Genocide in South Africa

gerryandliza

A few days ago Genocide watch, which is an internationally recognised organisation moved south africa from stay 5 to stage 6 on the genocide scale. :eek: www.genocidewatch.org . How sad, beautiful country that has gone the same road as zimbabwe:(

Jelle1880

I've heard that from someone who used to live there.
The shocking part is that this is not mentioned in the press here, despite the fact that there is definitely an issue with one part of the population attacking another one, based on racist ideas.

Compare to the outcry when the Boers controlled the country.

Richard Hillman

No mainstream politicians or media outlets will take public notice of it in fear of being called a racist. It wont be until its too late until they finally publically condemn whats going on in South Africa :rolleyes:

tallus

I spoke to a south african friend about the ongoing situation there and he claimed that the general consensus from the people he is still in contact with in South Africa was that it was all going to kick off when Nelson Mandella dies. Pretty sad to hear.

Tea drinker

Some awful stories for past few years about the old white people on farms getting robbed. Of course they are often tortured horribly as well, not simple robberies.

gerryandliza

tallus wrote: »

I spoke to a south african friend about the ongoing situation there and he claimed that the general consensus from the people he is still in contact with in South Africa was that it was all going to kick off when Nelson Mandella dies. Pretty sad to hear.

The problem has already kicked off in SA. Google farm attacks in south africa and see for yourself. It is really bad there! Malema who is part of the ruling party the ANC youth league is callin for nationalisation of mines bank land etc! He sings about killing whites and nothing much is really done to stop him! :eek: The average man on the street sleeps with one eye open in SA, what a pity that sa has gone downhill so fast.

Nodin

Jelle1880 wrote: »

I've heard that from someone who used to live there.
The shocking part is that this is not mentioned in the press here, despite the fact that there is definitely an issue with one part of the population attacking another one, based on racist ideas.

Compare to the outcry when the Boers controlled the country.

Thats far from proven. Theres a monumental murder and crime rate in the country generally.

gerryandliza

Tea drinker wrote: »

Some awful stories for past few years about the old white people on farms getting robbed. Of course they are often tortured horribly as well, not simple robberies.

Alot of times with these farm attacks nothing is even stolen, it seems to be all about torturing and humiliating before being murdered in the most horrendous ways.

gerryandliza

Richard Hillman wrote: »

No mainstream politicians or media outlets will take public notice of it in fear of being called a racist. It wont be until its too late until they finally publically condemn whats going on in South Africa :rolleyes:

Its basically what happened with so many of the other genocides - DENIAL

Nodin

gerryandliza wrote: »

Alot of times with these farm attacks nothing is even stolen, it seems to be all about torturing and humiliating before being murdered in the most horrendous ways.

And you've some report from an NGO or the like to back that up...?

gerryandliza

Nodin wrote: »

And you've some report from an NGO or the like to back that up...?

http://youtu.be/3S71PbichSw
http://youtu.be/tgSfhsFtIM0

http://www.genocidewatch.org/

http://youtu.be/blDoIVf6Y1M

www.africancrisis.co.za

AlekSmart

gerryandliza wrote: »

The problem has already kicked off in SA. Google farm attacks in south africa and see for yourself. It is really bad there! Malema who is part of the ruling party the ANC youth league is callin for nationalisation of mines bank land etc! He sings about killing whites and nothing much is really done to stop him! :eek: The average man on the street sleeps with one eye open in SA, what a pity that sa has gone downhill so fast.

Gerryandliza and others,it's interesting to see/hear a slightly different take on the SA situation.

For so long now any discussion of South Africa's descent into chaos has to be undertaken with a clearly stated proviso of admitting the White Man's burden of injustice and repression etc.

Indeed,it remains so,something which most of the politically astute black activist leadership are highly proficient at portraying.

It's open for debate as to whether there is actually much difference at all between the Oppresive white South African regimes and the Far Sighted Open Minded Black governments....from what I can see it's a matter of semantics.

However,you are most likely already aware that the opinions you appear to be developing will be largely pooh-poo'd in favour of a more quixotic notion that what we are seeing is only a rebalancing after centuries of repression,slavery and cruelty etc so therefore it's all somehow or other OK.

Tea_Bag

You really don't want to be in the country when Mandela dies.

