garda reserve. One year since I left.

boars · 27-08-2011 12:21am #1

Hi everyone.
I've been back on boards lately and i find myself always going back and reading the emergency services forum every now and again.
I thought i would leave a post a year on since i left the reserve- as an example of what i got from the garda reserve- (especially in light of the recent leaving cert results and anyone who is leaving school hoping to get a taste of policing)

I was a reserve for three years and i left the reserves one year ago to pursue a social work degree in england. (some reserves here may know me)

I did not have the points for the degree nor was i a mature student (i was young joining the reserve) but what the reserve did for me was get me into a lvl 8 degree (with requirements of over 450 leaving cert points) using my garda reserve experience as a stepping stone.

Admittedly i was a reserve for a good while but i thought i would give an example of what the reserve was able to provide me in terms of acess to higher leve education and a wealth of skills and expereinces that i will use for the rest of my life.

One year on i will be going into a second year of my uni course and hopefully employment when i finish.
If any reserves are considering moving into university i would be more than willing to give advice and feel free to pm.

just wanted to say that the reserves helped me a lot and gave me a chance i would have never had (although a year ago standing in the rain outside a pub i would have never of thought it)
A year on i do miss it- and i still feel the pull of wanting to become a guard- but i dont regret a day i volunteered as a reserve. I may join again once i finish my course in england and return to ireland (but in the current job climate i'm not in any rush to return home)

kerry4sam · 27-08-2011 12:33am

boars wrote: »

Hi everyone.
I've been back on boards lately and i find myself always going back and reading the emergency services forum every now and again.
I thought i would leave a post a year on since i left the reserve- as an example of what i got from the garda reserve- (especially in light of the recent leaving cert results and anyone who is leaving school hoping to get a taste of policing)

I was a reserve for three years and i left the reserves one year ago to pursue a social work degree in england. (some reserves here may know me)

I did not have the points for the degree nor was i a mature student (i was young joining the reserve) but what the reserve did for me was get me into a lvl 8 degree (with requirements of over 450 leaving cert points) using my garda reserve experience as a stepping stone.

Admittedly i was a reserve for a good while but i thought i would give an example of what the reserve was able to provide me in terms of acess to higher leve education and a wealth of skills and expereinces that i will use for the rest of my life.

One year on i will be going into a second year of my uni course and hopefully employment when i finish.
If any reserves are considering moving into university i would be more than willing to give advice and feel free to pm.

just wanted to say that the reserves helped me a lot and gave me a chance i would have never had (although a year ago standing in the rain outside a pub i would have never of thought it)
A year on i do miss it- and i still feel the pull of wanting to become a guard- but i dont regret a day i volunteered as a reserve. I may join again once i finish my course in england and return to ireland (but in the current job climate i'm not in any rush to return home)

Many thanks for this. Would you mind though if I asked:
- From your own experience, is their anything you thought needed changing back then?
- Have you any advice you would offer a rookie reserve like myself?

Thanks again for this post, brought a smile to my face anyway

boars · 27-08-2011 1:12am

- From your own experience, is their anything you thought needed changing back then?

I'm kind of divided about the whole 'reserves should have more power'
in my view more powers= more court + paperwork time and that would not have suited me
yes there were always times when i felt inaqdequet without powers.

I quickly discovered that most people have no clue you are a reserve or the powers you dont have -never forgetting the incident where a guy told me his cousin was in the reserves and he thought them a waste of time and had no clue he was talking to one

- Have you any advice you would offer a rookie reserve like myself?

*My advice- know your role 'sorry about the rock quote

'
you are there to assist regulars- they outrank you and no amount of experience will change it.

*i always liked community policing and talking to people- i also found it took the boredom out of beat- and imo its the most beneficial type of policing. In my opinion having strong links to the community you are policing is so important and one of the things missing in england atm i believe (but thats for a different thread)

*confidentiality- i never had any problems but i know people who did. especially regarding internet forums.

*Truth is you dont have much powers- you must use your head and your carismatic skills (i can almost hear the snickering) to calm situations. I know it sounds silly but i felt that i could sell water to a sailor after certain situations had subsided. patience of a saint does not begin to describe.

*I seen a few nasty accidents, if you are stressed do talk about it to your sic or cig, i dont care what anyone says- after a few modules of trauma and therapy on my course- you should talk to someone about the things that disturb you. You may never see anything though i know reserves have

kerry4sam · 27-08-2011 2:13am

boars wrote: »

...
I quickly discovered that most people have no clue you are a reserve or the powers you dont have -never forgetting the incident where a guy told me his cousin was in the reserves and he thought them a waste of time and had no clue he was talking to one
...

I know that there are people out there who still don’t understand the reserve concept; why people volunteer to assist in their communities and want to gain first-hand experience with the aim of going full-time. I know people don’t know what powers an attested member has and I know for certain their will always be people out there who just don’t want to know the answers to any of the above either and that's just grand. They can try and justify that any which way they like.

boars wrote: »

...

*My advice- know your role 'sorry about the rock quote '
you are there to assist regulars- they outrank you and no amount of experience will change it.

*i always liked community policing and talking to people- i also found it took the boredom out of beat- and imo its the most beneficial type of policing. In my opinion having strong links to the community you are policing is so important and one of the things missing in england atm i believe (but thats for a different thread)

*confidentiality- i never had any problems but i know people who did. especially regarding internet forums.

