reloading?

blackpowder

hello everyone ,i,ve followed the threads on shooting for quite a number of years on here ,i noticed some people are buying reload kits ect in anticapation of the long awaited reloading by the new goverment .i just have a few questions i would like to share if at all possible to see what you chaps think (as for myself i,d keenly love to get involved in some old pryrodex/bp shooting if and when the new bill is passed) 1. will the bill really be passed to allow reloaders and muzzloaders i have heard it will be this year? you might think me a bit cynical for saying it like that just that in 2009 i thought we would get the chance under dermott Ahern but he didn't address the issue at all in the firearms act .2009 2. what provisions would the shooter have to make in regards to holding an lb of bp per say would it be having to attend a course on health and safety or what pretext do you think because i don't think it even though made legal it would be readily handed out either 3. and finally would it be crazy to go ordering a reproduction musket from henry kranks on the basis of the explosives legislation being passed??? thank you all very much for any information

tac foley

deleted.

blackpowder

well said tac yes the creedmore cup is right , yes i have followed it with interest on the furum's here ect. i was talking to one or two people (one chap from lakeland guns in mullingar and he seemed to think that the creedmore event would get the whole ball rolling on the whole reloading thing ,but in what context he wasn't able to say of course until the new legislation being passed ,last year as a matter of fact i contacted the dept of justice i was just testing the c42 route the opinion there was that the importation and use of bp/pyrodex was illegal as well as primers being used and it was very rare for license to be given ,i was told to wait for the long awaited new legislation i dont mind waiting a bit at all just that i hope the new laws when in being will provide for the ordinary reloader , i dont mind having to do a health and safety class am willing to set up what what ever home safety storage that will be asked of to comply with the new legislation so what more can one do in all fairness

Cass

blackpowder wrote: »

1. will the bill really be passed to allow reloaders and muzzloaders i have heard it will be this year?

No-one knows. We have no part in the passing of any legislation so only know when it becaomes an Act. Besides did you not recieve an e-mail from the DOJ assuring you that it would be?

blackpowder (4-2-2011) wrote:

i got an e mail today which basically outlined that under the current legislation importation of propellant and holding of it is prohibited but this person at the dept, reassured me new legisation would definitly be in this year 2011 to clear up the grey area and allowances for reloading be introduced they said that there would be moves definitly in the next few months

2. what provisions would the shooter have to make in regards to holding an lb of bp per say would it be having to attend a course on health and safety or what pretext do you think because i don't think it even though made legal it would be readily handed out either

Again we can only speculate at this point. Simply having the explosive Act done and dusted does not automatically mean everyone can start getting powder immediately irrespective of security/safety conditions that need adhering to. I would not even guess as to the conditions that may be required for fear that any statment would be seen as a willingness to accept strict conditions in order to get reloading.

3. and finally would it be crazy to go ordering a reproduction musket from henry kranks on the basis of the explosives legislation being passed??? thank you all very much for any information

As said above, Yes. You, me and everyone else has no idea what is coming. The conditions may be such that a person may not even have the ability to reload at home and it must be carried out on a range. Then it would be up to the individual ranges as to whom they allow to use the facilities.

There are simply to many unknowns to make any definitive plans based on what you may think or hope will happen. There will be plenty of time when the bill is passed, plus when it gets to this point and dealers realise that there is now a market prices may drop due to increased orders of such guns as mentioned above.

tac foley wrote: »

..........., that again has not yet been made known to the ordinary folks of this island.

Well, most of them.

The Irish team who gave the Americans such a hard-fought fight in the recent Creedmore match would be able to tell you what storage requirements THEY had to follow. As the only licensed practitioners of centre-fire reloading in the entire country, nobody else is able to tell you.

Again with the "them". Those involved in the Creedmoor cannot tell you what is required for the storage of powder anymore than any other person out there. We DID NOT have personal storage of powder. It was imported through the range, stored on the range and used on the range. There is no rmoving of primers or powder from the range. Any abuse of this system would result in immediate expulsion from the range and that person being struck from the list of people allowed to carry out reloading through the pilot scheme.

So the idea of us kowing anymore than any one else is simply not the case.

blackpowder wrote: »

............ ,last year as a matter of fact i contacted the dept of justice i was just testing the c42 route the opinion there was that the importation and use of bp/pyrodex was illegal ..........

