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"You've two days, get your stuff and get out"

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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,342 ✭✭✭tara73


    op, out of interest, what makes someone pay rent in cash? and worse, not getting receipts for it?
    I can't see any good reason for a tenant to pay rent in cash additionally without getting receipts.

    the only reason I can imagine is some dodgy agreements for both parties beforehand ...cheaper rent for accepting or putting a blind eye on no prtb registration...???

    completely agree with bostonb, accepting such renting conditions just keeps bad landlords in business. not much sympathy for those tenants either and no wonder it almost always ends in a mess!


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,222 ✭✭✭bigneacy


    tara73 wrote: »
    op, out of interest, what makes someone pay rent in cash? and worse, not getting receipts for it?
    I can't see any good reason for a tenant to pay rent in cash additionally without getting receipts.

    the only reason I can imagine is some dodgy agreements for both parties beforehand ...cheaper rent for accepting or putting a blind eye on no prtb registration...???

    completely agree with bostonb, accepting such renting conditions just keeps bad landlords in business. not much sympathy for those tenants either and no wonder it almost always ends in a mess!

    Started out paying rent via bank, then due to my job it didn't suit to do it that way anymore. Cash was best for me so that's why we did it that way. Not some dodgy agreement actually, we asked her for receipts always and she always said "yeah, next month"

    The reason we stuck it out as long as we did is because we did (and still do) love the house. We hate moving and for the sake of the kids (the older one absolutely LOVES it here. He is heartbroken to be leaving, we had to bribe him with new bunk beds.) we didn't want to be like the travellers moving every few months. We had moved in here intending to stay for 5 or 6 years until we had saved enough to build our own place. We searched long and hard to find this place and we were very reluctant to move... We decorated the house how we liked it and even done a nursery for our daughter for when she was born. So that's why we didn't move out and that's why we "keep landlords like her in business".

    I'm sorry if you don't have much sympathy for us but we thought we were doing right by not moving our kids again, we thought we could stick it out but the latest episode was the straw that broke the camels back, and now through her ignorance she has lost quiet tenants who always pay rent in full and on time, who were settling in for the next half decade. And she'll be getting a bit of extra attention from the PRTB and revenue commissioners for her trouble.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,705 ✭✭✭✭Tigger


    bigneacy wrote: »
    Started out paying rent via bank, then due to my job it didn't suit to do it that way anymore. Cash was best for me so that's why we did it that way. Not some dodgy agreement actually, we asked her for receipts always and she always said "yeah, next month"

    The reason we stuck it out as long as we did is because we did (and still do) love the house. We hate moving and for the sake of the kids (the older one absolutely LOVES it here. He is heartbroken to be leaving, we had to bribe him with new bunk beds.) we didn't want to be like the travellers moving every few months. We had moved in here intending to stay for 5 or 6 years until we had saved enough to build our own place. We searched long and hard to find this place and we were very reluctant to move... We decorated the house how we liked it and even done a nursery for our daughter for when she was born. So that's why we didn't move out and that's why we "keep landlords like her in business".

    I'm sorry if you don't have much sympathy for us but we thought we were doing right by not moving our kids again, we thought we could stick it out but the latest episode was the straw that broke the camels back, and now through her ignorance she has lost quiet tenants who always pay rent in full and on time, who were settling in for the next half decade. And she'll be getting a bit of extra attention from the PRTB and revenue commissioners for her trouble.

    as i said earlier
    needs must

    ye are great tenants and its her loss


  • Registered Users Posts: 443 ✭✭gerarda


    Make sure to do the old 'fish in the curtain pole' routine before you go!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    bigneacy wrote: »
    S...we did (and still do) love the house. ...

    Which bit, the fact its a fridge, its get robbed or its a fire hazard, or the abusive LL.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 78,402 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    gerarda wrote: »
    Make sure to do the old 'fish in the curtain pole' routine before you go!
    Advocating criminal damage isn't acceptable.


  • Registered Users Posts: 78,402 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    OP, go spend €100 on a fire blanket, fire extinguisher and a fire smoke alarms for the sake of your children.

    Talk to Threshold and consider moving sooner rather than later.

    You might also talk to the housing inspectors in the council housing department, the PRTB and the Revenue.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,010 ✭✭✭dazed+confused


    I don't want to do the cliché "Won't somebody think of the children" because this is way too serious a situatuion to be frivolous. I know I'm being Captain Obvious here, but having children makes situations like this so much worse. I hope it all works out okay OP.


