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Emergancy Services Morale
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11-09-2011 11:14am#1im just wondering how any current/retired members of the emergancy services are feeling about their profession at the moment and what they think the short to mid term future will be like.
i can only speak for my own experience in the guards but personally ive always wanted to be a guard and up until a year ago was very happy in that career. sadly with changes that have come in the good days feel rarer and the bad days more common.
management seem to be getting so petty its ridiculous. theres a short term vision only.
most people agree that we're going to go down to about 10,500 total by february. i dont think the impact of thats fully understood. i really dont see how the system can function after this.
theres no recruitment starting till 2013 at the earliest. plus the procurement and checks etc take about a year. so say 2014 till templemore opens. at that stage there will probably be less that 10,000 guards serving. (im not including reserves, and theres no offence meant by that).
response times are going to go through the roof. people already bitch that it took an hour for a car to come out to them. i can see that being a good response time nearly in 6 months.
your going to get overworked and underpaid members going **** it why should i bother. the service will suffer as a result. guards wont have time to do follow ups as they will be straight to another call. expect much fudging of figures in the future.
the force will become purely responsive. there wont be numbers for anything else. there will be **** all preventitive activities done, very little patrolling either.
this is a semi rant i know. but im curious is this feeling widespread throughout the country and in the other services?2
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audidiesel wrote: »im just wondering how any current/retired members of the emergancy services are feeling about their profession at the moment and what they think the short to mid term future will be like.
i can only speak for my own experience in the guards but personally ive always wanted to be a guard and up until a year ago was very happy in that career. sadly with changes that have come in the good days feel rarer and the bad days more common.
management seem to be getting so petty its ridiculous. theres a short term vision only.
most people agree that we're going to go down to about 10,500 total by february. i dont think the impact of thats fully understood. i really dont see how the system can function after this.
theres no recruitment starting till 2013 at the earliest. plus the procurement and checks etc take about a year. so say 2014 till templemore opens. at that stage there will probably be less that 10,000 guards serving. (im not including reserves, and theres no offence meant by that).
response times are going to go through the roof. people already bitch that it took an hour for a car to come out to them. i can see that being a good response time nearly in 6 months.
your going to get overworked and underpaid members going **** it why should i bother. the service will suffer as a result. guards wont have time to do follow ups as they will be straight to another call. expect much fudging of figures in the future.
the force will become purely responsive. there wont be numbers for anything else. there will be **** all preventitive activities done, very little patrolling either.
this is a semi rant i know. but im curious is this feeling widespread throughout the country and in the other services?
The simple answer is morale is through the floor where i work but people still get on with it and do their job.0 -
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That's not good to hear. I would prefer to hear that the person responding are in good spirits but I suppose everyone in every area is doom and gloom at the moment, not a lot to be cheerful about.
Still, although I'll get flak for my previous enquiry thread, keep up the great work that is being done as much as possible. I'd heard a great deal of praise in my own area following people's recent encounters with the Gardai.
What's being done with the pension arrangements which are likely to force many experienced members out early are a disgrace and a ticking timebomb in terms of resources and manpower planning.0 -
any word on an intake in 2013 im in the garda reserve,0
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any word on an intake in 2013 im in the garda reserve,
Don't get your hopes up. Public service numbers won't increase until after the bail out is finished, end of 2014. Limited recruitment in 2015, possibly. I'd be worried about all the members who joined in the early 80's when the troubles kicked off up North. They can all retire in the next year or two.0 -
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In the same boat, at the "why should i bother" stage and seriously looking at my options. Only in the force 5 years but it's already a completely different job to what it was when i started. Management thinking it's possible to do an increased workload with less resources, management "happy" with the current numbers, the new rota being a disaster (imo and the majority of my colleagues), sickness through the roof, more of the population starting to hate you, the lack of proper backup, no time to follow up, dramatically increased response time, more tax and less wages, minimal to no overtime. The list goes on.
Morale, despite what you might hear in the media from the higher up ranks, has never been so low. I could comfortably say that if i didn't have a mortgage i would be gone at least 6 months ago. Only in it to pay bills at this stage, and that's stark contrast as to why i initially joined. Not looking forward to the next few years if i stay.
