Emergancy Services Morale

audidiesel

im just wondering how any current/retired members of the emergancy services are feeling about their profession at the moment and what they think the short to mid term future will be like.

i can only speak for my own experience in the guards but personally ive always wanted to be a guard and up until a year ago was very happy in that career. sadly with changes that have come in the good days feel rarer and the bad days more common.

management seem to be getting so petty its ridiculous. theres a short term vision only.

most people agree that we're going to go down to about 10,500 total by february. i dont think the impact of thats fully understood. i really dont see how the system can function after this.

theres no recruitment starting till 2013 at the earliest. plus the procurement and checks etc take about a year. so say 2014 till templemore opens. at that stage there will probably be less that 10,000 guards serving. (im not including reserves, and theres no offence meant by that).

response times are going to go through the roof. people already bitch that it took an hour for a car to come out to them. i can see that being a good response time nearly in 6 months.

your going to get overworked and underpaid members going **** it why should i bother. the service will suffer as a result. guards wont have time to do follow ups as they will be straight to another call. expect much fudging of figures in the future.

the force will become purely responsive. there wont be numbers for anything else. there will be **** all preventitive activities done, very little patrolling either.

this is a semi rant i know. but im curious is this feeling widespread throughout the country and in the other services?

Paulzx

audidiesel wrote: »

im just wondering how any current/retired members of the emergancy services are feeling about their profession at the moment and what they think the short to mid term future will be like.

i can only speak for my own experience in the guards but personally ive always wanted to be a guard and up until a year ago was very happy in that career. sadly with changes that have come in the good days feel rarer and the bad days more common.

management seem to be getting so petty its ridiculous. theres a short term vision only.

most people agree that we're going to go down to about 10,500 total by february. i dont think the impact of thats fully understood. i really dont see how the system can function after this.

theres no recruitment starting till 2013 at the earliest. plus the procurement and checks etc take about a year. so say 2014 till templemore opens. at that stage there will probably be less that 10,000 guards serving. (im not including reserves, and theres no offence meant by that).

response times are going to go through the roof. people already bitch that it took an hour for a car to come out to them. i can see that being a good response time nearly in 6 months.

your going to get overworked and underpaid members going **** it why should i bother. the service will suffer as a result. guards wont have time to do follow ups as they will be straight to another call. expect much fudging of figures in the future.

the force will become purely responsive. there wont be numbers for anything else. there will be **** all preventitive activities done, very little patrolling either.

this is a semi rant i know. but im curious is this feeling widespread throughout the country and in the other services?

The simple answer is morale is through the floor where i work but people still get on with it and do their job.

d3exile

Paulzx wrote: »

The simple answer is morale is through the floor where i work but people still get on with it and do their job.

+1


our workload has increased, hazards increased, with pay and conditions in a downward spiral that doesn't look like stopping anytime soon!

Contra Proferentem

That's not good to hear. I would prefer to hear that the person responding are in good spirits but I suppose everyone in every area is doom and gloom at the moment, not a lot to be cheerful about.

Still, although I'll get flak for my previous enquiry thread, keep up the great work that is being done as much as possible. I'd heard a great deal of praise in my own area following people's recent encounters with the Gardai.

What's being done with the pension arrangements which are likely to force many experienced members out early are a disgrace and a ticking timebomb in terms of resources and manpower planning.

ppaddy

any word on an intake in 2013 im in the garda reserve,

Lmklad

ppaddy wrote: »

any word on an intake in 2013 im in the garda reserve,

Don't get your hopes up. Public service numbers won't increase until after the bail out is finished, end of 2014. Limited recruitment in 2015, possibly. I'd be worried about all the members who joined in the early 80's when the troubles kicked off up North. They can all retire in the next year or two.

Potential-Monke

In the same boat, at the "why should i bother" stage and seriously looking at my options. Only in the force 5 years but it's already a completely different job to what it was when i started. Management thinking it's possible to do an increased workload with less resources, management "happy" with the current numbers, the new rota being a disaster (imo and the majority of my colleagues), sickness through the roof, more of the population starting to hate you, the lack of proper backup, no time to follow up, dramatically increased response time, more tax and less wages, minimal to no overtime. The list goes on.

Morale, despite what you might hear in the media from the higher up ranks, has never been so low. I could comfortably say that if i didn't have a mortgage i would be gone at least 6 months ago. Only in it to pay bills at this stage, and that's stark contrast as to why i initially joined. Not looking forward to the next few years if i stay.

And, that in itself speaks volumes. It's not good to have a force who think like this. But, I'm not the only one who feels like this, and most of the people i work with are in agreement. I also know that it changes station by station, but where i am you;d be lucky to find 10 frontline members who are happy. There's a position coming up which will keep me off the streets, but one which is in line with my pre-employment background, and if i don't get it i can't see myself as a member this time next year. Secure job or not, it's nearly not worth it anymore. There's been a steady number of junior members leaving, and i can see this trend continue while the Government try to bulk up the figures by including office members and reserves into the total operational number.

Oh, and just to add, the GRA are doing nothing as far as i'm concerned. They will say that they brought in the new rotas (which don't work), the Croke Park Agreement (which isn't necessarily safe), but they're doing nothing about the morale. Then again, i suppose there's not much you can do when you can't even get Union status.

Lmklad

Potential-Monke wrote: »

In the same boat, at the "why should i bother" stage and seriously looking at my options. Only in the force 5 years but it's already a completely different job to what it was when i started. Management thinking it's possible to do an increased workload with less resources, management "happy" with the current numbers, the new rota being a disaster (imo and the majority of my colleagues), sickness through the roof, more of the population starting to hate you, the lack of proper backup, no time to follow up, dramatically increased response time, more tax and less wages, minimal to no overtime. The list goes on.

