Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 2011-2012

Mountainlad

solarith wrote: »

?

Facts being facts, what's your point?

Who said much dissatitisfaction with the county board...and what is the dissatisfaction with? Is it Cashin's resignation or Ken's appointment, or something else? Presuming that these are all facts by the way, which has not been confirmed, though I think Tiernan is a pretty reliable source.

Mountainlad

hardybuck wrote: »

Well I'd consider on the field to be his performance on the line.

I've seen him with his arms folded a few times, but wouldn't really criticise him for that as I tend to spend most of my time watching the match, and there's evidence of a reaction last Sunday with the positional changes made, so I don't think he spends all his time like that.

Are there people here suggesting that Nicky Cashin leaving is a sign of Michael Ryan not knowing what he's doing?

solarith

Mountainlad wrote: »

Who said much dissatitisfaction with the county board...and what is the dissatisfaction with? Is it Cashin's resignation or Ken's appointment, or something else? Presuming that these are all facts by the way, which has not been confirmed, though I think Tiernan is a pretty reliable source.

OK, point taken about 'dissatisfaction', could be anything, or made up. Impossible to confirm.

Tiernan contacted Tom Cunningham who confirmed the resignation. Also Diarmuid O Flynn was the one to mention Ken McGrath.

IMO, knowing Ken was a great player, I can't see him bringing anything to the coaching side of things. Or anything.

solarith

I'm quite sure hardybuck means his selection, etc. Not sure if you're trolling or just...

Regardless, would it be a coincidence with Kelly/Mullane returning and Cashin leaving?

hardybuck

Mountainlad wrote: »

I've seen him with his arms folded a few times, but wouldn't really criticise him for that as I tend to spend most of my time watching the match, and there's evidence of a reaction last Sunday with the positional changes made, so I don't think he spends all his time like that.

Are there people here suggesting that Nicky Cashin leaving is a sign of Michael Ryan not knowing what he's doing?

Ah well I'm not expecting him to be ranting and raving. Quite the opposite - I would appreciate a calm presence. However, I've been fairly unhappy with many of his selections, his positional and personnel changes, and the tactics he employs. Obviously plenty of that is done before match day, but a lot can be done during the game.

I think Cashin possibly leaving is a sign of the unrest within the camp. Ultimately Ryan is head of that organisation.

Mountainlad

solarith wrote: »

I'm quite sure hardybuck means his selection, etc. Not sure if you're trolling or just...

Regardless, would it be a coincidence with Kelly/Mullane returning and Cashin leaving?

I doubt that he does to be honest, because that would not be an action he's taken during the course of a game, which is what I assume he means by 'on the field', otherwise the comment doesn't make any sense at all. Not trolling.

I really do doubt that to be honest. I can't see that Mullane coming back would make someone leave unless they're crazy, and it'd suprise me with Kelly because if he really was passionate about being involved with Waterford he wouldn't lose the plot over one player. Maybe it's a contributing factor, but I dunno.

mccarthy37

Heard all this talk at the weekend from people that attend county board meetings and I just put it down to all this loose talk that's doing the rounds lately. I think we should wait for a statement from the county board as all these rumour's are doing a lot of damage to us outside the county. I really hope they are only urban myth's because if they are true we have taken a step back to the mid '80s'. Hard to feel confident about the year ahead don't mind next Sunday. Who would want to be a Waterford manager.

Mountainlad

hardybuck wrote: »

I think Cashin possibly leaving is a sign of the unrest within the camp. Ultimately Ryan is head of that organisation.

Possibly, but that doesn't mean we should all jump to that conclusion. Unfortunately, it already seems inevitable that that will indeed be what happens.

There is the possiblity that maybe Cashin wasn't performing his role properly, and that he was asked to leave.

Possiblity is the important word in both scenarios.

Mountainlad

mccarthy37 wrote: »

Heard all this talk at the weekend from people that attend county board meetings and I just put it down to all this loose talk that's doing the rounds lately. I think we should wait for a statement from the county board as all these rumour's are doing a lot of damage to us outside the county. I really hope they are only urban myth's because if they are true we have taken a step back to the mid '80s'. Hard to feel confident about the year ahead don't mind next Sunday. Who would want to be a Waterford manager.

