Leinster Schools Cups 2011-2012

Quint2010

rugbyman2015 wrote: »

Castleknock have been nothing to shout home about this year. Heavy quarter final loss to Roscrea in the league and a number of other poor performances would see Michael's overwhelming favourites for this one.

The Castleknock side are very small and are nothing close to the JCT from last year.

I've heard some great stuff about Michael's. Wonder will they break the junior cup hoodoo finally this year?

Well it seems amazing to me that a schools can suddenly produce six above average junior teams on the trot. What are they feeding them down there?

rugbyman2015

final score 28-10 to Michael's.

They ran away with it in the second half. Four tries for Michael's to Castleknock's one.

denurseeee

Lets be honest about cummiskey,he's michaels thru and thru which is fair enough,but the article he wrote on the cwc belvo match was completely over the top,belvo were awful but its like he wants cwc to belief there hype and that they might slip up because of this!I see thru u cunning plan Gavin! ps lets be honest it will be a michaels kilkenny semi final!

Bearcat

denurseeee wrote: »

Lets be honest about cummiskey,he's michaels thru and thru which is fair enough,but the article he wrote on the cwc belvo match was completely over the top,belvo were awful but its like he wants cwc to belief there hype and that they might slip up because of this!I see thru u cunning plan Gavin! ps lets be honest it will be a michaels kilkenny semi final!

I thought the write ups too were giving cwc a false,sense of belief......they are in for a shocker if faced with nure.....a titanic match awaits

Kannon

denurseeee wrote: »

Lets be honest about cummiskey,he's michaels thru and thru which is fair enough,but the article he wrote on the cwc belvo match was completely over the top,belvo were awful but its like he wants cwc to belief there hype and that they might slip up because of this!I see thru u cunning plan Gavin! ps lets be honest it will be a michaels kilkenny semi final!

Cummiskey went to Rock

LFC5Times

Kannon wrote: »

Cummiskey went to Rock

That may explain his arrogance :cool:

djhfygkhil

personaly i think that CUS have an excellent chance this year in the senior cup as they have an excellent team and a dangerous back 3 that can strike at any given moment they will be going to the finals and winning it come on CUS!

El_Phil

Firstly - Full disclosure. I am an alumnus of Cistercian College Roscrea.
Regardless of your opinion of the rights or wrongs of the Roscrea v. Michael's game it is fair to say that very little seperated the teams over both games.
My question is why is there such a vastly disproportionate representation from these schools at representative level. I could do with some back-up on this but I understand that Roscrea have 2 players - I Leinster and 1 Connacht and that Michaels have close to ten involved in the Leinster schools set-up.
While acknowledging that many teams are more than the sum of their parts it seems to me that there's an inexplicable bias against Leinster schools outside of Dublin (with the possible exception of Clongowes). Why is this? Is the Michael's coach involved with Leinster Schools? Preferential selection for certain schools will only weaken the provintial teams in the long run.

WTF007

El_Phil wrote: »

Firstly - Full disclosure. I am an alumnus of Cistercian College Roscrea.
Regardless of your opinion of the rights or wrongs of the Roscrea v. Michael's game it is fair to say that very little seperated the teams over both games.
My question is why is there such a vastly disproportionate representation from these schools at representative level. I could do with some back-up on this but I understand that Roscrea have 2 players - I Leinster and 1 Connacht and that Michaels have close to ten involved in the Leinster schools set-up.
While acknowledging that many teams are more than the sum of their parts it seems to me that there's an inexplicable bias against Leinster schools outside of Dublin (with the possible exception of Clongowes). Why is this? Is the Michael's coach involved with Leinster Schools? Preferential selection for certain schools will only weaken the provintial teams in the long run.

Roscrea had Rory Moloney (starting and crazy that hes not on Irish panel) and Cromac Brennan (sub on Leinster) Eamonn Quirke, B Panel, Oisin Heffernan would have been on Leinster, and prob Ireland, only for a knee injury picked up last year. The following players are involved with Connaught: Matt Mellotte, Ross Mooney, Sean O Brien ( Ireland aswell), cirain Gaffney and of course Philip O Dwyer, who everybody knows isn't good enough to play for Ireland !!!!!!!!!!!