Morale, despite what you might hear in the media from the higher up ranks, has never been so low. I could comfortably say that if i didn't have a mortgage i would be gone at least 6 months ago. Only in it to pay bills at this stage, and that's stark contrast as to why i initially joined. Not looking forward to the next few years if i stay.

And, that in itself speaks volumes. It's not good to have a force who think like this. But, I'm not the only one who feels like this, and most of the people i work with are in agreement. I also know that it changes station by station, but where i am you;d be lucky to find 10 frontline members who are happy. There's a position coming up which will keep me off the streets, but one which is in line with my pre-employment background, and if i don't get it i can't see myself as a member this time next year. Secure job or not, it's nearly not worth it anymore. There's been a steady number of junior members leaving, and i can see this trend continue while the Government try to bulk up the figures by including office members and reserves into the total operational number.

Oh, and just to add, the GRA are doing nothing as far as i'm concerned. They will say that they brought in the new rotas (which don't work), the Croke Park Agreement (which isn't necessarily safe), but they're doing nothing about the morale. Then again, i suppose there's not much you can do when you can't even get Union status.

I hear you. I'm in ten years. Increased work load is an understatement. I'm lucky I'm in a town and not a city. I'm ment to be community but have worked less then half rota as compol since the new roster came in because the units are short ALL the time. I'm also ethnic liaison officer, LGBT liaison officer, victim liaison officer, peer supporter and fire arms officer and a few other hats on top of the compol. I turn up, do the shift and go home, it pays the bills with very little enjoyment. More for less is the new motto. And the GRA "pleading" with the government for our November allowances to be paid this year is a joke. Demand, don't plead. Anyway, only 20years to go.

Potential-Monke

Lmklad wrote: »

I hear you. I'm in ten years. Increased work load is an understatement. I'm lucky I'm in a town and not a city. I'm ment to be community but have worked less then half rota as compol since the new roster came in because the units are short ALL the time. I'm also ethnic liaison officer, LGBT liaison officer, victim liaison officer, peer supporter and fire arms officer and a few other hats on top of the compol. I turn up, do the shift and go home, it pays the bills with very little enjoyment. More for less is the new motto. And the GRA "pleading" with the government for our November allowances to be paid this year is a joke. Demand, don't plead. Anyway, only 20years to go.

In a city on the regular myself, but you made an extremely valid point, specialized units are no longer specialized. It's rare if CP get a full day in CP, or if the Crime Unit get a full day on crime. We use Traffic for regular calls, and even office members for s/o relief. No-body is double jobbing anymore, it's all triple or quadruple jobbing, and the end result is that the average person pays the price by not having their CP Garda available, the office members not available for calls/queries, everyone not having enough time to investigate. I'm telling everyone i know what it's like, and so are most of my colleagues, but our small voices are not being heard over the booming microphones of the Government, the Commissioner or the majority of the officers...

repsol

The problem is that front line staff such as Gardai,firemen,nurses,prison officers etc are being tarred with the "cushy public service" brush along with all the pen pushers ,many of whom serve no purpose.Most of the public have a positive opinion of the above groups and I don't think they begrudge us our resources and pay,but the problem is all the dead wood that the public want to see gone dragging us down.I am a fireman and we have not had a uniform issue for nearly two years.You still have some tosser asking you why you shirt has a little hole in it!

Lmklad

repsol wrote: »

The problem is that front line staff such as Gardai,firemen,nurses,prison officers etc are being tarred with the "cushy public service" brush along with all the pen pushers ,many of whom serve no purpose.Most of the public have a positive opinion of the above groups and I don't think they begrudge us our resources and pay,but the problem is all the dead wood that the public want to see gone dragging us down.I am a fireman and we have not had a uniform issue for nearly two years.You still have some tosser asking you why you shirt has a little hole in it!

Guess we're not that bad yet with uniforms. Mind you if you want a replacement (anything) you've to send the old/damaged/soiled one back as proof. Yes here you can indeed have my fluorescent covered in puke / blood / (insert bodily fluid)!

Potential-Monke

Lmklad wrote: »

Guess we're not that bad yet with uniforms. Mind you if you want a replacement (anything) you've to send the old/damaged/soiled one back as proof. Yes here you can indeed have my fluorescent covered in puke / blood / (insert bodily fluid)!

Or trying to make up an excuse as to how you lost it even though it was robbed out of your locker but you don't want an investigation started because that's where you hide the dodgy stuff! :pac:




Just in case anyone thinks otherwise, that's a joke.

pa990

either things are bad everywhere.. or this thread is written by my whole unit

0325422

Lmklad wrote: »

Guess we're not that bad yet with uniforms. Mind you if you want a replacement (anything) you've to send the old/damaged/soiled one back as proof. Yes here you can indeed have my fluorescent covered in puke / blood / (insert bodily fluid)!

The new uniform ordering thing on portal is actually pretty good. Got approved and ready to collect in about 20 minutes. Very surprised! No questions asked.

Bosh

Everything is just ticketyboo

and you wonder why

Zambia

Bosh wrote: »

Everything is just ticketyboo

and you wonder why

I felt physically ill reading both those stories.:(

Potential-Monke

Exactly, and people think that this doesn't or shouldn't affect us. The amount of hours and money put into both those cases, only for a Judge to spit in our faces does have an effect on us. It makes it harder to give it your all, combined with less time to actually give it your all. Knowing that if you can't give it your all, someone will be let down, or a whole lot of people will be let down. A scumbag will walk free.

That second story, he pleaded not guilty, how in the name of fook did he get 5 1/2 years suspended? Pleading guilty is a method of reducing sentence, pleading not guilty and then saying after conviction that he's too scared to do the time should not be reason to suspend.

Tell me how, no matter how hard you work, can someone keep giving 100% when the end result is usually a Judge píssing all over you? Making a mockery of your hard work and dedication by doing something like this?