It is not illegal simply not being permitted at the moment, hence prohibited as you already attested to.............

blackpowder (4-2-2011) wrote:

........... under the current legislation importation of propellant and holding of it is prohibited ..........

tac foley

Ezridax wrote: »

Again with the "them". Those involved in the Creedmoor cannot tell you what is required for the storage of powder anymore than any other person out there. We DID NOT have personal storage of powder. It was imported through the range, stored on the range and used on the range. There is no rmoving of primers or powder from the range. Any abuse of this system would result in immediate expulsion from the range and that person being struck from the list of people allowed to carry out reloading through the pilot scheme.

Sir - it is not necessary to jump down my throat - the name 'ezridax' did not appear in the list of persons shooting in the Irish team, so how am I supposed to know that you were one of them?

At least you did as I asked, since you were one of them, that is to say, one of the team who were permitted to reload, and told us that you did not have personal storage faciltities. I, and most of the rest of us with at least two brain cells to to rub together, might have guessed that for ourselves, but I was rather hoping for more detail about what the arrangements made for the actual act of reloading actually were.

Unless, of course, you have been sworn to secrecy?

It's all getting to be rather farcical - rather than the simple procedure that it really is, it seems to be getting imbued with an almost mystical, arcane and alchemical act not unlike transubstantiation.

Sad, that.

tac

Sparks

tac foley wrote: »

Sir - it is not necessary to jump down my throat - the name 'ezridax' did not appear in the list of persons shooting in the Irish team, so how am I supposed to know that you were one of them?

At least you did as I asked, since you were one of them, that is to say, one of the team who were permitted to reload, and told us that you did not have personal storage faciltities. I, and most of the rest of us with at least two brain cells to to rub together, might have guessed that for ourselves, but I was rather hoping for more detail about what the arrangements made for the actual act of reloading actually were.

Unless, of course, you have been sworn to secrecy?

I think the fact that Ezri's posted details on the entire process on here from start to finish rather answers your first question and makes your second not so much a question as an admission that you're asking without having read the stuff that was posted about it here. Now, shy of pointing out that noone volunteered to read the stuff out loud to you, I don't really see how you could say that no details were forthcoming - there were threads on the match, questions answered for months prior to that on here, and there were even public meetings here where those questions were answered in person by the people running the trials. I say "questions", I should probably say "whinging" because the main question we saw asked time and again was "why should you guys be allowed do this? where's our pilot programme?", and the answer to the query "did you ask to do this?" was always answered with a negative. Frankly, it's baffling to me. A group of lads goes out of their way in pursuit of something that will benefit all. They invest tens of thousands of euro and thousands of manhours making it happen. And instead of people actually celebrating this, all we see instead is passive-aggressive begrudgery the likes of which you'd regard as unbelievable in a stereotype, let alone the real world.

And quite a bit of it came from you tac which is surprising since you can just take your tea and biccies and go reload in your shed right now if you wish (bluntly, I've never understood why you keep pointing that out by the way - it doesn't sound like you're bragging, it actually reads as though you're berating us for labouring under stupid laws, as though we chose them ourselves).

tac foley

Sir - I take the hits - you're right, I should pay more attention to what is posted.

But I've been away a long time and missed out a lot of the fun.

I promise that no more on the subject of reloading will come from me on this board.

tac

Sparks

tac foley wrote: »

All I've tried to do, without success, obviously, is to show how unsatisfactory the present lack of something that is taken for granted elswhere is for all of you there.

While I can appreciate the sentiment tac - and I say that without cynicism - you've got to appreciate that we're very well aware of the point that it's daft. It annoys us, it's so daft. It's right up there with having to have a gun safe for an air pistol but not needing a safe for a shotgun. It's up there with needing a licence for an air rifle that isn't legally a firearm anywhere else in the EU. It's up there with licences that have no photo ID but need photos for the application form. It's up there with banning IPSC but specifically exempting airsoft and paintball. It's up there with giving the range inspector powers of search over every home, building, vehicle and place in the country so he can investigate if he things there's target shooting going on on an unlicenced range, but never legally defining what target shooting is (and somehow deciding that clay pigeon shooting isn't target shooting). It's up there with a definition of 'firearm' that can be applied to each and every component part of the firearm without qualification, from the action and receiver and barrel to the screws that hold the stock together. It's up there with a Minister who bans handguns to prevent gun crime despite stating in the Dail on the record many times that no civilian-owned handgun had ever been used in a crime.

