Who Is The Supers Immediate Superior ?

vixdname

Just a quick one lads, if you're having hassle with getting a firearm cert and the super is also dragging his heals, who is next in the line of authority that you can contact ?
Not having hassle myself but was asked the question today and didnt know the answer !

Sparks

That's not quite how it works vidx, but if there's a problem the best initial approach is to contact your NGB and have them approach the Firearms Policy Unit on your behalf. If that approach doesn't work, your recourse is via the district courts, but it's better to try to solve it outside the courts if you can.

deerhunter1

vixdname wrote: »

Just a quick one lads, if you're having hassle with getting a firearm cert and the super is also dragging his heals, who is next in the line of authority that you can contact ?
Not having hassle myself but was asked the question today and didnt know the answer !

Chief Super

Cass

A Chief Super will never (be seen to) argue/disagree with a Super's decision. Plus he may not even entertain a person's questions, etc citing that the Super is the authority and he can/will deal with it.

If you can vixdname, what was the story with your friend. s he/she having grief?

Sparks

deerhunter1 wrote: »

Chief Super

Nope. Not for firearms licencing. It goes Super->District Court, directly. For restricted firearms it's technically going Commissioner->District Court, but the Chief Supers delegate for the commissioner so it effectively goes Chief Super->District Court. If the Chief Super ordered a Super to grant or refuse a licence, it'd be rather a big thing since it'd be unlawful under the Firearms Acts.

vixdname

Ezridax wrote: »

A Chief Super will never (be seen to) argue/disagree with a Super's decision. Plus he may not even entertain a person's questions, etc citing that the Super is the authority and he can/will deal with it.

If you can vixdname, what was the story with your friend. s he/she having grief?

Hi Ez, a lad I'm working with who I was talking to recently regarding myself getting started in the deer stalking this season told me that he has been given the run around by both his local garda (over 6 months of excuses as to why his application wasnt being processed) and lately his district super.
He was advised by someone else to talk to his super regarding his local garda dragging his heels with the application.
He got to speak to the supers secretary who recently has been telling him that she has spoken to the super about his application and that he will get it sorted for him next week, and then next week and then next week and so on and so forth. This lad, (he tells me, as I didnt even know he was interested in shooting until a couple of weeks bacK) that he has never been in trouble with the gardaí but that his older brother has been in and out of the justice system a number of times over the years.
He asked me who the supers immediate superior was and I didnt know.
Hes looking at getting a .22LR and has handed in 3 letters of permission given to him by local farmers. I think hes getting the impression that his brothers name is rubbing off on him and to be honest, a sounder young lad you couldnt meet, hes the complete opposite to his brother I've been told.
It would be a pity if his brothers bad reputation was being held against him. :rolleyes:

Cass

It sounds as though he is being seriously messed around alright, and unfortunately his brother's past deeds may have a bearing on his application from the point of view that his brother may be in the same house or have some sort of access to the firearm. I understand this may not be the case, but i'm gessing as to the Super's logic.

Unfortunately, as Sparks, said the Super is where the buck stops for any unrestricted firearm. I would stop all contact with the secretary and FO and make an appointment to see the Super. You are entitled" to ask for a meeting, and i would advise your mate to bring another application all filled out with him, incase the other one was "misplaced". Have a chat with the Super and put his mind at ease. Cut out any middle men.

Let us know how he gets on, but try encourage him to follow through on this. If he is a member of the NARGC or any other NGB/organisation i would strongly recommend getting them involved. Thats why we pay our membership fees to these groups.

Sparks

If his application went in six months ago vixdname, and he's heard nothing back, then not only has he been refused (and deemed to be informed, gotta love that little bit of doublespeak in the Act), but he's run out of time to appeal it in the DC as well. Unless the local lad turns a blind eye to this and grants the application that's already in there in a very Irish way ("erra, look what was on the floor under my desk!"), he'll have to reapply. Talking to the super (and only the super - not his secretary/FO/anyone else in the station) would be a pretty good idea...

FISMA

vixdname wrote: »

Just a quick one lads, if you're having hassle with getting a firearm cert and the super is also dragging his heals, who is next in the line of authority that you can contact ?
Not having hassle myself but was asked the question today and didnt know the answer !

Vix,
Three words: chain of command.

Do not break the chain of command.

Do not try and go over the super's head, so to speak.

Even if the Super is at fault, you cannot imply such. It will get you nowhere fast.

