,some Government will have to appoint a Minister for Justice with enough interest and focus to ask searching questions of his/her Senior Departmental Officials,who,AFAICS,retain a very firm grip on Law Enforcement procedures in Ireland.
How any Minister or Departmental Official can stand over this sort of Court antics is beyond me..
The convict only pleads guilty to Manslaughter on the morning of his trial,but I struggle to comprehend how this individual perpretated anything other than Slaughter on his victim.
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/courts/thug-gets-13-years-in-jail-for-beating-teen-like-a-rag-doll-until-he-died-3333698.htmlA witness told gardai she saw Ward “bouncing” Mr Dorr's head off the road up to ten times and kicking him in the head a number of times. She said Mr Dorr was “like a rag doll and was totally unresponsive.”
Another witness gave a graphic account to gardai, saying it was a “continuous beating with vicious kicking and punching.”
A third witness said he saw a “fella on the ground who looked like he was lifeless and a man kicking and stomping on his head.” He said Ward was “banging” Mr Dorr's head off the wheel of a parked car. Ward constantly denied to gardai he was at the scene, despite his DNA being found on a cigarette found at the scene and his DNA on Mr Dore's T-shirt.Mr Justice Carney sentenced Ward to 16 years with the final three years suspended and ordered that Ward undergo 18 months’ post-release supervision and to keep away from the Dorr family.
Judge Carney has been very forthright concerning how his sentencing options are seriously restricted by the inexplicable and hugely contentious decisions of the Supreme Court in relation to sentencing.
I am also very curious as to why Judge Carney would find it necessary to include the "Keep Away" stricture in the judgement,something which will always fall to the Gardai to monitor and implement.
This case,and many others all go towards making me feel very uncertain that the Irish State has enough regard for it's law abiding citizens,and those working to support and protect them.
I truly believe that Leadership and Committment at the Top is notably lacking.Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.
Charles Mackay (1812-1889)
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This case,and many others all go towards making me feel very uncertain that the Irish State has enough regard for it's law abiding citizens,and those working to support and protect them.
I truly believe that Leadership and Committment at the Top is notably lacking.
Ireland is no different from the United Kingdom in that respect.0 -
Last year I could not have read this thread as it was too depressing but now that I am retired since November it is a bit easier but still hard. I identify with all the comments stated here and they reflect the general position of most gardai. I was a sergeant and in particular I think the position of sergeants in the force today is dire.
Most Gardai get paid more than sergeants now as Gardai are sent to various places now and again and can claim allowances wheras Sergeants mainly are stuck in their local station. Similarly any overtime that is going will mainly go to gardai.
Sergeants are now so overloaded with responsibility it is beyond the possible. All responsibility has been removed from Gardai and landed on the sergeants lap who get abused by gardai, inspectors and superintendents alike with no support whatsoever.
The attitude of some junior gardai is also a cause of despair - many are indifferent to the concerns of the public and not too bothered if they don't get their paperwork right or sent in on time.
the new shift arrangements are a nighmare and we have to put up with all this for less money - no thanks. I gladly walked out the door - something I always thought would be very hard for me as I used to enjoy the job until the last few years.0 -
Alfasudcrazy wrote: »Last year I could not have read this thread as it was too depressing but now that I am retired since November it is a bit easier but still hard. I identify with all the comments stated here and they reflect the general position of most gardai. I was a sergeant and in particular I think the position of sergeants in the force today is dire.
Most Gardai get paid more than sergeants now as Gardai are sent to various places now and again and can claim allowances wheras Sergeants mainly are stuck in their local station. Similarly any overtime that is going will mainly go to gardai.
Sergeants are now so overloaded with responsibility it is beyond the possible. All responsibility has been removed from Gardai and landed on the sergeants lap who get abused by gardai, inspectors and superintendents alike with no support whatsoever.
The attitude of some junior gardai is also a cause of despair - many are indifferent to the concerns of the public and not too bothered if they don't get their paperwork right or sent in on time.
the new shift arrangements are a nighmare and we have to put up with all this for less money - no thanks. I gladly walked out the door - something I always thought would be very hard for me as I used to enjoy the job until the last few years.
It's a thankless job from those I see in it. The skipper is the meat in the sandwich, strenghting the **** that goes up and softening the **** that comes down. Best of luck in retirement.0 -
Alfasudcrazy wrote: »Sergeants are now so overloaded with responsibility it is beyond the possible. All responsibility has been removed from Gardai and landed on the sergeants lap who get abused by gardai, inspectors and superintendents alike with no support whatsoever.