  • Registered Users Posts: 604 ✭✭✭Lanaier


    gerarda wrote: »
    Make sure to do the old 'fish in the curtain pole' routine before you go!

    Don't stoop to the LL's level.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,886 ✭✭✭Darlughda


    BostonB wrote: »
    .....
    But the real question its, why on earth you've stayed there is you had all that hassle the whole time. That makes no sense. If BER and basic fire equipment was fundamental requirement you shouldn't have moved in, in the first place either.

    If I was you I'd do the same thing. I'd just have done it back in Nov, or not moved in in the first place.
    BostonB wrote: »
    So you rented somewhere thats not registered with the PRTB, and has all these issues from the start.

    You're keeping LL like this in business.
    BostonB wrote: »
    He should stop renting from such LL to start with.

    Well, its grand making those statements, BB, the fact is if you are in desperate need of a place on a certain budget, you just can't be demanding certain stuff, esp like BER certs, despite how legal your entitelment is.

    Its not fair to throw the owness on the tenant when they may be competing with others on a very limited budget. This has always been the problem with landlord/tenant viewpoints.

    OP, It sounds like you are part 4 tenancy, go to threshold immediately, do not be forced out of your home by a rogue landlord.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    Darlughda wrote: »
    ....you just can't be demanding certain stuff, esp like BER certs, despite how legal your entitelment is...

    ...OP, It sounds like you are part 4 tenancy, go to threshold immediately, do not be forced out of your home by a rogue landlord.

    You say you can't demand the legal entitlement, but then demand exact that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,222 ✭✭✭bigneacy


    Victor wrote: »
    OP, go spend €100 on a fire blanket, fire extinguisher and a fire smoke alarms for the sake of your children.

    Talk to Threshold and consider moving sooner rather than later.

    You might also talk to the housing inspectors in the council housing department, the PRTB and the Revenue.

    Hi Victor, we own a fire blanket and a set of fire alarms, both our cars also have these... The point I was making was she didn't provide these. The house we are moving into next Wednesday has a security alarm and fire alarm
    System hard wired into the property. On inspection I found 2 sets of fire blankets and extinguishers. New LL seems to want to bend over backwards for us and is also aware of situation with current LL


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 857 ✭✭✭FetchTheGin


    bigneacy wrote: »
    Hi Victor, we own a fire blanket and a set of fire alarms, both our cars also have these... The point I was making was she didn't provide these. The house we are moving into next Wednesday has a security alarm and fire alarm
    System hard wired into the property. On inspection I found 2 sets of fire blankets and extinguishers. New LL seems to want to bend over backwards for us and is also aware of situation with current LL

    It is a renters market out there, any amount of good properties are going begging.

    I would seriously think about going the legal route with this LL though, how many more families must she have treated like crap.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    The legal route about fire blanket and a set of fire alarms?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,222 ✭✭✭bigneacy


    BostonB wrote: »
    The legal route about fire blanket and a set of fire alarms?

    I think he means the legal route to reclaim our deposit as she didn't adhere to the terms of the lease or the terms & conditions of a private rental agreement as defined by the Residential Tenancies Act 2004, and to a lesser degree, the Landlord and Tenant Acts 1967 to 1994. The house was rented after 1/12/09, so therefore all parts of these statutes are enforceable.

    Regardless, we are not going the legal route and will not be pursuing her for deposit, seeing as we have refused to pay our last months rent. We will, however be sending a complaint to the PRTB alerting them of the tenancy and we will also claim tax back on the basis of the rented house, and in doing so will be reporting her affairs to the Revenue Commissioners.

    If she contacts us again before we leave we will advise her to speak to our solicitor. We have all recorded with Threshold and with our EA, who are refusing to do business with her again.

