Shoot to Kill

goldie fish

HellsAngel wrote: »

Is that why Jim Lynagh was elected as a councillior for Sinn Fein in Monaghan ? But the vast majority of Monaghan people would not have high regard for the SAS and their loyalist proxy gangs along with the UDR and RUC etc that fellas like yourself seem to have

Was it not the case in NI that many SF candidates were elected because their henchmen had the electorate intimidated? SDLP candidates and campaign workers were frequently were subjected to physical and verbal abuse while campaigning by clearly identified SF election workers.

Being elected does not automatically make you a good guy.
FF being returned to government 3 times in a row should be evidence enough of that.

HellsAngel

goldie fish wrote: »

Was it not the case in NI that many SF candidates were elected because their henchmen had the electorate intimidated? SDLP candidates and campaign workers were frequently were subjected to physical and verbal abuse while campaigning by clearly identified SF election workers.

Being elected does not automatically make you a good guy.
FF being returned to government 3 times in a row should be evidence enough of that.

Your getting way off topic here, but if I don't answer I'll be accused of dodging the question. Since you asked. No one more than SF and family members either side of the border were frequently subjected to physical and verbal abuse while campaigning from the RUC, UDR, Brits and loyalists and the Free State coppers. Not only physical and verbal abuse, but murder by the British forces and their loyalist proxy gangs.

This abuse, intimadation and murder didn't start in 1969, but has been going on since 1916. Hence we have had the conflict and young men drawn to the IRA like those in Loughgall. But if killing Irishmen was the answer, then we'd have been defeated decades ago.

HellsAngel

I have heard that the RUC were also invovled in the ambush, it wasn't just an SAS operation, but of course the SAS fan boys want to make out that they alone carried it out. Anyone know about the RUC invovlement ?

cruasder777

HellsAngel wrote: »

I have heard that the RUC were also invovled in the ambush, it wasn't just an SAS operation, but of course the SAS fan boys want to make out that they alone carried it out. Anyone know about the RUC invovlement ?

There was an RUC Inspector observing the ambush, to make sure the ROE were applied.

The RUC's covert intelligence unit, E4A was also involved.

goldie fish

HellsAngel wrote: »

I have heard that the RUC were also invovled in the ambush, it wasn't just an SAS operation, but of course the SAS fan boys want to make out that they alone carried it out. Anyone know about the RUC invovlement ?

It was them being targetted by the terrorist murderers.

Stovepipe

@HA, the 13 wounded RUC were in the building, so they were direct victims of the tractor bomb. With regard to the dead civilian in a boiler suit, I'm probably wrong but wasn't there a photo published at the time of him, as he sat dead in his car, in a pair of overalls. With regard to the dead Lynagh's reputation in Monaghan, I heard it first hand from people who have lived in the Monaghan border area for generations. Intimidation of local shopkeepers to shut their doors always happened everytime there was a Shinner commemoration or march in Monaghan. Ask any Garda about the atmosphere in Monaghan Town whenever something kicked off when the Shinners were involved. Ask about the intimidation when the monument to the Loughall Ambush was built. You might have a few facts made clear to you.
regards
Stovepipe

Local-womanizer

HellsAngel wrote: »

Since the SAS/Brits were the ones claiming the Hughes brothers were wearing blue boiler suits, the onus is on them, or their fans on here, to provide reliable proof rather than their claims isn't it ??

Does it not say something then if Anthony Hughes brother is not claiming otherwise?

I actually don't know what he was wearing. The SAS claim a boiler suit, the family did not disagree (or at least I think so) and the family were awarded and accepted damages for the incident, thus they accept his death was a case of wrong place wrong time.

Dave Joyce

Christ some of the crap here is unbelievable:rolleyes:

Being elected does not automatically make you a good guy.
FF being returned to government 3 times in a row should be evidence enough of that.

What??? I suppose the Provies went around "intimidating" people to vote for Jim Lynagh :rolleyes:

this is total bs, the army and inteligence services had been watching the PIRS ASU for days, they were watched all they way during the preparation and journey.