In other words, yes, we understand - at a painfully visceral level - how screwed up the system is, and we appreciate the condolences, but it's not actually something you need to draw to our attention, the same way you wouldn't have to point out the broken bone to someone with a compound fracture of the tibia...

Glensman

Sparks wrote: »

While I can appreciate the sentiment tac - and I say that without cynicism - you've got to appreciate that we're very well aware of the point that it's daft. It annoys us, it's so daft. It's right up there with having to have a gun safe for an air pistol but not needing a safe for a shotgun. It's up there with needing a licence for an air rifle that isn't legally a firearm anywhere else in the EU. It's up there with licences that have no photo ID but need photos for the application form. It's up there with banning IPSC but specifically exempting airsoft and paintball. It's up there with giving the range inspector powers of search over every home, building, vehicle and place in the country so he can investigate if he things there's target shooting going on on an unlicenced range, but never legally defining what target shooting is (and somehow deciding that clay pigeon shooting isn't target shooting). It's up there with a definition of 'firearm' that can be applied to each and every component part of the firearm without qualification, from the action and receiver and barrel to the screws that hold the stock together. It's up there with a Minister who bans handguns to prevent gun crime despite stating in the Dail on the record many times that no civilian-owned handgun had ever been used in a crime.

In other words, yes, we understand - at a painfully visceral level - how screwed up the system is, and we appreciate the condolences, but it's not actually something you need to draw to our attention, the same way you wouldn't have to point out the broken bone to someone with a compound fracture of the tibia...

Except here as well...
But everything else you have said is spot on!

blackpowder

just a quick reply ,basically ezrid i would disagree when i approached the doj in april i really just wanted to clarify the situation as i know there is provisions through the c42 route for shooting bp/pyrodex but i was told 2 things through a email to confirm the situation from the dept of justice 1. was that it was practically unheard of ever for any reloader to have ever imported powder ,primers ect in to ireland and it was also an illegal at the moment for shooting purposes ,i know the little bit of legislation is there and arcane as it is i can only guess this would probably be people in the buissness of firework displays ect pyrotechics which i believe is also classed as a propellant
not shooters or reloaders ,somebody mentioned on the threads that no one knows what course the legislation on explosives bill might take but surely it has to accommodate muzzle loading shooters or reloaders on some level or why inact this bill at all then?????? as you said ezridax if and when the legislation is ever bought in to being one can be assured that the level on security and compliance to be expected will be pretty big i suspect personally probably those interested having to do a health and safety course in handling of the propellant, storage of propellant in a garda station, and then only certain amount being bought to the club in question for use,as well as background checks, if and when the legislation is passed and is like the 2009 bill which didn't bother being addressed by dermott ahern properly ,why at all even bother with new legislation at all thats what im wondering , and with the creedmore cup being being successful and hopefully paving the way towards some kind of normality towards these aspects of sport what are successvie justice minister after another so afraid of that is has being accepted as a great part of shooting sports on the continent ,england america

blackpowder

well tac they ask may have to give hair analysis do , do a polygraph test, give blood samples run around the ring of kerry six times all at once as part of the new legislation :Dbut but seriously we,re talking about tourism in this country and how it might help save us from the brink of economic ruin i have friends in america and europe when we,ve chatted about this cant believe how we are letting oppertunities like this slip us by as in tourists come over here would do a bit of blackpowder shooting on the holiday ,the germans and americans love it but its like the off license laws theres to much red tape in everything in ireland and eveything is bonded by some obscure law or act

Cass

blackpowder wrote: »

........... 1. was that it was practically unheard of ever for any reloader to have ever imported powder ,primers ect in to ireland and it was also an illegal at the moment for shooting purposes

There is the thing. That word "illegal" gets thrown around a little too freely for my liking and not used in the proper context. It IS NOT illegal to import powder, etc. It is prevented from the point of view that the necessary licenses and inport permits are not being issued. You may say this is the same thing and in essence it is, but legally there is a huge difference.