It's easy see why these players choose to play for Connaught instead of Leinster schools when you see the way they are treated by Leinster Schools Branch and their belief that you have to be a top 6 school to play in cup final. There are no more top 6 in Leinster. It's an outdated sense on entitlement that puts pressure on weak referees like that guy to give advantages to these schools.

Dev5976

El_Phil wrote: »

Firstly - Full disclosure. I am an alumnus of Cistercian College Roscrea.
Regardless of your opinion of the rights or wrongs of the Roscrea v. Michael's game it is fair to say that very little seperated the teams over both games.
My question is why is there such a vastly disproportionate representation from these schools at representative level. I could do with some back-up on this but I understand that Roscrea have 2 players - I Leinster and 1 Connacht and that Michaels have close to ten involved in the Leinster schools set-up.

Whilst you're an Alumni and clearly know more about Roscrea than I do, I am certain that you've got your numbers wrong there.

Roscrea representatives as far as I know are:

Ireland: Sean O'Brien
Leinster: Rory Moloney, Cormac Brennon
Connaught: Philip O'Dwyer, Matthew Mellotte, Ross Moony, Ciaran Gaffney.

If I'm wrong I apologise. Clearly your point is still correct though and the boys from the 'big' 4 or 5 schools always supply the larger numbers of players, certainly at u18 level, but the cream rises to the top in the end.

Quint2010

El_Phil wrote: »

Firstly - Full disclosure. I am an alumnus of Cistercian College Roscrea.
Regardless of your opinion of the rights or wrongs of the Roscrea v. Michael's game it is fair to say that very little seperated the teams over both games.
My question is why is there such a vastly disproportionate representation from these schools at representative level. I could do with some back-up on this but I understand that Roscrea have 2 players - I Leinster and 1 Connacht and that Michaels have close to ten involved in the Leinster schools set-up.
While acknowledging that many teams are more than the sum of their parts it seems to me that there's an inexplicable bias against Leinster schools outside of Dublin (with the possible exception of Clongowes). Why is this? Is the Michael's coach involved with Leinster Schools? Preferential selection for certain schools will only weaken the provintial teams in the long run.

Can't remember if it's the Michaels or the Clongowes coach who coaches Leinster Schools but one of them does. On the point as to why there are so many Michaels players in the Leinster set up-these players have been monitored and selected at U16 and U17 level also and I can only assume these players came through. Those players have been individually identified as having the most talent in their individual position. Does not of course mean that when those players play for their schools team that they are going to be more than the sum of their parts. There were eight Terenure players in the Leinster U18 squad and none from Blackrock yet Terenure only beat Blackrock 17-15.

El_Phil

Dev5976 wrote: »

Whilst you're an Alumni and clearly know more about Roscrea than I do, I am certain that you've got your numbers wrong there.

Roscrea representatives as far as I know are:

Ireland: Sean O'Brien
Leinster: Rory Moloney, Cormac Brennon
Connaught: Philip O'Dwyer, Matthew Mellotte, Ross Moony, Ciaran Gaffney.

If I'm wrong I apologise. Clearly your point is still correct though and the boys from the 'big' 4 or 5 schools always supply the larger numbers of players, certainly at u18 level, but the cream rises to the top in the end.

I did go to Roscrea but a long time ago. Thanks for the clarification re the players and their representative status. I do know that the guys who go to Roscrea come from all over the country, but the school is in Leinster (the gates of the school are in Munster!), plays in Leinster and as such Leinster schools should have first pick of the players, regardless of the player's origins. Connacht have always, I'd imagine, long viewed Roscrea as an untapped source of good players. Oddly I do not know of any Roscrea players who have represented Munster Schools, who would have, one would imagine a better claim on them than Connacht.

