Blues & twos

scholar007

Is there a particular time of evening/night after which it is not recommended to use the sirens?

pah

No. Sirens and or lights are used in combination when responding to emergencies. The time of day is irrelevant although the main purpose is to alert traffic & pedestrians to your intentions, there may be less of that at night so "blues & twos" might not be as necessary.

mcgarrett

When passing the Chiefs house between 11pm and 8am.

wreckless

responding at different times of the day would require either or and maybe one or the other .ie at 2am driving down a street or into an estate, why have sirens on? going have no effect other than wake the whole neighbourhood

they are only used to alert other road users to your presence and not "get off the road or out of the way" devices. its courtesy that other road user let you pass or assist your progression at speed to an incident

driving into a field or farm with animals and livestock etc. e.g horses, they can and do get very startled by them, also at mental homes or homes for the elderly etc. strobe lights can do more harm than good! :eek:


the driver is the person who controls them as they are fully responsible for the vehicle enroute. once at an incident, the OIC will assume control

Mycroft H

Certain medical emergencies you would not use sirens or even lights

scholar007

BX 19 wrote: »

Certain medical emergencies you would not use sirens or even lights

I was told (years ago) that the siren (when it was neee naaw, neee naaw,neee naaw,neee naaw,neee naaw, neee naaw,neee naaw,neee naaw,neee naaw,neee naaw, neee naaw, - sorry getting carried away) are not to be used after 11pm.

What are the certain medical emergencies for which you would not use sirens or even lights?

searescue

Always use the saying "Only use them if you need to use them".

If I'm ever going to a shout I may switch them on but if I have a clear run with a steady, handy speed turn them off - no point in hurrying - only panics people and makes the odd few do stupid things.

Bang Bang

scholar007 wrote: »

What are the certain medical emergencies for which you would not use sirens or even lights?

There's a Medical Priority Despatch System in place now, this system grades your call and level of response. It is quite an extensive list of illness' and injuries.
What may appear to be an 'Emergency' by a lay person may actually be far from that level to the Ambulance Service so the AMPDS is in place to 'filter' the Emergencies from the calls that can be queued or even classed as 'Omega' which is refer to 'Another Facility, as in no ambulance required.
A call classified as 'Alpha' requires no blue lights or sirens. Same as if an ambulance is despatched to an 'Omega' call there is no requirement for lights & sirens.

999nobody

mcgarrett wrote: »

When passing the Chiefs house between 11pm and 8am.

I believe the siren is mandatory in this case, also you should slow to 5 mph for safety

crackcrack30

FME The dispatch codes seem to change/vary depending on how many crews are available...........and who is taking the call.......

WANTStoWORK

BX 19 wrote: »

Certain medical emergencies you would not use sirens or even lights

no lights!!!! So how the feck are ya to see where you are going when it's dark!!!!

TylerIE

scholar007 wrote: »

I was told (years ago) that the siren (when it was neee naaw, neee naaw,neee naaw,neee naaw,neee naaw, neee naaw,neee naaw,neee naaw,neee naaw,neee naaw, neee naaw, - sorry getting carried away) are not to be used after 11pm.

What are the certain medical emergencies for which you would not use sirens or even lights?

Perhaps someone was mistaken and assumed that the rules of the road part about car horns (honk honks) in built up areas between 11pm and 7am applied to ambulances etc.

Obviously minor injuries or stable illnesses do not require lights / sirens. You may find an ambulance not using sirens for somebody with an illness where stress may worsen their condition e.g. sirens on when somebody is having a heart attack. A [suspected] spinal injury is another example, although serious, getting to hospital 2-10 minutes quicker wont make any significant difference.

Other users have stated re AMPDS which guides you when responding. In Australia in many states you can only bring a patient in on lights/sirens if you have asked your control to have the hospital on standby (ie their condition is so serious that you want a specialist medical/trauma team meeting you at the door). Its the paramedics decision how to prioritise, but if they decide it warrants emergency transport they must notify control.

mediwheel

Well i have worked as a paramedic for 12yrs and regardless of AMPDS codes and the 112/999 system its ultimately the driver of the ambulance that decides how to respond to a call, after all its my licence not anyone else !

Zambia

I would be of the opinion that the Driver and crew know the situation and they can make the call at what speed and bells and whistles they need to transport the Patient. Within reason of course in the case of speed.

ivabiggon

BX 19 wrote: »

Certain medical emergencies you would not use sirens or even lights

DFB answer ALL calls under blue light, a directive issued by management! and it would never be a driver choice to not drive under blue light to a 999 call as this would be delaying a emergency call, and we all know what happened to a fireman for doing that a few years ago.