Illegal means against the law. Prevented means they not issuing the paperwork necessary. They have to work of the current law/legislation. The new Act should clear all this up but until it passes and becomes an Act they must work off the existing laws. Under existing laws you can legally have them if you can get the license to hold the powder and the import documentation for the importation through a dealer. However they are refusing to issue these licenses, etc so in effect is stalled. However saying it is illegal is just WRONG.

i suspect personally probably those interested having to do a health and safety course in handling of the propellant

Possibly and it wouldn;t be a bad idea.

storage of propellant in a garda station,

I doubt it. A Garda would have to be qualified (firearms Officer or such) and then the area the powder is to be stored must meet the same safety requirements as the midlands was made to adhere to otherwise it would be double standards. Also trying to meet your FO to get powder would be tricky at best. I don;t think this would be a runner at all.

and then only certain amount being bought to the club in question for use,

It would be simpler for the club to erect security building rather than every individual shooter trying to meet the same conditions.

as well as background checks,

Already done for your firearms cert(s).

if and when the legislation is passed and is like the 2009 bill which didn't bother being addressed by dermott ahern properly ,why at all even bother with new legislation at all thats what im wondering

The firearms act was "updated" in 2009 but as propellant and BP fall outside of the description of firearms and ammunition as per DOJ, then the act of 2009 ha nothing to do with it. Thats the reason the new explosive bill is being drafted.

we,re talking about tourism in this country and how it might help save us from the brink of economic ruin

I really don't want to be ignorant so excuse me if what i say comes across as "angry" or "nasty", but thats rubbish.

Tourism is by far the least concern any minister, shooting body, organisation has on its mind when waiting/prepring/consulting for new legislation. Ireland has never been known for its tourist shooting holidays as per American, Polish, etc gunranges, etc. Apart from powder/BP, etc we do not allow the firearms that these people can openly use in their own countries.

Even if all this were available i would like to see the numbers that show how shooting from a tourist point of view could in any way make a dent in current economic pitfall.

Besides all that the only concern for now is not to get reloading for tourists but for the shootes of this country.

Cass

I have been asked why i think a health and safety course "wouldn't be a bad idea" as it is not mandatory in other countries.

My view is simple. If they intorduce a course that must be completed prior to been giving reloading then we don;t have an option in the matter. So how i feel about it is irrelevant. However i see nothing wrong with a course that shows the baics as to how reloading is carried out. I know there are a crap load of books out there that explain everything however sitting down for an hour or two and having someone run through everything you need for reloading not to mention the technique would be better than reading a book.

There would be somethings i would like to see in such a course if it were made a necesity.

• That would include recommendations for equipment should be from basic to top level gear so no new reloader gets info on the most expensive gear only or on stuff that they may not need.
• The course on basic reloading would cover the exact "how to" rather than someones idea of the best way. Peoples ideas of how to reload differ as much as their choice of guns and the reasons why.
• Summary on the warning signs to look for in brass, primers, etc.
• Correct following of reloading guides/powder measures to prevent someone thinking they know better or copying a load they read/seen somewhere and causing injury to themselves.

Information can never be a bad thing. As said this is all academic as we have no idea whats going to be in the new legislation. It may be a prerequisite or not. I really don't want to go into every possible aspect incase i give someone ideas. :cool:

landkeeper

ezridax how many of the irish squad actually availed of the reloading facility that the permit was granted for ?
was it a worthwhile exercise in your experience did it take much time to develop loads to suit individual rifles

blackpowder

Just in reply to Ezridax on a number of points some of them i agree with others not , for one i think anything that will give a boost to tourism has to help ireland if a bit of tourism/ shooting can help that's great ,YOU are right about getting Irish shooters sorted first that would be great but when is the question and for who ? ezridax you mentioned the tourism /shooting would be of little importance in regards to a minster writing up or amending the legislation but if we are part of the E.U why are we in this country that it seems we can not have the right to decide for ourselves rather its when the minister feels when we are able to handle it and are we responsible often think of it as almost like a bold child complex we have and the minsters all down the line seem to think we,re just not ready for this,(i soppose what i meant in that respect too was if we could see tourists coming in doing a spot of bp/reloading it would help the image of the sport here and show

A lot of good points of skill are involved in gun sports and maybe learn from them its not a bad thing ) as i often thought that if there was more interest in the field of black powder shooting as a sport here this legislation would have being passed a long time back, that the same interest was not here as in England and in Europe and it handnt the same body of interest as other types of gun sports and never caught on as or never got the chance too.