I think that the ideal situation would be to have a person as Leinster schools coach without a direct affiliation to any school or a particular group of players but that's probably a bit aspirational!

thebaz

El_Phil wrote: »

Regardless of your opinion of the rights or wrongs of the Roscrea v. Michael's game it is fair to say that very little seperated the teams over both games.
My question is why is there such a vastly disproportionate representation from these schools at representative level. .

i would doubt very much if there is a conspiracy theory - " Lets just pick Dublin 4 boys" - I'm sure there were also those from Dublin schools that fealt overlooked - Roscrea is also technically in Munster , or very close , and seams to have ties to Connaught - so it is a bit of an exception - also, Michaels seamed to have some problem , from reading here , where some of there interpros didnt get picked - not sure why ?

El_Phil

Quint2010 wrote: »

Can't remember if it's the Michaels or the Clongowes coach who coaches Leinster Schools but one of them does. On the point as to why there are so many Michaels players in the Leinster set up-these players have been monitored and selected at U16 and U17 level also and I can only assume these players came through. Those players have been individually identified as having the most talent in their individual position. Does not of course mean that when those players play for their schools team that they are going to be more than the sum of their parts. There were eight Terenure players in the Leinster U18 squad and none from Blackrock yet Terenure only beat Blackrock 17-15.

Perhaps the real issue has been touched upon in this post. The real bias would appear to exist pre-schools level at U-16 and U-17 level where players have been monitored , selected and groomed for future honours. These players are then known quantities when the first Leinster and Ireland squads are announced at the start of a season.
Anyone involved in this process is probably Dublin based and for logistical reasons could probably watch 2 games in Dublin rather than hike to Roscrea, Newbridge or Kilkenny to watch 1.
I think that any bias, or perceived bias towards Dublin based players may even count against them in the longer term as the Dublin schools scene is a goldfish bowl and promising Dublin players may believe their own hype. Allied to this is that a lot of the players from outside Dublin perceive a bias and can have a chip on their shoulders. Not necessarily a bad thing when playing a game of rugby.

Fight_Night

El_Phil wrote: »

Firstly - Full disclosure. I am an alumnus of Cistercian College Roscrea.
Regardless of your opinion of the rights or wrongs of the Roscrea v. Michael's game it is fair to say that very little seperated the teams over both games.
My question is why is there such a vastly disproportionate representation from these schools at representative level. I could do with some back-up on this but I understand that Roscrea have 2 players - I Leinster and 1 Connacht and that Michaels have close to ten involved in the Leinster schools set-up.
While acknowledging that many teams are more than the sum of their parts it seems to me that there's an inexplicable bias against Leinster schools outside of Dublin (with the possible exception of Clongowes). Why is this? Is the Michael's coach involved with Leinster Schools? Preferential selection for certain schools will only weaken the provintial teams in the long run.

This isn't really a new phenomenon and it's not exclusive to rugby either, the Big 6 consistently produce the best teams so their players get more attention. 5 out of the 6 schools are Dublin based. The odds are that there has been a few players from non big 6 schools(and the bias is not purely for Dublin schools, rather to the big 6 schools) that have fallen through the cracks but that unfortunately is the way things go. Same thing happens when College scouts in America go looking for Basketball or Football players, if you're on a good team you're gonna have a better chance of getting noticed.

Gordon Gecko

Why is it that every year this thread is hijacked by people whinging about how schools from outside Dublin (with the perennial exception of Clongowes - as they don't fit conveniently in with the theory) are the victims of a grand conspiracy headed by arch-villains the big 6?

Quint2010

Can anyone confirm the dates for the senior cup QF's? In particular the Terenure Gonazga match which is down for the 23rd?

fox_1973

Quint2010 wrote: »

Can anyone confirm the dates for the senior cup QF's? In particular the Terenure Gonazga match which is down for the 23rd?

that game is definatly on the 23rd as opposed to the 21st which was the original date

LFC5Times

Gordon Gecko wrote: »

Why is it that every year this thread is hijacked by people whinging about how schools from outside Dublin (with the perennial exception of Clongowes - as they don't fit conveniently in with the theory) are the victims of a grand conspiracy headed by arch-villains the big 6?