McWotever

ivabiggon wrote: »

DFB answer ALL calls under blue light, a directive issued by management! and it would never be a driver choice to not drive under blue light to a 999 call as this would be delaying a emergency call, and we all know what happened to a fireman for doing that a few years ago.

I'd be more concerned justifying my actions to a judge than to management. And that situation isn't completely relevant to this topic.

ivabiggon

Zambia wrote: »

I would be of the opinion that the Driver and crew know the situation and they can make the call at what speed and bells and whistles they need to transport the Patient. Within reason of course in the case of speed.

i was referring to the turnout response when i mentioned not delaying an ambulance case, now transporting is a total different thing, you can never trust the information from the control room, and they cant trust the info extracted from the 999 subscriber, hence the blue light turnout, but when a crew arrives they will make an medical assessment and drive accordingly, well, they should!!!

McWotever

I think we should agree to leave that incident aside, but I take your point.

The whole PMDS thing in DFB annoys me. I agree that you cannot trust the information coming from the CCRM in regards the incident, but it shouldn't be that way.

We've had proQA for 7 years and still only half implemented. Its a tried and trusted system in many EMS services, and has its proven track record. But in regard to responding to an incident, I can only go on the information I have been given from the CCRM and respond accordingly. If the information is received in the CCRM wrong or passed on incorrectly then its the link in the chain before me that is broken.

In regards transporting, obviously you are right, that is down to the crew making their own informed decisions.

Its going to happen one day where a serious accident is going to happen when someone is responding inappropriately to a less serious case. Where it has happened before, it just hasn't been followed up by a tough response. It only takes one over zelous traffic cop.

And the policy of blue lights to everything, in my opinion only, is to get the cases done quicker, to save on forking out for a full ambulance service, but that's opening another can of worms!

mediwheel

Well its in writing from PHECC that Omega and Alpha calls, are not to be responded to using lights and sirens. Its is a f#ck up of a system, but what would RTE put in the news every day if it wasnt for the HSE making a balls of something ?!!!

stretch00

mediwheel wrote: »

Well its in writing from PHECC that Omega and Alpha calls, are not to be responded to using lights and sirens. Its is a f#ck up of a system, but what would RTE put in the news every day if it wasnt for the HSE making a balls of something ?!!!

I think you misunderstand pheccs role. They do not and have not tried to define responses. This is a management function.

PHECC advised & suggested to them on the clinically appropriate responses, that's all.

scholar007

McWotever wrote: »

Its going to happen one day where a serious accident is going to happen when someone is responding inappropriately to a less serious case. Where it has happened before, it just hasn't been followed up by a tough response. It only takes one over zelous traffic cop.

This is a general emergency services query about blues & twos in the night time hours and not about any of the services in particular. I would assume that "one over zelous traffic cop" would cut a little bit of slack for fellow emergency services responders, who lets face it all have to deal with unpleasent situations while the rest of the population is safely tucked up in their beds.

I recall a case there recently (correct me if I'm wrong) where two AGS vehicles (a transit and a volvo) were involved in a collision while on blues and twos in the early hours, I would imagine all the services were involved in the clean up, so I would assume ( ass u me - God I hated that when I first heard it) there is a little give and take?

murf313

ivabiggon wrote: »

DFB answer ALL calls under blue light, a directive issued by management! and it would never be a driver choice to not drive under blue light to a 999 call as this would be delaying a emergency call, and we all know what happened to a fireman for doing that a few years ago.

The same dfb who i saw speed into beaumount recently on lights only to see a teenager limp out the back door with a sore ankle?

Its cases like this that really take the piss and why the first time a dfb ambo who smashes into someone whilst on lights/siren and responding to an alpha/omega call, the driver will be hung out to dry.

Also according to dfb management all ff's have been instructed to NOT use lights/sirens on alpha/omega calls.

Paulzx

murf313 wrote: »

The same dfb who i saw speed into beaumount recently on lights only to see a teenager limp out the back door with a sore ankle?

Its cases like this that really take the piss and why the first time a dfb ambo who smashes into someone whilst on lights/siren and responding to an alpha/omega call, the driver will be hung out to dry.

Also according to dfb management all ff's have been instructed to NOT use lights/sirens on alpha/omega calls.

