Do Iarnród Éireann even READ appeals before they reject them?

winterlight

Got on a train from my local station (Sallins) to Heuston recently for the first time in years. Used to always buy my ticket on the train. No ticket sellers on the train this time so as soon as I got off I went to a member of staff to try and buy one. Asked me loads of questions, which I duly answered, then he slapped a 100euro fine on me. Told me that I should appeal it because it would probably be waived in my circumstances, even gave me his name and told me I could name him on my appeal. Wrote this letter:

---

Dear Sir/Madam,


RE: Fixed Penalty Notice Appeal c

On Saturday the 25/06/2011, I arrived in Sallins to board the 10.10am train from Sallins heading for Dublin Heuston. As I approached the platform, the train was waiting. I made a quick decision to board the train. I believed that I could buy a ticket from a staff member on the train before it arrived in Heuston. The reason I assumed this was because the last time I used the service (2 years ago) that is exactly what I did. I had no reason to believe that you didn't put ticket sellers on the train anymore. I am not a regular commuter- any trips I make to Dublin I usually take in my car.

When I got off the train in Heuston, I immediately went to a member of staff on the platform to ask if I could buy a ticket. I spoke to two members of staff before being eventually referred to Mr.

---

(RPU). I explained myself to Mr.

---

and co-operated fully in giving him my details for the Fixed Penalty Notice form. Mr.

---

informed me that he was recommending that I would not have to pay the €100 fine, just the €7.20. He furthermore advised me to appeal either by email or writing.

I await your reply.

Kind regards,

---

So anyway, today I got my reply. I'm raging as it's clear the writer of this letter hasn't even read my appeal. He's just giving me the company line.
Here it is:

---

Thank you for your email in regards to your fine. It is incumbent on passengers to allow sufficient time to purchase a ticket from the facilities provided at the station before they board the train, be in possession of a valid ticket for the complete journey they are about to undertake, retain the ticket until they have left our premises and if requested produce the ticket to an inspector. This has always been Company policy and is outlined in our conditions of carriage.

However in your circumstances explained in your e mail you did board the services without a valid ticket it is the responsibility of the passenger to ensure they have a valid ticket before boarding the train. Therefore I am not prepared to negate the fine and the amount of €107.20 is still required to be paid. Please ensure that you discharge the fine if you have not done so already as payment is now over due.

Payment of the fine may be made either by cheque/ postal order, made payable to Iarnród Éireann. Alternatively, you may pay by credit/laser card by telephoning the RPU at 01-7032461/01-7032530 between 0915-13.00 and 14.15-16.30 Monday to Friday.

---

Should I write back to him?
Has anyone on here ever been successful in an appeal?

And WHY am I being fined 100euro? I just saw on their website that the fines start at 25euro and 100 euro is the max. Seems way harsh...

goingnowhere

There is a ticket machine on the Dublin bound platform in Sallins right next to where you enter the platform.

You arrived late, you had an opportunity to buy ticket, you didn't, you got fined, no valid ground for appeal.

The only enforceable fine is 100 euro as laid down in law.

Put it down to experience and move on

winterlight

goingnowhere wrote: »

There is a ticket machine on the Dublin bound platform in Sallins right next to where you enter the platform.

You arrived late, you had an opportunity to buy ticket, you didn't, you got fined, no valid ground for appeal.

The only enforceable fine is 100 euro as laid down in law.

Put it down to experience and move on

Look, I'm probably going to pay it anyway. I'm just posting here to get advice from people who are seasoned commuters as I don't know any personally. I still think it is very unfair. I made an honest mistake and I'm sure you'll agree that the punishment does not fit the crime in this case.

I guess I'll just have to thank my lucky stars that I don't have to use this service ever again.

Judgement Day

goingnowhere wrote: »

There is a ticket machine on the Dublin bound platform in Sallins right next to where you enter the platform.

You arrived late, you had an opportunity to buy ticket, you didn't, you got fined, no valid ground for appeal.

The only enforceable fine is 100 euro as laid down in law.

Put it down to experience and move on

Yeah but he won't be doing it by IE again - another satisfied customer.

Mr. Presentable

How can you say "honest mistake"? You got on the train sans ticket.

winterlight

Mr. Presentable wrote: »

How can you say "honest mistake"? You got on the train sans ticket.