Malema is going to be the leader when Apartheid gets completely flipped on it's head. He's seriously dangerous and the ANC will back him up when the time comes. other songs he likes to sing at his speeches translate to "1 farmer, 1 bullet "

anymore

And jsut where is Africs's most famous ' Human Rughts' campaigner Archbishop Tutu ? Winner of Tutu received the Nobel Peace Prize in 1984, the Albert Schweitzer Prize for Humanitarianism in 1986, the Pacem in Terris Award in 1987, the Sydney Peace Prize (1999) the Gandhi Peace Prize in 2005,[1] and the Presidential Medal of Freedom in 2009.

This can hardly be happening in his own backyard, can it ? When he was on his retirement tour last year, should he not have been warning the world of this catastrophic state of affairs ?

gerryandliza

anymore wrote: »

And jsut where is Africs's most famous ' Human Rughts' campaigner Archbishop Tutu ? Winner of Tutu received the Nobel Peace Prize in 1984, the Albert Schweitzer Prize for Humanitarianism in 1986, the Pacem in Terris Award in 1987, the Sydney Peace Prize (1999) the Gandhi Peace Prize in 2005,[1] and the Presidential Medal of Freedom in 2009.

This can hardly be happening in his own backyard, can it ? When he was on his retirement tour last year, should he not have been warning the world of this catastrophic state of affairs ?

I always had a lot of respect for Tutu until i read this article below

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/Politics/Tutus-white-tax-is-racist-20110813

After nearly 20 years of so called democracy, i think it is time to stop blaming apartheid for the problems that sa faces now

jmayo

tallus wrote: »

I spoke to a south african friend about the ongoing situation there and he claimed that the general consensus from the people he is still in contact with in South Africa was that it was all going to kick off when Nelson Mandella dies. Pretty sad to hear.

I have been hearing this for the last 10 plus years from some white South Africans.
Funny thing is I have also been hearing it from some non white South Africans of late.
malema is a very dangerous guy and is another would be mugabe albeit a pretty uneducated moronic one as can be seen from his school record and his moronic outbursts like slagging off the chinese.

Once the steading influence of Mandela goes the country will discend into chaos with the likes of malema at the forefront.
If the ANC leadership were serious about building an all inclusive country they would kick malema out rather than giving him slaps on the wrist and having that eejit zuma claim that he could be a future leader.

The scary thing is that he has a following among disaffected youths who don;t see any benefits even though the country is under black rule.
Sooner or later a scapegoat will have to be found to appease these and the whites are going to be it.
At the same time the likes of malema will grow rich on the proceeds.

Nodin wrote: »

And you've some report from an NGO or the like to back that up...?

Do you doubt the rise of racial tensions and attacks on whites in South africa and the dangerous rise of people like malema who now openly expresses desire to take over white property and makes no bones about singing such songs as "kill the boer" ?

gerryandliza

Tea_Bag wrote: »

You really don't want to be in the country when Mandela dies.

Malema is going to be the leader when Apartheid gets completely flipped on it's head. He's seriously dangerous and the ANC will back him up when the time comes. other songs he likes to sing at his speeches translate to "1 farmer, 1 bullet "

Malema is a very dangerous puppet of the ANC. Unfortunatley he has many followers who support his call of nationalisation of mines, bank, land etc. His kill the boer kill the farmer song has been blamed for many murders in SA and even though a court ruled that the song could not be sung anymore he still does this and gets away with it!

gerryandliza

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/Politics/US-compared-ANC-to-Nats-WikiLeaks-20110825

FTA69

I remember meeting an ANC Youth League representative at a youth congress once when I was around 16. He was emphatically supportive of Mugabe and countered any criticism of his regime with a charge of "British propaganda". Asked why tens of thousands of Zimbabweans are pouring then into South Africa to escape the madness he responded that these were former lackeys of the establishment etc etc etc. I didn't bother pressing the issue.

To me it seems that one elite has simply replaced another, and as usual the ordinary people get screwed at every turn. Like in Ireland, it seems the former revolutionaries have become the epitome of gombeenism and like in Ireland they seem to be using nationalist rhetoric to distract from it.

gerryandliza

FTA69 wrote: »

I remember meeting an ANC Youth League representative at a youth congress once when I was around 16. He was emphatically supportive of Mugabe and countered any criticism of his regime with a charge of "British propaganda". Asked why tens of thousands of Zimbabweans are pouring then into South Africa to escape the madness he responded that these were former lackeys of the establishment etc etc etc. I didn't bother pressing the issue.