*Truth is you dont have much powers- you must use your head and your carismatic skills (i can almost hear the snickering) to calm situations. I know it sounds silly but i felt that i could sell water to a sailor after certain situations had subsided. patience of a saint does not begin to describe.

*I seen a few nasty accidents, if you are stressed do talk about it to your sic or cig, i dont care what anyone says- after a few modules of trauma and therapy on my course- you should talk to someone about the things that disturb you. You may never see anything though i know reserves have

I only know of one person who was offered compol but turned it down and even after hearing varying opinions on that, I still don’t grasp why. I would love to work with the Community Policing unit where I am but that doesn’t seem to be on the cards at all.

In my job I meet people from all walks of life who don’t hesitate in telling me about their day or travels and some of what they tell me actually sends shivers down my spine – genuine, honest and decent people who only want a set of ears to hear them and I enjoy that.

I agree that links to the community is vital, that cannot be emphasised enough to recruits while in Templemore in my opinion. Using your head; charismatic and level-headed people always get the best of every situation they are in I have seen that fact first-hand with members from my unit, fantastic to see first-hand in uniform in different situations.

I do appreciate your thread here and thank you for your honesty, and of course your return to our ES forum.
Any other advice; tips; even criticism, please don't be a stranger. You would have learned a fair amount in those three years. Send me a pm if you want

. Sincere best wishes also over in the UK. It sounds like you are really enjoying what you're involved in over there

lehanemore · 27-08-2011 11:43am

Hi Boars and thanks for your post.

I too am interested in how you managed to use the GR as a stepping stone to a degree course.

Did they allow you credit for the GR exam or how did it play?

PM if necessary and thanks again for the informative post.

boars · 27-08-2011 12:43pm

i pm'd you

westcoastboy · 28-08-2011 9:58pm

Powers are what we need. The most basic power is The public order act.. you don't need to attend court for this as the cig acts on your behalf .. the specials in the UK get automatically get this power.. i'm In the reserve for four years now.. if you are going full time you should join it..It will be an eye opener for you and great for your cv.. or for promotional purposes in your job I would imagine..

ZoneAlarm · 31-08-2011 2:03pm

boars wrote: »

you are there to assist regulars- they outrank you and no amount of experience will change it.

They are the same rank as you are, no different except for the extra powers they have, you dont answer to them, only to your Sgt, Cig, Super, etc.

Im not trying to stir anything here just pointing out a fact!

redsurfer · 01-09-2011 11:24am

We are out ranked by full members, fact. Do i never heard of this being a issue. "With reduced training, these duties and powers must be operated under the supervision of regular members of the Force, and are also limited from those of regular members"

Commissioner
Deputy Commissioner
Assistant Commissioner
Chief Superintendent
Superintendent
Inspector
Sergeant
Gardaí
Reserve Gardaí
Student Gardaí
Student Reserve

ZoneAlarm · 01-09-2011 12:40pm

redsurfer wrote: »

We are out ranked by full members, fact. Do i never heard of this being a issue. "With reduced training, these duties and powers must be operated under the supervision of regular members of the Force, and are also limited from those of regular members"

Commissioner
Deputy Commissioner
Assistant Commissioner
Chief Superintendent
Superintendent
Inspector
Sergeant
Gardaí
Reserve Gardaí
Student Gardaí
Student Reserve

I think you will find you are not out ranked, you are the same rank as a Garda, if you do something wrong the full time member "cannot" discipline a Reserve garda, or give them a ticking off either, the only difference is they are full time you are part time, they have full powers, you have little or no powers, simple.

If you want something done, you dont go the a full time member ie Garda, you go to your Sgt, or higher, same as they have to.

CO19 · 01-09-2011 4:46pm

ZoneAlarm wrote: »

I think you will find you are not out ranked, you are the same rank as a Garda,

Spot on,had my Cig tell that to a lad on my unit there a while back.

Eru · 22-03-2012 12:16am

ZoneAlarm wrote: »

I think you will find you are not out ranked, you are the same rank as a Garda, if you do something wrong the full time member "cannot" discipline a Reserve garda, or give them a ticking off either, the only difference is they are full time you are part time, they have full powers, you have little or no powers, simple.

A Sergeant cannot discipline a member of Garda rank either. Only a Superintendent can. Sergeants can only caution a member of Garda rank (give them a ticking off). So by your logic they are not a higher rank.

fulltime supervise reserves in much the same way that a sergeant would when on the beat and last time I looked a reserves badge states the rank of 'Reserve Garda' not 'Garda' like a fulltimers does.

I have had to speak with a reserve who acted the bollock when on the beat with me. Thankfully it was a once off.

blueforce · 22-03-2012 8:07am

Hi Eru,

Without "naming & shaming" could you tell us what the reserve did wrong? Sometimes it's difficult to know what to do, generally if I'm sitting in the back and there's 2 full timers in the front and we respond to a call, I'll stay quiet and watch rather then interrupt what's going on. Different if it's a fight and it's all hands on deck. Where as if I'm the "unofficial official observer" with just one other guard, I'll usually get more involved in a situation. It's going to be difficult getting more powers, some reserves will arrest anyone they see and others might shy away cause they know there could be repocussions for what they do.