It's small man syndrome or shall I say small school syndrome.

Also who are those people who voted "other" in the poll for the Winners of the Senior Cup. :rolleyes:

countrychap

djhfygkhil wrote: »

personaly i think that CUS have an excellent chance this year in the senior cup as they have an excellent team and a dangerous back 3 that can strike at any given moment they will be going to the finals and winning it come on CUS!

Yes they have a 50/50 chance or more against Kilkenny,they just seen to have a lot of luck ask Roscrea last kick of game and Castleknock only by one point. but beat Michaels or Bray in a S/Final. And then the real team Clongowes I think a couple of steps to far. Best of luck tho

Quint2010

LFC5Times wrote: »

It's small man syndrome or shall I say small school syndrome.

Also who are those people who voted "other" in the poll for the Winners of the Senior Cup. :rolleyes:

Perhaps next year I will design the poll and mention the teams who were classified as "other" this year and class as "other" the big six..

LFC5Times

Quint2010 wrote: »

Perhaps next year I will design the poll and mention the teams who were classified as "other" this year and class as "other" the big six..

Even just have between 6 to 8 selections and leave it at that, no need for "other" as realistically nobody else is going to win it apart from the usual suspects.

It might get the back up of those "other" schools though.

ormond lad

Any idea how the irish schools squad will get on in the FIRA comp over easter?(i know its early but better to keep this in mind as the cups begin to enter the latter stages and we can look at the players in the squad and who is likely to start in the team come april)
The welsh side they could be playing in the cup is playing a leicester academy side(including irish lad stephen mac auley) at the moment and was losing 31-15 with a few minutes

Have heard storys that the schools team is pulling out of this comp after this year and ireland will be represented by a youths team like ireland was every year up to last year. Anyone know anything more?

Quint2010

ormond lad wrote: »

Any idea how the irish schools squad will get on in the FIRA comp over easter?(i know its early but better to keep this in mind as the cups begin to enter the latter stages and we can look at the players in the squad and who is likely to start in the team come april)
The welsh side they could be playing in the cup is playing a leicester academy side(including irish lad stephen mac auley) at the moment and was losing 31-15 with a few minutes

Have heard storys that the schools team is pulling out of this comp after this year and ireland will be represented by a youths team like ireland was every year up to last year. Anyone know anything more?

If its the U18 team then players like the Byrne brothers who look set to dominate the cup wont be playing. I hope though that the team is selected on form and has not been already picked regardless of cup form

ormond lad

Quint2010 wrote: »

If its the U18 team then players like the Byrne brothers who look set to dominate the cup wont be playing. I hope though that the team is selected on form and has not been already picked regardless of cup form

irish schools team is 18s
19s only play a couple of games
Most players will have been picked already and not many will be added to squad who werent involved in training camps

muscleshirt

ormond lad wrote: »

Any idea how the irish schools squad will get on in the FIRA comp over easter?(i know its early but better to keep this in mind as the cups begin to enter the latter stages and we can look at the players in the squad and who is likely to start in the team come april)
The welsh side they could be playing in the cup is playing a leicester academy side(including irish lad stephen mac auley) at the moment and was losing 31-15 with a few minutes

Have heard storys that the schools team is pulling out of this comp after this year and ireland will be represented by a youths team like ireland was every year up to last year. Anyone know anything more?

leicester academy beat clongowes 22-0 last december

ormond lad

muscleshirt wrote: »

leicester academy beat clongowes 22-0 last december

And a leicester acad team drew with munster 18s and got hammered by a leinster 18s team this season

Quint2010

muscleshirt wrote: »

leicester academy beat clongowes 22-0 last december

Ah so they are beatable. Ironically the only two teams to beat Terenure this season are they two schools they will have met in the first two rounds-Blackrock and Gonzaga..

profitius

I just had a look at the Leicester website. They have 43 players in their academy!

ormond lad

profitius wrote: »

I just had a look at the Leicester website. They have 43 players in their academy!

Some of those players are born in 93, 94 and are only u18s. We dont have players that young in the academy