Should Ireland Leave the EU?

The Corinthian

davekel wrote: »

Yes because we only know of 5% , the rest is waiting to be discovered .

How do you know we only know of 5% if the rest is undiscovered? Even were it only 5% it wouldn't give us a lot more. Where are you getting any of your facts, come to think of it?

Essentially you want us to bet the farm, as it were, on wishful thinking; not exactly the smartest move available, is it?

FreudianSlippers

davekel wrote: »

Yes because we only know of 5% , the rest is waiting to be discovered .

Thanks, I needed a laugh this morning.

Lockstep

davekel wrote: »

free movement of workers into ireland is leading to huge unemployment among native irish people stuggling to find employment because of the increased competition for jobs(especially low skilled jobs) , it only benefits the wealthy because it drives down labour costs.

It also gives others a chance to come here and look for a better life. My family left Ireland when I was a child and were able to do so thanks to the free movement of workers. I returned in 2007 and started working in Dunnes, nearly all the staff were Eastern European as they were willing to do the job unlike the Irish. Now economic migrants are increasingly leaving as our economy is so rubbish they can go elsewhere.

Your post just comes across as incoherent, bigoted and xenophobic rant.

DEY TURK ER JERBS

djpbarry

davekel wrote: »

to keep the social welfare class happy ?? come on do i need to mention NAMA property developer Joe O Reilly who owes the state 3 billion and is living it up in a 10million euro mansion being paid over 200 grand of tax payers money a year and all the other NAMA developers !...

€200,000 per annum? Wow. That would cover the cost of, what, 20 Jobseekers Benefit claims?

davekel wrote: »

free movement of workers into ireland is leading to huge unemployment among native irish people stuggling to find employment because of the increased competition for jobs...

So there's a direct correlation between rate of immigration and increase in unemployment rate?

RandomName2

oscarBravo wrote: »

Are you campaigning for the abolition of the European Parliament?

Not in isolation, obviously; however, I frankly don't think think it would make much intrinsic difference either way (although decreasing bureaucracy would be a loss).

View

djpbarry wrote: »

So there's a direct correlation between rate of immigration and increase in unemployment rate?

It would appear to be:
i) 2001-2007 - immigration increases, unemployment drops like a rock,
ii) 2008 onwards - immigration decreases, unemployment soars.

Immigrants would appear to help reduce unemployment.

The Corinthian

View wrote: »

It would appear to be:
i) 2001-2007 - immigration increases, unemployment drops like a rock,
ii) 2008 onwards - immigration decreases, unemployment soars.

Immigrants would appear to help reduce unemployment.

(Seriously though, what davekel came out with was dreadful xenophobic nonsense)

RandomName2

Lockstep wrote: »

It also gives others a chance to come here and look for a better life. My family left Ireland when I was a child and were able to do so thanks to the free movement of workers. I returned in 2007 and started working in Dunnes, nearly all the staff were Eastern European as they were willing to do the job unlike the Irish. Now economic migrants are increasingly leaving as our economy is so rubbish they can go elsewhere.

Your post just comes across as incoherent, bigoted and xenophobic rant.

DEY TURK ER JERBS

Dey turk er jerbs can actually be a true statement; xenophobic or not.

The Fianna Fail policy of 'stack em high' (in relation to jobs) 'sell 'em cheap' (in relation to taxation) wasn't exactly the best idea we have ever seen - but hey.

As for the 'Irish didn't want to do those jobs' ... emm... it was something that never really struck me as 100% accurate (not lest because both myself and my peers were attempting, with great difficulty to get such jobs at the height of the boom). Perhaps the fact was that Irish workers were lazier and sought better standards, and were not prepared to work for lower wages - either way preference in bottom feeder jobs was generally towards foreigners.

As for these foreign workers driving down wages - not really; wages throughout the boom rose in all sectors (although perhaps entry level jobs were statistically less affected than other sectors due to competition).

As for them 'going elsewhere' due to our economy being 'so rubbish' - well that is only partially true. Those who continue to have work generally will not (obviously) Those who do not have work, but are entitled to welfare may stay. Those whose home economies are still on the up (such as Poland) may return despite the comparatively worse wages there. Those who have established roots here (such as buying property and owing a mortgage) will not leave for other obvious reasons).