Eru · 22-03-2012 7:30pm

blueforce wrote: »

Hi Eru,

Without "naming & shaming" could you tell us what the reserve did wrong? Sometimes it's difficult to know what to do, generally if I'm sitting in the back and there's 2 full timers in the front and we respond to a call, I'll stay quiet and watch rather then interrupt what's going on. Different if it's a fight and it's all hands on deck. Where as if I'm the "unofficial official observer" with just one other guard, I'll usually get more involved in a situation. It's going to be difficult getting more powers, some reserves will arrest anyone they see and others might shy away cause they know there could be repocussions for what they do.

First off, my comments above shouldnt read as "im better than you", blue is blue is blue.

Better not give details just that it was what he wouldn't do instead of doing something wrong. I took the view that a reserve or any other rank that stands still and wont do anything is a waste of a uniform.

I think more of the bread and butter powers need to be given, POA is a must as far as I am concerned and I'm sure a system could be introduced to facilitate court, etc but then I also fail to see why so much of fulltimers time is spent in court.

Shield · 22-03-2012 11:44pm

@Eru - that guy has closed his account!

Eru · 23-03-2012 10:59am

Shield wrote: »

@Eru - that guy has closed his account!

I didn't do nutin

TylerIE · 26-03-2012 8:28pm

Eru wrote: »

A Sergeant cannot discipline a member of Garda rank either. Only a Superintendent can. Sergeants can only caution a member of Garda rank (give them a ticking off). So by your logic they are not a higher rank.

fulltime supervise reserves in much the same way that a sergeant would when on the beat and last time I looked a reserves badge states the rank of 'Reserve Garda' not 'Garda' like a fulltimers does.

I have had to speak with a reserve who acted the bollock when on the beat with me. Thankfully it was a once off.

Would it be fair to say that you speaking to the GR was similar to how you may speak to a new or less experienced regular Garda who had a lapse in judgement, rather than the way a Sgt would speak to a Garda, as in its more "words of advice".

While reserves obviously need to watch, listen and learn from Regular Gardai there does seem to be instances where some Regular Gardai feel the Reserve is just an observer /student to be bossed, rather than a much less experienced colleague who has a separate, but potentially useful role, once they develop enough experience.

bluetop · 26-03-2012 9:08pm

TylerIE wrote: »

Would it be fair to say that you speaking to the GR was similar to how you may speak to a new or less experienced regular Garda who had a lapse in judgement, rather than the way a Sgt would speak to a Garda, as in its more "words of advice".

While reserves obviously need to watch, listen and learn from Regular Gardai there does seem to be instances where some Regular Gardai feel the Reserve is just an observer /student to be bossed, rather than a much less experienced colleague who has a separate, but potentially useful role, once they develop enough experience.

ERU also need's to know he is not a higher rank, reserve garda and garda hold the same rank, same way as a retained (reserve) firefighter and a firefighter are same. I think some not all full timers should but themselves in the place of the reserve, just like when they where students and wet behind the ear, did they like the s8it they got from the experienced garda, while at the station, so think before acting.

blueforce · 26-03-2012 10:10pm

bluetop wrote: »

TylerIE wrote: »

Would it be fair to say that you speaking to the GR was similar to how you may speak to a new or less experienced regular Garda who had a lapse in judgement, rather than the way a Sgt would speak to a Garda, as in its more "words of advice".

While reserves obviously need to watch, listen and learn from Regular Gardai there does seem to be instances where some Regular Gardai feel the Reserve is just an observer /student to be bossed, rather than a much less experienced colleague who has a separate, but potentially useful role, once they develop enough experience.

ERU also need's to know he is not a higher rank, reserve garda and garda hold the same rank, same way as a retained (reserve) firefighter and a firefighter are same. I think some not all full timers should but themselves in the place of the reserve, just like when they where students and wet behind the ear, did they like the s8it they got from the experienced garda, while at the station, so think before acting.

There's deffinitly an element in every station where say 80% will get on well with you from the beginning, 10% that you'll have to prove to that you have what it takes and the last 10% that will just never except the reserves. I would like to hear of any reserve that has used there pepperspray/ASP though. How did that go down with the full time member?

Tyron Jara · 27-03-2012 8:28am

bluetop wrote: »

ERU also need's to know he is not a higher rank, reserve garda and garda hold the same rank, same way as a retained (reserve) firefighter and a firefighter are same. I think some not all full timers should but themselves in the place of the reserve, just like when they where students and wet behind the ear, did they like the s8it they got from the experienced garda, while at the station, so think before acting.

Reserve Garda is below the rank of Garda. Thats what I was told time and time again by training sgts and my SIC. A Reserve Garda is no way equal to a garda. Were there as an extra hands and help and what the Garda says goes when on duty(As long as its lawful). Im suprised theres people out there who believe they hold the same rank as a full timer.

bluetop · 27-03-2012 11:39am

Tyron Jara wrote: »

Reserve Garda is below the rank of Garda. Thats what I was told time and time again by training sgts and my SIC. A Reserve Garda is no way equal to a garda. Were there as an extra hands and help and what the Garda says goes when on duty(As long as its lawful). Im suprised theres people out there who believe they hold the same rank as a full timer.

