"You've two days, get your stuff and get out"

bigneacy

LL said this to us about an hour ago. Sorry for the long post. And advice would be quite welcome.

We moved in back in November, we have had problems from day one with the landlord. She promised things and never done them, she dragged her feet on fixing things like frozen pipes and broken boilers for 3 and 5 weeks respectively, leaving us without water and heat for weeks over the big freeze last winter.

She also refuses to answer the phone or respond to texts sometimes.

We have paid our rent dutifully each month and we are quiet, respectful tenants who always consulted her before painting or hanging shelves etc.

At the very basic she has failed to provide BER and basic fire equipment. We contacted her 3 weeks ago about getting the house alarm fixed, after a break in attempt, destruction of our property in the garden and attempted robbery of our cars. She strung us along for three or four weeks, during which time she pissed off on holidays for 10 days.

We delayed rent this month to get a final answer on the alarm, after 4 days and no rent she texted us yesterday saying she would be round for it - i told her I would like to discuss alarm, she told me she wanted rent only. I asked her straight out would the alarm be fixed - no reply.

This morning I sent off notice of termination and I also included a separate sheet stating she could take our security deposit as final months rent (I know we can't technically do this, but she has a reputation for keeping deposits unfairly, so I didn't want to get stung)

This evening she called round (she hasnt received notice yet as it was sent by registered post and will arrive in the morning). She demanded rent, I told her I would not be paying, she could take it out of deposit, we would be gone by 2nd October - she started claiming we couldnt do that - we would be here rent free, deposit is her money not ours.

Also said "get your stuff, get out in 2 days" (knowing full well we have a 6 year old and a 14 week old to move also)

What is our position here? I have a 14 point list of how she was in breach of contract from day 1. Were we right to do as we have done? (legally I know the "keep the deposit" thing isn't kosher)

My OH is quite nervous now, thinking we are in the wrong and they can pursue us. Also we never got a letter from PRTB stating we were registered, is this a factor also?

Tigger

i would be out within the month
she seems to think that the deposit is hers so just do what yer gut tells you

there are good landlords out there btw i've been renting for (christ) 16 years ad the last 10 have been brilliant (first 6 were a learning curve)

Thinkingaboutit

The deposit isn't hers, not remotely.

Michael Weston

She seem's like a total cnut, I'm sure you're concerned bearing in mind you've young kids. Do you keep a signed rentbook ? She also can't assume its her god given right to keep your deposit .

bigneacy

Unfortunately no rent book - rent paid in cash, no receipts.

KERSPLAT!

Do bank reciepts count? As in, I pay cash into LLs account and bank give me reciept with amount, date and LLs account number?

@op, do you pay into account or cash direct to LL?

bigneacy

IPAM wrote: »

Do bank reciepts count? As in, I pay cash into LLs account and bank give me reciept with amount, date and LLs account number?

@op, do you pay into account or cash direct to LL?

Direct to LL....

Knasher

I wouldn't be too worried about her pursuing you anyway. If she kicks you out without sufficient notice then you can sue her for false eviction, seeing as you technically aren't paying your rent the required notice is 28 days. Secondly if you never received a letter from the PTRB, it probably means the landlord never register you and will face a pretty hefty fine if they ever find out, around €3000 afaik.

The only problem is I'm not sure what the burden of proof is with regards to how long you have been living there. I'd imagine that if you had bills in your name at the address since November they would count, but I'm not 100%.

Not sure what the best move is though, you seem to be holding all the cards to me, but you probably don't want the hassle of getting home to find the locks changed even if you have the option of suing her for damages later on.

