Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 2011-2012

nkay1985

robopaddy wrote: »

Must be under the age of 16.

Thanks.

I thought it used to be 16 alright. Luckily he's still only 15. €5 is some price for anyone to see two phase 3 qualifiers. Fair play to the GAA.

robopaddy

nkay1985 wrote: »

Thanks.

I thought it used to be 16 alright. Luckily he's still only 15. €5 is some price for anyone to see two phase 3 qualifiers. Fair play to the GAA.

yea €15 for the terrace isnt too bad either 25 for the stand maybe a bit steep but i suppose if you get 2 good hurling games its decent value.

in fairness its Kilkennys 5th outing in 6 weeks a lot of expense for their supporters in the current climate. Its about time the GAA started copping on to these things

nkay1985

robopaddy wrote: »

yea €15 for the terrace isnt too bad either 25 for the stand maybe a bit steep but i suppose if you get 2 good hurling games its decent value.

in fairness its Kilkennys 5th outing in 6 weeks a lot of expense for their supporters in the current climate. Its about time the GAA started copping on to these things

I'd have to say I think €25 for two games is very good value but I appreciate your point about teams who have multiple outings in a short space of time but I'm not sure what could be done about that.

jacko1

assuming our halfback line keeps winning ball (if they're not on top then we're finished) they half to keep hitting Jake with low ball. He has the skill and the pace to keep turning the KK defenders

Deise Hurler

Hope the weather continues like this till saturday. A roasting hot day will suit the fresher team (Waterford) and the lighter team (Waterford).

Professey Chin

jacko1 wrote: »

assuming our halfback line keeps winning ball (if they're not on top then we're finished) they half to keep hitting Jake with low ball. He has the skill and the pace to keep turning the KK defenders

This exactly. No point sending in high balls. Theyll be plucked out of the sky. Send the ball in low, turn and run at them.

hardybuck

Chinpool wrote: »

This exactly. No point sending in high balls. Theyll be plucked out of the sky. Send the ball in low, turn and run at them.

The problem we'll have is that our backs won't get out too easy with the ball. They'll be under pressure making clearances, and will probably be pressured into delivering high ball.

Chinpool

Chinpool wrote: »

This exactly. No point sending in high balls. Theyll be plucked out of the sky. Send the ball in low, turn and run at them.

Absolutely. What Tipp have been doing in the 7 championship meetings with Kilkenny since 2002 is absolute madness. When we ran at them in 2010 and on the odd occasion last Saturday we had plenty of joy

Professey Chin

hardybuck wrote: »

The problem we'll have is that our backs won't get out too easy with the ball. They'll be under pressure making clearances, and will probably be pressured into delivering high ball.

True. KK will always pressure with 2 or 3 men but that should leave a couple players open. Its really up to us to make sure that our free men are making themselves available and that we know to look for them. Everythings easier on paper really.

Except maths. Fcuk maths

Mountainlad

Puckout strategy is key. I know SOK has taken plenty of heat over Nowlan Park, but I still don;'t agree and last Saturday was an example of what happens if you just pump it high and long into the Kilkenny backs. Bigger field with more space, so finding a man in space coming short is much more achievable. Some of our best play in that game though was from playing it shorter and working the ball which I thought we did well in the first half til the conditions worsened and we had to contest the wind as well.

We'll need to be playing it shorter and running at them. It's hard to say what we should be doing though, we could really do with Shane Walsh at full forward as it would release Maurice to play wing forward or centre (think wing would be better myself) and run them, because he does that very well. I don't see the same mazy runs coming from Shane Sully or Seamus (he'll run them alright but he'll hardly burn them with his pace). In that sense Dillon might be good at center forward as he has pace, also his movement is great and Hogan will stay in the same place, so moving around on him like Mullane did in 2011 could work well. I think we might be playing into their hands if we played him as an orthodox corner forward, and hes a bit small for wing forward.

Also, think we should be looking to play a strong midfield (would certainly have Moran in there, with either Darragh Fives or Paudie Prender for me with the other at wing back) as Kilkenny haven't been dominating there and it would if we were on top there it would give us an advantage and a channel to play the ball through consistently. We'll needd a very good gameplan, and if it starts to falter at some point be able to change it. I don't think we had any real plan B against Clare, it was pretty depressing just watching us do the same things thatr weren't working for us in the last 20 mins and ultimately concede the game.

seananigans

http://eircomsports.eircom.net/News/Hurling-Power-Rankings-10-2013.aspx


Apparently We're 8th ,the writer of this really hates us , when we win we're lucky when we lose it's to be expected.