While reserves are an extra pair of hands they are of the same rank, the difference being the full time member has full powers, while the reserve ( part time) has limited powers that is the only difference, reserve garda have full powers as well "BUT" they are held in trust for them by the Commissioner to give out as he sees fit, so tomorrow the Commissioner could go ok today we will give Reserves this, this, and this, what the full-timer says goes only because he is the senior man, same as another garda who is senior will call the shots over them.

King Ludvig · 27-03-2012 12:34pm

On paper Garda and Reserve Garda are the same rank, however, reserves need to be aware that their full time counterparts outrank them in terms of knowledge and experience, and should take direction from a full timer for that reason.

However, "being bossed" around or treated like a second class citizen is a different issue.

Tyron Jara · 27-03-2012 5:41pm

bluetop wrote: »

While reserves are an extra pair of hands they are of the same rank, the difference being the full time member has full powers, while the reserve ( part time) has limited powers that is the only difference, reserve garda have full powers as well "BUT" they are held in trust for them by the Commissioner to give out as he sees fit, so tomorrow the Commissioner could go ok today we will give Reserves this, this, and this, what the full-timer says goes only because he is the senior man, same as another garda who is senior will call the shots over them.

Im sorry I don not agree there. A reserve garda is a rank below a garda. We are not like special constables in the UK. Yes according to legislation we do have full powers that may be authorised by the commissioner but this is the rank structure in decending order.

Garda rank structure in descending order

Commissioner
Deputy Commissioner
Assistant Commissioner
Chief Superintendent
Superintendent
Inspector
Sergeant
Garda
Reserve Garda

King Ludvig wrote: »

On paper Garda and Reserve Garda are the same rank, however, reserves need to be aware that their full time counterparts outrank them in terms of knowledge and experience, and should take direction from a full timer for that reason.

However, "being bossed" around or treated like a second class citizen is a different issue.

We are below the rank of garda however we are not animals or dirt so we deserve to be treated with the same respect as a garda member would show any other rank and in my expierence we are shown great respect and even some admiration for doing the job by full timers. There is the percentage that dislike the reserve concept but thats talk for another time. In a whole it comes down to the person you are. They either like you or they dont it wont matter if your a reserve or not!

bluetop · 27-03-2012 8:37pm

Might be the rank structure you also forgot student garda is under the reserves as well in the structure, so does that mean reserves are there superior ?? "NO" it dont they are also equal to both a reserve and a full-time member, only difference the student dont have any powers while been a student, full-time members cannot reprimand a reserve, or student garda, the only persons you have to answer to is your Sgt, Sig, Super, Commissioner, in that order, same as full-time garda has to.

Garda rank structure in descending order

Commissioner
Deputy Commissioner
Assistant Commissioner
Chief Superintendent
Superintendent
Inspector
Sergeant
Garda
Reserve Garda
Student Garda

TylerIE · 27-03-2012 8:58pm

Tyron Jara wrote: »

We are below the rank of garda however we are not animals or dirt so we deserve to be treated with the same respect as a garda member would show any other rank and

As stated already on those rank listings Student Garda is usually listed below Reserve then Student Reserve is often listed below Student Garda.

Its a straightforward list taken of the website - I have little doubt there was consideration given to putting in a table so that one line would have two different ranks on it.

in my expierence we are shown great respect and even some admiration for doing the job by full timers. There is the percentage that dislike the reserve concept but thats talk for another time. In a whole it comes down to the person you are. They either like you or they dont it wont matter if your a reserve or not!

Your lucky that your colleagues work purely on your personality. Many other reserves are not so, and I wouldnt assume that every Garda or Reserve who finds difficulty with their colleagues is necessarily the person at fault. For some its the confusion over the role of the reserve that contributes to the difficulties they have.

Also just because your training Sgt XYZ in your area, doesnt mean that a training Sgt in another area didnt say ABC. There are public records (including a recently published letter to a newspaper editor) where Reserves refer to not being allowed issue traffic tickets, yet go into some district courts and you will see reserves giving evidence when tickets *they* issued went unpaid. Occasionally you will see Reserve Gardai unaccompanied at major events in some areas, yet other areas reserves wont be more than 3 metres from a regular Garda at all times.

Before I even considered applying for a position as a GR it was abundantly clear that there was a huge difference in the role of reserves on a station by station basis.

ieoinu · 27-03-2012 9:33pm

A reserve Garda does not hold the same rank or authority as a full time Garda, it is nonsensical to think they do. If I'm not mistaken Reserve Gardai are not supposed to wear uniform carry id cards etc when not 'on duty'. The reserves are not the salvation of the country in the face of a crime epidemic, they are a cynical way of masking the fact that the number of fulltime Gardaí on the street so to speak is being drastically cut. The reserve were brought in a a cost saving measure designed to be free policing at weekends, major events and the like not as the last bastion of law and order. Joe Public cannot tell the difference between a full time Garda and a Reserve as they walk up the street but when the fit hits the shan ultimately any investigation etc will fall on the Garda not the reserve. One would expect that a Student Garda has more qualification/rank/authority than as a Reserve Garda as they have received more training, have a greater knowledge of law, and are more committed (ie have chosen it as their full time career not as a hobby passing/interest/fad), than a Reserve has. We're all paying for our Police Force why should we have unqualified, unpaid and an ultimately un-regulatible (to quote one Reserve "What are they going to do? Sack Me?") folly. If you were having a heart attack and went to the hospital, would you be happy with someone who wanted to see what it was like to be a doctor or a qualified doctor treating you?