    EDIT: We have sent Notice of Termination by registered post, we have sent copies of all correspondence to ourselves by post in a sealed envelope which can be opened by an officer of the court if the need ever arises. We will be taking photo and video evidence of the house and its pristine condition before we leave also. She'll have nothing on us.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,342 ✭✭✭tara73


    bigneacy wrote: »
    I think he means the legal route to reclaim our deposit as she didn't adhere to the terms of the lease or the terms & conditions of a private rental agreement as defined by the Residential Tenancies Act 2004, and to a lesser degree, the Landlord and Tenant Acts 1967 to 1994. The house was rented after 1/12/09, so therefore all parts of these statutes are enforceable.

    can somebody clarify (as genuiely interested) how could this be relevant if there's no written contract nor proof of paid rent??
    bigneacy wrote: »
    Regardless, we are not going the legal route and will not be pursuing her for deposit, seeing as we have refused to pay our last months rent. We will, however be sending a complaint to the PRTB alerting them of the tenancy and we will also claim tax back on the basis of the rented house, and in doing so will be reporting her affairs to the Revenue Commissioners.

    who can proof you paid rent? It could be word against word, she stating she never got the rent anymore. from what I read you just paid rent the first month into the account, then for some not retracable reasons in cash without getting a receipt.

    don't get me wrong, I'm not supporting this LL's behaviour, but as somebody else mentioned, throwing stones in a glass house isn't always a smart idea.
    bigneacy wrote: »
    We have all recorded with Threshold...

    again question: treshold is dealing with situations like this where's no contract or proof of paid rent?


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,916 ✭✭✭✭iguana


    tara73 wrote: »
    can somebody clarify (as genuiely interested) how could this be relevant if there's no written contract nor proof of paid rent??



    who can proof you paid rent? It could be word against word, she stating she never got the rent anymore. from what I read you just paid rent the first month into the account, then for some not retracable reasons in cash without getting a receipt.

    don't get me wrong, I'm not supporting this LL's behaviour, but as somebody else mentioned, throwing stones in a glass house isn't always a smart idea.



    again question: treshold is dealing with situations like this where's no contract or proof of paid rent?

    There is a contract, after 6 months of renting a residence you automatically move on to a Part 4 tenancy agreement if no other contract exists. The OP will have plenty of proof that he lived there as all utilities bills for example will be in his or his wife's name.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,518 ✭✭✭OS119


    tara73 wrote: »
    ...again question: treshold is dealing with situations like this where's no contract or proof of paid rent?

    the OP can prove they've been living at the address since November - his bank, employer, childrens schools, insurance companies etc - will all provide written proof of that. in the face of that evidence, no judge is going to believe that they've been living there for 11 months, with only one months rent paid, and that its taken the LL 10 months to decide to evict them.

    the additional evidence - the lack of PRTB registration, the probable lack of Revenue notification, and the shoddy state of the house - is going to scream 'unreliable witness' and 'slum landlord' to the judge, he's not going to believe a word the LL says.


  • Registered Users Posts: 289 ✭✭swirlser


    bigneacy wrote: »
    And she'll be getting a bit of extra attention from the PRTB and revenue commissioners for her trouble.

    Please do make this happen :) don't even wait, letters posted today....


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,342 ✭✭✭tara73


    iguana wrote: »
    There is a contract, after 6 months of renting a residence you automatically move on to a Part 4 tenancy agreement if no other contract exists. The OP will have plenty of proof that he lived there as all utilities bills for example will be in his or his wife's name.

    I didn't questioned that he didn't live there or the LL claiming he didn't live there.
    my point is the nonexistent proof of any paid money/rent towards the LL!
    I strongly doubt there's proof of a paid deposit.

    so how can a cashflow be reported to revenue if there's no proof of this cashflow??


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  • Registered Users Posts: 51,908 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    iguana wrote: »
    There is a contract, after 6 months of renting a residence you automatically move on to a Part 4 tenancy agreement if no other contract exists. The OP will have plenty of proof that he lived there as all utilities bills for example will be in his or his wife's name.

    Exactly and he should take a claim to the Small Claims Court to get his deposit back. I think its only 15e to do so. He seems to have been treated very badly although i would like to hear the LL's side too.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,222 ✭✭✭bigneacy


    tara73 wrote: »
    I didn't questioned that he didn't live there or the LL claiming he didn't live there.
    my point is the nonexistent proof of any paid money/rent towards the LL!
    I strongly doubt there's proof of a paid deposit.

    so how can a cashflow be reported to revenue if there's no proof of this cashflow??

    Surely it would be up to her to prove she didn't get this money - the revenue don't have to prove their entitlement to tax you.

    The initial leg-work of getting deposits and first month rent all went through an estate agency.
    Exactly and he should take a claim to the Small Claims Court to get his deposit back. I think its only 15e to do so. He seems to have been treated very badly although i would like to hear the LL's side too.