Sorry to be so negative, but this is how i feel, and how a lot of members feel. It's hard to stay positive about something when everything is against you, when management are only waiting for the opportunity to pounce on a mistake, when scumbags have nearly free reign to do what they want, when you know that your next wrong move could land you in jail, when the public are mostly against you and think you get paid too much, when you put your life on the line by running into a burning building to get families out only to be given out to for doing so. There is no positivity in the job anymore.

coolhandluke

What do you expect when you are dealing with this Grade A spoofer.....

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/shatter-hits-out-at-those-stuck-in-policing-past-3308937.html

How many frontline members has he ever really talked to ? All down through the ages i'm sure generals have said their troops are just fine.....

rollcall

Another inspirational speech from our leader Alan 'in the context of' Shatter! :mad:

Potential-Monke

I'd email him letting him know the truth, but knowing the Government he'd have me identified and fired...

BaronVon

0325422 wrote: »

The new uniform ordering thing on portal is actually pretty good. Got approved and ready to collect in about 20 minutes. Very surprised! No questions asked.

There's a uniform ordering thing on the portal?

judoman

Potential-Monke wrote: »

In the same boat, at the "why should i bother" stage and seriously looking at my options. Only in the force 5 years but it's already a completely different job to what it was when i started. Management thinking it's possible to do an increased workload with less resources, management "happy" with the current numbers, the new rota being a disaster (imo and the majority of my colleagues), sickness through the roof, more of the population starting to hate you, the lack of proper backup, no time to follow up, dramatically increased response time, more tax and less wages, minimal to no overtime. The list goes on.

Morale, despite what you might hear in the media from the higher up ranks, has never been so low. I could comfortably say that if i didn't have a mortgage i would be gone at least 6 months ago. Only in it to pay bills at this stage, and that's stark contrast as to why i initially joined. Not looking forward to the next few years if i stay.

And, that in itself speaks volumes. It's not good to have a force who think like this. But, I'm not the only one who feels like this, and most of the people i work with are in agreement. I also know that it changes station by station, but where i am you;d be lucky to find 10 frontline members who are happy. There's a position coming up which will keep me off the streets, but one which is in line with my pre-employment background, and if i don't get it i can't see myself as a member this time next year. Secure job or not, it's nearly not worth it anymore. There's been a steady number of junior members leaving, and i can see this trend continue while the Government try to bulk up the figures by including office members and reserves into the total operational number.

Oh, and just to add, the GRA are doing nothing as far as i'm concerned. They will say that they brought in the new rotas (which don't work), the Croke Park Agreement (which isn't necessarily safe), but they're doing nothing about the morale. Then again, i suppose there's not much you can do when you can't even get Union status.

I'm in a UK Police Force and the above all sounds very familiar. My colleagues and I are completely fed up apologising to the public for the absolute joke service that is being delivered "more efficiently" (per management) despite all evidence to the contrary.

Response times are not being met, so calls are regraded continuously (downgraded) so as to extend the alloted time so units can make the target. I regularly see "no units to deal" repeatedly posted on incident logs that are days old and the incidence of dissatisfaction calls from the public has quadrupled.

All types of unit now respond to regular calls, such is the lack of numbers on 999 response teams. In some areas neighbourhood teams/compol are the only units making the whole thing work. Traffic, Armed Response, Detective Units etc are all being used to cover jobs that 3 years ago would have been covered by Response. There is no longer such a thing as a divisional boundary and units are plucked from one division to staff up another when the need arises, and this seems to happen on an hourly basis now, where prior to this I have never heard of it happening save in a serious emergency.

I advise people now that they had best ensure their own home security, alarms, good locks, lighting etc quite simply because the Police cannot guarantee anything resembling a protective service anymore. There is no proactive work being done, stop and search etc, and the reactive policing service we now provide is barely keeping up with the increased demand for our service.

Morale is at rock bottom with officers still in probation up to those with 20 years in looking to get out. Everyone, bar those carrying rank, is hacked off and clocking on and clocking off. This it seems, is what the Government wants and the service being delivered is poor. Career development is non-existent with courses frozen, promotion frozen and existing teams and ranks being reduced.

Cuts to social services, ambulance, hostels etc have all placed increased pressure on police and it is only a matter of time before the whole system grinds to a halt. Frontline coppers have always made the system work based on good-will and professionalism but now, thanks to budget cuts, a recruitment freeze, staff losses, a 4 year pay freeze, increased pension contributions, a reduced pension and increased crime and workload, officers are doing what they have to do, no more and no less and professionalism has taken a hit. The attitude of 'pay peanuts, get monkeys' seems to be thriving and generally people are fed up listening to out of touch bosses singing from the same hymn sheet as the greedy thieving politicians.

On top of this our management's mantra (and that of many in the private sector) of 'you're lucky to have a job', no longer holds any truth for my colleagues and I when we are facing increased assaults (I've been assaulted twice in the last 3 weeks) with less backup (and on both occasions was told there was no-one to send immediately) for less money, a sh*t pension and no promotion opportunities. Where is the up side?

Ultimately everyone loses from cuts to frontline services, but the majority won't realise this until they dial 999.

Sorry the news isn't better from the UK.

Potential-Monke

You don't need to apologise, you have done nothing wrong. This is all the Governments fault. As you said, we just clock in and clock out, there is no more proactive policing, it's all purely reactive.

0325422

infacteh wrote: »

There's a uniform ordering thing on the portal?

Yup.. It's up near the home tab on main screen

Terrontress

judoman wrote: »

I'm in a UK Police Force and the above all sounds very familiar. My colleagues and I are completely fed up apologising to the public for the absolute joke service that is being delivered "more efficiently" (per management) despite all evidence to the contrary.