bluetop · 27-03-2012 9:49pm

ieoinu wrote: »

A reserve Garda does not hold the same rank or authority as a full time Garda, it is nonsensical to think they do. If I'm not mistaken Reserve Gardai are not supposed to wear uniform carry id cards etc when not 'on duty'. The reserves are not the salvation of the country in the face of a crime epidemic, they are a cynical way of masking the fact that the number of fulltime Gardaí on the street so to speak is being drastically cut. The reserve were brought in a a cost saving measure designed to be free policing at weekends, major events and the like not as the last bastion of law and order. Joe Public cannot tell the difference between a full time Garda and a Reserve as they walk up the street but when the fit hits the shan ultimately any investigation etc will fall on the Garda not the reserve. One would expect that a Student Garda has more qualification/rank/authority than as a Reserve Garda as they have received more training, have a greater knowledge of law, and are more committed (ie have chosen it as their full time career not as a hobby passing/interest/fad), than a Reserve has. We're all paying for our Police Force why should we have unqualified, unpaid and an ultimately un-regulatible (to quote one Reserve "What are they going to do? Sack Me?") folly. If you were having a heart attack and went to the hospital, would you be happy with someone who wanted to see what it was like to be a doctor or a qualified doctor treating you?

Do full time garda wear there uniform off duty?? dont think so, as for reserves doing investigation its not their fault they cant do paperwork, that is down to the commissioner to give the powers he has in trust for the reserves on a phased basis but they have decided not to, i suppose that is the fault of the reserve also ?, Student Garda have NO powers whatsoever, Reserve garda are under the same rules and same oath that a full timer is, and yes they can be sacked so to speak, do you think that would look good on your CV....... mmm i was let go by AGS, Many a paramedic have saved lives, there not doctors, same as many a Garda Reserve has saved lives, many go on to become full-time members, nobody has a problem with reserve firemen or reserve ambulance men i,e johns ambulance etc etc but yet do with reserve police officers..reserves are trained fully for the powers and duties they do have.

TylerIE · 27-03-2012 10:36pm

ieoinu wrote: »

A reserve Garda does not hold the same rank or authority as a full time Garda, it is nonsensical to think they do. If I'm not mistaken Reserve Gardai are not supposed to wear uniform carry id cards etc when not 'on duty'.

Last I knew no regular Gardai I knew wore uniform off duty, and as for ID card I suggest you contact the Commissioner for up to date policy re same.

The reserves are not the salvation of the country in the face of a crime epidemic, they are a cynical way of masking the fact that the number of fulltime Gardaí on the street so to speak is being drastically cut.

The reserve was founded when Garda numbers were being dramatically increased as opposed to being cut.

The reserve were brought in a a cost saving measure designed to be free policing at weekends, major events and the like not as the last bastion of law and order

.
And to support the Regular Gardai in policing their communities. Nobody ever suggests they are the last bastion of law and order, but they can provide support in policing some of the mundane day-to-day stuff. Not all policing activities require a Garda with a degree. Indeed many reserves have degrees or relevant life experience which, in combination with their prescribed training and the experiences they get under the supervision of regular members, can leave them adequately prepared for working as a Reserve.

Joe Public cannot tell the difference between a full time Garda and a Reserve as they walk up the street but when the fit hits the shan ultimately any investigation etc will fall on the Garda not the reserve.

Yes of course, and thats the way it is and will be in most cases. Some reserves have investigated minor crimes. Its appropriate that those with the highest level of training and experience (Regular Gardai with the degree or pre degree Gardai with vast experience) would devote their time to the most serious incidents - rather than AGS having to devote man hours to traffic control at events and public order. Indeed the regular Gardai are supported when the "fit hits the shan" by Gardai who specialise in investigations - Detectives, Crime Units, etc.

Oddly enough many reserves bring skills that are useful on the front line. Many have experience with other voluntary groups - e.g. the GAA etc so are used to dealing with young people, some are healthcare professionals who naturally can transfer some of their skills and experience across, others are bus drivers or mechanics who can contribute greatly to road safety education and enforcement, others have extensive IT skills which are also transferable. Indeed some have the simple factor of having "maturity" and "life experience". With AGS being so young, it can be most reassuring for people, particularly older people, to feel they are dealing with someone more mature and who will have the life experience necessary to empathise.

One would expect that a Student Garda has more qualification/rank/authority than as a Reserve Garda as they have received more training, have a greater knowledge of law, and are more committed (ie have chosen it as their full time career not as a hobby passing/interest/fad), than a Reserve has.

The one thing a reserve requires is commitment. Many, if not most, reserves dont put a uniform on until at least 18 months after they first applied. Even then its only during training. Reserves are required in addition to this to train for in excess of 128 hours, involving travelling to and from Templemore on 4+ occasions and up to 14 trips to and from a Divisional Headquarters for Phase 2 training. They also must do a minimum of 26 shifts a year, which will require the reserve to commute to and from a station outside their home Garda district. While regular Gardai may not be compensated adequately for the risks they take, and may have hateful work life balance with having to work nights and late shifts. Contrast this with Reserve Gardai who know the risks and still go ahead even though they do not get paid during training or for volunteering their time.