Mr. Presentable, I used to do this all the time! It was never a problem for me before!

winterlight

Sorry maybe that wasn't clear, there was always a ticket seller on that route. I'm not talking about that long ago either, 2 years ago...

daddydick

I think that's an absolute joke. There was no need for them to penalise an honest mistake like this,

For all those high and mighty people on here saying that she broke the rules etc, €100 is extremely excessive, you dont even get that for driving at 100mph....totally excessive when it's totally clear that she was not in any way trying to avoid the charge.

Judgement Day

Mr. Presentable wrote: »

How can you say "honest mistake"? You got on the train sans ticket.

winterlight - justifiably in my opinion - feels that some 'jobsworth' in IE hasn't even bothered to read his letter but sent the automatic, soviet style 'cockroach' letter - typical of IE customer relations in my experience.

Cookie_Monster

you buy a ticket at the station before you board the train, it's not really a difficult concept.
I really can't see how you have any grounds what so ever to appeal...

there was always a ticket seller on that route.

can you provide proof of that in the slightest?

Captain Chaos

The rules on IE are very clear, no ticket, no trip. You have to have to correct ticket for the train you board before you step on, not after. Luas is the same policy.

You don't buy a cinema ticket after you watch the movie.

NedNew2

I agree with Daddydick, there are a lot of self-righteous people that post on here without a minutes thought. I think this current hard-man attitude of IE will be totally counterproductive. This was an honest mistake by an honest person and any warm-blooded creature would have the decency to allow the fine to be waivered.

IE's customer numbers are falling away and they are mostly to blame for it themselves.

OP, you have my sympathy.

winterlight

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

you buy a ticket at the station before you board the train, it's not really a difficult concept.
I really can't see how you have any grounds what so ever to appeal...


can you provide proof of that in the slightest?

Look, I have better things to do with my life than come on boards.ie to make up lies.

I shouldn't have to prove that there was always a ticket seller on this route before, because any IE employee worth their salt would know this, and if they weren't sure, they'd know who to ask to verify this.

Thanks for the company line though all the same!:D

n97 mini

It would appear IE would prefer good, quality, repeat customers didn't make journeys in the event they don't have time to get a ticket beforehand. Anal attitude, especially in a recession.

But hey it's IE. What else would you suspect? Customer service? An idea of how to run a business?

Cookie_Monster

there's a difference between customer service and dealing with someone who's clearly, deliberately evaded a fare.

Mr. Presentable

The terms are clear, the signs are clear. Do not board the train without a ticket. I don't care what the OP got away with two years ago.

There's a reason the standard fare (not fine!) is €100.00. It is to discourage people from taking free trips. Was the OP going to buy a ticket when he/she got off at the other end had they not been caught? Didn't think so......

Mr. Presentable

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

there's a difference between customer service and dealing with someone who's clearly, deliberately evaded a fare.

Which the OP did.

n97 mini

Mr. Presentable wrote: »

The terms are clear, the signs are clear. Do not board the train without a ticket. I don't care what the OP got away with two years ago.

There's a reason the standard fare (not fine!) is €100.00. It is to discourage people from taking free trips. Was the OP going to buy a ticket when he/she got off at the other end had they not been caught? Didn't think so......

You clearly didn't read his post. First line:

as I got off I went to a member of staff to try and buy one.

winterlight

Mr. Presentable wrote: »

The terms are clear, the signs are clear. Do not board the train without a ticket. I don't care what the OP got away with two years ago.

There's a reason the standard fare (not fine!) is €100.00. It is to discourage people from taking free trips. Was the OP going to buy a ticket when he/she got off at the other end had they not been caught? Didn't think so......

lol- you haven't read my original post either- I approached 3 different people in Heuston trying to buy a ticket! Sure you can't LEAVE Heuston without a ticket- they have turnstyles and people checking tickets!

n97 mini

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

there's a difference between customer service and dealing with someone who's clearly, deliberately evaded a fare.

You usually don't troll, so allowing you the benefit of the doubt I'm really not sure how you came to that conclusion. Mr Presentable, otoh, I'm not so sure about.

daddydick

It's just another case of very, very bad business from a publically run company.