What rumours exactly? Ken coming in, and Cashin leaving? Why would it be a step back to the mid 80s?

hardybuck

Mountainlad wrote: »

Possibly, but that doesn't mean we should all jump to that conclusion. Unfortunately, it already seems inevitable that that will indeed be what happens.

There is the possiblity that maybe Cashin wasn't performing his role properly, and that he was asked to leave.

Possiblity is the important word in both scenarios.

Yeah very hard to speculate at this point. Could be disagreement about selections, unhappy with the players response to his methods, unhappy with county board, we'll have to wait and see.

What was Cashin's role anyway?

Mountainlad

hardybuck wrote: »

Yeah very hard to speculate at this point. Could be disagreement about selections, unhappy with the players response to his methods, unhappy with county board, we'll have to wait and see.

What was Cashin's role anyway?

Dunno to be honest. Thought he would be involved as a coach to a certain extent, and with Ken coming in as he goes that might give that theory weight. Anytime training has been mentioned, however, seems to be Brother Ryan who would be doing the skills coaching. Maybe they had two.

mccarthy37

Mountainlad wrote: »

What rumours exactly? Ken coming in, and Cashin leaving? Why would it be a step back to the mid 80s?

All the match's we won then do you remember. I'm still hoping that its not true about Nicky otherwise we are going backwards.

Mountainlad

mccarthy37 wrote: »

All the match's we won then do you remember. I'm still hoping that its not true about Nicky otherwise we are going backwards.

I understood what you meant when you said going back to the mid 80s, I wasn't alive at the time, but I know what you mean. I was wondering what prompted the comment. You have a lot of faith in Cashin obviously, I'm not really in a position to comment on that because I actually know little enough about him. What I would say, though I know very little about his credentials as a coach, Ken is a well respected figure amongst the members of this team and his arrival may help boost morale a little and if there is any man management issues and communication difficulties between players and management, can may be the go to guy who can speak on behalf of both parties.

suitcasepink

Mountainlad wrote: »

I understood what you meant when you said going back to the mid 80s, I wasn't alive at the time, but I know what you mean. I was wondering what prompted the comment. You have a lot of faith in Cashin obviously, I'm not really in a position to comment on that because I actually know little enough about him. What I would say, though I know very little about his credentials as a coach, Ken is a well respected figure amongst the members of this team and his arrival may help boost morale a little and if there is any man management issues and communication difficulties between players and management, can may be the go to guy who can speak on behalf of both parties.

I assume he means more about the discontentment in the camp, questionable managers and undisciplined players?
Something just seems to go wrong when Waterford people manage Waterford, be it lack of respect or just no confidence..

solarith

deise_girl wrote: »

I assume he means more about the discontentment in the camp, questionable managers and undisciplined players?
Something just seems to go wrong when Waterford people manage Waterford, be it lack of respect or just no confidence..

I suppose we don't have many 'legends' or highly respected former players who are capable of being managers, who instantly have the respect of everyone else. Many one or the others, but not sure who ticks both boxes. I would consider Hartley in this area, though. Ken may be a legend but I don't think he could ever be a manager.

deisebhoy17

solarith wrote: »

Not sure if you're trolling or just...

Mountainlad is not trolling he just cannot fathom any criticism of Michael Ryan whatsoever or of anyone from that general vicinity, for reasons unknown :rolleyes:...

When Michael Ryan went for the interview it was widely known that part of his plan was that hed be bringing Nicky Cashin in with him, in attempt to quell the argument that while Ryan himself was not really of a huge hurling pedigree, hed be bringing someone with him that was. But as Cashin had been selector for a good number of years under Justin and a lot of the panel would have been there for those years, was this really a fresh idea or a fresh face? Cashin and Ryan have been good friends since they were selectors under Justin in 07 and 08 (when they were part of the management team which was given a vote of no confidence by many of the current crop of players and subsequently ousted) so youd wonder was it the greatest idea from ryan or was it just a handy solution to increase his credentials for getting the job.

