Shoot to Kill

paky · 27-08-2011 06:20PM #1

I can remember watching a documentary on the loughall martyrs and one of the victims brothers was been interviewed. He mentioned that even though the murders were a success for the security forces, the impact of the murders had a different effect on the nationalist community. Support rose for the IRA and the number of bombings and shootings increased the following year. I was just wondering how this was so if 8 experienced guerilla fighters are killed, who is there to train the new fighters and why would there be a rise in support? I thought at least this would be devastating to IRA moral? please dont turn this into a p.issing contest.
thanks

goldie fish · 27-08-2011 06:43PM

paky wrote: »

I can remember watching a propaganda film on the loughall RUC Barracks ambush and one of the terrorists brothers was been interviewed. He mentioned that even though the killing of terrorists were a success for the security forces, the impact of the deaths had a different effect on the Terrorist supporters. Support rose for the IRA and the number of attempted murders increased the following year. I was just wondering how this was so if 8 murdering scumbags are killed, who is there to train the new terrorists and why would there be a rise in support amongst their fellow knuckle draggers? I thought at least this would be devastating to IRA morale? chuck chuck chuckiee
thanks

Fixed.

HellsAngel · 27-08-2011 06:56PM

paky wrote: »

I can remember watching a documentary on the loughall martyrs and one of the victims brothers was been interviewed. He mentioned that even though the murders were a success for the security forces, the impact of the murders had a different effect on the nationalist community. Support rose for the IRA and the number of bombings and shootings increased the following year. I was just wondering how this was so if 8 experienced guerilla fighters are killed, who is there to train the new fighters and why would there be a rise in support? I thought at least this would be devastating to IRA moral? please dont turn this into a p.issing contest.
thanks

Loughgall was followed up by the nearby Ballygawley bus bombing which killed 8 Brits and maimed 28 others, so much for Loughgall been the ' killer blow ' to the IRA in the area.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballygawley_bus_bombing

goldie fish · 27-08-2011 08:06PM

Brave boys. Got slaughtered in a proper gunfight, so resorted to the soft option.

newby.204 · 27-08-2011 08:50PM

goldie fish wrote: »

Brave boys. Got slaughtered in a proper gunfight, so resorted to the soft option.

I'll preface this by saying i have zero support for the IRA(and all its break-away factions) They got slaughtered by the SAS, not some standard Infantry Unit, and to be honest if they hadn't it would raise some serious questions about the effectiveness of special forces troops, there was a reason the SAS were picked for the ambush. Furthermore bravery has nothing to do with warfare, (PLEASE DO NOT ATTACK ME I DO NOT CONDONE ANY DELIBERATE BOMBING OF CIVILIANS), of course they picked a soft target they wanted theirs back for the 8 they lost.

savagecabbages · 27-08-2011 08:53PM

Well it worked didn't it?

War is hell goldie.
-not that i condone killing anyone, but if your a strong enough believer in your political system, and want to go to war, then why not practice a bit of self preservation when faced with a superior force?

This country gained its independence in a war fought using similar tactics.

cruasder777 · 27-08-2011 09:54PM

paky wrote: »

I can remember watching a documentary on the loughall martyrs and one of the victims brothers was been interviewed. He mentioned that even though the murders were a success for the security forces, the impact of the murders had a different effect on the nationalist community. Support rose for the IRA and the number of bombings and shootings increased the following year. I was just wondering how this was so if 8 experienced guerilla fighters are killed, who is there to train the new fighters and why would there be a rise in support? I thought at least this would be devastating to IRA moral? please dont turn this into a p.issing contest.
thanks

The PIRA were also fighting a propaganda war, they poured in resourses from other areas, the reality is overall yr on yr their level of attacks went down from killing hundreds per yr in the early 70s to a handful by the late 80s. Their campaign was unsustainable.

This is the calibre of the work of the work of those ambushed at Loughgall. And the cowards dared to complain about being ambushed and shot while armed.