And, that in itself speaks volumes. It's not good to have a force who think like this. But, I'm not the only one who feels like this, and most of the people i work with are in agreement. I also know that it changes station by station, but where i am you;d be lucky to find 10 frontline members who are happy. There's a position coming up which will keep me off the streets, but one which is in line with my pre-employment background, and if i don't get it i can't see myself as a member this time next year. Secure job or not, it's nearly not worth it anymore. There's been a steady number of junior members leaving, and i can see this trend continue while the Government try to bulk up the figures by including office members and reserves into the total operational number.
Oh, and just to add, the GRA are doing nothing as far as i'm concerned. They will say that they brought in the new rotas (which don't work), the Croke Park Agreement (which isn't necessarily safe), but they're doing nothing about the morale. Then again, i suppose there's not much you can do when you can't even get Union status.0 -
Potential-Monke wrote: »In the same boat, at the "why should i bother" stage and seriously looking at my options. Only in the force 5 years but it's already a completely different job to what it was when i started. Management thinking it's possible to do an increased workload with less resources, management "happy" with the current numbers, the new rota being a disaster (imo and the majority of my colleagues), sickness through the roof, more of the population starting to hate you, the lack of proper backup, no time to follow up, dramatically increased response time, more tax and less wages, minimal to no overtime. The list goes on.
Morale, despite what you might hear in the media from the higher up ranks, has never been so low. I could comfortably say that if i didn't have a mortgage i would be gone at least 6 months ago. Only in it to pay bills at this stage, and that's stark contrast as to why i initially joined. Not looking forward to the next few years if i stay.
And, that in itself speaks volumes. It's not good to have a force who think like this. But, I'm not the only one who feels like this, and most of the people i work with are in agreement. I also know that it changes station by station, but where i am you;d be lucky to find 10 frontline members who are happy. There's a position coming up which will keep me off the streets, but one which is in line with my pre-employment background, and if i don't get it i can't see myself as a member this time next year. Secure job or not, it's nearly not worth it anymore. There's been a steady number of junior members leaving, and i can see this trend continue while the Government try to bulk up the figures by including office members and reserves into the total operational number.
Oh, and just to add, the GRA are doing nothing as far as i'm concerned. They will say that they brought in the new rotas (which don't work), the Croke Park Agreement (which isn't necessarily safe), but they're doing nothing about the morale. Then again, i suppose there's not much you can do when you can't even get Union status.
I hear you. I'm in ten years. Increased work load is an understatement. I'm lucky I'm in a town and not a city. I'm ment to be community but have worked less then half rota as compol since the new roster came in because the units are short ALL the time. I'm also ethnic liaison officer, LGBT liaison officer, victim liaison officer, peer supporter and fire arms officer and a few other hats on top of the compol. I turn up, do the shift and go home, it pays the bills with very little enjoyment. More for less is the new motto. And the GRA "pleading" with the government for our November allowances to be paid this year is a joke. Demand, don't plead. Anyway, only 20years to go.0 -
I hear you. I'm in ten years. Increased work load is an understatement. I'm lucky I'm in a town and not a city. I'm ment to be community but have worked less then half rota as compol since the new roster came in because the units are short ALL the time. I'm also ethnic liaison officer, LGBT liaison officer, victim liaison officer, peer supporter and fire arms officer and a few other hats on top of the compol. I turn up, do the shift and go home, it pays the bills with very little enjoyment. More for less is the new motto. And the GRA "pleading" with the government for our November allowances to be paid this year is a joke. Demand, don't plead. Anyway, only 20years to go.