To me it seems that one elite has simply replaced another, and as usual the ordinary people get screwed at every turn. Like in Ireland, it seems the former revolutionaries have become the epitome of gombeenism and like in Ireland they seem to be using nationalist rhetoric to distract from it.

The ANC openly support mugabe and are now trying to do the same style land grabs in south africa! Many zimbabweans are now being murdered off in south africa in xenophobic attacks and others are running back to Zimbabwe or being deported back. It really is a case of from the frying pan into the fire! Ordinary citizens of SA, black and white, have had enough. The politicians are all corrupt and are turning a blind eye on what is going on in their country. It really is a case of the rich will get richer and the poor will get poorer:(

Nodin

gerryandliza wrote:

http://youtu.be/3S71PbichSw
.............

There was nothing there that backed up

Alot of times with these farm attacks nothing is even stolen, it seems to be all about torturing and humiliating before being murdered in the most horrendous ways.

In fact that News programme "Farm Murders in South Africa" (part II) has a number of officials and independent experts stating that the motivation is criminal and the type of violence not unique to attacks on Farmers. The sole dissenter seems to be Mr Stanton of Genocide Watch.

While there are legitamate concerns as regards the likes of Malema, hysterical claims don't help your case at all, at all.

jmayo wrote: »

Do you doubt the rise of racial tensions and attacks on whites in South africa and the dangerous rise of people like malema who now openly expresses desire to take over white property and makes no bones about singing such songs as "kill the boer" ?

Why are you asking?

g5fd6ow0hseima

Nodin wrote: »

There was nothing there that backed up


In fact that News programme "Farm Murders in South Africa" (part II) has a number of officials and independent experts stating that the motivation is criminal and the type of violence not unique to attacks on Farmers. The sole dissenter seems to be Mr Stanton of Genocide Watch.

While there are legitamate concerns as regards the likes of Malema, hysterical claims don't help your case at all, at all.



Why are you asking?

The fact that over 3,200 white farmers have been killed since 1994 is something you cant ignore. That's more than the figure killed during the thirty years of the troubles here. But I guess it's all motivated by poverty eh?

Nodin

Mohammed Future Suburbia wrote: »

The fact that over 3,200 white farmers have been killed since 1994 is something you cant ignore. That's more than the figure killed during the thirty years of the troubles here. But I guess it's all motivated by poverty eh?

The fact that those 3,200 form part of a total of 300,000 since that same year shouldn't be left out either.
http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/Politics/FF-Murder-rate-killed-SA-dream-20100427

gerryandliza

Mohammed Future Suburbia wrote: »

The fact that over 3,200 white farmers have been killed since 1994 is something you cant ignore. That's more than the figure killed during the thirty years of the troubles here. But I guess it's all motivated by poverty eh?

I agree, poverty, apartheid etc cannot be used as an excuse for this. The same happened in Rwanda those years, people didnt want to hear or know about the genocide and only woke up after it was too late.

Nodin

gerryandliza wrote: »

I agree, poverty, apartheid etc cannot be used as an excuse for this. ............

Nobody was using it as an excuse, it was pointed out as that crime, related to poverty presumably, was the primary motivation.

gerryandliza

Another interesting site i found

http://www.farmitracker.com/

easychair

gerryandliza wrote: »

A few days ago Genocide watch, which is an internationally recognised organisation moved south africa from stay 5 to stage 6 on the genocide scale. :eek: www.genocidewatch.org . How sad, beautiful country that has gone the same road as zimbabwe:(

Which road is that? I've been to both SA and ZIM in the last year, and don't regognise any similarities. Can you explain what you mean that SA has gone down the same road as zim?

g5fd6ow0hseima

Nodin wrote: »

The fact that those 3,200 form part of a total of 300,000 since that same year shouldn't be left out either.
http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/Politics/FF-Murder-rate-killed-SA-dream-20100427

Yes but the murder rates and overall crime rates in South Africa's cities are extremely high in comparison to rural areas - as is the case in most countries. However, the murdered farmers were almost entirely located in rural areas, well away from the big cities which have been plagued with drug violence and what not.

Brian?

What's happening now is completely different to what happened under the Apartheid regime in SA.

What's happening now is generaly lawlessness leading to a very high crime rate.