We're all paying for our Police Force why should we have unqualified, unpaid and an ultimately un-regulatible (to quote one Reserve "What are they going to do? Sack Me?") folly.

Reserves are qualified to a standard that was agreed by the Garda Commissioner and the Minister for Justice, and only operate once they receive this training (as per the Garda Siochana Act).

We are paying for our police force, but as the Garda Inspectorate discovered a few years ago - to create one full time position requires 5.2 Gardai. At a minimum the entire Garda Reserve budget would pay salaries for perhaps 50 Gardai - meaning less than 10 extra Gardai on the geat 24/7. So it would put 10 extra Gardai on duty for a Saturday night - up to 200 Reserves who may be on duty across the country with their unit on a Saturday night.

If you were having a heart attack and went to the hospital, would you be happy with someone who wanted to see what it was like to be a doctor or a qualified doctor treating you?

If I was having a heart attack I would be perfectly happy for a Nurse Practioner, Paramedic or Advanced Paramedic to treat me within the standard ACLS protocols - ie what they are trained to do.

For the follow on care I would naturally want a specialist Consultant - just like in the Garda Scenario a regular Garda or Detective would provide the follow on investigation after an incident.

bluetop · 27-03-2012 10:43pm

Top post Tyler, could not have put it better myself.

Tyron Jara · 28-03-2012 8:47am

Just because a a member of Garda rank cannot discipline a reserve does not mean we are the same rank. If we were the same rank we would not be required to be supervised>>> "A reserve member shall be placed on duty under the supervision of a member of another rank". A reserve member is required by law to obey orders from a higher rank eg Garda. >>>"A reserve member shall obey all lawful orders and shall at all times punctually and promptly perform all duties assigned to him or her". Also a Reserve is not allowed to give any orders>> "A reserve member shall not give or purport to give any order to a member of any other rank.". Now someone explain to me how we are the same rank as a guard?? It worries me reserves think they are and this could be a reason full timers get ticked off with reserves. In fact I would love to hear a full timers opinion here!! Take a look at this http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2006/en/si/0413.html.

My point is if we were the same rank we would not require supervision by a full timer and we would be alot more like special constables in the UK. The way it is now we require supervision and have to take orders off every rank from garda and up. This puts us at the bottom of the food chain.

Student Reserve and Student are technically not ranks by the way but a reserve is considered higher than a student but a student was given more priority and only right. This is the rank structure with students.

* Commissioner
* Deputy Commissioner
* Assistant Commissioner
* Chief Superintendent
* Superintendent
* Inspector
* Sergeant
* Garda
* Reserve Garda
Student
Reserve Student

The ranks are here on the Garda website. Notice how students are not in the rank structure!http://www.garda.ie/Controller.aspx?Page=19

bluetop · 28-03-2012 11:41am

The only reason Reserve garda are not allowed out on their own is because it has not been handed down to them by the Commissioner, nothing to do with anything else, a garda is not there and i stress this yet again to give you orders, no matter what the rank structure shows, they are the same rank, they are accompanying you that is all, its still the Sgt that gives the orders, you feck something up and lets see who will get the red face, wont be the full-timer thats for sure. Also take a look at the rank structure on this link might give you a better idea http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garda_S%C3%ADoch%C3%A1na

Myrddin · 29-03-2012 2:15pm

bluetop wrote: »

The only reason Reserve garda are not allowed out on their own is because it has not been handed down to them by the Commissioner, nothing to do with anything else, a garda is not there and i stress this yet again to give you orders, no matter what the rank structure shows, they are the same rank, they are accompanying you that is all, its still the Sgt that gives the orders, you feck something up and lets see who will get the red face, wont be the full-timer thats for sure. Also take a look at the rank structure on this link might give you a better idea http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garda_S%C3%ADoch%C3%A1na

From your very link though:

With reduced training, these duties and powers must be operated under the supervision of regular members of the Force, and are also limited from those of regular members.

Supervision...Supervisor? Looks to me like they have a say in what you do as a reserve. Though to be honest, I'm not sure why it matters who gives the orders? At the end of the day, it's a huge privilege to assist the full time members, they have hugely more training over the reserves, & if I'm honest, deserve to be in control while out & about.

Any reserve who goes in gung-ho & viewing themselves as an equal to a full time member has the wrong end of the stick. Reserves are there to assist in whatever way is needed, with initiative of course. It's all about learning, you can't learn if you know it all.

Eru · 29-03-2012 6:39pm

bluetop wrote: »

student garda is under the reserves as well in the structure, so does that mean reserves are there superior

Yes because students are civilians and have no Garda powers whatsover.

bluetop wrote: »

full-time members cannot reprimand a reserve, or student garda, the only persons you have to answer to is your Sgt, Sig, Super, Commissioner, in that order, same as full-time garda has to.

As already stated, Sergeants cannot reprimand anyone. They do not possess the authority to discipline a member of Garda rank. They can only caution you informally. Even if you disobey a direct order from your Sergeant it is still the Super that will block you. By your logic and again as I have already stated, that means your Sergeant is not your superior because all he can do is supervise you as we do with reserves.

bluetop wrote: »

Might be the rank structure you also forgot student garda is under the reserves as well in the structure,

Thats the end of the debate, its what the rank structure as stated in the code that determines who is higher or lower and its very very clear.