They had check points to stop vehicles entering or leaving the village after the PIRA drove in.

SO, they could have taken them ALIVE and caught them red handed if that's the case!!!

There was an RUC Inspector observing the ambush, to make sure the ROE were applied.

Ha ha, are you for real??? Call it what it was, summarily executed as some of the ASU were finished off! ROE don't make me laugh :rolleyes:

The RUC's covert intelligence unit, E4A was also involved.

Another fine bunch, who were involved in the shoot to kill operations which killed Seamus Grew and Roddy Carroll among others

Raging_Ninja

I find it funny when murderers are themselves killed in the act people start bitching and moaning about how it wasn't fair.

goldie fish

Raging_Ninja wrote: »

I find it funny when murderers are themselves killed in the act people start bitching and moaning about how it wasn't fair.

Indeed, how dare they. Reminds me of this.

Captain Darling: So you see, Blackadder, Field Marshall Haig is most anxious to eliminate all these German spies.
General Melchett: Filthy hun weasels, fighting their dirty underhand war!
Captain Darling: And fortunately, one of our spies...
General Melchett: Splendid fellows, brave heroes risking life and limb for Blighty!

paky

HellsAngel wrote: »

This abuse, intimadation and murder didn't start in 1969, but has been going on since 1916. Hence we have had the conflict and young men drawn to the IRA like those in Loughgall. But if killing Irishmen was the answer, then we'd have been defeated decades ago.

very good point

HellsAngel

Stovepipe wrote: »

@HA, the 13 wounded RUC were in the building, so they were direct victims of the tractor bomb. With regard to the dead civilian in a boiler suit, I'm probably wrong but wasn't there a photo published at the time of him, as he sat dead in his car, in a pair of overalls. With regard to the dead Lynagh's reputation in Monaghan, I heard it first hand from people who have lived in the Monaghan border area for generations. Intimidation of local shopkeepers to shut their doors always happened everytime there was a Shinner commemoration or march in Monaghan. Ask any Garda about the atmosphere in Monaghan Town whenever something kicked off when the Shinners were involved. Ask about the intimidation when the monument to the Loughall Ambush was built. You might have a few facts made clear to you.
regards
Stovepipe

I don't need to ask any guard or anyone about alleged SF 'intimadation' as I'm from a border town anyway. I hear the same nonsense about guys selling An Phoblacht etc during the troubles looking intimading at people and muttering "we know where you live " if they didn't put some loose change into the collection box I wonder how many 5p, 10p and 50p pieces would they have needed to buy an once of Semtex or an M16 on the black market

Now, any chance you could stay on topic and drop the ' Provos stole my pocket money to kill Mountbatten ' stuff ?

HellsAngel

How many SAS and RUC E4A members were in the building and surrounding area to take on the 8 IRA men ? 30 or 40+ ?

cruasder777

HellsAngel wrote: »

How many SAS and RUC E4A members were in the building and surrounding area to take on the 8 IRA men ? 30 or 40+ ?

wiki
The SAS, however, had set a trap to destroy the group as they attempted to attack. They placed an SAS soldier inside the base, and deployed a squad of 24 soldiers split into six groups around the building. It has been alleged, but never proved, that the RUC had an informer among the IRA members, and that he was killed by the SAS in the ambush.[8] Other sources claim instead that the security forces obtained beforehand information after a close surveillance operation directed at Jim Lynagh.[9]


some of the six groups would have been at cut off points incase anyone escaped.

HellsAngel

cruasder777 wrote: »

wiki
The SAS, however, had set a trap to destroy the group as they attempted to attack. They placed an SAS soldier inside the base, and deployed a squad of 24 soldiers split into six groups around the building. It has been alleged, but never proved, that the RUC had an informer among the IRA members, and that he was killed by the SAS in the ambush.[8] Other sources claim instead that the security forces obtained beforehand information after a close surveillance operation directed at Jim Lynagh.[9]


some of the six groups would have been at cut off points incase anyone escaped.