Now that the troubles have calmed down a lot in N.i i find it hard to accept that it has taken so long to get to the point where we might(only might yet i guess ) be allowed to get involved in this aspect of shooting and as every one knows shooting sports is very resticted here as it is already but the fact that the original creedmore cup drew several thousand spectators why has so much changed ? why was there such a huge interest among the population back then compared to now? ,

As ezrid says shooting/tourism is not going to fix our problems i never said it was i guess i meant it enhances the role of the irish shooter to see people bring the sport here ,

Anyway ezridax you mention the point of the legality of propellant in this country,another point in the days of the celtic tiger i knew a couple of chaps from poland and hungary who were big in to the muzzle loading and reloading back in their own countries but found it untenible here to actively shoot with the laws regarding importing propellant and bringing in powder by license one or two of them tried and contacted the dept and were told the same thing as me that it is not illegal but prevented so almost impossible ,

I contacted the dept of justice in april to try and clarify could i import some powder and primers i just wanted to know where they stood i was told by their office in an e mail that under the law blackpowder would not be allowed to be imported for shooting purposes until the law regarding this will be cleared up so in essence from my understanding from what you are saying ezrid is basically that a license can be granted but YET THEY ARE NOT BEING ISSUED YET NOT ILLEGAL, BUT PREVENTED? that to me doesnt add up i would rather be told something is illegal or isnt it??

May i ask finally why if the dept can issue imports licenses where is the problem then with them being granted .as the law stands now as it is as far as i know not any c42 certs have ever being granted to anyone for the reasons of shooting i can understand the concerns of the guards, the HSA but i feel those interested would be more then happy to comply with all aspects of the law in regards to the proper use and handling of propellant and primers ,what more can the humble irish shooter do??

tac foley

My eyes hurt, but I get the gist of what you are trying to say.

I think.

tac

blackpowder

thanks tac at least someone understands, even if i dont make much sense i probably make more sense then the reloading laws at the moment or the quasi non exsentence of them:mad:

Cass

Landkeeper wrote:

ezridax how many of the irish squad actually availed of the reloading facility that the permit was granted for ?

As far as i know all of them. I wasn't personally in contact with all the lads prior to, and throughout the competition but i would find it funny to think that with all the work that went into getting the reloading for some to refuse/not use the facilities.

was it a worthwhile exercise in your experience did it take much time to develop loads to suit individual rifles

Its an ongoing experience, but most definitely worthwhile. With the Creemoor behind us, and numerous competitions coming up including the Europeans and Worlds it is as important to still have the reloading as it was in the run up to the Creedmoor. In relation to load developement i spent some long days prior to the Creedmoor working on a load, starting from the lowest charge and working up. The advantage of having all the facilities at the range was being able to load some rounds, go and test fire them and get the info you need and then going back to the reloading facilities and tweaking it or simply running off a few rounds that work.

blackpowder wrote:

the right to decide for ourselves

Taking all that into account there is one factor that we all have to understand. Firearm ownership in Ireland is a "concession" given to us. We have no legal right/entitlement to firearm ownership. This extends to ammunition, powder, etc.

if we could see tourists coming in doing a spot of bp/reloading it would help the image of the sport here

And maybe in the years to come when reloading is well established it will be available, but for now and with the attitudes towards reloading the main concern is to get it for our own shooters both on a competition front an dpersonal front. It is more important to get reloading to futher our own sprts rather than entertain some tourists. Plus, and BP aside, if i were a tourist i would be more interested in firing a few shots than spending a few hours in a shed/bunker making the rounds.

May i ask finally why if the dept can issue imports licenses where is the problem then with them being granted

As i've said before because those in authority do not fully understand reloading and so are taking baby steps while implimenting it. Remember that the explosive bill has not been passed so all steps taken so far, including those in the pilot scheme, are in line with the old laws and regulations. They cannot impliment a full run out of reloading even if they wanted until the new legislation is in place and they have a fixed and steadfast set of laws/rules to work from.