Either way we dont know the circumstances yet, but the bottom line is it dosent leave us in a great place. If the rumours of Ken McGrath coming in are true, then where does that leave ryan? Whos brining in Ken is it ryan or the co. board? Cashin was ryans man that was part of the deal when he was getting the job but if Ken is going training the team does this undermine ryans position? Ken coming in would be a popular decision amongst the players no doubt but once again were in turmoil and were in the news for all the wrong reasons

Mountainlad

solarith wrote: »

I suppose we don't have many 'legends' or highly respected former players who are capable of being managers, who instantly have the respect of everyone else. Many one or the others, but not sure who ticks both boxes. I would consider Hartley in this area, though. Ken may be a legend but I don't think he could ever be a manager.

But he's not manager, he's coming into help. We'll see how it pans out but I for one am happy to see Ken McGrath involved with Waterford, it's where he belongs!

deisebhoy17 wrote: »

Mountainlad is not trolling he just cannot fathom any criticism of Michael Ryan whatsoever or of anyone from that general vicinity, for reasons unknown :rolleyes:...

When Michael Ryan went for the interview it was widely known that part of his plan was that hed be bringing Nicky Cashin in with him, in attempt to quell the argument that while Ryan himself was not really of a huge hurling pedigree, hed be bringing someone with him that was. But as Cashin had been selector for a good number of years under Justin and a lot of the panel would have been there for those years, was this really a fresh idea or a fresh face? Cashin and Ryan have been good friends since they were selectors under Justin in 07 and 08 (when they were part of the management team which was given a vote of no confidence by many of the current crop of players and subsequently ousted) so youd wonder was it the greatest idea from ryan or was it just a handy solution to increase his credentials for getting the job.

Either way we dont know the circumstances yet, but the bottom line is it dosent leave us in a great place. If the rumours of Ken McGrath coming in are true, then where does that leave ryan? Whos brining in Ken is it ryan or the co. board? Cashin was ryans man that was part of the deal when he was getting the job but if Ken is going training the team does this undermine ryans position? Ken coming in would be a popular decision amongst the players no doubt but once again were in turmoil and were in the news for all the wrong reasons

So a selector left, and you think that a coach coming in is going to assume the role of the manager as a result? Baffling logic.

I've criticised Michael Ryan on some accounts, however unlike some I'm level headed enough to know that people deserve a chance to show what they can do, and three months isn't much of a chance now is it? I'm also adamant that a change in management at this stage of the year would be effectively writing off this year, and could have disastrous connations for Waterford Hurling in 2012. The decision was made in Novemeber (or October), and it has to be held up.

Deisebhoy, you're a different class of muppet if you think, having supported Waterford since I was 8 and attended everything from Championship to league to challenge to club championship games, that blind parochial loyalty is what is fuelling the sentiment behind my posts. Thank god I am here, as we need somebody to provide some sort of balance here or else a few people here would have f*ckin petition launched to oust Ryan. Who in their right mind would take the job then?

The blue blaa

When the players turned up for training Monday Night one of the more experienced lads (Nice to be Nice wont mention who) said to Michael Ryan he thought it would be a good idea if they had a meeting first,because there was a few things needed to be discussed. So a meeting was called and the players expressed their concern as to the standard of training and all players agreed that their should be a defensive hurling coach and an attacking hurling coach. Ken's name was put forward as a hurling coach for the forwards. Nicky Cashin was supposedly a little emotional about this and said the players need to stand up and take the blame and that it was Typical Waterford blaming the coaches just like they got rid of Justin. The meeting lasted over an hour an a half so they didnt train until following night, an had a great session. Now i'm not saying this was the reason why Nicky left i was baffled when i heard he stepped down today i'm sure we'l hear more as week goes on, Nicky is a great coach, he's old style but effective,i wish him well.

IMHO- I dont think personally anyone incl. Ken or Fergal will be interested in joining ranks for the simple reason, at the moment it's a sinking ship..

Hopefully Ken or/and Fergal would be interested in coming onboard they'd certainly make a difference however big or small..
Also to the people that say Ken wouldnt make a good coach/selector/Manager lads this guy has played top level since 1996 and is one of the all time greats in my eyes. He has worked under Ger McCarthy,Justin McCarthy,Davy Fitz these men ALL contributed a lot to our hurling so in my eyes if he learned nothing from at least one of those i'l eat me socks:p

deisebhoy17

Mountainlad wrote: »

So a selector left, and you think that a coach coming in is going to assume the role of the manager as a result? Baffling logic.