Response times are not being met, so calls are regraded continuously (downgraded) so as to extend the alloted time so units can make the target. I regularly see "no units to deal" repeatedly posted on incident logs that are days old and the incidence of dissatisfaction calls from the public has quadrupled.

All types of unit now respond to regular calls, such is the lack of numbers on 999 response teams. In some areas neighbourhood teams/compol are the only units making the whole thing work. Traffic, Armed Response, Detective Units etc are all being used to cover jobs that 3 years ago would have been covered by Response. There is no longer such a thing as a divisional boundary and units are plucked from one division to staff up another when the need arises, and this seems to happen on an hourly basis now, where prior to this I have never heard of it happening save in a serious emergency.

I advise people now that they had best ensure their own home security, alarms, good locks, lighting etc quite simply because the Police cannot guarantee anything resembling a protective service anymore. There is no proactive work being done, stop and search etc, and the reactive policing service we now provide is barely keeping up with the increased demand for our service.

Morale is at rock bottom with officers still in probation up to those with 20 years in looking to get out. Everyone, bar those carrying rank, is hacked off and clocking on and clocking off. This it seems, is what the Government wants and the service being delivered is poor. Career development is non-existent with courses frozen, promotion frozen and existing teams and ranks being reduced.

Cuts to social services, ambulance, hostels etc have all placed increased pressure on police and it is only a matter of time before the whole system grinds to a halt. Frontline coppers have always made the system work based on good-will and professionalism but now, thanks to budget cuts, a recruitment freeze, staff losses, a 4 year pay freeze, increased pension contributions, a reduced pension and increased crime and workload, officers are doing what they have to do, no more and no less and professionalism has taken a hit. The attitude of 'pay peanuts, get monkeys' seems to be thriving and generally people are fed up listening to out of touch bosses singing from the same hymn sheet as the greedy thieving politicians.

On top of this our management's mantra (and that of many in the private sector) of 'you're lucky to have a job', no longer holds any truth for my colleagues and I when we are facing increased assaults (I've been assaulted twice in the last 3 weeks) with less backup (and on both occasions was told there was no-one to send immediately) for less money, a sh*t pension and no promotion opportunities. Where is the up side?

Ultimately everyone loses from cuts to frontline services, but the majority won't realise this until they dial 999.

Sorry the news isn't better from the UK.

Do you think this is true of the Metropolitan Police? They always seem to have very good numbers of people on the ground and also vehicles when I am in London. The City of London Police even moreso. I also wonder about British Transport Police who have TSG vans, dog units, response cars all over London yet I've only ever seen them working with ticket checkers. Those guys must have cash to burn!

judoman

Terrontress wrote: »

Do you think this is true of the Metropolitan Police? They always seem to have very good numbers of people on the ground and also vehicles when I am in London. The City of London Police even moreso. I also wonder about British Transport Police who have TSG vans, dog units, response cars all over London yet I've only ever seen them working with ticket checkers. Those guys must have cash to burn!

Yes the Met is suffering the same as every other Force. In central London you'll still see cops on patrol, mostly to make the politicians feel safer. Travel out to outer boroughs and its a very different story. I can name you one borough that had a mere two cars covering it recently. The borough policing model currently used by the Met is about to be changed for 'response hub' policing wherein two or three boroughs will merge for policing purposes and will have to get by with less resources between them.

City Police are a non-entity really. They police a populace of about 3000 residents in a square mile where crime is low. Are they suffering cuts? Yes and their numbers are also being reduced.

BTP are also non-existent outside big cities and even in places like London are few and far between, leading to their nickname of 'be there presently'.

pa990

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9riCK5ivhis&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Pappa Charlie

Alan Shatter's interview recently talking about Garda morale reminded me of Comical Ali's final interview in the centre of Bagdad to media denying the yanks were there and bombs going off in the backround! At least Ali was funny!

d3exile

I don't want to start a them -v- us battle here, but on top of what's been mentioned re:shatter not knowing a thing, lack of resources and members, what really gets me is the likes of the defence forces getting new members, and look at the resources they have! now i have no issue with the PDF lads, and they do have a job to do and do it well, but those last armoured jeep things cost a bloody fortune, on top of Mowags, Scorpions, new choppers, and now new soldiers?

ffs lads we're not under threat of invasion (in any case whoever does invade us we'll probably end up being better run!) but there IS a massive boost in crime!
Ignoring the members issue for now (which is the biggest issue imo), we had been screaming out for cars and we're lucky to get the handful of Avensis' that we got, not as good a car as the old mondeos but they're a damn sight better than the new fleet, all 1.6 diesel focus and similar... traffic to get 1.8? nice and cheap but cheap works both ways, instead of funding the defence forces to the level they are when their job, and i don't mean any offence by this, is basically overseas missions, cash escorts, EOD, and invasion "readyness".... imo they are more than equipped for the overseas escorts, and EOD and if the millions pumped into them was redirected to fighting the surging crime instead of wars we technically aren't fighting and we had a proper, larger, 24/7 RSU that could easily cover the cash escorts, and more garda members we might just be able to keep peace on irish streets, cos the way its heading now we're going to have to call on the army to assist us do that, cos we're not coping as it is

going off in a rant again, just want to say my problem isn't with the PDF or any of their members but the allocation of funds and resources from the government, showing either a massive disregard to whats going on, or worse an ignorance to it

goldie fish

d3exile wrote: »

I don't want to start a them -v- us battle here, but on top of what's been mentioned re:shatter not knowing a thing, lack of resources and members, what really gets me is the likes of the defence forces getting new members, and look at the resources they have! now i have no issue with the PDF lads, and they do have a job to do and do it well, but those last armoured jeep things cost a bloody fortune, on top of Mowags, Scorpions, new choppers, and now new soldiers?

