Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 2011-2012

deisebhoy17

Mountainlad wrote: »

How many times have you accused people of being Davy Fitz?

I'm not Clinton Hennessey's son, though to be fair to you that was actually a funny suggestion.

Lots of people disagree with me, most of them I discuss or argue with in an attempt to:

A) Show them where I'm coming from
See where they're coming from and why I might actually be wrong, which I can be

Yes I wasn't born in the 80's, what's your point? Am I too young to post here, is that what you're suggesting?

I have only called one person a muppet, and you a troll. That's hardly everybody that disagrees with me!

ah will u lighten up!!!

were all passionate about this and its just a bit of fun at the end of the day. Resorting to name calling over the web is a bit pitiful... Im sure youyll agree when youve calmed down. You do make some very valid points but you seem to have lost the plot today...

egpower

liogairmhordain wrote: »

looks like a very messy situation is developing with various unresolved issues from june 2008 coming into play.
however all is not lost yet. the clocks havent even gone forward yet. fellas are still training under lights.
for what its worth i don't think sunday's game matters that much. there's very little chance of waterford avoiding the relegation play-off. most likely we'll be playing dublin in that game on april 15th. (three weeks away)
after that game there'll be a full two months before the clare game on june 17th. championship hurling.
things haven't been great so far but michael ryan deserves to be have judgement on his management withheld until we see how the men in white and blue perform on that date.

Sound man lio! We're all just a little bit tetchy at the moment what with the lack of real action (see reference to training under lights). Hurling is not made for March (unless it's in the Algarve). To be fair, I think you're not saying the patient is not very sick - just that a lot can change between now and June.

That said, the fact that the players clearly were not "playing for their manager" last Sunday is very concerning. You don't get a second chance to make a first impression and clearly Michael has not made a good first impression with the players. Hard to see a happy ending...

Fentdog84

Good, well balanced post. We've had 3 tough opening matches that we werent fancied to get anything out of anyway and while the margin of the defeats was dissapointing I wouldnt label them disasters either. I definitly dont think all is lost as far as our year goes. Scully needs to be given time to bring the young players through and I think we are back playing a more fluent style again than under davy and he seems to be selecting players more akin to that. It's not all going to happen overnight. With senior players coming back etc i still think we could have a good championship if we can get over Clare, we're only one match from an All ireland semi final again, which would represent a good year. I think we should give Ryan at least another year regardless unless of course we get serious beatings in the championship.

I do find Cashin's departure kind of unsettling though. We dont know the specific details at this point but here is a good hurling man with lots of experience and acheivment in the game feeling the need to walk away is not a good sign.It sounds to me as the other poster alluded to that the players(some of them) need to stop acting like children throwing their toys of the the pram and stop blaming all and sundry around when things are not going their way. But just get on with it and stop disrespecting their coaches/managers as we know as it has happened before. Scully seems like a no nonsense kind of fella so hopefully he can put a few in their place if needs be. If we can put in a good performance in the championship then this ropey league showing will be soon forgotten.

deisebhoy17

Good points. With Cashin being part of the backroom team which was ousted by Justin he must have had a sence of Deja Vu when the players held a meeting on Monday night and been thinking that hes not going to be waiting around to be undermined again.

lovelypoint

Fentdog84 wrote: »

If we can put in a good performance in the championship then this ropey league showing will be soon forgotten.

No offence, but regardless of whether we turn it around in the championship, it will not be so easy to forget we are in 1B next year unless we do something about it now. Panic serves no one, but right now we should be at battle stations, as relegation would be a blow to any sort of hopes we have.

Going straight into a quarter final, after being a Munster finalist, puts a nice gloss on our year for the last few years, but if we were to drop down to 1B, it would take time to get up to speed between 2nd tier league opposition and championship every year. This pretty much means we can stop taking Munster finals and AI quarter finals for granted, and get used to scraping it out against opposition in 1B, and hope we don't get scalped in the qualifiers.

This is what relegation really means, and with some quality opposition down in 1B, I wouldn't be taking promotion for granted either, especially with the sort of lethargic starts we seem to make in the league.

lovelypoint

deisebhoy17 wrote: »

Good points. With Cashin being part of the backroom team which was ousted by Justin he must have had a sence of Deja Vu when the players held a meeting on Monday night and been thinking that hes not going to be waiting around to be undermined again.