Your post is not really rooted in much reality but is rather coming from the viewpoint of 'well other countries did X for Irish immigrants so we should do X too'; and, as such, is not the most impressive position ever adopted.

davekel

Lockstep wrote: »

It also gives others a chance to come here and look for a better life. My family left Ireland when I was a child and were able to do so thanks to the free movement of workers. I returned in 2007 and started working in Dunnes, nearly all the staff were Eastern European as they were willing to do the job unlike the Irish. Now economic migrants are increasingly leaving as our economy is so rubbish they can go elsewhere.

Your post just comes across as incoherent, bigoted and xenophobic rant.

DEY TURK ER JERBS

So we're back to the old xenophobic argument eh ? Just because many irish people have legitimate concerns like myself about immigration for the reason i outlined i suppose we're all just xenophobic . The ordinary Irish person trying to put food on the table who is finding it ever harder to gain employment because of the competition from immigrants thats all i said , i don't see anything xenophobic about that.

everyone seems to be xenophobic when you dont like what they have to say.

* of course you do realise that in your post you said something xenophobic yourself about the Irish ! can you find were it is ??

davekel

djpbarry wrote: »

€200,000 per annum? Wow. That would cover the cost of, what, 20 Jobseekers Benefit claims?
So there's a direct correlation between rate of immigration and increase in unemployment rate?

and what about his 10 million euro mansion in foxrock and the money he owes the state 3 billion ??

you seem to agree with the People who broke this country being rewarded ??? are you ??

Lockstep

RandomName2 wrote: »

Dey turk er jerbs can actually be a true statement; xenophobic or not.

The Fianna Fail policy of 'stack em high' (in relation to jobs) 'sell 'em cheap' (in relation to taxation) wasn't exactly the best idea we have ever seen - but hey.

As for the 'Irish didn't want to do those jobs' ... emm... it was something that never really struck me as 100% accurate (not lest because both myself and my peers were attempting, with great difficulty to get such jobs at the height of the boom). Perhaps the fact was that Irish workers were lazier and sought better standards, and were not prepared to work for lower wages - either way preference in bottom feeder jobs was generally towards foreigners.

As for these foreign workers driving down wages - not really; wages throughout the boom rose in all sectors (although perhaps entry level jobs were statistically less affected than other sectors due to competition).

As for them 'going elsewhere' due to our economy being 'so rubbish' - well that is only partially true. Those who continue to have work generally will not (obviously) Those who do not have work, but are entitled to welfare may stay. Those whose home economies are still on the up (such as Poland) may return despite the comparatively worse wages there. Those who have established roots here (such as buying property and owing a mortgage) will not leave for other obvious reasons).

Your post is not really rooted in much reality but is rather coming from the viewpoint of 'well other countries did X for Irish immigrants so we should do X too'; and, as such, is not the most impressive position ever adopted.

Economic migrants go wherever there are jobs.
You found it extremely hard to find work at the height of the boom where even with immigration we had circa 4% unemployment? Granted there will always be transitional unemployment but it's pretty harsh to claim you found it hard to find work at such a time.

Employers will hire whoever is best for the job. No matter how cheap someone might be, if they have a poor attitude, broken English or are unskilled for the job then they will have an increasingly hard time finding work.

Of the 130k who emigrated between 2008-2010 nearly 40% were Eastern European whereas 35% were Irish.

Have you any sources for your opinions? Given that you claim mine isn't rooted in reality you'd want to source your own.

Lockstep

davekel wrote: »

So we're back to the old xenophobic argument eh ? Just because many irish people have legitimate concerns like myself about immigration for the reason i outlined i suppose we're all just xenophobic . The ordinary Irish person trying to put food on the table who is finding it ever harder to gain employment because of the competition from immigrants thats all i said , i don't see anything xenophobic about that.

everyone seems to be xenophobic when you dont like what they have to say.

* of course you do realise that in your post you said something xenophobic yourself about the Irish ! can you find were it is ??

If you are expressing a dislike of foreigners coming in for no rational reason except a poorly thought out approach to the economy, then you're xenophobic. I dunno how to put it any other way.