Always a useful link about your rights with regards to tenancy: http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/types_of_tenancy.html. According to that your type of tenancy is what is called a periodic tenancy, and it does fall under those rules even without a signed lease.

wench

Give Threshold a call, they should be able to help you deal with her.
http://www.threshold.ie/menu.asp?menu=102

D3PO

Tell her your not going anywhere. you will be out at the end of the month and if she doesnt like it tough that you know your rights

Tell her if she attempts to remove you before then you will ensure she gets done for an illegal eviction

Print these out and hand them to her highlight the bits where there have been awards to the tennants in respect to illegal evictions. Tell her you will make sure she ends up out of pocket is she attempts an illegal eviction and tell her her tax affairs better be in orde rbecasue you will be also reporting the tennancy to the revenue commissioners

http://public.prtb.ie/DownloadDocs/Illegal%20Eviction1.pdf

http://public.prtb.ie/2011%20Disputes/Tribunals%202011/TR05.DR1006.2009/Tribunal%20Report.pdf

http://public.prtb.ie/2011%20Disputes/Tribunals%202011/TR369.DR372.2010/Tribunal%20Report.pdf

MagicMarker

Just to be safe, I would take pictures of the place before you leave, have proof that you left it in good condition(Assuming you will!).

BostonB

Theres very little she can do about you using the deposit, but you can't refuse rent. Deposit is not meant to be used as rent. Its meant to cover breakages, so in effect, you've not paid rent, and you've left her no money to over breakages. In theory she could raise this with the PRTB/Court if you leave her out of pocket.

Its debatable if you've broken your lease, if shes also broken it by not fixing things etc. In reality, if shes not out of pocket, theres no breakages etc, then shes nothing to complain about. I expect thats how the PRTB would see it.

But the real question its, why on earth you've stayed there is you had all that hassle the whole time. That makes no sense. If BER and basic fire equipment was fundamental requirement you shouldn't have moved in, in the first place either.

If I was you I'd do the same thing. I'd just have done it back in Nov, or not moved in in the first place.

Tigger

BostonB wrote: »

Theres very little she can do about you using the deposit, but you can't refuse rent. Deposit is not meant to be used as rent. Its meant to cover breakages, so in effect, you've not paid rent, and you've left her no money to over breakages. In theory she could raise this with the PRTB/Court if you leave her out of pocket.

she not regged with the prtb she dosen';t pay tax she dosen't provide reciepts and she dosen't provide a rent book

so lol

Its debatable if you've broken your lease, if shes also broken it by not fixing things etc. In reality, if shes not out of pocket, theres no breakages etc, then shes nothing to complain about. I expect thats how the PRTB would see it.

see above

But the real question its, why on earth you've stayed there is you had all that hassle the whole time. That makes no sense. If BER and basic fire equipment was fundamental requirement you shouldn't have moved in, in the first place either.

If I was you I'd do the same thing. I'd just have done it back in Nov, or not moved in in the first place.

needs must as the devil drives

BostonB

So you rented somewhere thats not registered with the PRTB, and has all these issues from the start.

You're keeping LL like this in business.

Monty Burnz

bigneacy wrote: »

Unfortunately no rent book - rent paid in cash, no receipts.

Don't do this.

By the way, make sure to let Revenue know that she is renting the place out, or she'll continue to stiff other taxpayers on her contributions, and will try to force the next tenant go without rent book, receipts, money lodged to bank account etc.

Magicmatilda

A dispute can be taken with PRTB regardless of if the landlord is registered. If the are not then they will most likely get a fine.
I agree with the above poster stay until your notice runs out and use the time to find somewhere else. If she tries to evict you give her the docs on illegal eviction. The PRTB don't look very favorably on illegal evictions.

D3PO

Magicmatilda wrote: »

A dispute can be taken with PRTB regardless of if the landlord is registered. If the are not then they will most likely get a fine.

Just to add to this. A tennant can make a dispute to the PRTB if the LL isnt registered.

A LL cannot take a tennant dispute to them in the same circumstance

Treehouse72

bigneacy wrote: »

Unfortunately no rent book - rent paid in cash, no receipts.