I think also, with regard to the questions over the training and fitness raised by the players, perhaps Cashin felt like part of the blame was being shifted towards him, seeing as he would have the strongest hurling pedigree of the management team.

mccarthy37

daddydick wrote: »

In fairness any minor team with Tennyson, PJ Delaney, Michael Rice, Richie Power, Willie O Dwyer, Cha, Eoin Reid etc etc should be winning an All Ireland minor no matter who the manager is!! It doesn't exactly take Jose Mourinho to come in to win things with a team like that so I wouldnt be basing Cashin on doing that job 10 years ago

Fair point but it would make you wonder with all that has been won by Waterford college's sides and with all this young talent coming through in the last few years where are the All Ireland's to show for it . For the last ten years I have seen some of the best minor games that have been played in our county and some great players have come through to senior level but still not much to show for it. Sport in general can be very unforgiving and it pains me to say that outside of our county we are considered underachievers. I would be thrilled if finally we made a breakthrough, you have to win at underage to achieve success at senior level and that's what we should be focusing on now. I still think a win on Sunday is very important for morale and go for a win against Dublin to try and retain our division 1A status. All is not lost yet but I'M feeling a bit jittery.

noiniho

Under Davy in the league we always seemed competitive, there was many games when we were very fair from full strength. Alot of players were tried but in those games we always gave a good account of ourselves and always finished those games stronger then we started. On paper the teams we have put out so far are just as strong as some of those teams of the last few years.

Why are the players including fringe players not competing like they were under Davy? Why are not only finishing with a whimper but not coming out for the second half?

My theory and the optimist in me had hoped it was because Davy had us peaking fitness wise too early and with flanagan on board that the aim was to have our fitness peaking later in the year.

Like Kerry have done for years in football under flanagan, Kerry in the munster championship early in the year are a completely different team to later in the year, they peaked for the all irleand series and obviously as Flanagan was reputed to be central to this approach I presumed a similiar approach was being put forward with the hurlers, having them peaking for the munster championship as opposed to be flying for the league and not being able to maintain that level of conditioning for the whole season.

Because of this theory I was given the players and the new management the benifit of the doubt, but the events of this week have me very worried...

hardybuck

I'm really disappointed by the start that this management group has made. When they were appointed I thought they had enough experience between them to take us on a notch.

I was particularly enthused by the appointment of Flanagan. I've experienced his training before personally, and he commands huge respect in Kerry for transforming their footballers and bringing them into the new era of physicality in the aftermath of their famous drubbing by Tyrone in the mid 00's.

I felt that Waterford needed a similar transformation as Kilkenny introduced a new level of football level physicality to hurling, which has since been matched by Dublin and Tipp. The Waterford teams in the last couple of years have been extremely light, and even if the skill levels of these players might be up to scrath they'll continue to be blown off the field unless something changes.

So, is it a case that Flanagan isn't committed fully to this project as he is based in Tralee?

Even with Brother Ryan, he seemed to have arrived with a fair bit of experience built up, albeit a lot of it with weaker counties.

What strikes me about Michael Ryan so far in how he comes across in the media, is that he is just a little bit unprofessional. I get the sense that he is a little old fashioned and behind the times. While that might be totally unfair to the man, you can bet that the players will be sitting in a dressing room thinking the very same thing and first impressions count as they say.

A modern day intercounty manager now needs to be a fairly savvy managing director of an organisation. He needs to be able to manage coaches, players, the county board and the media. Compared to the new breed of Anthony Daly, Liam Sheedy, Anthony Cunningham, Pat Gilroy and even Jason Ryan etc., our management team just looks behind the times the more I see of it.

While we might criticise the players for not knuckling down, most of these guys only get a very short window to achieve their goals these days. The level of commitment keeps going up, and the cushy jobs of previous eras which kept many of them ticking over are long gone. Great demands are placed upon them, so they are right to demand a great deal from management.

hardybuck

noiniho wrote: »

Under Davy in the league we always seemed competitive, there was many games when we were very fair from full strength. Alot of players were tried but in those games we always gave a good account of ourselves and always finished those games stronger then we started. On paper the teams we have put out so far are just as strong as some of those teams of the last few years.