You know damn well thats not what im saying! One of the big factors in favour of Ryan getting the job was that he had Cashin as his right hand man so my argument is where does that leave him now? A new trainer coming in is basically saying that his training methods arent deemed good enough, thats all.

Am I a muppet because you disagree with my opinion or because you know Ive picked up on your bias towards Nire/Ballymac??? Its not about Michael Ryan your allegiance was apparant going way back. Anything negative mentioned about that area you throw a tantrum...... hence above

Mountainlad

deisebhoy17 wrote: »

You know damn well thats not what im saying! One of the big factors in favour of Ryan getting the job was that he had Cashin as his right hand man so my argument is where does that leave him now? A new trainer coming in is basically saying that his training methods arent deemed good enough, thats all.

Am I a muppet because you disagree with my opinion or because you know Im picked up on your bias towards Nire/Ballymac??? Its not about Michael Ryan your allegiance was apparant going way back. Anything negative mentioned about that area you throw a tantrum...... hence above

Listen Sherlock, you've made it farily apparent over the last while what you think you know, I'm really getting tired of telling you you're wrong at this stage. Maybe I should just not talk about anybody from that area anymore, getting sick of this.

Last year, I defended Clinton Hennessey and someone asked was I his son.

Ryan was never training the team. Who said that he didn't bring in Ken? I don't know what happened, but neither do you. Your like a tabloid journalist the way you're putting 2 and 2 together before any facts have been revealed.

So I'll answer the stupid question you keep asking me with one of my own...is the reason you keep trying to devalue my arguments by accusing me of parochialism because you disagree with me...or are you just a muppet?

mccarthy37

Mountainlad wrote: »

I understood what you meant when you said going back to the mid 80s, I wasn't alive at the time, but I know what you mean. I was wondering what prompted the comment. You have a lot of faith in Cashin obviously, I'm not really in a position to comment on that because I actually know little enough about him. What I would say, though I know very little about his credentials as a coach, Ken is a well respected figure amongst the members of this team and his arrival may help boost morale a little and if there is any man management issues and communication difficulties between players and management, can may be the go to guy who can speak on behalf of both parties.

Nothing to do with any individual but remember the old saying united we stand divided we fall. Ken McGrath is a legend and will always be in my book but did you know Nicky Cashin was the only man outside of Kilkenny to win a minor All Ireland with a Kilkenny team as manager. That's a good recommendation in my book. Three games in and there seems to be trouble in the camp that's all I'm saying the papers will have a field day out of this.Here we are going on about whats going on between management and nobody has mentioned the game on Sunday against Galway what must they be thinking.:mad:

mccarthy37

deise_girl wrote: »

I assume he means more about the discontentment in the camp, questionable managers and undisciplined players?
Something just seems to go wrong when Waterford people manage Waterford, be it lack of respect or just no confidence..

Well understood

hurler on de ditch

Mountainlad wrote: »

Listen Sherlock, you've made it farily apparent over the last while what you think you know, I'm really getting tired of telling you you're wrong at this stage. Maybe I should just not talk about anybody from that area anymore, getting sick of this.

Last year, I defended Clinton Hennessey and someone asked was I his son.

Ryan was never training the team. Who said that he didn't bring in Ken? I don't know what happened, but neither do you. Your like a tabloid journalist the way you're putting 2 and 2 together before any facts have been revealed.

So I'll answer the stupid question you keep asking me with one of my own...is the reason you keep trying to devalue my arguments by accusing me of parochialism because you disagree with me...or are you just a muppet?

that was me i asked were you his son .jesus boy anyone who dose not agree with you is either a muppet or a troll,did you say you were not even born in the 80,s ,its time you grew up ,your not davy fitz are ya ?

mccarthy37

It doesn't make a difference what age a supporter is but name calling on this site is getting a bit sad. I stopped going to matches in the '80s' because on the way home there was always a row so look keep the comments about future matches. I know things don't look good tonight so I just hope the team are focused on next Sunday or else we are on a slippery slope down to division 1B and that is not going forward.