In a city on the regular myself, but you made an extremely valid point, specialized units are no longer specialized. It's rare if CP get a full day in CP, or if the Crime Unit get a full day on crime. We use Traffic for regular calls, and even office members for s/o relief. No-body is double jobbing anymore, it's all triple or quadruple jobbing, and the end result is that the average person pays the price by not having their CP Garda available, the office members not available for calls/queries, everyone not having enough time to investigate. I'm telling everyone i know what it's like, and so are most of my colleagues, but our small voices are not being heard over the booming microphones of the Government, the Commissioner or the majority of the officers...0 -
The problem is that front line staff such as Gardai,firemen,nurses,prison officers etc are being tarred with the "cushy public service" brush along with all the pen pushers ,many of whom serve no purpose.Most of the public have a positive opinion of the above groups and I don't think they begrudge us our resources and pay,but the problem is all the dead wood that the public want to see gone dragging us down.I am a fireman and we have not had a uniform issue for nearly two years.You still have some tosser asking you why you shirt has a little hole in it!0
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The problem is that front line staff such as Gardai,firemen,nurses,prison officers etc are being tarred with the "cushy public service" brush along with all the pen pushers ,many of whom serve no purpose.Most of the public have a positive opinion of the above groups and I don't think they begrudge us our resources and pay,but the problem is all the dead wood that the public want to see gone dragging us down.I am a fireman and we have not had a uniform issue for nearly two years.You still have some tosser asking you why you shirt has a little hole in it!
Guess we're not that bad yet with uniforms. Mind you if you want a replacement (anything) you've to send the old/damaged/soiled one back as proof. Yes here you can indeed have my fluorescent covered in puke / blood / (insert bodily fluid)!0 -
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Guess we're not that bad yet with uniforms. Mind you if you want a replacement (anything) you've to send the old/damaged/soiled one back as proof. Yes here you can indeed have my fluorescent covered in puke / blood / (insert bodily fluid)!
Or trying to make up an excuse as to how you lost it even though it was robbed out of your locker but you don't want an investigation started because that's where you hide the dodgy stuff! :pac:
Just in case anyone thinks otherwise, that's a joke.0 -
either things are bad everywhere.. or this thread is written by my whole unit0
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Guess we're not that bad yet with uniforms. Mind you if you want a replacement (anything) you've to send the old/damaged/soiled one back as proof. Yes here you can indeed have my fluorescent covered in puke / blood / (insert bodily fluid)!
The new uniform ordering thing on portal is actually pretty good. Got approved and ready to collect in about 20 minutes. Very surprised! No questions asked.0 -
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I felt physically ill reading both those stories.:(0 -
Exactly, and people think that this doesn't or shouldn't affect us. The amount of hours and money put into both those cases, only for a Judge to spit in our faces does have an effect on us. It makes it harder to give it your all, combined with less time to actually give it your all. Knowing that if you can't give it your all, someone will be let down, or a whole lot of people will be let down. A scumbag will walk free.
That second story, he pleaded not guilty, how in the name of fook did he get 5 1/2 years suspended? Pleading guilty is a method of reducing sentence, pleading not guilty and then saying after conviction that he's too scared to do the time should not be reason to suspend.
Tell me how, no matter how hard you work, can someone keep giving 100% when the end result is usually a Judge píssing all over you? Making a mockery of your hard work and dedication by doing something like this?
Sorry to be so negative, but this is how i feel, and how a lot of members feel. It's hard to stay positive about something when everything is against you, when management are only waiting for the opportunity to pounce on a mistake, when scumbags have nearly free reign to do what they want, when you know that your next wrong move could land you in jail, when the public are mostly against you and think you get paid too much, when you put your life on the line by running into a burning building to get families out only to be given out to for doing so. There is no positivity in the job anymore.0 -
What do you expect when you are dealing with this Grade A spoofer.....
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/shatter-hits-out-at-those-stuck-in-policing-past-3308937.html
How many frontline members has he ever really talked to ? All down through the ages i'm sure generals have said their troops are just fine.....0 -
Another inspirational speech from our leader Alan 'in the context of' Shatter! :mad:0
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I'd email him letting him know the truth, but knowing the Government he'd have me identified and fired...0
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Potential-Monke wrote: »In the same boat, at the "why should i bother" stage and seriously looking at my options. Only in the force 5 years but it's already a completely different job to what it was when i started. Management thinking it's possible to do an increased workload with less resources, management "happy" with the current numbers, the new rota being a disaster (imo and the majority of my colleagues), sickness through the roof, more of the population starting to hate you, the lack of proper backup, no time to follow up, dramatically increased response time, more tax and less wages, minimal to no overtime. The list goes on.