Am I the only person here who realises that 'senior man' is actually stated in the code as well?

First Aid Ireland · 29-03-2012 7:01pm

Eru wrote: »

As already stated, Sergeants cannot reprimand anyone. They do not possess the authority to discipline a member of Garda rank. They can only caution you informally. Even if you disobey a direct order from your Sergeant it is still the Super that will block you. By your logic and again as I have already stated, that means your Sergeant is not your superior because all he can do is supervise you as we do with reserves.

I don't know anything about the gardai or the reserves, but surely if somebody can informally caution you in work, then they're your superior?

u s e · 29-03-2012 8:22pm

bluetop wrote: »

no matter what the rank structure shows, they are the same rank,

The rank structure on Garda website shows rank structure in descending order with Garda above Reserve Garda,yet you disregard it.
Also,how can a Reserve(volunteer) be the same rank as a full timer in AGS or in any organisation how can volunteer be same rank as a full timer?just doesn't make sense.

Eru · 29-03-2012 9:02pm

First Aid Ireland wrote: »

I don't know anything about the gardai or the reserves, but surely if somebody can informally caution you in work, then they're your superior?

Thats exactly my point.

u s e wrote: »

The rank structure on Garda website shows rank structure in descending order with Garda above Reserve Garda,yet you disregard it.
Also,how can a Reserve(volunteer) be the same rank as a full timer in AGS or in any organisation how can volunteer be same rank as a full timer?just doesn't make sense.

Of course it doesnt. In AGS we have whats known as 'senior man' which is supposed to mean whoever has the most service takes charge of an investigation, scene etc until a superior takes over. Its a lot less formal and relaxed in practice but it still exists. So if reserves hold the same rank then they could be senior men at a scene which is nonsense.

First Aid Ireland · 29-03-2012 9:11pm

Eru wrote: »

Thats exactly my point.

Do you not regard an informal caution as a reprimand?

My thinking would be that if it's laid out in writing that a sergeant can give an informal caution to a garda, then that's a reprimand. That is a statement of superiority in the rankings. Someone has written down that a sargeant can discipline another rank, albeit informally. That's a very clear delineation between the ranks.

If it's not laid out that a normal garda can do the same to a reservist, then there seems no official hierarchy (in terms of who can caution who) so it doesn't look like you're comparing like with like.

For the record, i assume the reservists are below the full timers in the hierarchy. I'm just not sure this idea about informal cautions makes much sense or helps clarify the issue.

bluetop · 29-03-2012 10:11pm

bluetop wrote: »

While reserves are an extra pair of hands they are of the same rank, the difference being the full time member has full powers, while the reserve ( part time) has limited powers that is the only difference, reserve garda have full powers as well "BUT" they are held in trust for them by the Commissioner to give out as he sees fit, so tomorrow the Commissioner could go ok today we will give Reserves this, this, and this, what the full-timer says goes only because he is the senior man, same as another garda who is senior will call the shots over them.

I think if you look back at post 21 i already said what the senior man says goes, for both the Reserve and the full-timer.

So if the Sgt is not your superior when you are on parade and he tells you to do something you dont have to do it ? , i would love to see you or any other full-time member not do what your Sgt says, see where that would get you.

bluetop · 29-03-2012 10:18pm

Eru wrote: »

. Of course it doesnt. In AGS we have whats known as 'senior man' which is supposed to mean whoever has the most service takes charge of an investigation, scene etc until a superior takes over. Its a lot less formal and relaxed in practice but it still exists. So if reserves hold the same rank then they could be senior men at a scene which is nonsense.

So if for argument say the Commissioner in his wisdom was to give full powers to a Reserve member tomorrow, and allowed to patrol on their own would they not be equal then.

Its only because of the powers they are not equal that is all if reserves where given extra powers tomorrow im sure they would do an excellent job of it after some extra cpd.

DMRW · 30-03-2012 9:24am

bluetop wrote: »

So if for argument say the Commissioner in his wisdom was to give full powers to a Reserve member tomorrow, and allowed to patrol on their own would they not be equal then.

Its only because of the powers they are not equal that is all if reserves where given extra powers tomorrow im sure they would do an excellent job of it after some extra cpd.

Powers, powers and more powers, this is what we need. In my opinion, reserves claiming that are way off the reality. Bluetop, I am a proactive reserve few years now, but never boasted about it, never cried that I need more powers or so. With more power, comes greater responsibility. Sure, you will say some reserves are ready to take that, but you don't need the Commissioners signature to get more responsibility.

Take some reports over the counter and try to investigate yourself, take all statements, prepare file and wait for directions. So what if you haven't got powers to prosecute, it can be done on your behalf. Same goes with those who failed to produce after your legal demand at traffic stop. Another example is Sec 4 Criminal Law. You can easily lift someone for theft, do some of paper work and take part in prosecution.

Now there are upsides and downsides to that. Upside is that you will satisfy your demand for power and responsibility, but that is about it.

Downsides are, in order to do the proper garda job (prepare files, maybe conduct interviews, take statements, going to court) you need more than 208 annual hours (or even double that, it's still not enough time). You are not being paid for that and spending a day in court may cost you days wages, and all you can claim back is a bus fare. How can, lets say, injured party contact and find a reserve in relation to the investigation he/she is leading, if he/she comes to work once a week?