Whatever happens, you absolutely have to shop this pig to Revenue and whatever other statutory authorities she's not complying with (PTRB etc.)

I would be very confident she is not fully compliant and this would be not only a great way of getting back for her appalling behaviour, it is also a civic duty that you are compelled to perform for the good of the country. We cannot be carrying people like this.

You MUST do this.

BostonB

He should stop renting from such LL to start with.

jimmycrackcorm

Thinkingaboutit wrote: »

The deposit isn't hers, not remotely.

Unfortunately that does not prevent landlords from holding on to the deposit afterwards. The landlord cannot evict tenants ts even if they are not paying rent. The danger is that the landlord may simply come round and change the locks and how to deal with that.

The best course of action is to get a solicitor to write a letter outlining their responsibilities and the consequences of not undertaking these. It should also mention that you have the rent available to pay but also that the alarm requires repair.

The LL is chancing her arm without a leg to stand on.

BostonB

Legally a tenant can't withhold rent either, regardless of the reason. I don't think there is any way for a LL to evict a tenant, it has to go to court etc. That said the fine for doing an illegal eviction can far less than the cost of going a legal route and the loss of rent and clean up. That said most LL's complain but rarely do anything about tenants using the rent as the last months deposit. But because the system is so screwed up, many think this is the correct way do handle it.

bigneacy

BostonB wrote: »

Legally a tenant can't withhold rent either, regardless of the reason. I don't think there is any way for a LL to evict a tenant, it has to go to court etc. That said the fine for doing an illegal eviction can far less than the cost of going a legal route and the loss of rent and clean up. That said most LL's complain but rarely do anything about tenants using the rent as the last months deposit. But because the system is so screwed up, many think this is the correct way do handle it.

Just to be clear BostonB, I already stated in my OP that this isn't the correct way to do it, I don't and never believed it was, but weighing up my options it was the path of least resistence - better than having to chase her through the PRTB system for the next 18-24 months and having to prove this that and the other. I'd rather her have to prove me wrong than vice-versa.

Mister Dread

Unfortunately until there is a deposit retention scheme the best option is nearly always to use your last months deposit as rent. It might not be the legal way but there are very little possible legal repercussions.

BostonB

Oh I know and thats fair enough.

I'm just making the point that ist throwing stones in a glass house to complain about someone else not following correct process if I don't do it myself.

seaniefitz

Whatever happens, you absolutely have to shop this pig to Revenue and whatever other statutory authorities she's not complying with (PTRB etc.)

I would be very confident she is not fully compliant and this would be not only a great way of getting back for her appalling behaviour, it is also a civic duty that you are compelled to perform for the good of the country. We cannot be carrying people like this.

You MUST do this.

i agree!

paul71

It is posible but unlikely that the LL is declaring the rental income to the revenue, even if they are not registered with the PRTB, still a call to them would not go astray.

jsd1004

paul71 wrote: »

It is posible but unlikely that the LL is declaring the rental income to the revenue, even if they are not registered with the PRTB, still a call to them would not go astray.

As 75% of rental and such items as depreciation can be written off against mortgage interest most LL's would be tax compliant as it costs very little if they have a mortgage. A lot however are not registered with PRTB

tayto lover

bigneacy wrote: »

Unfortunately no rent book - rent paid in cash, no receipts.

Report her to the taxman too.
Go to your local Citizens Advice office and get their help.
Ring the Garda station and have it on record that she is threatening to evict you and get them to keep a record of it. They wont get involved as its a civil matter but if you tell them that she threatened you they will have a word with her. Get in first is the name of the game. Keep a list of all your problems with her for the record.

FetchTheGin

Knasher wrote: »

Secondly if you never received a letter from the PTRB, it probably means the landlord never register you and will face a pretty hefty fine if they ever find out, around €3000 afaik.