Morale, despite what you might hear in the media from the higher up ranks, has never been so low. I could comfortably say that if i didn't have a mortgage i would be gone at least 6 months ago. Only in it to pay bills at this stage, and that's stark contrast as to why i initially joined. Not looking forward to the next few years if i stay.
And, that in itself speaks volumes. It's not good to have a force who think like this. But, I'm not the only one who feels like this, and most of the people i work with are in agreement. I also know that it changes station by station, but where i am you;d be lucky to find 10 frontline members who are happy. There's a position coming up which will keep me off the streets, but one which is in line with my pre-employment background, and if i don't get it i can't see myself as a member this time next year. Secure job or not, it's nearly not worth it anymore. There's been a steady number of junior members leaving, and i can see this trend continue while the Government try to bulk up the figures by including office members and reserves into the total operational number.
Oh, and just to add, the GRA are doing nothing as far as i'm concerned. They will say that they brought in the new rotas (which don't work), the Croke Park Agreement (which isn't necessarily safe), but they're doing nothing about the morale. Then again, i suppose there's not much you can do when you can't even get Union status.
I'm in a UK Police Force and the above all sounds very familiar. My colleagues and I are completely fed up apologising to the public for the absolute joke service that is being delivered "more efficiently" (per management) despite all evidence to the contrary.
Response times are not being met, so calls are regraded continuously (downgraded) so as to extend the alloted time so units can make the target. I regularly see "no units to deal" repeatedly posted on incident logs that are days old and the incidence of dissatisfaction calls from the public has quadrupled.
All types of unit now respond to regular calls, such is the lack of numbers on 999 response teams. In some areas neighbourhood teams/compol are the only units making the whole thing work. Traffic, Armed Response, Detective Units etc are all being used to cover jobs that 3 years ago would have been covered by Response. There is no longer such a thing as a divisional boundary and units are plucked from one division to staff up another when the need arises, and this seems to happen on an hourly basis now, where prior to this I have never heard of it happening save in a serious emergency.
I advise people now that they had best ensure their own home security, alarms, good locks, lighting etc quite simply because the Police cannot guarantee anything resembling a protective service anymore. There is no proactive work being done, stop and search etc, and the reactive policing service we now provide is barely keeping up with the increased demand for our service.
Morale is at rock bottom with officers still in probation up to those with 20 years in looking to get out. Everyone, bar those carrying rank, is hacked off and clocking on and clocking off. This it seems, is what the Government wants and the service being delivered is poor. Career development is non-existent with courses frozen, promotion frozen and existing teams and ranks being reduced.
Cuts to social services, ambulance, hostels etc have all placed increased pressure on police and it is only a matter of time before the whole system grinds to a halt. Frontline coppers have always made the system work based on good-will and professionalism but now, thanks to budget cuts, a recruitment freeze, staff losses, a 4 year pay freeze, increased pension contributions, a reduced pension and increased crime and workload, officers are doing what they have to do, no more and no less and professionalism has taken a hit. The attitude of 'pay peanuts, get monkeys' seems to be thriving and generally people are fed up listening to out of touch bosses singing from the same hymn sheet as the greedy thieving politicians.
On top of this our management's mantra (and that of many in the private sector) of 'you're lucky to have a job', no longer holds any truth for my colleagues and I when we are facing increased assaults (I've been assaulted twice in the last 3 weeks) with less backup (and on both occasions was told there was no-one to send immediately) for less money, a sh*t pension and no promotion opportunities. Where is the up side?
Ultimately everyone loses from cuts to frontline services, but the majority won't realise this until they dial 999.
Sorry the news isn't better from the UK.0 -
You don't need to apologise, you have done nothing wrong. This is all the Governments fault. As you said, we just clock in and clock out, there is no more proactive policing, it's all purely reactive.0
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I'm in a UK Police Force and the above all sounds very familiar. My colleagues and I are completely fed up apologising to the public for the absolute joke service that is being delivered "more efficiently" (per management) despite all evidence to the contrary.