Under Apartheid a white minority imposed an unfair system upon a black minority, striping them of their basic human rights. To compare what's happening no to Zimbabwe is also misleading, there it was a state reappropriation of land from white farmers lead by a Tyrant. For all it's imperfections the South Africa of today is a democratic state.

I have worked with many white South Africans, what they say about the current state of SA needs to be taken with a pinch of salt. If you believe some of them it's anarachy where a white man is more than likely going to be linched in the street. I have also worked with some black South Africans, can you guess what they say about the SA of today versus the Apartheid days?

g5fd6ow0hseima

easychair wrote: »

Which road is that? I've been to both SA and ZIM in the last year, and don't regognise any similarities. Can you explain what you mean that SA has gone down the same road as zim?

Im guessing he means paranoid leadership, autocratic tendencies, africanism, support of authoritarian dictators, racism, blaming its entire woes on western imperialism, plummeting life expectancies, incomprenehsible crime levels, corruption and croneyism on an endemic level....

FTA69

While we're on the subject of racial tension in South Africa, there has been one example of this which has gone largely unreported in my opinion and that is the case of immigrants from other African countries. In some of South Africa's many shanty towns immigrants from Zimbabwe and Mozambique etc have often come under sustained attack with scores of them being murdered or driven from their homes by racist mobs. In a context where South Africa is stricken with poverty, AIDS, crime and unemployment it's sad to see other misfortunate people being made a scapegoat for venting anger.

g5fd6ow0hseima

briankeating wrote: »

For all it's imperfections the South Africa of today is a democratic state.

with Black Economic Empowerment, you can hardly call it a democratic state.

Brian?

Mohammed Future Suburbia wrote: »

with Black Economic Empowerment, you can hardly call it a democratic state.

Yes I can. They have free and fair elections. That is the basis of a democracy. If the majority of people vote for a Goverment with implements a particular policy, this is therefore also democratic.

gerryandliza

easychair wrote: »

Which road is that? I've been to both SA and ZIM in the last year, and don't regognise any similarities. Can you explain what you mean that SA has gone down the same road as zim?

Where do I start? ANC's open support for Mugabe's land grabs. Malema has openingly praised Mugabe and the ZANU PF and said they must follow the same route. The ever increasing attacks on farmers and foreigners.

Only yesterday the ANC government have drafted new land reform bill which includes 'redistribution of land' without compensation and also this bill will seize foreign owned properties unless those properties are 'shared' with south african citizens.

This means that anyone with a nice holiday home in sa will likely loose it unless they 'share' it.

It might be true to say that SA is not at the same stage of land grabs and nationalisation as Zim but the government are openly following Mugabes methods.

gerryandliza

briankeating wrote: »

Yes I can. They have free and fair elections. That is the basis of a democracy. If the majority of people vote for a Goverment with implements a particular policy, this is therefore also democratic.

The elections were so free and fair that when voting stations ran out of ballot papers, IEC officials ran across the road to get more from a private house!

easychair

Mohammed Future Suburbia wrote: »

Im guessing he means paranoid leadership, autocratic tendencies, africanism, support of authoritarian dictators, racism, blaming its entire woes on western imperialism, plummeting life expectancies, incomprenehsible crime levels, corruption and croneyism on an endemic level....

are you his spokesman?

I've no idea what "africanism" means exactly, and woujld have thought many leaders develop autocratic tendencies. I don't see the same sort of racism in SA as I have seen in ZIM. Life expectancy in ZIM has plummeted dramatically for many reasons, and the same has not happened in SA. Crime levels in SA are high in places like Jozi, but can't be compared to the governtmemt supported lawlessness of ZIM, where the whole country has been brutalised and terrorised by lawless mobs which to army and police do nothing to prevent due top government diktat. Its true that SA is more corrupt that it has been at a government level, but again not on the scale of Mugabe in ZIM, whose personal corruption has brought a country which was once one of the richest in Africa to become one of the poorest,

That has not happened yet in SA. SA is still a country with a free press, democratic elections (of sorts) and a thriving economy. Whatever the future holds for SA, it most certainly has not gone down the same road as ZIM.

gerryandliza

FTA69 wrote: »

While we're on the subject of racial tension in South Africa, there has been one example of this which has gone largely unreported in my opinion and that is the case of immigrants from other African countries. In some of South Africa's many shanty towns immigrants from Zimbabwe and Mozambique etc have often come under sustained attack with scores of them being murdered or driven from their homes by racist mobs. In a context where South Africa is stricken with poverty, AIDS, crime and unemployment it's sad to see other misfortunate people being made a scapegoat for venting anger.