ffs lads we're not under threat of invasion (in any case whoever does invade us we'll probably end up being better run!) but there IS a massive boost in crime!
Ignoring the members issue for now (which is the biggest issue imo), we had been screaming out for cars and we're lucky to get the handful of Avensis' that we got, not as good a car as the old mondeos but they're a damn sight better than the new fleet, all 1.6 diesel focus and similar... traffic to get 1.8? nice and cheap but cheap works both ways, instead of funding the defence forces to the level they are when their job, and i don't mean any offence by this, is basically overseas missions, cash escorts, EOD, and invasion "readyness".... imo they are more than equipped for the overseas escorts, and EOD and if the millions pumped into them was redirected to fighting the surging crime instead of wars we technically aren't fighting and we had a proper, larger, 24/7 RSU that could easily cover the cash escorts, and more garda members we might just be able to keep peace on irish streets, cos the way its heading now we're going to have to call on the army to assist us do that, cos we're not coping as it is

going off in a rant again, just want to say my problem isn't with the PDF or any of their members but the allocation of funds and resources from the government, showing either a massive disregard to whats going on, or worse an ignorance to it

New Armour, helis etc, and you begrudge them.

The situation was comparable to AGS patrolling in Ford Cortinas. The Outlay was large, but they will not need to be replaced for another 30 years or so.
The cost to the state for the DF is miniscule, given what they provide. They have been a very valuable asset to have protecting AGS for many years. It is unfortunate that you do not fully understand what the DF do, if you did you would not even dream of suggesting what you have.

kravmaga

Unfortunately The Police service in UK and AGS in ROI is being run like a business now, figures, numbers, bottom line, management out of touch with members on core Police front line duties.

Im ex-Police UK, made the move back home to Dublin a few years back.

I can see AGS going down the route of UK Police forces with more Civilanisation.

This was mentioned many years ago in a report on AGS, think it may have been called the Strategic Management Initiative, ex- Commissioner Byrne.

We had Specials in UK similiar to Reserve here, that said most of them used to be left in the mess room and no-one would want to work with them.

On a positive note I see AGS are getting new vehicles, Ford won the contract over BMW's offer.

I like the new silver colour over white anyday, similiar to Met in UK.

Qwerty Dub

kravmaga wrote: »

Unfortunately The Police service in UK and AGS in ROI is being run like a business now, figures, numbers, bottom line, management out of touch with members on core Police front line duties.

Im ex-Police UK, made the move back home to Dublin a few years back.

I can see AGS going down the route of UK Police forces with more Civilanisation.

This was mentioned many years ago in a report on AGS, think it may have been called the Strategic Management Initiative, ex- Commissioner Byrne.

We had Specials in UK similiar to Reserve here, that said most of them used to be left in the mess room and no-one would want to work with them.

On a positive note I see AGS are getting new vehicles, Ford won the contract over BMW's offer.

I like the new silver colour over white anyday, similiar to Met in UK.

Did anyone else hear that the BMW tender was actually cheaper but they didn't go with it because they feel it sends out the wrong message to the public as in we are in a recession and the state are splashing out on BMWs.

audidiesel

Qwerty Dub wrote: »

Did anyone else hear that the BMW tender was actually cheaper but they didn't go with it because they feel it sends out the wrong message to the public as in we are in a recession and the state are splashing out on BMWs.

that was true back in 2007 anyways. the problem with the new tender is its mostly focus diesels, transit connects and not mondeos. plus the bmw's are customised for policing duties. the fords are the exact same as in the showroom. only they rip out the am/fm radio and fit lights. they are only replacing about a third of what they have removed over the past few years anyways.

honestly i couldnt give a damn about this job anymore. i clock in and clock out thats it. minimal effort for minimal pay. if i could get a job elsewhere id be gone in the morning

Qwerty Dub

audidiesel wrote: »

that was true back in 2007 anyways. the problem with the new tender is its mostly focus diesels, transit connects and not mondeos. plus the bmw's are customised for policing duties. the fords are the exact same as in the showroom. only they rip out the am/fm radio and fit lights. they are only replacing about a third of what they have removed over the past few years anyways.

honestly i couldnt give a damn about this job anymore. i clock in and clock out thats it. minimal effort for minimal pay. if i could get a job elsewhere id be gone in the morning

Yeah I had heard the BMWs were police spec. Seems like a no brainer to me.

Unfortunately your opinion of the job seems to be like many others. Its a shame it has got that far. I would hate to think that some members of our police force are vulnerable to an approach from certain people given how unhappy they are & how short on money they are.

Zambia

audidiesel wrote: »

honestly i couldnt give a damn about this job anymore. i clock in and clock out thats it. minimal effort for minimal pay. if i could get a job elsewhere id be gone in the morning

Meanwhile in Australia

NSFW
https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/281288_471636502883297_1852056460_n.jpg

Potential-Monke

Potential-Monke wrote: »

more of the population starting to hate you

Don't take this the wrong way, but as a law-abiding, tax-paying, upstanding member of society (never had so much as a parking ticket), the reason I dislike the guards is that I've met one too many of them who seem to find it worth their while to waste their time harassing me for no good reason.

It also makes me question the 'lack of resources' line. Some of the nonsense I've had from guards in my time is ridiculous.

I have huge sympathy for front-line workers and I can only imagine the ****e you have to put up with every day. But you don't do yourselves any favours sometimes.

d3exile

goldie fish wrote: »

The cost to the state for the DF is miniscule, given what they provide.

my point was that given what they provide, its a lot of money...

goldie fish wrote: »

They have been a very valuable asset to have protecting AGS for many years.

protection? yeah i'd admit they have been a good "aide to the civil power" when called upon, as AGS aren't given the resources to protect ourselves from certain aspects that criminals can engage with, but, and again no disrespect to the PDF members, but, if I do required armed assistance its the likes of the RSU and ERU that i'd rather be relying on providing assistance, it's Irish soil, you don't see the British Army giving armed assistance to the MET? or the US Army assisting the NYPD? the "protection" that the army provide should not be provided by soldiers, soliders are trained how to shoot, policemen are trained why to shoot and when not to shoot, and don't cost a fraction of what the recent bill the Dept.of Defence picked up.