Mountainlad

hurler on de ditch wrote: »

that was me i asked were you his son .jesus boy anyone who dose not agree with you is either a muppet or a troll,did you say you were not even born in the 80,s ,its time you grew up ,your not davy fitz are ya ?

How many times have you accused people of being Davy Fitz?

I'm not Clinton Hennessey's son, though to be fair to you that was actually a funny suggestion.

Lots of people disagree with me, most of them I discuss or argue with in an attempt to:

A) Show them where I'm coming from
See where they're coming from and why I might actually be wrong, which I can be

Yes I wasn't born in the 80's, what's your point? Am I too young to post here, is that what you're suggesting?

I have only called one person a muppet, and you a troll. That's hardly everybody that disagrees with me!

solarith

Oh, ffs. hurler on de ditch - you often raise some good points but they are pretty much overshadowed by your need for arguing and trolling. Maybe you're Eoin Kelly ? ;D

chinguetti

To get back on track, reading the blue baa's post it appears to me that the players are calling the shots and saying what kind of coaches they want.

Thats all well and good but if the manager isn't managing (and from his comments after last Sunday, he was washing his hands of the fitness concerns), trouble is going to happen as the players look to have no faith in him or his team. The year might be gone before they know it.

lovelypoint

Geez, what a busy few hours, what with Nicky Cashin resigning, pandemonium seems to have ensued.

Personally, hearing plenty of rumour about Cashin's lack of involvement in the coaching side of things, made me wonder why he was there, aside as perhaps Michael Ryan's mate to back him up. No disrespect to Cashin, as he seems to have some genuine hurling credentials outside of Waterford, but whenever he seems to be involved with Waterford, I am just not sure what he brings. Seems to have been a yes man for Justin, and now a yes man for Ryan, harsh perhaps, but just the way it might seem to someone looking in.

Lot of rumour flying around, but if it is true the players requested a forwards coach, and a defensive coach, I say fair play, as that is what I feel we have been lacking big time, with no direction or game plan in either area. I'm not sure Ken may be the answer to the coaching problem, but as a bridging force, to perhaps keep it all together, so without everything crashing down, it may just be the perfect move, if it is true.

Two things worry me a lot though. Firstly, that little or no mention of the fact we have a do or die game against Galway on Sunday has been made, is extremely worrying. We need to focus on our priorities here, even if the wheels are coming off. All this will be old news next year, with a new management team in place, but relegation and life in 1B will not be so easily ignored. Quite simply we need to circle the wagons, and do everything we can right now, to ensure survival in 1A.

Secondly, the fact that the county board, are taking 2 days to address this issue, and all the fallout created by it, is extremely worrying. When the house is burning down, you don't say, see you in two days. Seriously, where is the sense of urgency here. Phonecalls, impromptu meetings, and emergency measures should be being taken as we speak. This is the time for a bit of balls and a bit of leadership from our county board, and ultimately pursuing the best options for our present situation, right now.

I fear for how all these events may affect us on Sunday, and only hoping it can galvanise us like never before.

daddydick

mccarthy37 wrote: »

did you know Nicky Cashin was the only man outside of Kilkenny to win a minor All Ireland with a Kilkenny team as manager. That's a good recommendation in my book.

In fairness any minor team with Tennyson, PJ Delaney, Michael Rice, Richie Power, Willie O Dwyer, Cha, Eoin Reid etc etc should be winning an All Ireland minor no matter who the manager is!! It doesn't exactly take Jose Mourinho to come in to win things with a team like that so I wouldnt be basing Cashin on doing that job 10 years ago

liogairmhordain

looks like a very messy situation is developing with various unresolved issues from june 2008 coming into play.
however all is not lost yet. the clocks havent even gone forward yet. fellas are still training under lights.
for what its worth i don't think sunday's game matters that much. there's very little chance of waterford avoiding the relegation play-off. most likely we'll be playing dublin in that game on april 15th. (three weeks away)
after that game there'll be a full two months before the clare game on june 17th. championship hurling.
things haven't been great so far but michael ryan deserves to be have judgement on his management withheld until we see how the men in white and blue perform on that date.