Shooting dead 86 yr old unarmed men is an act of cowardice.

"On the 22nd of January 1981 an IRA active service unit from Monaghan Town and under the leadership of IRA Commander, Jim Lynagh, carried out what most normal people would describe as a cowardly act of double murder. The IRA unit travelled in two vehicles to the picturesque village of Glaslough in County Monaghan, from here the IRA unit using a back road, crossed the border into Tynan close to Middletown in County Armagh. The IRA unit then held two families hostage and stole their cars. The IRA unit then proceeded to drive to the home (Tynan Abbey) of 86 year old Sir Norman Strong and his 48 year old son James. Sir Norman had been the former Speaker of the Stormont Government but had retired in 1969. His son James was a former Member of Parliament.

The IRA men then forced the front door of the Abbey. Upon hearing the door being forced Sir Norman and his son set off distress flares to alert the police that they were under attack. However, the IRA men continued with their plan. Sir Norman and his son James were summarily executed in the library by Jim Lynagh (shot dead 1987) and another IRA member who remains alive today. The men then planted two incendiary bombs that had been earlier prepared by Lynagh. The incendiaries had been planted to burn the Abbey.

. Shannon claimed in the Dublin High Court that the murder of Sir Norman and his son James were political acts; however, the High Court judge stated that:

These crimes are so brutal, cowardly and callous that it would be a distortion of language if they were to be accorded the status of political offence."

http://theirishobserver.blogspot.com/2010/10/murder-of-sir-norman-strong.html

indioblack · 27-08-2011 10:16PM

savagecabbages wrote: »

Well it worked didn't it?

War is hell goldie.
-not that i condone killing anyone, but if your a strong enough believer in your political system, and want to go to war, then why not practice a bit of self preservation when faced with a superior force?

This country gained its independence in a war fought using similar tactics.

War is hell - so if you've got the "superior force" would you not use it?
If you can detonate an explosive device under your opponent does that not give you a temporary, localised, potential "superiority".
And wouldn't you use it?
"not that i condone killing anyone, but"........I do in certain circumstances.
It's either acceptable or it's not.

savagecabbages · 28-08-2011 04:11AM

Its not. Your putting words into my mouth now. Please Don't do that.

If the PIRA fought a conventional war they would have lasted days, maybe hours. Would you really expect them to go up against a professional, well trained, well equipped modern army?

A poster sarcastically called them brave, and accused them of going for a soft target. Should they have gone for a hard target, and certainly loose? I know which one i'd be picking if i were a young brainwashed freedom fighter in a state of war with another country...

goldie fish · 28-08-2011 11:09AM

Big boys rules.

Manic Moran · 28-08-2011 04:56PM

savagecabbages wrote: »

If the PIRA fought a conventional war they would have lasted days, maybe hours. Would you really expect them to go up against a professional, well trained, well equipped modern army?

Insurgent groups in Iraq and Afghanistan have been going up against well trained, well equipped modern armies for about a decade and are still alive and kicking. Engagements on their terms, to be sure, but they are attacking hard targets.

NTM

savagecabbages · 28-08-2011 05:25PM

But the insurgents in Iraq/Afghanistan aren't fighting a conventional war either are they? My point point is that small paramilitary forces can't stand up to proper armies in the 'old fashioned' honorable way...
To achieve their goals, different tactics must be used.

And I'm sure if soldiers were being bussed around Iraq or Afghanistan like the ones at Ballygalway were they would present a very appealing soft target for the insurgents.

HellsAngel · 28-08-2011 06:43PM

cruasder777 wrote: »

The PIRA were also fighting a propaganda war, they poured in resourses from other areas, the reality is overall yr on yr their level of attacks went down from killing hundreds per yr in the early 70s to a handful by the late 80s. Their campaign was unsustainable.

This is the calibre of the work of the work of those ambushed at Loughgall. And the cowards dared to complain about being ambushed and shot while armed.