Mountainlad

seananigans wrote: »

http://eircomsports.eircom.net/News/Hurling-Power-Rankings-10-2013.aspx


Apparently We're 8th ,the writer of this really hates us , when we win we're lucky when we lose it's to be expected.

Wouldn't be too bothered what he has to say now to be honest. Won't make much difference either way on Saturday. Kilkenny can be number one all they want, but if they lose on Saturday and are out it will make as much difference to them as it does for Tipp to be number 4. And likewise if we lose, we may as well be 15 makes no difference.

Giveitfong

Great win for Wexford Under 21s against Kilkenny tonight. For once it was a case of Kilkenny conceding the killer goal in the last minute - and an own goal at that. With several players in both teams involved in the games in Thurles on Saturday night, it was a surprise that the game was played today. There clearly was no hurry with getting it played as Munster haven't even played their semi-finals yet. Cillian Buckley and Ger Aylward, both of whom could figure against Waterford, played here (although Buckley only came on as a sub in the second half). Willie Phelan and Pádraig Walsh are also on the Kilkenny senior panel. They won't have welcomed having to play extra time here. I would have said that Waterford, on form, should be a lot stronger than Wexford whose full forward line was very weak (compared with Waterford's Jake Dillon, Jamie Barron and possibly Donie Breathnach). If we can beat Clare we would have a great chance in this championship, although the loss of Gavin O'Brien, Cormac Heffernan and likely Pauric Mahony is massive.

For Saturday's game I would play a sweeper in front of the half back line (possibly Darragh Fives) and two in midfield with a two-man front line. We should do everything to win the midfield battle (Kilkenny have been struggling here with Michael Rice failing to make any impact coming back from last year's horrific injury). Like Dublin last Sunday we should try to play the ball into the space between our half and full forwards and use pace to get out to the ball first.

Giveitfong

Very interesting preview of Sunday's game on the website http://fourmileracing.wordpress.com/


I hope they don't mind me reproducing it here:


WATERFORD V KILKENNY QUALIFIER

Waterford take on Kilkenny on Saturday night in Round 3 of the qualifiers, with the winners going on to the quarter final. A lot has been said and written about Kilkenny’s win over Tipp last weekend so I will have just a brief look back on that game. This was one of the most hyped and eagerly awaited clashes of the last 20 years or so, and in terms of excitement if not quality, it lived up to its billing. A few things struck me about the game, 1) Cummins puckouts, particularly in the second half were hit long and high down on top of the Kilkenny half back line. Had Tipp any tactics to vary their puckouts like they did in 2010 ? 2) The difference in work rate between the Kilkenny forward line and Tipp’s ( ie Shefflin winning a ball in his own half, running with it and laying off to Power, point, typical Kilkenny.) 3) Kilkenny’s poor shooting, the game would have been over with 10 minutes to go if they had taken their chances. Don’t expect it to happen two weeks in a row. 4) Lester Ryan spent the night sitting behind his own 65 helping out his half back line and cutting out the space for the Tipp half forward line. He will do the same next Saturday night. 5) Kilkenny are experts at drawing the foul, ( look at the free count 18-10) and will do so again on Saturday, but this is an area where we have become fairly good ourselves. And finally, 6) this was nothing like the great game that some analysts would have you believe, yes, it was physical and very intense but the hurling was not exceptional.

So, have Waterford any hope of upsetting the odds ( a massive 11/2 ) next Saturday night? I think we have a big chance.

OK, let’s look at the way Kilkenny will set up and how we can counteract and overcome them. The full back line will not move out the field, they will stay put even if we play a two man full forward line. The half backline will play 35 to 40 metres out from goal creating a tight defensive unit which we have become accustomed to from Kilkenny. The dominance they achieve is down to their aerial superiority and the physically intense way they play the game. Midfield, as I mentioned above, Lester Ryan will sit deep in front of the half back line with Larkin given a more attacking role. Their half forward line tend to come a little deep trying to draw out the opposition half back line therefore creating space for the full forward line who are usually inside the 13m line, or the runner coming from deep ( ie M Fennelly goal 2011 final). For the opposition puckouts their half forward line, particularly the wing forwards retreat behind the half way line to compete for the breaks, hoping again off course to pull the opposition half back line out of position creating space for the diagonal ball for the inside forwards and the runners from midfield. They have perfected this tactic over the years. To sum them up, I will give you a quote I read elsewhere which I think hits the nail on the head regarding the success of this Kilkenny team. “Kilkenny’s superiority has been based on their technical excellence, the ball winning capacity of their forwards, and the physical intensity with which they play the game. The hurlers Kilkenny produced over the past decade would have won All Irelands in any era, but the dominance they achieved was a product of the intense physicality which Cody trained into the team.