You saw 1 driver driving inappropriately so every driver in the organisation is tarred by you.:rolleyes:

Your information is incorrect on what ff's have been instructed on as regards driving to ambo cases. A memo was issued a few months back saying all ambo cases were to be responded to on blues..

You either,

1- Are making S&*t up

2-Are a liar

or 3 - Don't have a clue what you are talking about.

Take your pick..........

murf313

Paulzx wrote: »

You saw 1 driver driving inappropriately so every driver in the organisation is tarred by you.:rolleyes:

Your information is incorrect on what ff's have been instructed on as regards driving to ambo cases. A memo was issued a few months back saying all ambo cases were to be responded to on blues..

You either,

1- Are making S&*t up

2-Are a liar

or 3 - Don't have a clue what you are talking about.

Take your pick..........

Ah right , that dfb officer i was talking to must of been lying then? So what your saying is, non emergency calls are to be responded to on lights/sirens?

I dont think i tarred everyone with the same brush.... but its not the first time ive seen it and im sure it wont be the last.

The dogs on the street know you lads in dfb love your lights and sirens......;):p

Paulzx

murf313 wrote: »

Ah right , that dfb officer i was talking to must of been lying then? So what your saying is, non emergency calls are to be responded to on lights/sirens?

I dont think i tarred everyone with the same brush.... but its not the first time ive seen it and im sure it wont be the last.

The dogs on the street know you lads in dfb love your lights and sirens......;):p

That dfb officer you were talking to obviously has as much of a clue as you.

Your other comment is childish and is obviously pitched at the level of your intelligence.

I'm not getting into slagging other services. We all have our negative dealings but i'll let you throw the dirt.

murf313

Paulzx wrote: »

That dfb officer you were talking to obviously has as much of a clue as you.

Your other comment is childish and is obviously pitched at the level of your intelligence.

I'm not getting into slagging other services. We all have our negative dealings but i'll let you throw the dirt.

Im only calling it as i see it..........

Im sure that officer knows exactly what he's talking about!

You didnt answer the question, are you instructed to respond to non emergency calls on lights/sirens?

I wont stoop to your level and respond with petty insults btw

Paulzx

murf313 wrote: »

You didnt answer the question, are you instructed to respond to non emergency calls on lights/sirens?

Can you read? This has been answered already in more than one post.

I wont stoop to your level and respond with petty insults btw

You've already gone down that road.

murf313

Paulzx wrote: »

Can you read? This has been answered already in more than one post.





You've already gone down that road.

So if you go to a scene and someone is complaining of a sore throat and a cough your happy enough to take them to a&e on lights and sirens? imo thats endangering 1. the public 2. the patient 3. yourselves. Lights/sirens should be used for emergencys only!

No i have not personally insulted you once. I may have criticised dfb policy but you have for some reason taken this personally.

Paulzx

murf313 wrote: »

So if you go to a scene and someone is complaining of a sore throat and a cough your happy enough to take them to a&e on lights and sirens? imo thats endangering 1. the public 2. the patient 3. yourselves. Lights/sirens should be used for emergencys only!

No i have not personally insulted you once. I may have criticised dfb policy but you have for some reason taken this personally.

You see this is what happens when you decide to make up your own answers.

What would i do? I'd go to the case on lights and sirens giving regard to all due care and attention to safety and other road users as i have been instructed to

When on scene i would assess the patient and then make the decision on transport.

Going back to your makey uppy i would then travel to hospital without lights as per normal traffic.

murf313

Paulzx wrote: »

You see this is what happens when you decide to make up your own answers.

What would i do? I'd go to the case on lights and sirens giving regard to all due care and attention to safety and other road users as i have been instructed to

When on scene i would assess the patient and then make the decision on transport.

Going back to your makey uppy i would then travel to hospital without lights as per normal traffic.

Even an omega call? Non emergency calls should not be responded to on lights/sirens. full stop.

Maybe your only following orders but its a crazy situation.

btw why are your posts so bitter and angry?

Paulzx

murf313 wrote: »

btw why are your posts so bitter and angry?

Are you a shrink?

murf313

Paulzx wrote: »

Are you a shrink?

no but sure let it all out, you'll feel better........:D

Paulzx

murf313 wrote: »

no but sure let it all out, you'll feel better........:D

I'll get banned

murf313

Paulzx wrote: »

I'll get banned

you need to stop taking things so serious.... we have differing opinions, lets just leave it at that.:cool:

Paulzx

murf313 wrote: »

you need to stop taking things so serious.... we have differing opinions, lets just leave it at that.:cool:

I wasn't making reference to our discussion:p

Bang Bang

The Advanced Medical Priority Dispatch System (AMPDS) is a licenced product and all service providors and EMC's must obey and conform to this licence.
Certain proposed changes to the system (in Ireland) must go through PHECC and HIQA, the recent Aspirin protocol for example.
All service providors and operators (EMC's) must meet the criteria of the licence and are regulated.