Shooting dead 86 yr old unarmed men is an act of cowardice.

"On the 22nd of January 1981 an IRA active service unit from Monaghan Town and under the leadership of IRA Commander, Jim Lynagh, carried out what most normal people would describe as a cowardly act of double murder. The IRA unit travelled in two vehicles to the picturesque village of Glaslough in County Monaghan, from here the IRA unit using a back road, crossed the border into Tynan close to Middletown in County Armagh. The IRA unit then held two families hostage and stole their cars. The IRA unit then proceeded to drive to the home (Tynan Abbey) of 86 year old Sir Norman Strong and his 48 year old son James. Sir Norman had been the former Speaker of the Stormont Government but had retired in 1969. His son James was a former Member of Parliament.

The IRA men then forced the front door of the Abbey. Upon hearing the door being forced Sir Norman and his son set off distress flares to alert the police that they were under attack. However, the IRA men continued with their plan. Sir Norman and his son James were summarily executed in the library by Jim Lynagh (shot dead 1987) and another IRA member who remains alive today. The men then planted two incendiary bombs that had been earlier prepared by Lynagh. The incendiaries had been planted to burn the Abbey.

. Shannon claimed in the Dublin High Court that the murder of Sir Norman and his son James were political acts; however, the High Court judge stated that:

These crimes are so brutal, cowardly and callous that it would be a distortion of language if they were to be accorded the status of political offence."

http://theirishobserver.blogspot.com/2010/10/murder-of-sir-norman-strong.html

Unionist bigot and Grand Master of the Royal Black Institution , Norman Stronge and his son were executed by the Provos in retaliation for the attempted murder of former Civil Rights leader Bernadette McAliskey and her husband in front of their children on the 16 January 1981. Stronge and the son were were shot on the 21 of Janurary with the IRA escaping by shooting their way through an RUC cordon to make it back to Monaghan.

Jim Lynagh is mentioned in Bernard O'Mahoney's Soldier of the Queen. Apperently when ever he slipped the Guards in the south, the British had to be told and it was fowarded to all British forces in the South Armagh/Fermanagh region to be on high alert. You may not like him, but even his enemies can admit he was a very capable individual indeed.

HellsAngel · 28-08-2011 07:32PM

goldie fish wrote: »

Brave boys. Got slaughtered in a proper gunfight, so resorted to the soft option.

Well Tom Barry, Dan Breen and Vinny Byrne etc didn't hang around until enough Brits came to vastly outnumber them and then attack them. When your vastly outnumbered your tatic is to shoot and scoot.

The history of the Brits is attacking by greater numbers or vastly superior firepower, attack people in greater numbers or mow down with Gattling guns or cannon shot, men only armed with spears, slings etc

Simples

indioblack · 28-08-2011 07:51PM

HellsAngel wrote: »

Well Tom Barry, Dan Breen and Vinny Byrne etc didn't hang around until enough Brits came to vastly outnumber them and then attack them. When your vastly outnumbered your tatic is to shoot and scoot.

The history of the Brits is attacking by greater numbers or vastly superior firepower, attack people in greater numbers or mow down with Gattling guns or cannon shot, men only armed with spears, slings etc

Simples

Firstly, apologies to savagecabbages for trying to put words into his mouth.
So - it was an uncoventional "war". Well, alright then. What's wrong with that? You pit your strength against your opponents weakness - it gives you an advantage.
Your opponent is going to do the same - simples.
BTW - who was there to give MacAliskey first-aid and get her to hospital.

cruasder777 · 28-08-2011 08:29PM

HellsAngel wrote: »

Unionist bigot and Grand Master of the Royal Black Institution , Norman Stronge and his son were executed by the Provos in retaliation for the attempted murder of former Civil Rights leader Bernadette McAliskey and her husband in front of their children on the 16 January 1981. Stronge and the son were were shot on the 21 of Janurary with the IRA escaping by shooting their way through an RUC cordon to make it back to Monaghan.