My point is that the setup is wrong and funding is being allocated where it isn't needed, or at least needed as badly as where it is needed


anyway i tried to mention as much as i can that i mean no offence to the PDF as the job they do do is sound, so i apologise if i have offended you..

goldie fish

d3exile wrote: »

my point was that given what they provide, its a lot of money...




protection? yeah i'd admit they have been a good "aide to the civil power" when called upon, as AGS aren't given the resources to protect ourselves from certain aspects that criminals can engage with, but, and again no disrespect to the PDF members, but, if I do required armed assistance its the likes of the RSU and ERU that i'd rather be relying on providing assistance, it's Irish soil, you don't see the British Army giving armed assistance to the MET? or the US Army assisting the NYPD? the "protection" that the army provide should not be provided by soldiers, soliders are trained how to shoot, policemen are trained why to shoot and when not to shoot, and don't cost a fraction of what the recent bill the Dept.of Defence picked up.

..

Do you not remember the convoys of Scimitar CVRTs entering Heathrow to protect it after 9/11? And due to the legal differences, the US army do not deploy in a comparable ATCP role, as that is what the US National Guard do. You'll find many occasions in recent history when the NG deployed to assist local law enforcement.
The Irish defence forces are also trained when and why to shoot. You seem to assume they are trigger happy robots. How much do you think it would cost to train 9000 gardai to shoot to the standard of the Defence forces? After you have done that, how much will it cost you to train the Gardai to operate their own helicopters, and naval fleet? Remember you still need to be able to protect out waters up to 500 miles off the west coast.

Again your post reveals your ignorance of wha tthe defence forces do, and an even greater ignorance of what the Gardai do. You cannot compare like with like. Its Apples and Toblerones.

d3exile

goldie fish wrote: »

Do you not remember the convoys of Scimitar CVRTs entering Heathrow to protect it after 9/11? And due to the legal differences, the US army do not deploy in a comparable ATCP role, as that is what the US National Guard do. You'll find many occasions in recent history when the NG deployed to assist local law enforcement.
The Irish defence forces are also trained when and why to shoot. You seem to assume they are trigger happy robots. How much do you think it would cost to train 9000 gardai to shoot to the standard of the Defence forces? After you have done that, how much will it cost you to train the Gardai to operate their own helicopters, and naval fleet? Remember you still need to be able to protect out waters up to 500 miles off the west coast.

Again your post reveals your ignorance of wha tthe defence forces do, and an even greater ignorance of what the Gardai do. You cannot compare like with like. Its Apples and Toblerones.

Ah stop will ya, I am not having a go at the Defence Forces or the role they provide, i've said that, my issue is the huge resources that went into boosting the toblerones would be of much better benefit when the country is crying out for apples!!!

Granted in the case of a 9/11 scenario I would expect soldiers on the street, but lets assume i'm talking about the other 99.9% of the time... I accept that the Naval Service are crucial in their work off the coast and the Aer Corps do a fantastic job flying the Garda aircraft and Coast Guard's (I think?) and the Army do a great job on overseas protection and the likes of EOD, and CIT escorts etc...

My point was not anti - defence forces, it was asking why a huge funding boost, why now, when their workload hasn't necessarily increased over the last few years to the scale of the great demands placed on other services
when that funding, as preciously rare as funding is this days, other organisations that are consistently having to perform in a more-for-less scenario day in day out all over the country, not just in small exercises and duties

And I never once suggested training all Gardaí in shooting?!?

I think you're taking my point up completely wrong, again, i'm not having a go at the PDF, just the decision to pump money into it thats more desperately needed elsewhere, not just AGS, but Hospitals, Ambulance and Fire Services...

goldie fish

I know you aren't having a go.
The rescources are scarce and everyone wants their fair share. What you have missed however is that the Defence vote, when Pay and pensions are excluded is in the order of about 200m per year. If you take it away from defence, you will only ending up spending it elsewhere to have another agency do the job Defence used to do. Take for example SAR. When they stopped investing in SAR aircraft for the Air Corps, a private civilian company was hired to do the job instead. Where the Air Corps managed their best with poor funding, once the Private operator took over there was apparently no limit on the public purse. So we now have a situation where the Government gives a private company €500m to buy a new machine, that had it been done properly, the air corps would have been operating in the role after purchasing 3 helis for €40m in 2002. But they messed that up, and we are where we are.
The air corps have no role whatsoever in flying Coast guard helicopters, however they do operate the 2 fixed wing search aircraft, the Casa. They also operate the air ambulance helicopter. Another role which a civilian operater has as yet failed to offer for a reasonable cost.

They have had no "huge funding boost" since the armoured personell carriers were bought, and that was in 2001. All purchases since have been made via savings in their allocated budget, which has been reduced every year since 2001.

Potential-Monke

Deleted User wrote: »

Don't take this the wrong way, but as a law-abiding, tax-paying, upstanding member of society (never had so much as a parking ticket), the reason I dislike the guards is that I've met one too many of them who seem to find it worth their while to waste their time harassing me for no good reason.

It also makes me question the 'lack of resources' line. Some of the nonsense I've had from guards in my time is ridiculous.

I have huge sympathy for front-line workers and I can only imagine the ****e you have to put up with every day. But you don't do yourselves any favours sometimes.