Y'er man should go and have a face to face conversation with the super. Perhaps, he could find a few people to stand for him: old teacher, priest, postman , or whomever.

If I were your friend, I would talk to the super and in no uncertain terms, let him know that although I love my brother, I realize he was a f€ckin eegit and that I am not my brother's keeper.

There's something bothering the super. Try and put his mind at ease before you say or do anything drastic.

FWIW - you never know, we might be blaming the brother in error.

Sparks

FISMA wrote: »

Three words: chain of command.

That was the very thing I was trying to point out does not apply in this case Fisma. The firearms act specifically breaks the chain of command and the supreme court upheld this - the Super cannot be directed by higher ranking officers to grant or refuse a licence application, not legally anyway. The decision is his, and can only be appealed to the District Court, not to his superior in the AGS.

BattleCorp

As Sparks has said, your friend has been refused a licence due to the fact that three months have passed and he hasn't had any word on it. It's crap that they don't have to write to you and let you know that you have been refused.

The only way that an application can take more than three months is if the Super comes back to you with a request for further information, eg. security concerns, magazine capacity etc.

If the Super hasn't gotten back to him with requests for more info, then unfortunately he may apply again.

tommyboy26

I spoke to local fo yesterday about the 3 month refusal as im coming close to 3 months myself and he told me its three months from the time its entered into there system. So if it sits on a fo/supers desk for the first six weeks like mine did your friends application might still be sitting on a desk so tell him to ask when it was entered on there system and if it hasnt been ask for ask for a meeting with the super.

Scalachi

Hi Tommyboy,

I dont believe this is quite corect, but it may be a "local rule"

Below is an extract from the famous "guidelines"

Section 3 of the Firearms Act 1925 as amended, provides that a decision on an application for a firearms certificate or its renewal shall be given within 3 months from the date on which the applicant submitted a completed application. Where an application is refused, the applicant shall be informed in writing of the refusal and the reason for it. If a decision on an application is not made within this 3 month period then this is deemed to be a refusal under section 15A of the Firearms Act 1925 as inserted by section 43 of the Criminal Justice Act 2006.

Regards

DB

bazza888

i dont think that 3month refusal is followed by the guards i know lads who have been waiting up to 5-6months on there application to be processed

tac foley

Bearing in mind the relatively few applications for firearms made in the Republic of Ireland, I find it just about unbelievable that it takes as long as it does to process such an application.

In other parts of Europe, it might take as long as three weeks to a month to process, but then, in most other countries in Europe there are dedicated staff doing it, not an often uncaring and disinterested police officer with 'better things to do'.

The average here in UK is four weeks from application to issuing, so I'm told. My county has never taken longer than three weeks to deal with my renewal, but then the system is entirely different to yours.

All eighteen of my guns - rifles and handguns - are on one certificate, and it is ME that has the licence, not the guns - that makes things a lot easier all round. And BTW, nobody in Europe but the RoI licences the gun, and not the owner. Imagine the chaos caused by having to renew eighteen different licences at different times?

Ah, but you don't HAVE to imagine it, do you? That's how your system functions, or rather, doesn't.

Some of you lads here with multiple firearms must spend a lot of time just watching the calendar to make sure that the next renewal application gets there in time...

tac

Vegeta

I don't want to rub salt in anyones wound but my local guys have improved dramatically.

I am getting professional and speedy service every time I go to the station.

Think it was a 2 or 3 day turnaround for my last substitutions, and that's from walking in the garda station door to finding the license in my letter box.

The gardai get a bad rap here but I imagine the vast majority of licenses are trouble free. Threads praising the gardai are just rare so we get a skewed perspective on things.

vix I hope things work out for your colleague.

tac foley

It's really good to see that some members of AGS can do it to satisfaction of the letter of the law without exploding into a mass of blue tatters - now all they need is for the rest of them to catch up with YOUR local personnel.

It is long overdue most everywhere else in the RoI.

tac

Cass

tommyboy26 wrote: »

........ he told me its three months from the time its entered into there system.

Scalachi wrote: »

Hi Tommyboy,

I dont believe this is quite corect, but it may be a "local rule"

I think Scalachi has it right. I've been told the same thing that its 3 months from the date of submission. Thats why i've said before to get a receipt or some note/letter from the Garda you deal with at the desk. This is not often done, but i'd push for one if i were submitting a application in some of the districts i've heard about. This way if the 3 month period passes you can ring up the FO/Super and i fhe says "we're still dealing" you can say its been 3 months and under the rules the application is deemed refused, but if he is still processing it you need a note/ketter from him to say that he is still processing it so it does not cut into your appeal time.