Please report her to them OP. For us? :pac:

Mister Dread

jsd1004 wrote: »

As 75% of rental and such items as depreciation can be written off against mortgage interest most LL's would be tax compliant as it costs very little if they have a mortgage. A lot however are not registered with PRTB

The type of landlord the OP describes sounds like one of the older school who are mortage free. They would be crucified by the taxman.

FutureGuy

Mister Dread wrote: »

The type of landlord the OP describes sounds like one of the older school who are mortage free. They would be crucified by the taxman.

This LL deserves to be reported. She sounds like an ignorant thundering b!tch.

tara73

op, out of interest, what makes someone pay rent in cash? and worse, not getting receipts for it?
I can't see any good reason for a tenant to pay rent in cash additionally without getting receipts.

the only reason I can imagine is some dodgy agreements for both parties beforehand ...cheaper rent for accepting or putting a blind eye on no prtb registration...???

completely agree with bostonb, accepting such renting conditions just keeps bad landlords in business. not much sympathy for those tenants either and no wonder it almost always ends in a mess!

bigneacy

tara73 wrote: »

op, out of interest, what makes someone pay rent in cash? and worse, not getting receipts for it?
I can't see any good reason for a tenant to pay rent in cash additionally without getting receipts.

the only reason I can imagine is some dodgy agreements for both parties beforehand ...cheaper rent for accepting or putting a blind eye on no prtb registration...???

completely agree with bostonb, accepting such renting conditions just keeps bad landlords in business. not much sympathy for those tenants either and no wonder it almost always ends in a mess!

Started out paying rent via bank, then due to my job it didn't suit to do it that way anymore. Cash was best for me so that's why we did it that way. Not some dodgy agreement actually, we asked her for receipts always and she always said "yeah, next month"

The reason we stuck it out as long as we did is because we did (and still do) love the house. We hate moving and for the sake of the kids (the older one absolutely LOVES it here. He is heartbroken to be leaving, we had to bribe him with new bunk beds.) we didn't want to be like the travellers moving every few months. We had moved in here intending to stay for 5 or 6 years until we had saved enough to build our own place. We searched long and hard to find this place and we were very reluctant to move... We decorated the house how we liked it and even done a nursery for our daughter for when she was born. So that's why we didn't move out and that's why we "keep landlords like her in business".

I'm sorry if you don't have much sympathy for us but we thought we were doing right by not moving our kids again, we thought we could stick it out but the latest episode was the straw that broke the camels back, and now through her ignorance she has lost quiet tenants who always pay rent in full and on time, who were settling in for the next half decade. And she'll be getting a bit of extra attention from the PRTB and revenue commissioners for her trouble.

Tigger

bigneacy wrote: »

Started out paying rent via bank, then due to my job it didn't suit to do it that way anymore. Cash was best for me so that's why we did it that way. Not some dodgy agreement actually, we asked her for receipts always and she always said "yeah, next month"

The reason we stuck it out as long as we did is because we did (and still do) love the house. We hate moving and for the sake of the kids (the older one absolutely LOVES it here. He is heartbroken to be leaving, we had to bribe him with new bunk beds.) we didn't want to be like the travellers moving every few months. We had moved in here intending to stay for 5 or 6 years until we had saved enough to build our own place. We searched long and hard to find this place and we were very reluctant to move... We decorated the house how we liked it and even done a nursery for our daughter for when she was born. So that's why we didn't move out and that's why we "keep landlords like her in business".

I'm sorry if you don't have much sympathy for us but we thought we were doing right by not moving our kids again, we thought we could stick it out but the latest episode was the straw that broke the camels back, and now through her ignorance she has lost quiet tenants who always pay rent in full and on time, who were settling in for the next half decade. And she'll be getting a bit of extra attention from the PRTB and revenue commissioners for her trouble.

as i said earlier
needs must

ye are great tenants and its her loss

gerarda

Make sure to do the old 'fish in the curtain pole' routine before you go!

BostonB

bigneacy wrote: »

S...we did (and still do) love the house. ...