Response times are not being met, so calls are regraded continuously (downgraded) so as to extend the alloted time so units can make the target. I regularly see "no units to deal" repeatedly posted on incident logs that are days old and the incidence of dissatisfaction calls from the public has quadrupled.
All types of unit now respond to regular calls, such is the lack of numbers on 999 response teams. In some areas neighbourhood teams/compol are the only units making the whole thing work. Traffic, Armed Response, Detective Units etc are all being used to cover jobs that 3 years ago would have been covered by Response. There is no longer such a thing as a divisional boundary and units are plucked from one division to staff up another when the need arises, and this seems to happen on an hourly basis now, where prior to this I have never heard of it happening save in a serious emergency.
I advise people now that they had best ensure their own home security, alarms, good locks, lighting etc quite simply because the Police cannot guarantee anything resembling a protective service anymore. There is no proactive work being done, stop and search etc, and the reactive policing service we now provide is barely keeping up with the increased demand for our service.
Morale is at rock bottom with officers still in probation up to those with 20 years in looking to get out. Everyone, bar those carrying rank, is hacked off and clocking on and clocking off. This it seems, is what the Government wants and the service being delivered is poor. Career development is non-existent with courses frozen, promotion frozen and existing teams and ranks being reduced.
Cuts to social services, ambulance, hostels etc have all placed increased pressure on police and it is only a matter of time before the whole system grinds to a halt. Frontline coppers have always made the system work based on good-will and professionalism but now, thanks to budget cuts, a recruitment freeze, staff losses, a 4 year pay freeze, increased pension contributions, a reduced pension and increased crime and workload, officers are doing what they have to do, no more and no less and professionalism has taken a hit. The attitude of 'pay peanuts, get monkeys' seems to be thriving and generally people are fed up listening to out of touch bosses singing from the same hymn sheet as the greedy thieving politicians.
On top of this our management's mantra (and that of many in the private sector) of 'you're lucky to have a job', no longer holds any truth for my colleagues and I when we are facing increased assaults (I've been assaulted twice in the last 3 weeks) with less backup (and on both occasions was told there was no-one to send immediately) for less money, a sh*t pension and no promotion opportunities. Where is the up side?
Ultimately everyone loses from cuts to frontline services, but the majority won't realise this until they dial 999.
Sorry the news isn't better from the UK.
Do you think this is true of the Metropolitan Police? They always seem to have very good numbers of people on the ground and also vehicles when I am in London. The City of London Police even moreso. I also wonder about British Transport Police who have TSG vans, dog units, response cars all over London yet I've only ever seen them working with ticket checkers. Those guys must have cash to burn!0 -
Terrontress wrote: »Do you think this is true of the Metropolitan Police? They always seem to have very good numbers of people on the ground and also vehicles when I am in London. The City of London Police even moreso. I also wonder about British Transport Police who have TSG vans, dog units, response cars all over London yet I've only ever seen them working with ticket checkers. Those guys must have cash to burn!
Yes the Met is suffering the same as every other Force. In central London you'll still see cops on patrol, mostly to make the politicians feel safer. Travel out to outer boroughs and its a very different story. I can name you one borough that had a mere two cars covering it recently. The borough policing model currently used by the Met is about to be changed for 'response hub' policing wherein two or three boroughs will merge for policing purposes and will have to get by with less resources between them.
City Police are a non-entity really. They police a populace of about 3000 residents in a square mile where crime is low. Are they suffering cuts? Yes and their numbers are also being reduced.