Why are the players including fringe players not competing like they were under Davy? Why are not only finishing with a whimper but not coming out for the second half?

My theory and the optimist in me had hoped it was because Davy had us peaking fitness wise too early and with flanagan on board that the aim was to have our fitness peaking later in the year.

Like Kerry have done for years in football under flanagan, Kerry in the munster championship early in the year are a completely different team to later in the year, they peaked for the all irleand series and obviously as Flanagan was reputed to be central to this approach I presumed a similiar approach was being put forward with the hurlers, having them peaking for the munster championship as opposed to be flying for the league and not being able to maintain that level of conditioning for the whole season.

Because of this theory I was given the players and the new management the benifit of the doubt, but the events of this week have me very worried...

The difference between Kerry and Waterford was that in a lot of years Kerry have won an All Ireland the previous September. A lot of players deserve a break after that, and do so. A Kerry team doesn't find themselves in Division 2 of the league too often though - their supporters wouldn't tolerate it.

Also with Kerry, they know they'll get a handy run through the Munster Championship and are normally in the All Ireland quarter final by default. While in a way the hurling championship being so small means that a team has to be pretty awful not to reach the last eight, Waterford don't have much chance of winning an All Ireland and the Munster remains a priority.

egpower

How did it come to pass that we are here at the end of March saying that Michael Ryan is this or he is that. FFs we all know him and what he brings / doesn't bring. The board (and the senior players - who should have a consultative input in my view) knew what they were getting - it's not like he was an unknown quantity.
People are too quick to blame the blazers but in this case, it (the steaming pile of fly-infested horse manure that is our current form/confidence) rests at the board's door.

hardybuck

egpower wrote: »

How did it come to pass that we are here at the end of March saying that Michael Ryan is this or he is that. FFs we all know him and what he brings / doesn't bring. The board (and the senior players - who should have a consultative input in my view) knew what they were getting - it's not like he was an unknown quantity.
People are too quick to blame the blazers but in this case, it (the steaming pile of fly-infested horse manure that is our current form/confidence) rests at the board's door.

Personally, I had some optimism after watching that fantastic DLS team do so well and play really good hurling in the process. I know people here will say that he hadn't a whole lot to do with that, but I don't know the make-up of the DLS situation. I also thought that he had built a decent backroom to guide him through. Obviously this doesn't seem to be the case.

Mountainlad

deisebhoy17 wrote: »

ah will u lighten up!!!

were all passionate about this and its just a bit of fun at the end of the day. Resorting to name calling over the web is a bit pitiful... Im sure youyll agree when youve calmed down. You do make some very valid points but you seem to have lost the plot today...

Yeah it was OTT, I apologise for that.

My views don't change on what I argued though, and would appreciate you actually taking me up on something I say rather than telling me where I'm from in attempt to belittle some of what I say.

lovelypoint

Ken in then, as per RTE. Think it could be a shrewd appointment, and perhaps an ideal bridge to keep things together at this point.

mccarthy37

Well then are we traveling to Galway with any hope or can we pull a surprise out of the lucky bag. Nicky gone Ken in hope it works out for Ken could be sticking his head in a hornets nest. Of all the former players Ken has great leadership qualities and was one of our all time greatest players but this is a different game altogether Sunday really wont tell us anything but a win would be a great start. What must Tony Browne be thinking now almost 39 and is still one of the best players on the panel at the moment, every other team in the league has younger members making great headway so far, Sunday should be a day when some of our bright young hopes make a big impression. Maybe Ken could be the man to inspire confidence because right we need it badly. For everybody concerned lets hope that's the case.

deisebhoy17

daddydick wrote: »

In fairness any minor team with Tennyson, PJ Delaney, Michael Rice, Richie Power, Willie O Dwyer, Cha, Eoin Reid etc etc should be winning an All Ireland minor no matter who the manager is!! It doesn't exactly take Jose Mourinho to come in to win things with a team like that

Good point. Brian Cody has been getting away with murder lol

deisebhoy17

mccarthy37 wrote: »

Well then are we traveling to Galway with any hope or can we pull a surprise out of the lucky bag. Nicky gone Ken in hope it works out for Ken could be sticking his head in a hornets nest. Of all the former players Ken has great leadership qualities and was one of our all time greatest players but this is a different game altogether Sunday really wont tell us anything but a win would be a great start. What must Tony Browne be thinking now almost 39 and is still one of the best players on the panel at the moment, every other team in the league has younger members making great headway so far, Sunday should be a day when some of our bright young hopes make a big impression. Maybe Ken could be the man to inspire confidence because right we need it badly. For everybody concerned lets hope that's the case.