Which bit, the fact its a fridge, its get robbed or its a fire hazard, or the abusive LL.

Victor

gerarda wrote: »

Make sure to do the old 'fish in the curtain pole' routine before you go!

Advocating criminal damage isn't acceptable.

Victor

OP, go spend €100 on a fire blanket, fire extinguisher and a fire smoke alarms for the sake of your children.

Talk to Threshold and consider moving sooner rather than later.

You might also talk to the housing inspectors in the council housing department, the PRTB and the Revenue.

dazed+confused

I don't want to do the cliché "Won't somebody think of the children" because this is way too serious a situatuion to be frivolous. I know I'm being Captain Obvious here, but having children makes situations like this so much worse. I hope it all works out okay OP.

Lanaier

gerarda wrote: »

Make sure to do the old 'fish in the curtain pole' routine before you go!

Don't stoop to the LL's level.

Darlughda

BostonB wrote: »

.....
But the real question its, why on earth you've stayed there is you had all that hassle the whole time. That makes no sense. If BER and basic fire equipment was fundamental requirement you shouldn't have moved in, in the first place either.

If I was you I'd do the same thing. I'd just have done it back in Nov, or not moved in in the first place.

BostonB wrote: »

So you rented somewhere thats not registered with the PRTB, and has all these issues from the start.

You're keeping LL like this in business.

BostonB wrote: »

He should stop renting from such LL to start with.

Well, its grand making those statements, BB, the fact is if you are in desperate need of a place on a certain budget, you just can't be demanding certain stuff, esp like BER certs, despite how legal your entitelment is.

Its not fair to throw the owness on the tenant when they may be competing with others on a very limited budget. This has always been the problem with landlord/tenant viewpoints.

OP, It sounds like you are part 4 tenancy, go to threshold immediately, do not be forced out of your home by a rogue landlord.

BostonB

Darlughda wrote: »

....you just can't be demanding certain stuff, esp like BER certs, despite how legal your entitelment is...

...OP, It sounds like you are part 4 tenancy, go to threshold immediately, do not be forced out of your home by a rogue landlord.

You say you can't demand the legal entitlement, but then demand exact that.

bigneacy

Victor wrote: »

OP, go spend €100 on a fire blanket, fire extinguisher and a fire smoke alarms for the sake of your children.

Talk to Threshold and consider moving sooner rather than later.

You might also talk to the housing inspectors in the council housing department, the PRTB and the Revenue.

Hi Victor, we own a fire blanket and a set of fire alarms, both our cars also have these... The point I was making was she didn't provide these. The house we are moving into next Wednesday has a security alarm and fire alarm
System hard wired into the property. On inspection I found 2 sets of fire blankets and extinguishers. New LL seems to want to bend over backwards for us and is also aware of situation with current LL

FetchTheGin

bigneacy wrote: »

Hi Victor, we own a fire blanket and a set of fire alarms, both our cars also have these... The point I was making was she didn't provide these. The house we are moving into next Wednesday has a security alarm and fire alarm
System hard wired into the property. On inspection I found 2 sets of fire blankets and extinguishers. New LL seems to want to bend over backwards for us and is also aware of situation with current LL

It is a renters market out there, any amount of good properties are going begging.

I would seriously think about going the legal route with this LL though, how many more families must she have treated like crap.

BostonB

The legal route about fire blanket and a set of fire alarms?

bigneacy

BostonB wrote: »

The legal route about fire blanket and a set of fire alarms?

I think he means the legal route to reclaim our deposit as she didn't adhere to the terms of the lease or the terms & conditions of a private rental agreement as defined by the Residential Tenancies Act 2004, and to a lesser degree, the Landlord and Tenant Acts 1967 to 1994. The house was rented after 1/12/09, so therefore all parts of these statutes are enforceable.