    Unfortunately the problem with these things is you only hear one side (i'm sure her family have all already heard how we have her house ruined and never paid a days rent and have the placed decorated with swastikas and are also running a puppy farm and voted fianna fail three times)- I can only give my side, but I know my argument is completely truthful. The LL phoned the Estate agency and tried to tell them we were refusing to pay rent and she was going to kick us out and she wanted them to rent the house out for her. The EA told her they knew the full story already, as we had been in contact and they would rather not take her as a client based on her actions. From what I hear she told them to "go **** themselves" and that she would "sink them". Lovely woman.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    Exactly and he should take a claim to the Small Claims Court to get his deposit back. I think its only 15e to do so. He seems to have been treated very badly although i would like to hear the LL's side too.

    Why did you post that. The SCC doesn't deal with this http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/justice/courts_system/small_claims_court.html


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    bigneacy wrote: »
    Surely it would be up to her to prove she didn't get this money....

    Proving you paid money is one thing. But exactly how can you "prove" you didn't get money?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,222 ✭✭✭bigneacy


    BostonB wrote: »
    Proving you paid money is one thing. But exactly how can you "prove" you didn't get money?

    Well, she can't - even though there is no receipts the fact that we have been living there for so long, that we served her notice (not vice-versa), that the bills are all in our name and have all been paid, that we paid first months rent and deposit and got receipts for that - all shows that we have been living there for 11 months.

    That coupled with our declaration to the Revenue Commisioners should be evidence enough to warrant an investigation.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    OS119 wrote: »
    ... the shoddy state of the house - is going to scream 'unreliable witness' and 'slum landlord' to the judge, he's not going to believe a word the LL says.
    bigneacy wrote: »
    ....The reason we stuck it out as long as we did is because we did (and still do) love the house.....We decorated the house how we liked it and even done a nursery for our daughter for when she was born....

    Ouch...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    bigneacy wrote: »
    Well, she can't - even though there is no receipts...we paid first months rent and deposit and got receipts for that....

    Thats all you can prove. She could have just stuffed the money in the cornflakes box. There may be no paper trail to find at all.

    Lets flip it around. How does a LL prove a tenant hasn't paid their rent.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,222 ✭✭✭bigneacy


    BostonB wrote: »
    Ouch...

    LOL :D I'm sure OS119 was refering to the lack of repairs the landlord did for us, rather than our taste in decor...
    BostonB wrote: »
    Thats all you can prove. She could have just stuffed the money in the cornflakes box. There may be no paper trail to find at all.

    Lets flip it around. How does a LL prove a tenant hasn't paid their rent.

    But there's room for common sense in the (hypothetical) court room/tribunal - they're never going to accept the LL's argument that there was never rent paid, that she was happy to have non-paying tenants for almost a year.

    The Rev. Com. are (i'm sure?) well versed in proving the assets and various income streams of individuals against their wishes. That's their thing! :)

    A LL doesn't have to prove that, she has to start proceedings to evict and if they contest them they will have to prove that they have paid.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    From the Irish Independent. (so maybe completely wrong).
    It recently emerged that the State paid more than €250m last year to thousands of unregistered landlords.
    Half of the landlords who get rent supplement payments -- which can be as high as €1,100 a month -- from the Department of Social Protection do not have their properties registered with PRTB, despite being legally obliged to do so.

    From the Irish Times....
    the PRTB has great difficulty in identifying non-compliant landlords. It issued 16,000 enforcement letters last year and secured seven criminal convictions.

    Not sure how much faith I'd have in the "system"


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,342 ✭✭✭tara73


    bigneacy wrote: »
    Well, she can't - even though there is no receipts the fact that we have been living there for so long, that we served her notice (not vice-versa), that the bills are all in our name and have all been paid, that we paid first months rent and deposit and got receipts for that - all shows that we have been living there for 11 months.

    That coupled with our declaration to the Revenue Commisioners should be evidence enough to warrant an investigation.

    really wondering why everybody is so sure that she would be in the wrong if it goes to court. and that she has to prove she didn't get the money. again: how do you prove you didn't get something?????

    is there any exemplary case or treshold/prtb told that this is the norm?

    anyway, the point I'm trying to make is, why people are still renting properties without a proper written agreement and still paying rent in cash and then crying out when the trouble is there.

    there are normally no advantages for paying rent in cash, and sorry, op, you havn't explained the fact why you did it (except that you're unemployed...) at all and you don't have to but your side of the story still smells fishy to me as well...


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