The attitude of some junior gardai is also a cause of despair - many are indifferent to the concerns of the public and not too bothered if they don't get their paperwork right or sent in on time.
the new shift arrangements are a nighmare and we have to put up with all this for less money - no thanks. I gladly walked out the door - something I always thought would be very hard for me as I used to enjoy the job until the last few years.
Congratulations on the retirement. Sad to see a senior member go, but understandable and is something i would do if i was in the same position.
But, and i want to bring the highlighted part to attention, i can honestly say I have not seen that carry on where i'm stationed. I've seen Garda rank stand up for themselves more than usual, but it also goes both ways. In particular, 2 Sergeants who i've had the displeasure of working under would have been fired ages ago for bullying, with brass completely (and to some extent, the GRA) ignoring the facts. A unit is as good as it's Sergeant, and with a bad Sergeant you'll have a bad unit. And it has a knock on effect, meaning if the same unit get a good Sergeant it will be hard for that Sergeant to control the unit and get it back to being good.
What we need is a cohesive force, one that will stand together. As it stands, we have a serious "Us Against Them" attitude. Gardai given extra work and less time to investigate, resulting in reprimands and reduced care/morale on the member involved. Sergeants overloaded with work and the "Sh!t flows down" attitude, plus members of Sergeant rank only interested in promotion and will do anything/screw over the unit to get it. Inspectors who seem to have forgotten what it's like to be on the frontline, and again only interested in self preservation/promotion. Super/Chief ranks who live in the same world as Judges and care only about stats over the safety of their members. The GRA/AGSI who are limited by what they can do. Is it any wonder the moral is, what i thought was at, rock bottom, but it still seems to be getting worse.
I don't know the solution, but it starts on the ground. If you can't get the frontline members on board, then nothing else will work out. 60 hour weeks was a stupid idea, and 60 hours is the minimum, with members being caught at the end of a shift, court on days off, etc. And with the crossover we were promised that time to investigate our own incidents, and instead bass now have these great ideas which makes more work and even less time for the members to carry out their duties. To tell you the truth, i'm sick sh!t of it, and as previously stated if i could go, i would.0 -
Potential-Monke wrote: »Congratulations on the retirement. Sad to see a senior member go, but understandable and is something i would do if i was in the same position.
But, and i want to bring the highlighted part to attention, i can honestly say I have not seen that carry on where i'm stationed. I've seen Garda rank stand up for themselves more than usual, but it also goes both ways. In particular, 2 Sergeants who i've had the displeasure of working under would have been fired ages ago for bullying, with brass completely (and to some extent, the GRA) ignoring the facts. A unit is as good as it's Sergeant, and with a bad Sergeant you'll have a bad unit. And it has a knock on effect, meaning if the same unit get a good Sergeant it will be hard for that Sergeant to control the unit and get it back to being good.
What we need is a cohesive force, one that will stand together. As it stands, we have a serious "Us Against Them" attitude. Gardai given extra work and less time to investigate, resulting in reprimands and reduced care/morale on the member involved. Sergeants overloaded with work and the "Sh!t flows down" attitude, plus members of Sergeant rank only interested in promotion and will do anything/screw over the unit to get it. Inspectors who seem to have forgotten what it's like to be on the frontline, and again only interested in self preservation/promotion. Super/Chief ranks who live in the same world as Judges and care only about stats over the safety of their members. The GRA/AGSI who are limited by what they can do. Is it any wonder the moral is, what i thought was at, rock bottom, but it still seems to be getting worse.
I don't know the solution, but it starts on the ground. If you can't get the frontline members on board, then nothing else will work out. 60 hour weeks was a stupid idea, and 60 hours is the minimum, with members being caught at the end of a shift, court on days off, etc. And with the crossover we were promised that time to investigate our own incidents, and instead bass now have these great ideas which makes more work and even less time for the members to carry out their duties. To tell you the truth, i'm sick sh!t of it, and as previously stated if i could go, i would.
Well said PM but I disagree with one point, it doesn't need to start on the ground. It starts at the top.
There are no bad troops. There are only bad leaders. - Brigadier General S.L.A. Marshall0 -
Well said PM but I disagree with one point, it doesn't need to start on the ground. It starts at the top.
There are no bad troops. There are only bad leaders. - Brigadier General S.L.A. Marshall
No offence but general Marshall must have been a long way from the front line, there are plenty of bad troops being carried by good ones on every unit!0 -
Pappa Charlie wrote: »No offence but general Marshall must have been a long way from the front line, there are plenty of bad troops being carried by good ones on every unit!
The better the leadership, the less of them there would be.0 -
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