As it stands in Ireland, Alpha and Omega graded calls are 'cold' response calls, no blue lights and/or sirens.
Any Providor/Manager/Officer who issues an instruction to disobey their AMPDS licence are in breach of that licence and are not conforming to regulation and they may be putting crews lives and other lives in danger.

Personally I would direct any such instruction to Health & Safety without delay.

murf313

Bang Bang wrote: »

The Advanced Medical Priority Dispatch System (AMPDS) is a licenced product and all service providors and EMC's must obey and conform to this licence.
Certain proposed changes to the system (in Ireland) must go through PHECC and HIQA, the recent Aspirin protocol for example.
All service providors and operators (EMC's) must meet the criteria of the licence and are regulated.

As it stands in Ireland, Alpha and Omega graded calls are 'cold' response calls, no blue lights and/or sirens.
Any Providor/Manager/Officer who issues an instruction to disobey their AMPDS licence are in breach of that licence and are not conforming to regulation and they may be putting crews lives and other lives in danger.

Personally I would direct any such instruction to Health & Safety without delay.

This is exactly the point im trying to make!

If ampds says its a alpha call theres no way im going to use light/sirens. The time you crash into someone management will nail you to the wall!

scholar007

Paulzx wrote: »

You saw 1 driver driving inappropriately so every driver in the organisation is tarred by you.:rolleyes:

Your information is incorrect on what ff's have been instructed on as regards driving to ambo cases. A memo was issued a few months back saying all ambo cases were to be responded to on blues..

You either,

1- Are making S&*t up

2-Are a liar

or 3 - Don't have a clue what you are talking about.

Take your pick..........

Such good natured jovial banter

ivabiggon

correct me if i'm wrong and i'm in the dfb..but was there not a recent memo sent around about responding to all calls under blue light?

kub

Bang Bang wrote: »

The Advanced Medical Priority Dispatch System (AMPDS) is a licenced product and all service providors and EMC's must obey and conform to this licence.
Certain proposed changes to the system (in Ireland) must go through PHECC and HIQA, the recent Aspirin protocol for example.
All service providors and operators (EMC's) must meet the criteria of the licence and are regulated.

As it stands in Ireland, Alpha and Omega graded calls are 'cold' response calls, no blue lights and/or sirens.
Any Providor/Manager/Officer who issues an instruction to disobey their AMPDS licence are in breach of that licence and are not conforming to regulation and they may be putting crews lives and other lives in danger.

Personally I would direct any such instruction to Health & Safety without delay.

Lads am I correct in thinking that there are rules and regs regarding when or if you can put on your blues and Twos?

Or is this a joke, I really hope its a joke, i thought you guys driving such vehicles were under enough pressure than to be dealing with all that BS.

goldie fish

kub wrote: »

Lads am I correct in thinking that there are rules and regs regarding when or if you can put on your blues and Twos?

Or is this a joke, I really hope its a joke, i thought you guys driving such vehicles were under enough pressure than to be dealing with all that BS.

When Ambulance drivers get prosecuted for crashing into a car while attending to an emergency on blues and twos, unfortunately, you need rules.

The average motorist is an idiot. The state WILL compensate them for being so.

kub

My God, that is crazy. So an idiot can be driving along without paying due care and attention,the volume on the radio up full whack etc, goes through (for example) a Stop sign without actually stopping and does not notice the ambulance with the necessary noise and lights and bang.

Then its all the ambulance guys fault, for going too fast because the patient in the back was at deaths door, or was under pressure due to the shortage of crews out there etc.

This is very interesting actually, if you are an employee and you injure yourself in the course of your employment, you can bring your employer to court for compensation.

So having to put up with this BS, and should guys find themselves in the position of being prosecuted either by AGS or worse by the H & S brigade (there are other words I would love to use to describe this shower, but out of respect to you all I won't).
Could they not point the finger of blame at their employer. for putting them in that position?

Bang Bang

kub wrote: »

Lads am I correct in thinking that there are rules and regs regarding when or if you can put on your blues and Twos?