And how many RUC E4A ??

cruasder777

HellsAngel wrote: »

And how many RUC E4A ??

Dont know, they along with 14 Int coy did the survillence side.

HellsAngel

cruasder777 wrote: »

Dont know, they along with 14 Int coy did the survillence side.

So the SAS and RUC had to outnumber the IRA men by 4 or 5 to one.

LondonIrish90

HellsAngel wrote: »

So the SAS and RUC had to outnumber the IRA men by 4 or 5 to one.

Life is unfair. It appears death is too.

Besides, if you have the resources available then you will use them, will you not?

HellsAngel

LondonIrish90 wrote: »

Life is unfair. It appears death is too.

Besides, if you have the resources available then you will use them, will you not?

Well as a Wexford rebel in 1798 last words before they hung him " God bless my friends and God damn my enemies "

cruasder777

HellsAngel wrote: »

So the SAS and RUC had to outnumber the IRA men by 4 or 5 to one.

You post like a child :rolleyes:

Ireland good England bad

IRA good soldiers, SAS murderers and rubbish

Happy now, I'll get my coat.

Stovepipe

@hellsangel, the intimidation was very real and often manifested itself in the targeting of business owners and their families. It did happen and continues to happen in certain areas, as you well know if you do actually come from a Border town. With regard to how many Brits it took to kill Lynagh and his crew, does it actually matter? Any military textbook will tell you to achieve at least a three-to-one superiority in numbers before the fight and as you said yourself, it wasn't only the eight dead involved. There were more IRA involved in a scouting and route clearance role.

regards
Stovepipe

HellsAngel

Stovepipe wrote: »

@hellsangel, the intimidation was very real and often manifested itself in the targeting of business owners and their families. It did happen and continues to happen in certain areas, as you well know if you do actually come from a Border town.

:rolleyes: If intimadation was so common along the border, how come Sir Anthony O'Reilly's comics (Independent newspapers) haven't picked up on it or RTE or the issue raised in the Dail ? All of who would never miss a chance to do a bit of SF bashing ?? :rolleyes:

But naturally the Brits bombing border roads, harrassment at chckpoints and even murder ( eg Aidan McAnespie ) doesn't bother you in the least of course.

cruasder777

HellsAngel wrote: »

:rolleyes: If intimadation was so common along the border, how come Sir Anthony O'Reilly's comics (Independent newspapers) haven't picked up on it or RTE or the issue raised in the Dail ? All of who would never miss a chance to do a bit of SF bashing ?? :rolleyes:

But naturally the Brits bombing border roads, harrassment at chckpoints and even murder ( eg Aidan McAnespie ) doesn't bother you in the least of course.

The soldier must have been an incredible shot to deliberately shoot someone via a richochet.

wiki
Forensic evidence suggested that the fatal shot was one of three that had ricocheted off the road two metres behind McAnespie.[4][5] Charges were initially brought against Grenadier Guard Jonathan Holden for manslaughter but were dropped prior to prosecution.[3] He was fined for negligent discharge of the weapon and in 1990 was given a medical discharge.[6]

HellsAngel

cruasder777 wrote: »

The soldier must have been an incredible shot to deliberately shoot someone via a richochet.

wiki
Forensic evidence suggested that the fatal shot was one of three that had ricocheted off the road two metres behind McAnespie.[4][5] Charges were initially brought against Grenadier Guard Jonathan Holden for manslaughter but were dropped prior to prosecution.[3] He was fined for negligent discharge of the weapon and in 1990 was given a medical discharge.[6]

:eek: The British army finding a British soldier innocent.......:rolleyes: I know who could give them justice though

xflyer

I can back up Stovepipe on this, having spent time in Monaghan around Lynagh's time. Yes there was an air of intimidation there at the time. Even defence force personnel were warned to keep their heads down and certain bars were out of bounds for them. Even then it was said of him that he had eight kills to his name and I'm not talking about in battles with British soldiers. He was one for knocking on doors and shooting people dead.