Jim Lynagh is mentioned in Bernard O'Mahoney's Soldier of the Queen. Apperently when ever he slipped the Guards in the south, the British had to be told and it was fowarded to all British forces in the South Armagh/Fermanagh region to be on high alert. You may not like him, but even his enemies can admit he was a very capable individual indeed.

So shooting dead an unarmed part blind 84 yr old is ok and an act of legitimate warfare ?

Manic Moran · 28-08-2011 08:45PM

Unionist bigot and Grand Master of the Royal Black Institution , Norman Stronge and his son were executed by the Provos in retaliation for the attempted murder of former Civil Rights leader Bernadette McAliskey and her husband in front of their children on the 16 January 1981

I am not entirely sure that helps the PIRA's case.

Especially since the people who attemped to kill Mrs McAliskey had been detained by the British Army afterwards.

NTM

paky · 28-08-2011 10:55PM

thanks for the comments lads, but can we keep it on an independent point of view please

cruasder777 · 28-08-2011 11:03PM

paky wrote: »

thanks for the comments lads, but can we keep it on an independent point of view please

Quote Paky
"I can remember watching a documentary on the loughall martyrs and one of the victims brothers was been interviewed. He mentioned that even though the murders were a success for the security forces, the impact of the murders had a different effect on the nationalist community. "

Are you having a laugh ?

laoch na mona · 28-08-2011 11:58PM

it was a propaganda win like the hunger strikers
they had more than 8 skilled fighters sure

Stovepipe · 29-08-2011 12:15AM

Hi all,
Let's just add a few salient facts here. 13 RUC officers were injured, some severely, in the bomb attack on the police station that preceeded the IRA opening fire, so it wasn't a one-sided wipeout.An innocent civilian was also killed. Also, from knowing something of Monaghan life on the Southern side, Lynagh and his crew were regarded as little more than intimidating Mafia-style thugs by a very large section of the locals. There was precious little sympathy for him, as his gang held a lot of people in fear.
regards
Stovepipe

HellsAngel · 29-08-2011 01:26PM

Manic Moran wrote: »

I am not entirely sure that helps the PIRA's case.

Especially since the people who attemped to kill Mrs McAliskey had been detained by the British Army afterwards.

NTM

I'm sure that some of those killed in Loughgall besides Jim Lynagh were invovled in the retalitory killing of unionist figurehead Norman Stronge and his son. But the issue of collusion surrounding the attempted murder of Bernadette and her husband would almost take a thread in it's own right.

HellsAngel · 29-08-2011 01:51PM

Stovepipe wrote: »

Hi all,
Let's just add a few salient facts here. 13 RUC officers were injured, some severely, in the bomb attack on the police station that preceeded the IRA opening fire, so it wasn't a one-sided wipeout.An innocent civilian was also killed.

I'm glad you brought this up, a factor always ignored by the SAS daring do Andy McNab readers. Loughgall was far from the 100% succesful operation that the comic readers would like to believe. Apart from the killing of Anthony Hughes and wounding of his brother, according to author Raymond Murray of The SAS in Ireland citing the Irish Times of 5 June 1987, another six IRA members driving three scout cars in a supporting role made good their escape ( I wonder how many of them were invovled in the revenge bus bomibing in Ballygawley ?)

But one factor regarding the killing of Anthony Hughes and wounding of his brother, it was alleged by the SAS/Brits that both were wearing blue overalls similar to those worn by the IRA members and were mistaken to be IRA members themselves. However I have never seen an interview or heard from Anthony Hughes to back up their claim taht they were indded wearing blue overalls similar to those worn by the IRA members ??