Regardless, we are not going the legal route and will not be pursuing her for deposit, seeing as we have refused to pay our last months rent. We will, however be sending a complaint to the PRTB alerting them of the tenancy and we will also claim tax back on the basis of the rented house, and in doing so will be reporting her affairs to the Revenue Commissioners.

If she contacts us again before we leave we will advise her to speak to our solicitor. We have all recorded with Threshold and with our EA, who are refusing to do business with her again.

EDIT: We have sent Notice of Termination by registered post, we have sent copies of all correspondence to ourselves by post in a sealed envelope which can be opened by an officer of the court if the need ever arises. We will be taking photo and video evidence of the house and its pristine condition before we leave also. She'll have nothing on us.

tara73

bigneacy wrote: »

I think he means the legal route to reclaim our deposit as she didn't adhere to the terms of the lease or the terms & conditions of a private rental agreement as defined by the Residential Tenancies Act 2004, and to a lesser degree, the Landlord and Tenant Acts 1967 to 1994. The house was rented after 1/12/09, so therefore all parts of these statutes are enforceable.

can somebody clarify (as genuiely interested) how could this be relevant if there's no written contract nor proof of paid rent??

bigneacy wrote: »

Regardless, we are not going the legal route and will not be pursuing her for deposit, seeing as we have refused to pay our last months rent. We will, however be sending a complaint to the PRTB alerting them of the tenancy and we will also claim tax back on the basis of the rented house, and in doing so will be reporting her affairs to the Revenue Commissioners.

who can proof you paid rent? It could be word against word, she stating she never got the rent anymore. from what I read you just paid rent the first month into the account, then for some not retracable reasons in cash without getting a receipt.

don't get me wrong, I'm not supporting this LL's behaviour, but as somebody else mentioned, throwing stones in a glass house isn't always a smart idea.

bigneacy wrote: »

We have all recorded with Threshold...

again question: treshold is dealing with situations like this where's no contract or proof of paid rent?

iguana

tara73 wrote: »

can somebody clarify (as genuiely interested) how could this be relevant if there's no written contract nor proof of paid rent??



who can proof you paid rent? It could be word against word, she stating she never got the rent anymore. from what I read you just paid rent the first month into the account, then for some not retracable reasons in cash without getting a receipt.

don't get me wrong, I'm not supporting this LL's behaviour, but as somebody else mentioned, throwing stones in a glass house isn't always a smart idea.



again question: treshold is dealing with situations like this where's no contract or proof of paid rent?

There is a contract, after 6 months of renting a residence you automatically move on to a Part 4 tenancy agreement if no other contract exists. The OP will have plenty of proof that he lived there as all utilities bills for example will be in his or his wife's name.

OS119

tara73 wrote: »

...again question: treshold is dealing with situations like this where's no contract or proof of paid rent?

the OP can prove they've been living at the address since November - his bank, employer, childrens schools, insurance companies etc - will all provide written proof of that. in the face of that evidence, no judge is going to believe that they've been living there for 11 months, with only one months rent paid, and that its taken the LL 10 months to decide to evict them.

the additional evidence - the lack of PRTB registration, the probable lack of Revenue notification, and the shoddy state of the house - is going to scream 'unreliable witness' and 'slum landlord' to the judge, he's not going to believe a word the LL says.

swirlser

bigneacy wrote: »

And she'll be getting a bit of extra attention from the PRTB and revenue commissioners for her trouble.

Please do make this happen don't even wait, letters posted today....

tara73

iguana wrote: »

There is a contract, after 6 months of renting a residence you automatically move on to a Part 4 tenancy agreement if no other contract exists. The OP will have plenty of proof that he lived there as all utilities bills for example will be in his or his wife's name.

I didn't questioned that he didn't live there or the LL claiming he didn't live there.
my point is the nonexistent proof of any paid money/rent towards the LL!
I strongly doubt there's proof of a paid deposit.

so how can a cashflow be reported to revenue if there's no proof of this cashflow??