BTP are also non-existent outside big cities and even in places like London are few and far between, leading to their nickname of 'be there presently'.0 -
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Alan Shatter's interview recently talking about Garda morale reminded me of Comical Ali's final interview in the centre of Bagdad to media denying the yanks were there and bombs going off in the backround! At least Ali was funny!0
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I don't want to start a them -v- us battle here, but on top of what's been mentioned re:shatter not knowing a thing, lack of resources and members, what really gets me is the likes of the defence forces getting new members, and look at the resources they have! now i have no issue with the PDF lads, and they do have a job to do and do it well, but those last armoured jeep things cost a bloody fortune, on top of Mowags, Scorpions, new choppers, and now new soldiers?
ffs lads we're not under threat of invasion (in any case whoever does invade us we'll probably end up being better run!) but there IS a massive boost in crime!
Ignoring the members issue for now (which is the biggest issue imo), we had been screaming out for cars and we're lucky to get the handful of Avensis' that we got, not as good a car as the old mondeos but they're a damn sight better than the new fleet, all 1.6 diesel focus and similar... traffic to get 1.8? nice and cheap but cheap works both ways, instead of funding the defence forces to the level they are when their job, and i don't mean any offence by this, is basically overseas missions, cash escorts, EOD, and invasion "readyness".... imo they are more than equipped for the overseas escorts, and EOD and if the millions pumped into them was redirected to fighting the surging crime instead of wars we technically aren't fighting and we had a proper, larger, 24/7 RSU that could easily cover the cash escorts, and more garda members we might just be able to keep peace on irish streets, cos the way its heading now we're going to have to call on the army to assist us do that, cos we're not coping as it is
going off in a rant again, just want to say my problem isn't with the PDF or any of their members but the allocation of funds and resources from the government, showing either a massive disregard to whats going on, or worse an ignorance to it0 -
I don't want to start a them -v- us battle here, but on top of what's been mentioned re:shatter not knowing a thing, lack of resources and members, what really gets me is the likes of the defence forces getting new members, and look at the resources they have! now i have no issue with the PDF lads, and they do have a job to do and do it well, but those last armoured jeep things cost a bloody fortune, on top of Mowags, Scorpions, new choppers, and now new soldiers?
ffs lads we're not under threat of invasion (in any case whoever does invade us we'll probably end up being better run!) but there IS a massive boost in crime!
Ignoring the members issue for now (which is the biggest issue imo), we had been screaming out for cars and we're lucky to get the handful of Avensis' that we got, not as good a car as the old mondeos but they're a damn sight better than the new fleet, all 1.6 diesel focus and similar... traffic to get 1.8? nice and cheap but cheap works both ways, instead of funding the defence forces to the level they are when their job, and i don't mean any offence by this, is basically overseas missions, cash escorts, EOD, and invasion "readyness".... imo they are more than equipped for the overseas escorts, and EOD and if the millions pumped into them was redirected to fighting the surging crime instead of wars we technically aren't fighting and we had a proper, larger, 24/7 RSU that could easily cover the cash escorts, and more garda members we might just be able to keep peace on irish streets, cos the way its heading now we're going to have to call on the army to assist us do that, cos we're not coping as it is
going off in a rant again, just want to say my problem isn't with the PDF or any of their members but the allocation of funds and resources from the government, showing either a massive disregard to whats going on, or worse an ignorance to it
New Armour, helis etc, and you begrudge them.
The situation was comparable to AGS patrolling in Ford Cortinas. The Outlay was large, but they will not need to be replaced for another 30 years or so.
The cost to the state for the DF is miniscule, given what they provide. They have been a very valuable asset to have protecting AGS for many years. It is unfortunate that you do not fully understand what the DF do, if you did you would not even dream of suggesting what you have.0 -
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Unfortunately The Police service in UK and AGS in ROI is being run like a business now, figures, numbers, bottom line, management out of touch with members on core Police front line duties.
Im ex-Police UK, made the move back home to Dublin a few years back.
I can see AGS going down the route of UK Police forces with more Civilanisation.
This was mentioned many years ago in a report on AGS, think it may have been called the Strategic Management Initiative, ex- Commissioner Byrne.
We had Specials in UK similiar to Reserve here, that said most of them used to be left in the mess room and no-one would want to work with them.
On a positive note I see AGS are getting new vehicles, Ford won the contract over BMW's offer.
I like the new silver colour over white anyday, similiar to Met in UK.0
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