Ken coming in can only be a positive. Whatever the circumstances or what the future holds, Ken is a legend and an unbelievably positive influence on everyone around him. Its exactly the shot in the arm we need at the moment because to be quite frank its been a miserable few months

Deise Doodler

Hope it works out for Ken but cant help but feel its a bit early for him to be involved on this level, Ken has played with most of the players on the panel and will be faced with some hard decisions ref friends, family and team selection, no doubt that he will comand huge respect (which obviously is something that the rest of the managment do have from panel) but am sure it will be hard for him on a personal level, still best of luck Ken for ken for all involved,

As for Phisical fitness and Pat Flanagan, Pat is highly rated throughout the country, Davy went looking for him last year and heard Declan Ryan (Tipp)was sniffing this year, but Flanagan can only set the programme, It seems to me that there was such a lack of harmony in the camp that no matter what programme the players were on they were not giving 100%
Also lack of fitness would account for players running out of steam half way through Games ( early Justin years) but we never hurled with fluency even in the first twenty min in any of our games, and before any points at Killkenny or the ucc game,Ucc had a only half arsed team out for first half, and killkeny just did'nt motor for the first half

I dont think we are to far off fitness if we can get our heads right,

Cake Man

The good thing about Ken coming in is that he'll act as a kind of link between management and the players IMO. In the last few weeks, it seemed to me that management and players have been two separate camps that weren't united so hopefully Ken can act as the man to bridge that gap.

Mountainlad

One negative would be the possibility he'd cotinue the trend of picking his brother...

hurler on de ditch

deisebhoy17 wrote: »

Good point. Brian Cody has been getting away with murder lol

jesus deiseboy brace yourself ,i disagree with ya there ,cody is a masterclass in management ,kk were in a really bad place before he arrived ,he is a class act, and how very few managers have actually failed to put his ideals and work ethic into place is beyond me,[kevin sheedy being the exception],2008 all ireland when asked on the monday night of the homecoming why he only made 2 subs [1 of those enforced,the other was mc garry in goal]he actually has a heart,he replied with the classic cody reply ,"its not easy to win an all ireland and i picked 15 fellas who i knew could do it ,and they were so why change it ,walsh cup final this year he started 10 of last years AI final team and brought on another 3 that featured ,while we were trying lads,first things first if you enter a competition put your strongest 15 out no trying lads they will get their chance when they deserve it ,not just give them a game because you brought them onto the panel, if their on the panel you already know what their capable of and if you trust them enough play them when its their time not because you need to play them to justify to yourself why there here in the first place ,just typed this with one finger and i see your lol at the end of your post ,anyway there you go cody the man with real balls

lovelypoint

Mountainlad wrote: »

One negative would be the possibility he'd cotinue the trend of picking his brother...

Bit of a low blow, if Eoin deserves to start he should, but on performances to date, he has done nothing to convince me, or others I imagine, that he has more to offer than any other of a myriad of players.

Mountainlad

lovelypoint wrote: »

Bit of a low blow, if Eoin deserves to start he should, but on performances to date, he has done nothing to convince me, or others I imagine, that he has more to offer than any other of a myriad of players.

It wasn't intended as such. I just don't think he's good enough anymore. No shame in that. Just hoping that the fact that his brother is on the team doesn't influence his selection decisions. I don't mean it in a nasty way, and I know it's a tough thing for anyone to have to do, but when you're in that position the team must come first.


Happy with the appointment though.

Fentdog84

Mountainlad wrote: »

It wasn't intended as such. I just don't think he's good enough anymore. No shame in that. Just hoping that the fact that his brother is on the team doesn't influence his selection decisions. I don't mean it in a nasty way, and I know it's a tough thing for anyone to have to do, but when you're in that position the team must come first.