So to prevent any mishaps, powder being issued/imported, anyone reloading they simply refuse the import of the somponants necessary until they are good and ready.

The fact of the matter is this. I agree with other posters on a number of points including the advantages of reloaded ammo over factory ammo, and the cost saving. I have said it before that i would love to see everyone with the ability to reload i genuinely would, but with current attitudes surrounding reloading and firearms in general the PTB will not simply "hand it out".

We, and i mean all shooters in Ireland, are painfully aware of the cost of ammo compared to elsewhere in the EU/World. We are aware of the strict gun laws that other countries do not have. We are aware of the poorly worded, mish mosh, self contradicting legislation we have surrounding firearms. Most of us have been putting up with it for years upon years. Even the new legislation that was to re-vamp the firearms act and hurt the criminals while not affecting the "Honest, decent , law abiding firearm owner" is a mess. As Sparks, and others have attested to over the years since its introduction there are probably a dozen or so people in the entire country that fully understand all the Acts, amendments, SIs, etc.

As with all things in Ireland progression is slow and every step is checked, rechecked, and assessed before proceeding. So if we have to build bunkers, limit the reloading to a range, do a course, etc to have reloading i say fine. I'll do it. If it means i get what i want then so be it. Once we have it we can move forward, but if we refused it or said we wanted everything that is available elsewhere or nothing at all then you all know the answer we'd get.

I have also said in the past that people complaining about not having reloading should ask any NGB, organisation, club, range, etc that they are affiliated to why they did not ask for it on their behalf instead of complaining about how one NGB that did seek it, got it. There was a 3 month (IIRC) open invitation to all parties and individuals to submit requests to the DOJ for reloading. Only one responded. Now that range/NGB is the focus of both attention and scorn from all others that did not apply. Why? Where would we be if they had not sought the reloading? Would we be having this conversation at all? Lets face if it that one application did not go in there would have been no-one seeking reloading, in the eyes of the PTB, and by association no interest in reloading therefore no need for it.

I realise you all think its easy for me and the others that have access to the reloading facilities to say "relax, it'll happen when it happens". You all must realise that we can ONLY make target rounds. Even though we have it its not a "free for all" making as many rounds as we want for every sort of activity (ie - hunting, etc). Target/Competition rounds ONLY.

As it stands reloading is still alive and kicking. However limited or small its still here. The pilot scheme should be viewed as a positive. It can only lead to future progression in reloading. Whether that progression is positive or negative no-one will know until the propossed explosive bill is finalised and passed. I tend to stay positive and hope for the best. Others are free to see it as they wish.

tac foley

Ezridax wrote: »

. There was a 3 month (IIRC) open invitation to all parties and individuals to submit requests to the DOJ for reloading. Only one responded.

That, Sir, is not true.

The Vintage Classic Rifle Association of Ireland [www.vcrai.com] also responded.

If you wish to have a copy of the submission that was made, please email me.

Thank you.

tac

Cass

tac foley wrote: »

That, Sir, is not true.

You are right. If refering to the 3 month period it could have been longer.

If you are refering to "Only one responded", then yes there was another application made, but long after the first and only submission. However i am not specifying one organisation or trying to start a row with any other group, but instead am making a broad statment regarding every other organisation. I would be curious who else applied for it after the first FCP meeting when it was discovered that only one had applied. I mean if it was so unfair that we do not have reloading why was no-one else applied when offered the opportunity.

The Vintage Classic Rifle Association of Ireland URL="http://[URL]http://www.vcrai.com]/"][COLOR=#0066cc]www.vcrai.com][/COLOR][/URL[/URL also responded.

In 2009 (Feb or Oct. I can't remember which) the VCRAI submitted an application. So whatever happened to it? Who followed up on it? What reasons were given for not allowing it?

While everyone/party/organisation/group/NGB was free to apply i'm sure there had to be legitimate reasons for requesting reloading. Also other factors had to be considered. Where would it take place? Have the person(s)/organisations a range/location of their own? Not unlike a firearms license is the reason valid. IOW wanting a firearm is not a valid reason so it must stand to reason that simply wanting reloading would not/may not be a valid enough reason.

If you wish to have a copy of the submission that was made, please email me.

Thank you.

tac

Not necessary, but thank you for the offer.