Xenophobic attacks in SA are a reality. They blame foreigners for 'stealing' their jobs etc. Below is a link from the New York Times, the video is shocking to say the least. This is how foreigners are dealt with:eek:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/05/magazine/watching-the-murder-of-an-innocent-man.html?ref=southafrica

g5fd6ow0hseima

briankeating wrote: »

Yes I can. They have free and fair elections. That is the basis of a democracy. If the majority of people vote for a Goverment with implements a particular policy, this is therefore also democratic.

What you're saying is that apartheid would have been democratic if it had the backing of the majority. Electorally, yes, it reflected the wishes of the people, but in reality it wasn't democratic as equality and freedom were trampled on, just as the aspirations of many white south africans are trampled upon in today's SA due to BEE.

Also, it was hardly democratic of Mbeki to do everything within his power to force the Inthaka Freedom Party into merging with the ANC, and also his obsession with floor-crossing in the SA parliament over the course of the last decade - bribing many opposition politicians into joining the ANC. He was so hell bent he even managed to capture the New National Party, who's predecessors were the chief proponents of Apartheid - ideology gone out the window there - anything for entrenchment of power.

Maybe the ANC would have become another Zanu-PF if a meaningful opposition had existed in SA, but we'll never know. Given the ANC's unequivocal support of Zanu-PF - to the point that they were convinced that Zimbabwe was holding free and fair elections in 2005, there are grounds to believe this scenario.

gerryandliza

easychair wrote: »

are you his spokesman?
That has not happened yet in SA. SA is still a country with a free press, democratic elections (of sorts) and a thriving economy. Whatever the future holds for SA, it most certainly has not gone down the same road as ZIM.

The media is not free. The economy is not thriving there is huge civil unrest at service delivery. SA is going through one of the most violent 'strike seasons' at the moment with many sectors engaging in violent demonstrations

http://youtu.be/ryX6XqXNubA

Would you like to be walking down a street anywhere in SA with this going on? These are council workers who are in full time employment and by south african standards reasonably well off.

easychair

gerryandliza wrote: »

It might be true to say that SA is not at the same stage of land grabs and nationalisation as Zim but the government are openly following Mugabes methods.

I'm afraid you and I must have visited differnt South Africa's and Zimbabwes.

From memory Mugabe's methods were to send in gangs of what he called war veterans to terrorise and brutalise white farmers, to burn them out of their houses, kill injure and maim them, their wives and children, and steal their property, crops, livestock and to make sure the police and army would back up these "War`veterans" and brutalise the farmers some more.

I don't recognise that in South Africa where the rule of law still prevails.

Land redistribution has been an issue for many countries (even Ireland) where governemnts have stolen land from its legitimate owners.

To equate what the SA government has done with Mugabe's brutalisation and murder or many people is ridiculous.

endabob1

gerryandliza wrote: »

The problem has already kicked off in SA. Google farm attacks in south africa and see for yourself. It is really bad there! Malema who is part of the ruling party the ANC youth league is callin for nationalisation of mines bank land etc! He sings about killing whites and nothing much is really done to stop him! :eek: The average man on the street sleeps with one eye open in SA, what a pity that sa has gone downhill so fast.

Tea_Bag wrote: »

You really don't want to be in the country when Mandela dies.

Malema is going to be the leader when Apartheid gets completely flipped on it's head. He's seriously dangerous and the ANC will back him up when the time comes. other songs he likes to sing at his speeches translate to "1 farmer, 1 bullet "

anymore wrote: »

And jsut where is Africs's most famous ' Human Rughts' campaigner Archbishop Tutu ? Winner of Tutu received the Nobel Peace Prize in 1984, the Albert Schweitzer Prize for Humanitarianism in 1986, the Pacem in Terris Award in 1987, the Sydney Peace Prize (1999) the Gandhi Peace Prize in 2005,[1] and the Presidential Medal of Freedom in 2009.

This can hardly be happening in his own backyard, can it ? When he was on his retirement tour last year, should he not have been warning the world of this catastrophic state of affairs ?