They quite simply were capable of playing the game faster and harder than anyone else. They worked harder, they hit harder, and they had the technical excellence required to take advantage when the opposition wilted. That’s why they would blow so many teams away after 20 minutes, when that first wave of tiredness hits. “

While I agree with the above quote in its entirety, Tipp in 2010 and more recently Galway and Dublin have shown that by matching that physical intensity allied to a proper game plan, they can be beaten. Can we do it ? I think we can, provided we bring that intensity to our game ( we have not done so yet this year ) allied to the right game plan and the right personnel to carry it out. Anthony Daly, Anthony Cunningham and Liam Sheedy came up with a way to beat Kilkenny so the template is already there. I will concentrate on the Galway and Dublin game plans as I believe that way is most suited to the players that we have at our disposal.

For Waterford, as I alluded to above, the team that is picked and the positioning of it must be right for any game plan to succeed. In this game, I would pick the following team allowing for injuries ( Paudie Mahoney out , Richie Foley and Shane Walsh not fully fit ).
Stephen O Keefe
Shane Fives Liam Lawlor Noel Connors
Jamie Nagle Brick Walsh Daragh Fives
Kevin Moran Paudie Pender
Shane O Sullivan Jake Dillon Seamus Pender
Jamie Baron Maurice Shanahan Brian O Sullivan

I would play our full back line close to goal, within 13 meters, and position the half backline around 35 to 40 meters out from our own goal, much like Kilkenny will, as this creates a tight defensive unit which limits the effectiveness of the diagonal ball into the FF line which Kilkenny love to use. It also cuts out the space for the KK half forwards and midfield (Larkin) to run directly at goal where they have done so much damage in the past as well as giving our FB line added protection. It does give Kilkenny more space to shoot from out the field, so, how do we deal with that? This is where I would follow the Galway and Dublin lead and make the middle third of the pitch the battleground where the match could be won and lost. Hence, the positioning of O Sullivan and Pender on the wings as these two will become more or less extra midfielders. The workrate required from Shane and Seamus will be huge as we will expect them to be constantly working from our HB line to our HF line in what will probably be very warm conditions. They will also have to drop deep in front of the our HB line for the Kilkenny puck outs. I would not expect them to last seventy minutes, but, to cut out the space for the KK HF line and midfield and to support our midfield, this work rate is necessary. Paudie Pender would be used like a sweeper in front of the HB line, picking up the breaks, supporting the player in possession and supplying our half forward line and midfield runners ( Moran and Baron, our third midfielder ) with good low ball. Paudie has experience in defence and attack for both club and county and his hurling and particularly striking is sharp and accurate which makes him ideal for this position. Slow and cumbersome striking is suicidal, especially around this area of the pitch given the manic workrate of the KK half forwards and midfield. The idea also would be that our HB line and Paudie would work the ball short whenever possible to our unmarked HF line creating scoring chances from distance or getting it in over the heads of the KK HB line to our roving 2 man FF line of Shanahan and O Sullivan. I would give Kevin Moran more freedom to attack and especially run straight at the KK defence. Remember the goal he set up for Shane Walsh in the 2009 ( I think) semi final against Kilkenny by running straight at the their defence. Moran, is in my opinion the best midfielder in the country ( Daragh Fives is a top quality half back ) and it would be an awful waste not to play him in that position. What was very important for Galway and Dublin in their wins over the Cats was bringing out an extra man around the half forward/ midfield area, Damien Hayes for Galway and Sutcliffe for Dublin. They got through a huge amount of work and got on a lot of ball creating good scoring opportunities. For Waterford I would give that task to Jamie Baron. Yes, he is young and inexperienced, but he has exceptional ability, is fast, has great awareness, good to pick out the pass and can take a score from distance. He has a great engine, is tough and not afraid of hard work and will not be fazed by the occasion. He is more than adequate to take on this role. A lot of people might be surprised to see Jake positioned at CF on the giant Hogan but no matter who we put there we will not win the aerial battle. If we learned anything from last Saturday night it is that you do not go toe to toe with this KK half backline, if we do, we will be beaten.