Happy with the appointment though.

Dont see that being an issue, tbh. Anyway, Ken wont be picking the team. He will have an input but Scully has the final say.

lovelypoint

Mountainlad wrote: »

It wasn't intended as such. I just don't think he's good enough anymore. No shame in that. Just hoping that the fact that his brother is on the team doesn't influence his selection decisions. I don't mean it in a nasty way, and I know it's a tough thing for anyone to have to do, but when you're in that position the team must come first.


Happy with the appointment though.

Agree with you, don't think Eoin is a better prospect than any of the other players coming through.

Yes, I have no doubt it could be quite tricky for Ken, if there are not clearly drawn lines of responsibility, and to be honest for everyones sake, I hope all hopes are not pinned on just Ken turning it around.

To be honest, I think a lot will depend on Ken's exact role. As just a selector, I fear he could be out of his depth, but as say a forwards coach, a motivating presence, and a link between the dressing room and management, I think it could work out very well.

Funfair

Mountainlad wrote: »

So a selector left, and you think that a coach coming in is going to assume the role of the manager as a result? Baffling logic.

I think your getting mixed up yourself.. a selector Coach left and a coach former player with no coaching skills what so ever coming in.

Ken was a great player but never coached a team,not even an U12's team and should not have got Cashin's job on that basis.

If you want Ken on board fine but not as 2nd in command, bring him in as hurley carrier and let him learn about coaching like every other coach.

Now before ye all get excited I still say Ken was only 2nd to Flynn as the greatest player to play for Waterford in the last 30 years or so but still knows sweet f all about coaching.

Also I can't see the more senior players like Mullane or Kelly taking grief off Ken.. they'll tell him where to go if he starts roaring and shouting at them..

Imagine a guy working with you, say in an office for argument sake and both of ye drank, ate slept in rooms together etc.. for 10 years, suddenly he gets a management job and starts giving you grief about your ability etc. you would tell him to go F*** himself very swiftly.. human nature!

I'm sorry guys I hope I'm completely wrong but I can't help feeling this is going to go pear shaped!

Fentdog84

what is it with the muppetry on this thread..Ken has spent the last 15 years breaking his back for waterford hurling, I think he is more qualified than anyone and is he/did he not work as a hurling coach around schools etc?

hurler on de ditch

Funfair wrote: »

I think your getting mixed up yourself.. a selector Coach left and a coach former player with no coaching skills what so ever coming in.

Ken was a great player but never coached a team,not even an U12's team and should not have got Cashin's job on that basis.

If you want Ken on board fine but not as 2nd in command, bring him in as hurley carrier and let him learn about coaching like every other coach.

Now before ye all get excited I still say Ken was only 2nd to Flynn as the greatest player to play for Waterford in the last 30 years or so but still knows sweet f all about coaching.

Also I can't see the more senior players like Mullane or Kelly taking grief off Ken.. they'll tell him where to go if he starts roaring and shouting at them..

Imagine a guy working with you, say in an office for argument sake and both of ye drank, ate slept in rooms together etc.. for 10 years, suddenly he gets a management job and starts giving you grief about your ability etc. you would tell him to go F*** himself very swiftly.. human nature!

I'm sorry guys I hope I'm completely wrong but I can't help feeling this is going to go pear shaped!

hope your wrong but i would agree with alot of things you said ,i think he should have started with the tony forristal or even sonny walsh teams ,

Funfair

Fentdog84 wrote: »

what is it with the muppetry on this thread..Ken has spent the last 15 years breaking his back for waterford hurling, I think he is more qualified than anyone and is he/did he not work as a hurling coach around schools etc?

News to me about the schools and I'd be suprised if it were true..

Goes to show that you know nothing about coaching either if you think being a great player qualifys you as a coach/manager..

Ask Roy Keane he'll tell you all about it..

Fentdog84

Funfair wrote: »

News to me about the schools and I'd be suprised if it were true..

Goes to show that you know nothing about coaching either if you think being a great player qualifys you as a coach/manager..

Ask Roy Keane he'll tell you all about it..

Roy Keane? Who that? Is he an Aussie rules footballer or something?