The fact that you mention appeal and would be willing to follow the applicatio through to its end result should spark a little speed from them.

bazza888 wrote: »

i dont think that 3month refusal is followed by the guards .......

Its not. So far its a hit and miss. Some districts are goo and process an application in a prompt time and if it goes 3 months then it is a refusal. Others are not so efficient. I'm hopin beyond hope that come the first line of rr-applications next year that all the kinks are gone and 3 months means 3 months. This "is it? - isn't it?" situation we have now is a joke, and if they cannot get it straightened then letters of refusal should be issued until all districts/stations are up to scratch and in a position to say they can process n application within the 3 month period so if one runs over the time scale its not delayed but refused.

tac foley. While i agree with your sentiment on these issues its pointless constantly comparing our system to the UK one or any other system for that matter. The time to change all this for the better wa in the last overhaul of the CJA. They didn't, and while alot is still malfunctioning we have gained in other departments. Hopefully in the furture we will see a newer and much improved system, but thats for then.

I mean we have things here that are not available in the UK. We are limited, but we are also getting there and the constant complaining about what we don't have or the hoops we have to jump through, while true and in most cases appropriate, does nothing for anyone.

Vegeta wrote: »

I am getting professional and speedy service every time I go to the station.

+1.

The gardai get a bad rap here but I imagine the vast majority of licenses are trouble free. Threads praising the gardai are just rare so we get a skewed perspective on things.

Also spot on the money. its a pity we could not get an answer from every person licensed for a firearm. I imagine the split could be somewhere in the region of 85% or more people satisfied with they way they were treated and the speed at which the application was processed.

tac foley wrote: »

It is long overdue most everywhere else in the RoI.

tac

I agree that all districts need to be uniformed but as said above i don't believe its as "one sided" or widespread as is portrayed.

tac foley

I take your point. However, I'm not doing anything except showing how it COULD be done more expeditiously and fairly all over the country.

If one area can achieve the required time-scale, why can't all the others?

tac

Cass

tac foley wrote: »

I take your point. However, I'm not doing anything except showing how it COULD be done more expeditiously and fairly all over the country.

To be pedantic, but not ignorant towards you, you are not showing how it could be done "all over the country", but are comparing the UK system to the Irish one.

In itself not a problem, and i am as interested in how the firearm systems of other countries work as they are systems to be studied and examined to see if we are being as badly treated as some think or have we got it "good" and just don't want to admit/see it.

I am the first one to say that things are not perfect, but if we had reloading, and the one cert per person system then in turn, like the UK, we would also have lost all our C/F pistols and the sport would have died a death as it did in the UK. Thats a trade some may like but i guarantee these people have no vested interest in pistols, etc.

You know as well as i that if people have no interest in a particular sport/discipline then what happens to it is of little consequence to them, and who could blame them. I do not expect nor demand that everyone be as outraged as some if certain sports are hit harder than others.

If one area can achieve the required time-scale, why can't all the others?

tac

I will not insult An Gardai with broad sweepiing statments of laziness, incompetence, etc. I will say that some stations and districts need serious attention while others could do with simply more man power. For example my closest station only had two Gardai. One retired at Christmas gone by, and there was none sent in to replace him. I now travel 30+ miles to my other station to speak to the FO there.

I wouldn't be surprised if an increase in man power, and i'm not talking about employing more Gardai merely a better rota of how that man power is applied, solved 70% of the problems we face. The remaining 30% can be solved with traning, and a dedicated set of personel to do the job.

When the CJA(MP)2009 was passed and the new FCA1's released most GArdai were unaware of how the form should have been completed leaving it to the shooter to learn and then educate the Gardai acting as FO. Then last yea an "initiative" by AGS to hav a qualified person in every station to help those struggling failed miserably with some stations not open, others having no personel there, and the remainder keeping odd hours and generally being of no help.


As i said above complaining is good and necessar, in the right amount and the right time. Constantly going on leads to a "ignore them" attitude by the PTB. I hope for better in the near future, but at the end of the day the PTB neither need nor really want us (shooters/sportsmen) involved.

To finish on an slightly upbeat note. With as little as we think we have it could be alot less with the stroke of a pen.

tac foley

Thanks for the useful response - clears up a lot of things for this 'plastic paddy'.

tac