What's your beef with immigrants anyway? They're good for the econony


Given that I am Irish myself, it's not xenophobic for me to criticise the Irish given that xenophobia is an unreasonable fear of foreigners.
I suggest you look up the meaning before accusing me of such nonsense.

davekel

Lockstep wrote: »

If you are expressing a dislike of foreigners coming in for no rational reason except a poorly thought out approach to the economy, then you're xenophobic. I dunno how to put it any other way.

Did you even read my post . I just gave a perfectly rational reason . Is it not obvious to you that the more immigrants that arrive in Ireland the more competition there is for jobs , therefore the more competition there is for jobs the less jobs there will be , therefore it will be harder for native irish people to gain employment.

do you follow or is it to complicated what i have said, i didn't mention anything about disliking foreigners did I ??? you said that not me so it must be on your mind.

K-9

davekel wrote: »

So we're back to the old xenophobic argument eh ? Just because many irish people have legitimate concerns like myself about immigration for the reason i outlined i suppose we're all just xenophobic . The ordinary Irish person trying to put food on the table who is finding it ever harder to gain employment because of the competition from immigrants thats all i said , i don't see anything xenophobic about that.

everyone seems to be xenophobic when you dont like what they have to say.

* of course you do realise that in your post you said something xenophobic yourself about the Irish ! can you find were it is ??

Hmmmm, you can't really be xenophobic about people from your native country! An Irishman living in Ireland can't be xenophobic about Irish people!

davekel

K-9 wrote: »

Hmmmm, you can't really be xenophobic about people from your native country! An Irishman living in Ireland can't be xenophobic about Irish people!

maybe not but from wikipedia -

" As defined by the OED, it can mean a fear of or aversion to, not only people from other countries, but other cultures, subcultures and subsets of belief systems; in short, anyone who meets any list of criteria about their origin, religion, personal beliefs, habits, language, orientations, or any other criteria "

i dont know maybe i should have use the word prejudice instead.

The Corinthian

davekel wrote: »

Did you even read my post . I just gave a perfectly rational reason .

You've not given any rational reasons or arguments to date for anything you've said.

So far you've managed to make numerous dubious claims based upon false information that you are either inventing or misinformed on. You even went onto pathetically defend your fantasy of a great oil lake underneath us by arguing that it's there but we've just not discovered it yet!

Then on the topic of jobs, you immediately homed in on foreigners who somehow must be a significant factor in present unemployment levels, ignoring all other factors in the process.

do you follow or is it to complicated what i have said, i didn't mention anything about disliking foreigners did I ??? you said that not me so it must be on your mind.

Your entire tone has been xenophobic from the onset here. You don't like foreigners in relation to our national association and you don't like them in Ireland either, for fear they will take our jobs (and presumably our women and Guinness).

It's not difficult to see what cloth your beliefs and prejudices are cut from as a result.

davekel

The Corinthian wrote: »

Your entire tone has been xenophobic from the onset here. You don't like foreigners in relation to our national association and you don't like them in Ireland either, for fear they will take our jobs (and presumably our women and Guinness).

It's not difficult to see what cloth your beliefs and prejudices are cut from as a result.

this is an outragous remark you have made, I express some genuine concerns over immigration like many other people and you attack me verbally blasting me xenophobic.

personally i find your attitude little to be desired and i think you should apologise to me after all in relation to your forum you are "responsible for keeping it happy and healthy" and i dont feel too happy now.

The Corinthian

davekel wrote: »

this is an outragous remark you have made, I express some genuine concerns over immigration like many other people and you attack me verbally blasting me xenophobic.

Actually I attacked your arguments, and specifically said which. If your arguments repeatedly paint xenophobic viewpoints, it's hardly surprising if that conclusion inevitably gets attached to their mouthpiece.

And simply repeating that they are "genuine concerns", does not make them so, however much you wish they were. You've not in the slightest demonstrated that 'foreigners' in Ireland are significantly adding to unemployment (let alone why they might be if they were). You've stated a hypothesis (what you might call a "concern") and then expect it to be taken as true.