Simple. Jake and Jamie are two super young hurlers and fair play to the Waterford management for giving them the opportunity at such a young age although Jamie Baron should not have been taken off against Offaly. Jake Dillon is a supremely intelligent hurler for one so young ( I’m sure he learned a lot from John Mullane with his club) and has a great ability to find space and has great vision to pick out that killer pass. He can score too. I think he could pose a lot of problems for Hogan, the kind he would not be used to dealing with. Maurice Shanahan and Brian O Sullivan have been our two main scorers thus far in the Championship and I would position them close together and close to goal , like Dublin did with Paul Ryan and Dotsy. The obvious reason they should stay central and inside the 13m line is to keep the space out to the side for themselves. KK will probably keep their extra man here but the closer together and further forward Shanahan and O Sullivan stay means that the extra man for KK will have to stay central and deep which creates loads of space out to the wings for our men. One major advantage that Maurice and Brian have over Murphy, Delaney and Tyrell is speed and if we can get the right ball in they will do damage. The use of the bench, on a warm evening and with a massive work rate required, will also be critical for Waterford. With players like Shane Walsh, Dean Towmey, Eddie Barrett, Richie Foley and Ray Barry waiting in the wings, we are well equipped to deal with it.

I did not mention Soky (Stephen O Keefe) above or puckout strategies but suffice to say he will not be doing a Cummins on it and hitting long high puck outs down on top of Walsh, Hogan and Joyce. I am sure he is being well coached by Pat Moore this week

So, those are my thoughts on the game. I think that if we line out like this and be patient we can win this game. Kilkenny are certainly not the force they were a few years ago but they will still bring that physical intensity to their game and if, and only if, we match that and are tactically and mentally prepared properly, we could be celebrating a famous victory on Saturday night next.

Ando's Saggy Bottom

When was our last championship win vs Kilkenny lads?

DeiseX

Ando's Saggy Bottom wrote: »

When was our last championship win vs Kilkenny lads?

1959 :eek:

Mr Tibbs

1959 was our last win against Kilkenny and that was after a replay. Sady also its our only championship win against the cats in championship history. Best of luck to the team on Saturday and also the minor panel on Sunday. Hope we can add to our sparce collection of medals and give this county a badly needed lift.

seananigans

any idea on when we're getting the team?

doz

I expect we'll have a team tonight after training?

Anyone have any further news on injuries? Last few posts were the first I'd heard of Paudie Mahony being out though he may not have started anyway.

cleaboy boy

Team announced tonight after training. Paudie Mahony only has a slim chance, encouragingly Shane Walsh took part in a training match on Tues evening for 20 mins, he won't start but may be an option on the bench.

I can't wait to hear the team, but moreso I'm looking forward to Tom Kelly's analysis...Up the Deise!!

robopaddy

cant see too many surprises from the team that started v westmeath. dont think Paudie Mahony would be starting anyway but definetly an option from the bench. In theory youd like to see Shane Walsh introduced at some point out but youd have to question his match fitness at this stage, has very little hurling played this year. Theres no point bringing a fellah in based on past reputation if your not fit you have no business out there not least against someone like KK you'll be ate alive. We'll just have to trust managements judgement on this one

Any news on Brian O'Halloran?

Mountainlad

robopaddy wrote: »

cant see too many surprises from the team that started v westmeath. dont think Paudie Mahony would be starting anyway but definetly an option from the bench. In theory youd like to see Shane Walsh introduced at some point out but youd have to question his match fitness at this stage, has very little hurling played this year. Theres no point bringing a fellah in based on past reputation if your not fit you have no business out there not least against someone like KK you'll be ate alive. We'll just have to trust managements judgement on this one

Any news on Brian O'Halloran?

O'Halloran won't be available.

chinguetti

Whoever is picked, the management need a plan to beat the cats. No goals conceded, stop running across the goal and laying off a handpass:rolleyes:, no silly frees given away, no hail mary balls to the forwards, take the goal chances and use the full width of the pitch to turn and run at them with smart cross field ball, similar to the lead up to the second goal against Westmeath.

Tipp finished a goal down last week despite playing into their hands for the second half with daft high balls into their forwards. KK half back line can catch those all day.

We'll have to be on form in all positions and have to get a good start. Alot has to go right for Waterford to have a chance but they have a chance. A victory would be a mighty boost for the team and to hell with the 'they're young, they're inexperienced' line. 64 years is far too long not to have beaten them. Here's hoping

Oh they have to go single figures on the wides as well.