I cannot help wondering what age hellsbrink and paky are. I lived through those times and was eventually sickened by the actions of the IRA and what they did in our name. It seems to me there is a younger generation who now only read of it as propagandised history.

It always seem to me that Loughgall was a straightforward military operation. The IRA cell was wiped out in a classic military ambush. Tough luck, call them heroes if you like but don't complain that it was unfair. The very title of this thread is pure propaganda, Shoot to kill? The IRA planted a bomb and then opened fire. So the Brits shot back. That's war.

It always seems to me that the apologists for IRA actions are quick to ignore the slaughter of innocent civilians on the part of the IRA. For people to complain about a bunch of volunteers getting killed in action but to ignore the scores of men, women and children who were slaughterd by the IRA in the name of Ireland is sickeningly hypocritical.

It was a terrible time in Irish history, a shameful period where being Irish meant you couldn't go anywhere without being associated with terrorism and atrocities.

HellsAngel

Outrage by defenders of the British state regarding the troubles should be taken with a large pinch of salt as the said outrage is largely determined by just who does the killing & who does the dying. Their great 'heros' the SAS and RUC Special Branch etc as part of the Brit dirty tricks campaign were up to their necks invovled with arming and directing the loyalists throughout the troubles. And for what reason do they carry out such terrorism - out of a warped sense of adventure and macho thrist to inflict violence on others. But when the tables are turned and their on the receiving end we have to watch the hypocritical whingeing about the injustice of ' terrorism ' :rolleyes:

shaneybaby

xflyer wrote: »

I can back up Stovepipe on this, having spent time in Monaghan around Lynagh's time....It was a terrible time in Irish history, a shameful period where being Irish meant you couldn't go anywhere without being associated with terrorism and atrocities.

excellent post, fair play.

Wolfe Tone

cruasder777 wrote: »

The soldier must have been an incredible shot to deliberately shoot someone via a richochet.

wiki
Forensic evidence suggested that the fatal shot was one of three that had ricocheted off the road two metres behind McAnespie.[4][5] Charges were initially brought against Grenadier Guard Jonathan Holden for manslaughter but were dropped prior to prosecution.[3] He was fined for negligent discharge of the weapon and in 1990 was given a medical discharge.[6]

Why did you not quote this bit?

In June 2008, the Police Service of Northern Ireland Historical Enquiries Team published its findings on the case. The report called the soldier's explanation for the killing the "least likely version" of what happened. The Ministry of Defence said it had co-operated with the inquiry and understood that this did not uncover any new evidence that would warrant further investigation.[5] In October 2008, a Police Service of Northern Ireland investigation concluded that Jonathan Holden's gun required 9 lbs of pressure to pull the trigger, and that the soldier's account of the events were highly unlikely. It described the chances of this occurring, combined with hitting McAnespie by accident as, "so remote as to be virtually disregarded".[14]

xflyer

What the Brits did or didn't do doesn't justify the Bloody Friday, Birmingham, Guildford, Enniskillen, Warrington to name but a well known few. It doesn't justify any of many less well known murders and bombings which you conveniently ignore. The IRA murdered a lot of people over the years........for Ireland!

I'm no apologist for the what the British or Loyalists did. But they didn't claim to be representing me when they did it.

The fact that you don't want to face up to the fact that the IRA campaign became terrorist in nature and essentially failed. A fact they themselves recognised to the point where they abandoned it and now share power with their enemies.

They moved on, maybe you should too.

cruasder777

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Why did you not quote this bit?

An accidental discharge or at worst firing a shot at the ground which then kills the unfortnate victim is harly the same as what the PIRA did.

The soldier was charged with manslaughter, but there was not enough evidence to prosecute.

Thats the reality, never mind the hysteria.

quote
In June 2008, the Police Service of Northern Ireland Historical Enquiries Team published its findings on the case. The report called the soldier's explanation for the killing the "least likely version" of what happened.


......The soldier said hes wet hands slipped on the trigger, its impossible to know if thats true or not or if its the least likely version.