Also, from knowing something of Monaghan life on the Southern side, Lynagh and his crew were regarded as little more than intimidating Mafia-style thugs by a very large section of the locals. There was precious little sympathy for him, as his gang held a lot of people in fear.
regards
Stovepipe

Is that why Jim Lynagh was elected as a councillior for Sinn Fein in Monaghan ? But the vast majority of Monaghan people would not have high regard for the SAS and their loyalist proxy gangs along with the UDR and RUC etc that fellas like yourself seem to have

cruasder777 · 29-08-2011 02:31PM

HellsAngel wrote: »

I'm glad you brought this up, a factor always ignored by the SAS daring do Andy McNab readers. Loughgall was far from the 100% succesful operation that the comic readers would like to believe. Apart from the killing of Anthony Hughes and wounding of his brother, according to author Raymond Murray of The SAS in Ireland citing the Irish Times of 5 June 1987, another six IRA members driving three scout cars in a supporting role made good their escape ( I wonder how many of them were invovled in the revenge bus bomibing in Ballygawley ?)

But one factor regarding the killing of Anthony Hughes and wounding of his brother, it was alleged by the SAS/Brits that both were wearing blue overalls similar to those worn by the IRA members and were mistaken to be IRA members themselves. However I have never seen an interview or heard from Anthony Hughes to back up their claim taht they were indded wearing blue overalls similar to those worn by the IRA members ??

Is that why Jim Lynagh was elected as a councillior for Sinn Fein in Monaghan ? But the vast majority of Monaghan people would not have high regard for the SAS and their loyalist proxy gangs along with the UDR and RUC etc that fellas like yourself seem to have

The innocent guy shot dead had the misfortune to be wearing a boiler suit when stopped at a checkpoint on the edge of the ambush, and started to reverse his car.

It was the biggest IRA single loss since 1920, according to you that makes it a failure for the SAS.

As for your claim of "another six IRA members driving three scout cars in a supporting role made good their escape,"

this is total bs, the army and inteligence services had been watching the PIRS ASU for days, they were watched all they way during the preparation and journey.

They had check points to stop vehicles entering or leaving the village after the PIRA drove in.

In fact the PIRA sent a scout into the village an hour before and he never spotted the ambush, they were well dug in.

HellsAngel · 29-08-2011 02:50PM

cruasder777 wrote: »

The innocent guy shot dead had the misfortune to be wearing a boiler suit when stopped at a checkpoint on the edge of the ambush, and started to reverse his car.

Well as I said, that's the SAS/Brits version, is their any TV or radio report quoting Mr Hughes surviving brother to back up their allegation ?

It was the biggest IRA single loss since 1920, according to you that makes it a failure for the SAS.

I never stated it was a failure, I clearly stated it was not the 100% success that the Andy McNab comic readers would like to believe with the murder of a totally innocent man and several of the IRA team escaping, to take revenge at later occasions. But you are right partly right about it been the biggest IRA single loss since 1920. It was their biggest loss since Sefton Hill, Leitrim, 11th March 1921 whne the SAS's predessers the Tans killed the local IRA men as they slept thanks to a unionist rat from Mohill who was later found out and dispatched. Since the troubles went on for 25 years, given all their electronic survalience, rats etc, even the Brits would have to get lucky sometime.

As for your claim of "another six IRA members driving three scout cars in a supporting role made good their escape,"

this is total bs, the army and inteligence services had been watching the PIRS ASU for days, they were watched all they way during the preparation and journey.

They had check points to stop vehicles entering or leaving the village after the PIRA drove in.

In fact the PIRA sent a scout into the village an hour before and he never spotted the ambush, they were well dug in.

The claim is in Raymond Murray's The SAS in Ireland p380. Raymond Murray has worked for organisations such as Amenesty International investigating controversial killings by states around teh world. The book is written in a clinical fashion and not Andy McNab/Chris Ryan SAS "are the greatest in the world" BS.

cruasder777 · 29-08-2011 02:57PM

HellsAngel wrote: »

Well as I said, that's the SAS/Brits version, is their any TV or radio report quoting Mr Hughes surviving brother to back up their allegation ?