Oh Dear;

Lets start with Malema; He is a piece of work no doubt but those calling him a member of the ruling party & suggesting him as the next president are off the mark, in real terms he's an irrelevance. He has a groundswell of support amongst the poorest and most uneducated because the ruling party have not done enough, to advance their cause, the same could have been said for his predecessor Fikile Mbalula and more so Winnie Mandela.
When election time rolls around, the ANC get in with a large majority, and Malema will be a bit-part player like his predecessor is, he will have to toe the party line or be ostracised, and life outside the ANC means no life for the likes of him.

To suggest that nothing is being done about his outbursts is also not true, the ANC have censored him in the past (in relation to the "kill the Boer" song, which was at a particularly sensitive time here with the death of Eugene Terblanche)
http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/Politics/ANCYL-confirms-charges-against-leaders-20110824
and the Hawks (SA special police force) are investigating his "business activities
http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/Malema-Hawks-sifting-through-electronic-data-20110820

There is a lot of rubbish that comes out of SA from all sides but the reality is 95% of violent crime happens in the townships because that's where the poorest people live, look at the riots in London if you want evidence that it's the same the world over. The farm crimes are a lot rarer than is being perceived, not denigrating it but in a country where 46 people are murdered daily, the numbers of farm killings are low compared to those killed in township violence.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=74016698

Now to Bishop Tutu - He has been a consistent voice of reason amid the clatter of nonsense in South Africa in the last decade, He has been critical of SA's stance on Zim & Mugabe
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/zimbabwe/3932806/Archbishop-Desmond-Tutu-criticises-South-Africa-for-failing-to-stand-up-to-Robert-Mugabe.html
He has been critical of the government when he has felt it was appropriate
http://www.timeslive.co.za/Politics/article958285.ece/Tutu-criticises-Zuma-and-government

His so-called criticism of White South Africans is in fact correct, almost all my friends here are white and almost all of them have university educations, because they're parents prospered during apartheid, does this make them bad people? Not at all, it's a fact of life here, that's how things were and still are, change is slow and people living in the poorest townships have had 2 decades of being told things will get better, it's hard not to sympathise with their plight; That said the black on black xenophobia we have seen in the last few years here shows a different side of things.

I've lived here for 4 years, I've travelled a lot in the world and in SA, I know a bloke who was killed on his farm in Zim, I know someone shot on the street here in Cape Town for his Cell Phone, I'm not immune to it but I can contextualise it. I have lived in big cities and been the victim of petty crtime, my mother has been burgled in small town rural Ireland, maybe I've been lucky in SA but I've had no bad experiences here, I know there is crime, I also know that 95% of it happens in areas I would never be. Maybe that makes me a selfish racist, who knows but I like living here and I'm intelligent enough to see through the bullsh!t to get the real story.

easychair

gerryandliza wrote: »

The media is not free. The economy is not thriving there is huge civil unrest at service delivery. SA is going through one of the most violent 'strike seasons' at the moment with many sectors engaging in violent demonstrations

http://youtu.be/ryX6XqXNubA

Would you like to be walking down a street anywhere in SA with this going on? These are council workers who are in full time employment and by south african standards reasonably well off.

I don't understand why you claim "civil unrest at service delivery" means that SA has gone down the same road as ZIM. To say the SA media is not free is simply untrue, and if you claim that the SA media is not free in the same way as the ZIM media, the you simply are living in a twilight world.

What me walking down the street in the middle of a riot has to do with your claim that SA has gone down the same road as ZIM seems unclear.

AlekSmart

One of the enduring memories of Spitting Image for me is the "I've never met a nice South African" song and it's apparent that there's at least a hint of this still about the place.

That said,one of the major differences between SA and ZIm IS the malevolent presence of Uncle Bob himself.

As other posters point out SA is still just about managing to cling to what we see as Democracy whilst ZIM rolls along with little more than Mugabbery.

Mugabe's astute management of his PR has placed him in the lead role of the Black Man's defender against the White Oppressors and Uncle Bob continues to play that for all it's worth,whilst pillaging his country and its people in a manner which would make Gadaffi blush !!

All things considered I'd suggest that SA's biggest threat comes from Uncle Bob himself, rather than from any suggested internal threat.?

Nodin

Mohammed Future Suburbia wrote: »

with Black Economic Empowerment, you can hardly call it a democratic state.

And would you apply the same thought to America with its 'Affirmative action' policy?

irishh_bob

briankeating wrote: »

What's happening now is completely different to what happened under the Apartheid regime in SA.