And guess what; we're not going to simply take your word for it, just like we didn't on your claims of oil wealth that turned out to be fantasy.

personally i find your attitude little to be desired and i think you should apologise to me after all in relation to your forum you are "responsible for keeping it happy and healthy" and i dont feel too happy now.

I'm not this forum's moderator; I moderate elsewhere and here I'm just a normal user with no special, magical, powers. And you can spare me your indignation and demands of apology thank you.

laoch na mona

if the new treaty calls for more federalization then we should leave while we can

davekel

The Corinthian wrote: »

Actually I attacked your arguments, and specifically said which.

no you didn't you just branded me xenophobic because you disagreed with my valid argument. you just didn't like what i had to say and therefore i must be xenophobic.

The Corinthian wrote: »

demonstrated that 'foreigners' in Ireland are significantly adding to unemployment (let alone why they might be if they were).

actually i referred to them as immigrants , you referred to them as foreigners and i can't make my argument any simpler or clearer than i already have ,actually I said they were adding to unemployment levels for "Native Irish" people which is logical , i mean if there is five jobs and 3 are taken by immigrants that leaves only 2 for Native Irish , but if those immigrants were not here that would leave 5 for Native Irish. (this is really Anne and Barry stuff. hope you understand the simple math)

Scofflaw

davekel wrote: »

no you didn't you just branded me xenophobic because you disagreed with my valid argument. you just didn't like what i had to say and therefore i must be xenophobic.



actually i referred to them as immigrants , you referred to them as foreigners and i can't make my argument any simpler or clearer than i already have ,actually I said they were adding to unemployment levels for "Native Irish" people which is logical , i mean if there is five jobs and 3 are taken by immigrants that leaves only 2 for Native Irish , but if those immigrants were not here that would leave 5 for Native Irish. (this is really Anne and Barry stuff. hope you understand the simple math)

The simple math is too simple, though. Immigrants need food, housing, schools (depending) and other services. When you add them to a population, you add that demand, as well as adding their productive capacity - so the number of jobs in the population increases. It's not a zero-sum game.

cordially,
Scofflaw

davekel

Scofflaw wrote: »

The simple math is too simple, though. Immigrants need food, housing, schools (depending) and other services.

Scofflaw

which brings me to my next argument against immigration

immigration adds an increased Financial Strain on our Health , Education , welfare and housing services.

View

laoch na mona wrote: »

if the new treaty calls for more federalization then we should leave while we can

Well, Sarkozy has said he wants it done on an inter-governmental basis. That of course suits a large state like France as it means the bigger your state, the larger clout you have. Smaller states tend to prefer more "Federal" solutions as such solutions are intended to counter-act that danger.

The Corinthian

davekel wrote: »

no you didn't you just branded me xenophobic because you disagreed with my valid argument.

Incorrect, I said:

The Corinthian wrote: »

You don't like foreigners in relation to our national association and you don't like them in Ireland either, for fear they will take our jobs (and presumably our women and Guinness).

You see where I actually cited the common theme in two of your arguments?

davekel wrote: »

you just didn't like what i had to say and therefore i must be xenophobic.

That's a presumption that can only be held if you ignored what I actually said, which you did.

actually i referred to them as immigrants , you referred to them as foreigners

Is there any other kind of immigrant? Maybe I was wrong; maybe you want to kick all the culchies out of Dublin...

and i can't make my argument any simpler or clearer than i already have ,actually I said they were adding to unemployment levels for "Native Irish" people which is logical , i mean if there is five jobs and 3 are taken by immigrants that leaves only 2 for Native Irish , but if those immigrants were not here that would leave 5 for Native Irish. (this is really Anne and Barry stuff. hope you understand the simple math)

Simplistic maths more like it. As Scofflaw pointed out immigrants consume local goods and services, which in turn creates more jobs locally.

davekel wrote: »

immigration adds an increased Financial Strain on our Health , Education , welfare and housing services.

And tax revenue to pay for the it. It's called economies of scale; look it up.

Any more well informed insights on the subject?

davekel

The Corinthian wrote: »

As Scofflaw pointed out immigrants consume local goods and services, which in turn creates more jobs locally.

yes but these goods and services would be consumed anyway even if there were no immigrants. Also a lot of goods consumed are from Ethnic Food Stores and so is lost trade to irish suppliers and lost money going overseas.