Not making excuses, but for everyone 1 of those Gardai, there are hundreds upon hundreds of others who are not like that. You don't see them because they're not hassling you. In every job you will have the people who are wasters, doing the easy stuff and on power trips. That includes the Gardai. But they are the ones you see. You don't the the thousands of other Gardai who are busting their balls to keep the name of the force in good standing. But it doesn't matter how hard they do it, all it takes is 1 bollix to ruin it for everyone else.

Just like you rarely hear of the Garda who risked his life to save people from a burning building (which is a very regular occurrence), or the Garda who successfully stopped yet another violent domestic situation, or public order incident, before matters got worse. But you will hear of nearly every incident where someone was assaulted by a Garda.

I constantly tell people that if they're treated unfairly by a Garda to report them. They are making my life, and the life of the high majority of other members, that much harder. I deliberately go out of my way to ensure that every action i take does not make me look like a bully, or someone on a power trip. Unfortunately, that now includes not doing as much as i would have been doing only 2 years ago (as in pro-active policing - don't have time for it now).

There are literally thousands of incidents which Gardai respond to each year, but the media covers a minuscule fraction of the good stories, and every bad story. It makes it look like we're nothing but power mad bullies with nothing better to do, when the opposite is fact. Good news doesn't sell. Scandal does. We're constantly reminded, by management and media, that the slightest cock up could result in jail time for us, as as we are Gardai we should have known better, but when we're assaulted it's expected as part of the job. Double standards completely against us, is it any wonder we just don't care anymore?

AlekSmart

coolhandluke wrote: »

What do you expect when you are dealing with this Grade A spoofer.....

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/shatter-hits-out-at-those-stuck-in-policing-past-3308937.html

How many frontline members has he ever really talked to ? All down through the ages i'm sure generals have said their troops are just fine.....

As a non-Garda reading through some of the posts here,I can't help wondering if the decision to retain Commissioner Cullinan in the circumstances was'nt a flawed one ?

I'm actually wondering if the entire process of selecting the Commissioner should be reviewed,firstly to move towards a Competency focused selection and secondly to a younger age profile ?

From what I can glean,the ordinary "poor bloody garda" is adrift within a leaderless force....is this accurate ?

Whilst I can see huge difficulties currently existing within the force I am also more than certain that at some stage,some Government will have to appoint a Minister for Justice with enough interest and focus to ask searching questions of his/her Senior Departmental Officials,who,AFAICS,retain a very firm grip on Law Enforcement procedures in Ireland.

How any Minister or Departmental Official can stand over this sort of Court antics is beyond me..

The convict only pleads guilty to Manslaughter on the morning of his trial,but I struggle to comprehend how this individual perpretated anything other than Slaughter on his victim.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/courts/thug-gets-13-years-in-jail-for-beating-teen-like-a-rag-doll-until-he-died-3333698.html

A witness told gardai she saw Ward “bouncing” Mr Dorr's head off the road up to ten times and kicking him in the head a number of times. She said Mr Dorr was “like a rag doll and was totally unresponsive.”

Another witness gave a graphic account to gardai, saying it was a “continuous beating with vicious kicking and punching.”

A third witness said he saw a “fella on the ground who looked like he was lifeless and a man kicking and stomping on his head.” He said Ward was “banging” Mr Dorr's head off the wheel of a parked car. Ward constantly denied to gardai he was at the scene, despite his DNA being found on a cigarette found at the scene and his DNA on Mr Dore's T-shirt.

Mr Justice Carney sentenced Ward to 16 years with the final three years suspended and ordered that Ward undergo 18 months’ post-release supervision and to keep away from the Dorr family.

Judge Carney has been very forthright concerning how his sentencing options are seriously restricted by the inexplicable and hugely contentious decisions of the Supreme Court in relation to sentencing.

I am also very curious as to why Judge Carney would find it necessary to include the "Keep Away" stricture in the judgement,something which will always fall to the Gardai to monitor and implement.

This case,and many others all go towards making me feel very uncertain that the Irish State has enough regard for it's law abiding citizens,and those working to support and protect them.

I truly believe that Leadership and Committment at the Top is notably lacking.

judoman

AlekSmart wrote: »

This case,and many others all go towards making me feel very uncertain that the Irish State has enough regard for it's law abiding citizens,and those working to support and protect them.

I truly believe that Leadership and Committment at the Top is notably lacking.

Ireland is no different from the United Kingdom in that respect.

Alfasudcrazy

Last year I could not have read this thread as it was too depressing but now that I am retired since November it is a bit easier but still hard. I identify with all the comments stated here and they reflect the general position of most gardai. I was a sergeant and in particular I think the position of sergeants in the force today is dire.
Most Gardai get paid more than sergeants now as Gardai are sent to various places now and again and can claim allowances wheras Sergeants mainly are stuck in their local station. Similarly any overtime that is going will mainly go to gardai.

Sergeants are now so overloaded with responsibility it is beyond the possible. All responsibility has been removed from Gardai and landed on the sergeants lap who get abused by gardai, inspectors and superintendents alike with no support whatsoever.
The attitude of some junior gardai is also a cause of despair - many are indifferent to the concerns of the public and not too bothered if they don't get their paperwork right or sent in on time.
the new shift arrangements are a nighmare and we have to put up with all this for less money - no thanks. I gladly walked out the door - something I always thought would be very hard for me as I used to enjoy the job until the last few years.

Pappa Charlie

Alfasudcrazy wrote: »

Last year I could not have read this thread as it was too depressing but now that I am retired since November it is a bit easier but still hard. I identify with all the comments stated here and they reflect the general position of most gardai. I was a sergeant and in particular I think the position of sergeants in the force today is dire.
Most Gardai get paid more than sergeants now as Gardai are sent to various places now and again and can claim allowances wheras Sergeants mainly are stuck in their local station. Similarly any overtime that is going will mainly go to gardai.