What's happening now is generaly lawlessness leading to a very high crime rate.

Under Apartheid a white minority imposed an unfair system upon a black minority, striping them of their basic human rights. To compare what's happening no to Zimbabwe is also misleading, there it was a state reappropriation of land from white farmers lead by a Tyrant. For all it's imperfections the South Africa of today is a democratic state.

I have worked with many white South Africans, what they say about the current state of SA needs to be taken with a pinch of salt. If you believe some of them it's anarachy where a white man is more than likely going to be linched in the street. I have also worked with some black South Africans, can you guess what they say about the SA of today versus the Apartheid days?

good post

afrikanners have a lot in common with ulster unionists , they had the upper hand for so long , they hate having to be on equal terms with thier black fellow citizens , going from a situation where your taught to believe that blacks are inherently inferior to having to perhaps work for a black is as difficult for a protestant afrikanner as it is for a protestant unionist having to get a job where a catholic nationalist is in charge , both peoples have an inbuilt arrogance and superiority complex which makes coming to terms with equality a daunting task

walshb

If this was whites attacking blacks it would be racism and hate. There is no difference here. The attacks are both criminal and racist. Anyone denying that hasn't a clue. And, in a way, it's difficult to blame them. As pointed out, the whites who were in control were racist and oppressed the black people for so long. Similar to the racist Orangemen who oppressed Irish people in the North for so so long.

jmayo

briankeating wrote: »

...
To compare what's happening no to Zimbabwe is also misleading, there it was a state reappropriation of land from white farmers lead by a Tyrant.

You almost make it sound ok with your reappropriation, but it is not reappropriation it is theft for the betterment of a few, where the land is not given to the black workers on the farm who actually can farm but it is given to high ranking members and supporters of the ruling party.

Nodin wrote: »

While there are legitamate concerns as regards the likes of Malema, hysterical claims don't help your case at all, at all.

Legitimate concerns, give us a break.
It is the scarest sh** possible scenario for white South Africans, where the leader of the youth wing of the ruling party, a guy even touted as future leader of the country is bascially espousing the forced removal of white and foreign owners of property and businesses.
Even worse the guy is making light of the shooting of white South Africans.

Nodin wrote: »

Why are you asking?

You apepar to think everything is rosey in the garden. :rolleyes:

easychair wrote: »

...
That has not happened yet in SA. SA is still a country with a free press, democratic elections (of sorts) and a thriving economy. Whatever the future holds for SA, it most certainly has not gone down the same road as ZIM.

You know it is a long road.
mugabe didn't start immediately removing white farmers in the early 80s when he took over.
But over time he and his party did start terrorising the minorities within their country, both in order to appease their own disgruntled supporters whom they have never brought the promised benefits and in order to make themsevles even richer.

I know I am going to be accused of all sorts with this statement, but I do think black African states are incapable of managing their own affairs.
How many states are truly functioning multiparty democracies where the states natural resources are being used for the betterment of all the citizens.
Apart from South Africa, Botswana is one of the only ones that comes to mind.
And yes I do know that Western interference (both states and multinationals) over the decades has not helped at all as resources are exploited and war games are fought, but even when countries do have a chance they appear to firstly degenerate into a corruption riddled single party state, to be followed by a despot led autocracy which eventually leads to civil wars and ethnic clensing.

endabob1

The biggest difference between Zim & SA is that there was a revolution in Zim , a proper war for control and power, where the minority rule fought with guns and support from the west to retain control. In SA it was done democratically and that democracy has continued, 4 presidents in 16 years, as opposed to the Tinpot dictatorship over the border.

caseyann

I think they should all move out of there and back to their ancestral homes offered housing by their ancestral homes.And leave those countries to their own devices. Compensated by The government of Africa.

walshb

And, no amount of links, articles, sources or quotes will prove whether or not a black person attacking a white person, or vice versa, is racially motivated. Only the attacker him or her self can know this. It's in their minds and in their hearts. And, unless they come out and declare it then
how can we truly know. Some things just need reading between the lines.

gerryandliza

walshb wrote: »

And, no amount of links, articles, sources or quotes will prove whether or not a black person attacking a white person, or vice versa, is racially motivated. Only the attacker him or her self can know this. It's in their minds and in their hearts. And, unless they come out and declare it then
how can we truly know. Some things just need reading between the lines.

With the greatest amount of respect, wake up and smell the coffee