The Corinthian wrote: »

And tax revenue to pay for the it. It's called economies of scale; look it up.

yes of course they pay tax but if the job had been given to a native Irish person in the first place well they would have to pay tax too !! so there's nothing new there , its not something you could point to as a benefit of immigration ...

oscarBravo

davekel wrote: »

yes but these goods and services would be consumed anyway even if there were no immigrants.

Consumed by whom, exactly? Are you claiming that if all immigrants were to leave, Irish people would ramp up their consumption of goods and services to take up the slack?

yes of course they pay tax but if the job had been given to a native Irish person in the first place well they would have to pay tax too !!

Clear something up for me. If there is one job available, and two applicants - one Irish, one non-Irish - would you consider it a better thing if the Irish person got the job?

K-9

davekel wrote: »

which brings me to my next argument against immigration

immigration adds an increased Financial Strain on our Health , Education , welfare and housing services.

Yeah, but that ignores the point Scofflaw made, immigrants were big factors in driving the rental market, taking up new jobs, jobs that Ireland couldn't create any more as the labour supply ran out (Full employment, housewives employed as part time etc.) so bring more people in to increase the supply. They then spent money in the economy which trickles back to the Government is some shape or form.

Some take that as meaning immigrants caused and extended the property bubble. Not really, as the bubble took of, investors needed more and more renters. Problem was, more and more Irish people were becoming owners, the rental market was reducing. Along comes a new market to meet the demand for apartments, so Irish people buy more.

It reached the end game in 06 when reports were published expecting immigrants to start buying property and become the new up and coming buyer market.

I suppose that's the difference in these debates about immigration. Some see it as a cause, logically its a symptom.

Stark

davekel wrote: »

which brings me to my next argument against immigration

immigration adds an increased Financial Strain on our Health , Education , welfare and housing services.

So does population increase through having children. But I'm sure you can see that how fallacious it would be to view children as a burden on society?

In fact, I would view immigration as a less demanding form of growing your population. Most immigrants are people of working age so more likely to be net contributors.

The Corinthian

davekel wrote: »

yes but these goods and services would be consumed anyway even if there were no immigrants.

As oscarBravo pointed out, demand for goods and services would drop because the population has.

Also a lot of goods consumed are from Ethnic Food Stores and so is lost trade to irish suppliers and lost money going overseas.

A lot of goods? Do you have data on this or is this another presumption? And would an 'ethnic food store' not have to pay rent and taxes in Ireland?

yes of course they pay tax but if the job had been given to a native Irish person in the first place well they would have to pay tax too !! so there's nothing new there , its not something you could point to as a benefit of immigration ...

Except that the economy would have grown, due to higher population leading to higher demand and thus tax revenue and numbers of jobs would also follow.

These are not terribly complex concepts to follow, TBH - population grows, demand grows, business grows, tax receipts grow. You appear to be blanking out most of what people are saying to you, is there a reason for this?

Lockstep

davekel wrote: »

Did you even read my post . I just gave a perfectly rational reason . Is it not obvious to you that the more immigrants that arrive in Ireland the more competition there is for jobs , therefore the more competition there is for jobs the less jobs there will be , therefore it will be harder for native irish people to gain employment.

do you follow or is it to complicated what i have said

Your 'perfectly rational reason' is one of bigotry and unfounded fears.
As I previously posted, immigrants help the economy.
What's your obsession with 'native Irish' people anyway. What about those who come over, work hard, contribute to the tax system and

Competition is a good thing: we have labour laws that prevent a race to the bottom and a decent minimum wage meaning that there is floor that cannot be fallen through. Meanwhile, the competition means greater efficiency, lower prices and a stronger division of labour.
Or perhaps you've forgotten about the millions of Irish who went abroad and met the sort of prejudice that you hold. It's fairly sad.

davekel wrote: »

i didn't mention anything about disliking foreigners did I ??? you said that not me so it must be on your mind.

Congrats, you've just shown you havn't a clue what you're going on about.
As can be deduced from the name, xenophobia is a fear of foreigners. That you didn't know this merely shows your ignorance on the subject.