Reserve will never be able to do regulars job properly for simple reason, reserves are to assist regulars, not to take initiative in their own hands. Though it happens and it has happend to me on numerous occasions, but 95% of the time its up to the regular to call the shots. It's their primary job after all.

Bottom line is if someone wants more powers, they are in the wrong job, because there will be none in the near future. My advise to unhappy reserves is to try working with another unit or in the worst case scenario fill Form D19 and move on to another station, and to remember, that there are two pair of eyes to see, two pair of ears to listen, and one mouth to keep it shut, then you will do well in any job.

titanium_x · 30-03-2012 9:30am

It's crazy to say that reserves hold the same rank as a Gardai.

1. All rank structures show reserves as below Garda.
2. Reserves are not meant to be Gardai. They are there to help/assist full time members.

Q: Does sec39 of the Gardai Siochan Act 2005 allow for a reserve to be answerable to a higher rank i.e. Garda.

39.— (1) A member of the Garda Síochána shall, when directed to do so by a member of a higher rank, account for any act done or omission made by the member while on duty.

DMRW · 30-03-2012 9:37am

I just cannot understand whats the fecking difference? Rank below, rank above, same rank. Does it affect your pay? Does it affect your career prospects? Will it help you to get a promotion?

titanium_x · 30-03-2012 11:03am

DMRW wrote: »

I just cannot understand whats the fecking difference? Rank below, rank above, same rank. Does it affect your pay? Does it affect your career prospects? Will it help you to get a promotion?

Because it's important to know your place.
Your rank defines your level of responsibility, what powers you have, influence etc.
Yes rank does effect pay. Yes rank does affect career prospects. Higher ranks earn more money. Being of higher ranks improves careers prospects better viability and you get the credit for your subordinates work also!, along with having more transferable skills to move to say private sector employment etc....

Every job has a rank structure, just different titles so store manage, i.e Sgt, or regional manager might equate to say Super etc

Rank strucutre is important because specific orders have to flow through a rank of leadership. For example, it is not up to the front line to decide where the entire country's strategy is going to be. Where to focus resources etc. That is the desicion of a leader, who passes orders down.

But we can talk semantics all day. I think (just my own opinion) that Reserves should know there place. Then over time they will get more responsibility within there unit. But if you expect to go in as an equal with only a couple of hours trains albeit focused on a narrower range of topics, then you're going to be disappointed.

Some Reserves focus on rank as they are hoping for a kind of back door into full time employment. That's not going to happen I think because current SI regulations defining entry requirements don't allow for it, and Reserves is such a new concept that I'd say no one of a high rank has ever worked with a reserve, i.e. beat work or responding to a call etc and hence are a bit detached from the effort that lots of reserves do put in, and hence no credit will be given for it.

DMRW · 30-03-2012 11:53am

titanium_x wrote: »

Because it's important to know your place.

I'll tell you what I've learnt from my own experience, no one will be able to tell you your place as a reserve within the guards.

Every station and every unit is being managed differently. Some skippers and cigs will be in operational uniform out and about going dirty job themselves, and in contrast, some skippers won't be seen at all and ordinary members would be managing a unit. Everyone is busy doing their job, or everyone is busy doing absolutely feck all. It happens in evey job and at the end of the day being a guard is simply a job in public service.

Again, nobody will tell you where is your place, it is up to you and you only to figure it out. Mostly its due to the poor management, as GR project was extremely ambitious in the beginning (idea of gradually giving more powers to the certain proactive reserves, for eg. driving official vehicles is kinda hilarious at this climate), but now it is going nowhere, due to the lack of coordination and other political factors.

Nobody told where is my place when I started. Like a complete eejit I was standing in the station with full gear for 8 hours, because nobody told me what to do. Eventually I started asking questions, which involved procedures, legal background (I've spend lots of time studying Acts and Sections on my own time), local knowledge etc. and now I know a lot. "A lot" means that became competent and I would be able to do a full timer job easy. It might sound like an overstatement, but I know what I am capable of. Nevertheless, when it comes to serious issues out and about or in the house I tend to leave it to the regulars and assist them should there is need for that.

If someone wants to know their place, remember that in the real life not everything is done by the book, use your own head, intuition, and discretion solving problems and navigating yourself in this large grey area. After all, if you are failing to cope with a simple task of being reserve, what are the chances that you will be a good guard?

titanium_x · 30-03-2012 12:08pm

@DMRW I agree with you completely.

When I say know your place I mean accept that you know less and be willing to ask for advice etc just like you recommend, or or give them assistants when required.

I don't mean sit in the corner.

TylerIE · 30-03-2012 2:18pm

titanium_x wrote: »

Some Reserves focus on rank as they are hoping for a kind of back door into full time employment. That's not going to happen I think because current SI regulations defining entry requirements don't allow for it, and Reserves is such a new concept that I'd say no one of a high rank has ever worked with a reserve, i.e. beat work or responding to a call etc and hence are a bit detached from the effort that lots of reserves do put in, and hence no credit will be given for it.

With respect the regulations specifically allow that Reserves may be given special recognition with regard to application for the regular.

http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/JELR/SI509of2006.pdf/Files/SI509of2006.pdf

garda reserve. One year since I left.

Comments