Or is this a joke, I really hope its a joke, i thought you guys driving such vehicles were under enough pressure than to be dealing with all that BS.

How do you figure that it's 'BS'?
Not all 'Emergency' calls are actual emergencies, any Paramedic can tell you the number of calls received for cut fingers, four month long abdo pains, I got a call one night for someone having a nightmare!! The list goes on.
So why should you respond to any minor injuries or illness' on lights and sirens?

As for stress whilst driving under emergency conditions, yes this can be true, so the AMPDS allows for quite a number of calls to be responded under 'cold' far less stressful conditions (minor injuries and ilness') thus it actually aids the welfare, health & safety of Paramedics, not forgetting reducing the risk of other road users being injured in the event of an accident involving an ambulance.
Remember that those minor injuries and illness' only end up joining the queue in the waiting room, so how can you justify an emergency 'lights' and sirens' journey to the waiting room?

In my opinion if a Paramedic chooses to transport a definite Alpha or Omega grade patient to hospital using blue lights and sirens and is involved in an accident then they should be investigated by their employer and the law.

kub

Bang Bang wrote: »

How do you figure that it's 'BS'?
Not all 'Emergency' calls are actual emergencies, any Paramedic can tell you the number of calls received for cut fingers, four month long abdo pains, I got a call one night for someone having a nightmare!! The list goes on.
So why should you respond to any minor injuries or illness' on lights and sirens?

As for stress whilst driving under emergency conditions, yes this can be true, so the AMPDS allows for quite a number of calls to be responded under 'cold' far less stressful conditions (minor injuries and ilness') thus it actually aids the welfare, health & safety of Paramedics, not forgetting reducing the risk of other road users being injured in the event of an accident involving an ambulance.
Remember that those minor injuries and illness' only end up joining the queue in the waiting room, so how can you justify an emergency 'lights' and sirens' journey to the waiting room?

In my opinion if a Paramedic chooses to transport a definite Alpha or Omega grade patient to hospital using blue lights and sirens and is involved in an accident then they should be investigated by their employer and the law.

Ok Bang Bang I am not an ES worker, but I do admire all you guys for having the balls to do the jobs ye do.
Therefore looking in from outside, I would have thought that paramedics are sensible people and would only use blues and twos in certain circumstances.
I grew up close to one of the largest a&e's in the country and I know that not all ambulances heading there were under b&t's. (honestly thought that was because the poor person in the back was after dying).
So I take it from your post so that there are various grades regarding each call out with the various star trek type terminology.
Is this really necessary? I mean are the crews in these vehicles not professional enough to know when and when not to cause a racket?

scholar007

goldie fish wrote: »

When Ambulance drivers get prosecuted for crashing into a car while attending to an emergency on blues and twos, unfortunately, you need rules.

The average motorist is an idiot. The state WILL compensate them for being so.

What's an ambulance driver?
I only know EMTs, Paramedics & Advanced Paramedics.

Bang Bang

kub wrote: »

Is this really necessary? I mean are the crews in these vehicles not professional enough to know when and when not to cause a racket?

The crews in the vehicles are not the people who process the calls, the calls are processed through the Command & Control Center using the AMPDS and ProQA, this is the system as explained already that grades the calls. The call and call grade are then passed by the EMC (Emergency Medical Controller) to the crew via radio, pager or phone.

If your comment is in relation to a crew transporting to hospital a definite Alpha or Omega graded patient then yes they should be professional enough to know better, I believe I covered this in my previous post.

goldie fish

scholar007 wrote: »

What's an ambulance driver?
I only know EMTs, Paramedics & Advanced Paramedics.

A person who drives an ambulance. They werent always EMTs you know.

scholar007

goldie fish wrote: »

A person who drives an ambulance. They werent always EMTs you know.

Ah but I hear umbrage is taken if any EMTs, Paramedics, or APs are referred to as Ambo drivers.

999nobody

scholar007 wrote: »

Ah but I hear umbrage is taken if any EMTs, Paramedics, or APs are referred to as Ambo drivers.

It's merely professional courtesy to refer to someone by their correct title, i.e. Guard, firefighter, nurse, teacher etc

Ziycon

Based on what I've read here, for example the DFB protocols, you have to respond to all calls on blues but when you get there and asses the situation its up to the AMPDS to decide how you proceed from the incident?

Burnt

Speaking of accidents involving emergency vehicles, here is a BBC Report on
unfortunately a fatal RTC between a Fire Engine, responding to a child trapped
in a separate RTC, and a Yaris in Basildon Essex England today.