I never stated it was a failure, I clearly stated it was not the 100% success that the Andy McNab comic readers would like to believe with the murder of a totally innocent man and several of the IRA team escaping, to take revenge at later occasions. But you are right partly right about it been the biggest IRA single loss since 1920. It was their biggest loss since Sefton Hill, Leitrim, 11th March 1921 whne the SAS's predessers the Tans killed the local IRA men as they slept thanks to a unionist rat from Mohill who was later found out and dispatched. Since the troubles went on for 25 years, given all their electronic survalience, rats etc, even the Brits would have to get lucky sometime.

The claim is in Raymond Murray's The SAS in Ireland p380. Raymond Murray has worked for organisations such as Amenesty International investigating controversial killings by states around teh world. The book is written in a clinical fashion and not Andy McNab/Chris Ryan SAS "are the greatest in the world" BS.

" According to author Raymond Murray, citing Jim Cussack's article in The Irish Times of 5 June 1987, another six members driving three scout cars in a supporting role made good their escape"

Jim Cussack is the No 1 bs journalist on NI he has made numerous made up claims over the years.

The claim members of the PIRA ASU unit escaped its total bs, without any evidence.

But PIRA scouts did go through the village earlier.

HellsAngel · 29-08-2011 03:08PM

cruasder777 wrote: »

" According to author Raymond Murray, citing Jim Cussack's article in The Irish Times of 5 June 1987, another six members driving three scout cars in a supporting role made good their escape"

Jim Cussack is the No 1 bs journalist on NI he has made numerous made up claims over the years.

The claim members of the PIRA ASU unit escaped its total bs, without any evidence.

Thats not to stay PIRA scouts did go through the village earlier.

Well if that's how you feel regarding Raymond Murray who has worked for Amenesty etc But is there an interview with Anthony's Hughes brother confirming the SAS/Brit allegation that they were wearing blue boiler suits ?? And why does it not upset you that those who killed Anthony Hughes have never been prosecuted with his death ??

cruasder777 · 29-08-2011 03:46PM

HellsAngel wrote: »

Well if that's how you feel regarding Raymond Murray who has worked for Amenesty etc But is there an interview with Anthony's Hughes brother confirming the SAS/Brit allegation that they were wearing blue boiler suits ?? And why does it not upset you that those who killed Anthony Hughes have never been prosecuted with his death ??

Murray got his info from sensationalist hack Jim Cussack.

There was an enquiry into the death, it was an accidental shooting caused partly by the guy being in the wrong place at the wrong time, wearing a boiler suit and reversing his car at a checkpoint, the family got damages.

Why would there be a prosecution ?

HellsAngel · 29-08-2011 05:50PM

cruasder777 wrote: »

Murray got his info from sensationalist hack Jim Cussack.

Well maybe Murray made a mistake using information from Cusak who is a BSer.

There was an enquiry into the death, it was an accidental shooting caused partly by the guy being in the wrong place at the wrong time, wearing a boiler suit and reversing his car at a checkpoint, the family got damages.

Why would there be a prosecution ?

For the 3rd or 4th time , do you or anyone else have say, a TV or radio interview with Anthony's Hughes brother confirming the SAS/Brit allegation that they were wearing blue boiler suits ??

Local-womanizer · 29-08-2011 06:35PM

HellsAngel wrote: »

For the 3rd or 4th time , do you or anyone else have say, a TV or radio interview with Anthony's Hughes brother confirming the SAS/Brit allegation that they were wearing blue boiler suits ??

Out of interest, have you a radio or TV interview from Anthony Hughes brother denying the SAS account of what his brother was wearing?

HellsAngel · 29-08-2011 07:02PM

Local-womanizer wrote: »

Out of interest, have you a radio or TV interview from Anthony Hughes brother denying the SAS account of what his brother was wearing?

Since the SAS/Brits were the ones claiming the Hughes brothers were wearing blue boiler suits, the onus is on them, or their fans on here, to provide reliable proof rather than their claims isn't it ??

Shoot to Kill

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