Sergeants are now so overloaded with responsibility it is beyond the possible. All responsibility has been removed from Gardai and landed on the sergeants lap who get abused by gardai, inspectors and superintendents alike with no support whatsoever.
The attitude of some junior gardai is also a cause of despair - many are indifferent to the concerns of the public and not too bothered if they don't get their paperwork right or sent in on time.
the new shift arrangements are a nighmare and we have to put up with all this for less money - no thanks. I gladly walked out the door - something I always thought would be very hard for me as I used to enjoy the job until the last few years.

It's a thankless job from those I see in it. The skipper is the meat in the sandwich, strenghting the **** that goes up and softening the **** that comes down. Best of luck in retirement.

Potential-Monke

Alfasudcrazy wrote: »

Sergeants are now so overloaded with responsibility it is beyond the possible. All responsibility has been removed from Gardai and landed on the sergeants lap who get abused by gardai, inspectors and superintendents alike with no support whatsoever.
The attitude of some junior gardai is also a cause of despair - many are indifferent to the concerns of the public and not too bothered if they don't get their paperwork right or sent in on time.
the new shift arrangements are a nighmare and we have to put up with all this for less money - no thanks. I gladly walked out the door - something I always thought would be very hard for me as I used to enjoy the job until the last few years.

Congratulations on the retirement. Sad to see a senior member go, but understandable and is something i would do if i was in the same position.

But, and i want to bring the highlighted part to attention, i can honestly say I have not seen that carry on where i'm stationed. I've seen Garda rank stand up for themselves more than usual, but it also goes both ways. In particular, 2 Sergeants who i've had the displeasure of working under would have been fired ages ago for bullying, with brass completely (and to some extent, the GRA) ignoring the facts. A unit is as good as it's Sergeant, and with a bad Sergeant you'll have a bad unit. And it has a knock on effect, meaning if the same unit get a good Sergeant it will be hard for that Sergeant to control the unit and get it back to being good.

What we need is a cohesive force, one that will stand together. As it stands, we have a serious "Us Against Them" attitude. Gardai given extra work and less time to investigate, resulting in reprimands and reduced care/morale on the member involved. Sergeants overloaded with work and the "Sh!t flows down" attitude, plus members of Sergeant rank only interested in promotion and will do anything/screw over the unit to get it. Inspectors who seem to have forgotten what it's like to be on the frontline, and again only interested in self preservation/promotion. Super/Chief ranks who live in the same world as Judges and care only about stats over the safety of their members. The GRA/AGSI who are limited by what they can do. Is it any wonder the moral is, what i thought was at, rock bottom, but it still seems to be getting worse.

I don't know the solution, but it starts on the ground. If you can't get the frontline members on board, then nothing else will work out. 60 hour weeks was a stupid idea, and 60 hours is the minimum, with members being caught at the end of a shift, court on days off, etc. And with the crossover we were promised that time to investigate our own incidents, and instead bass now have these great ideas which makes more work and even less time for the members to carry out their duties. To tell you the truth, i'm sick sh!t of it, and as previously stated if i could go, i would.

bravestar

Potential-Monke wrote: »

Congratulations on the retirement. Sad to see a senior member go, but understandable and is something i would do if i was in the same position.

But, and i want to bring the highlighted part to attention, i can honestly say I have not seen that carry on where i'm stationed. I've seen Garda rank stand up for themselves more than usual, but it also goes both ways. In particular, 2 Sergeants who i've had the displeasure of working under would have been fired ages ago for bullying, with brass completely (and to some extent, the GRA) ignoring the facts. A unit is as good as it's Sergeant, and with a bad Sergeant you'll have a bad unit. And it has a knock on effect, meaning if the same unit get a good Sergeant it will be hard for that Sergeant to control the unit and get it back to being good.

What we need is a cohesive force, one that will stand together. As it stands, we have a serious "Us Against Them" attitude. Gardai given extra work and less time to investigate, resulting in reprimands and reduced care/morale on the member involved. Sergeants overloaded with work and the "Sh!t flows down" attitude, plus members of Sergeant rank only interested in promotion and will do anything/screw over the unit to get it. Inspectors who seem to have forgotten what it's like to be on the frontline, and again only interested in self preservation/promotion. Super/Chief ranks who live in the same world as Judges and care only about stats over the safety of their members. The GRA/AGSI who are limited by what they can do. Is it any wonder the moral is, what i thought was at, rock bottom, but it still seems to be getting worse.

I don't know the solution, but it starts on the ground. If you can't get the frontline members on board, then nothing else will work out. 60 hour weeks was a stupid idea, and 60 hours is the minimum, with members being caught at the end of a shift, court on days off, etc. And with the crossover we were promised that time to investigate our own incidents, and instead bass now have these great ideas which makes more work and even less time for the members to carry out their duties. To tell you the truth, i'm sick sh!t of it, and as previously stated if i could go, i would.

Well said PM but I disagree with one point, it doesn't need to start on the ground. It starts at the top.

There are no bad troops. There are only bad leaders. - Brigadier General S.L.A. Marshall

Pappa Charlie

bravestar wrote: »

Well said PM but I disagree with one point, it doesn't need to start on the ground. It starts at the top.

There are no bad troops. There are only bad leaders. - Brigadier General S.L.A. Marshall

No offence but general Marshall must have been a long way from the front line, there are plenty of bad troops being carried by good ones on every unit!

bravestar

Pappa Charlie wrote: »

No offence but general Marshall must have been a long way from the front line, there are plenty of bad troops being carried by good ones on every unit!

The better the leadership, the less of them there would be.

Pappa Charlie

bravestar wrote: »

The better the leadership, the less of them there would be.

True, but there has to be a willingness to deal with them by senior management or the skipper is hung out to dry as I've seen happen over the years, the real problem is higher up IMO