Jarjohn

1959 to 2013 is 54 years. Hope its not 64

chinguetti

Jarjohn wrote: »

1959 to 2013 is 54 years. Hope its not 64

Me bad at basic sums, not a palm reader.

robopaddy

Mountainlad wrote: »

O'Halloran won't be available.

what a pity. since minor level hes basically be injured non-stop from one problem to the next. Next year he'll be 23, not too late for him by any stretch to fulfill his potential but a lot of hurling missed between the ages of 18 and 23 those are the years you grow and develop as a hurler. Must be demoralising for the lad at this stage

Brad1234

Crowd have a huge part to play on saturday night.. I would expect waterford to complete change tack and start playing everything short... The problem is you have a huge bandwagon waterford support at any game and they will be up in arms at this cause they dont understand the logic behind it.. Some old school hurling man will throw his clothes off at this tactic and starting roaring 'will ye strike the ball long' to which the bandwagoners will think well he must know hurling so eagerly join in but his time could have been 40 years ago..

The only way to take on KK is playing the game like a Marino Waltz... Soky (if allowed) will have a huge part to play in the style.. Basically any of his six backs are targets for puckouts.. They way KK sit on a puck out is so deep they usually leave a few spare.. I would reckon they would love to give noel connors the ball as he is not a man to strike it but i think it could play into our hands as he is a great mover, give and go player.. 20 yards passes here and there from midfield up will exploit there injured and tired defence cause if you get up that far past their blanket attack on the guy with the ball they have will be broken and opens up the whole field to ping diagonal balls into our pacey forwards..

It needs confidence on the ball and balls to pull it off.. and not for people in the stands to get on their backs once it breaks down cause it will at times but its the only way.. Alternatively we can horse ball after ball on the top of them and win f all..

Only problem with this is you can just go out tonight and say this is how we will do it.. it needs to be coached and i believe it was until league game v KK when it was tried and near to perfection for me until sok made the poor handling error in second half.. and then you had the chorus from the idiots in the stand going ' will you puck it out and stop this tappy stuff'

its a brain zapping style as well.. First 10 mins you're on the pitch (having played v this style on a few occasion) and you're going what the f**k is going on, which is not what kk need after such a contest last week.. Cork won back to back all irelands with it cause they realised they didnt have the forwards to compete in the air.. KK have to be mentally tired so again is another plus..

Sadly i think this is probably wishful thinking on my behalf for both mgmt to instigate it and fans to be patient with it..

robopaddy

Brad1234 wrote: »

Crowd have a huge part to play on saturday night.. I would expect waterford to complete change tack and start playing everything short... The problem is you have a huge bandwagon waterford support at any game and they will be up in arms at this cause they dont understand the logic behind it.. Some old school hurling man will throw his clothes off at this tactic and starting roaring 'will ye strike the ball long' to which the bandwagoners will think well he must know hurling so eagerly join in but his time could have been 40 years ago..

The only way to take on KK is playing the game like a Marino Waltz... Soky (if allowed) will have a huge part to play in the style.. Basically any of his six backs are targets for puckouts.. They way KK sit on a puck out is so deep they usually leave a few spare.. I would reckon they would love to give noel connors the ball as he is not a man to strike it but i think it could play into our hands as he is a great mover, give and go player.. 20 yards passes here and there from midfield up will exploit there injured and tired defence cause if you get up that far past their blanket attack on the guy with the ball they have will be broken and opens up the whole field to ping diagonal balls into our pacey forwards..

It needs confidence on the ball and balls to pull it off.. and not for people in the stands to get on their backs once it breaks down cause it will at times but its the only way.. Alternatively we can horse ball after ball on the top of them and win f all..

Only problem with this is you can just go out tonight and say this is how we will do it.. it needs to be coached and i believe it was until league game v KK when it was tried and near to perfection for me until sok made the poor handling error in second half.. and then you had the chorus from the idiots in the stand going ' will you puck it out and stop this tappy stuff'

its a brain zapping style as well.. First 10 mins you're on the pitch (having played v this style on a few occasion) and you're going what the f**k is going on, which is not what kk need after such a contest last week.. Cork won back to back all irelands with it cause they realised they didnt have the forwards to compete in the air.. KK have to be mentally tired so again is another plus..

Sadly i think this is probably wishful thinking on my behalf for both mgmt to instigate it and fans to be patient with it..

if what you say is true and the players are listening to whats being said upon the stand rather than what the management are saying on the sideline we a complete circus

Brad1234

robopaddy wrote: »

if what you say is true and the players are listening to whats being said upon the stand rather than what the management are saying on the sideline we a complete circus

They dont have their ears pinned to it.. but when your out on the pitch and you can feel the heat from the crowd no fella wants to hold onto ball unless he has surpreme confidence it what he is doing.. its the walk of life in any sport with high attendance.. Use some logic rather than not particularly well thought out replies

seananigans

Can someone tell me why the minor match is on in Limerick , will be in Thurles this weekend, is bit of a balls I have to miss it