And I am in no way puclic-sector bashing here, and definitely not at the front line employees. It is the management that havn't a clue how to run a business properly and obviously totally inept at the concept of goodwill to customers and profitability.

daddydick

Mr. Presentable wrote: »

Which the OP did.

Bullsh1t

She (i think?) clearly got on the train expecting to be able to pay on it?

Unless you consider the OP a liar?

Mr. Presentable

n97 mini wrote: »

You clearly didn't read his post. First line:

Gospel, eh?

Mr. Presentable

daddydick wrote: »

Bullsh1t

She (i think?) clearly got on the train expecting to be able to pay on it?

Unless you consider the OP a liar?

Who does that? The rules are clear, but that doesn't seem to matter........

Mr. Presentable

winterlight wrote: »

lol- you haven't read my original post either- I approached 3 different people in Heuston trying to buy a ticket! Sure you can't LEAVE Heuston without a ticket- they have turnstyles and people checking tickets!

After your journey. Too late, baby

charlemont

Pay 'em nothing, S F A.

Cookie_Monster

n97 mini wrote: »

You usually don't troll, so allowing you the benefit of the doubt I'm really not sure how you came to that conclusion. Mr Presentable, otoh, I'm not so sure about.

as Mr. P has said the rules are clear.

maybe I'm just sick to death of people constantly coming on here and trying to look for ways out of paying a fine they 100% deserve, trying to make excuses or blame others. I am no fan of CIE at all but in this case I will fully defend them as the OP is clearly not bothered with the rules for the sake of saving a few minutes.

daddydick

Mr. Presentable wrote: »

Who does that? The rules are clear, but that doesn't seem to matter........

Certainly not you evidently, I imagine you ride bareback into Dublin on your high horse

I love people who have never made an honest mistake in their lives

n97 mini

Mr. Presentable wrote: »

After your journey. Too late, baby

Me smells a troll...

n97 mini

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

as Mr. P has said the rules are clear.

maybe I'm just sick to death of people constantly coming on here and trying to look for ways out of paying a fine they 100% deserve, trying to make excuses or blame others. I am no fan of CIE at all but in this case I will fully defend them as the OP is clearly not bothered with the rules for the sake of saving a few minutes.

You arrive late at a station, train on platform, is getting a ticket your number 1 priority, and getting that train secondary?

winterlight

Mr. Presentable wrote: »

Gospel, eh?

Mr. Presentable, you've given your opinion. Since it is based on an assumption that my original post is a lie, I'm no longer interested in it.

Some people just have a very pessimistic view of humanity I suppose!

dowlingm

http://www.irishrail.ie/home/passenger_charter.asp#4

At the station ticket office We will try to sell you the best ticket to meet your travel needs.
If you do not already have a ticket, you should arrive at the station in time to get one. Everyone must have a valid ticket before boarding the train.

It doesn't matter what used to be the case. A time traveller from the 1900s would get an Fixed Penalty when trying to pay on board with an old penny because that's what things used to cost then.

corktina

trouble is IE cant tell the difference between a genuine guy like the OP and someone who chances it and hopes there will be noone on the barrier at the other end. How would they?

Cookie_Monster

corktina wrote: »

trouble is IE cant tell the difference between a genuine guy like the OP and someone who chances it and hopes there will be noone on the barrier at the other end. How would they?

and neither can we

mickydoomsux

n97 mini wrote: »

You arrive late at a station, train on platform, is getting a ticket your number 1 priority, and getting that train secondary?

Well considering you are supposed to have a ticket before boarding......

Plus, the "used to be a checker on board" is just silly. Things change, there's been a lot of staff gotten rid of and not replaced.

-Chris-

n97 mini wrote: »

Me smells a troll...

And yous don'ts presses the Report Post buttons, rather yous decides it's ok to insult 'nother posters on threads.

If you think someone's trolling, please report the post. Please don't insult or accuse other posters on-thread.

crushproof

I had the same problem a few years ago OP, before they introduced the automatic barriers in Connolly, alot of times I (and others purchased tickets either on the train or at Connolly, alas one day I head up to the counter, queue with 2 other people and the 3 of us are slapped with a €50 fine...totally shocked but fair enough...new rule must have come in yadda yadda.
Told I can pay the fine at anytime at any of the ticket booths in Connolly. Pop in a few days later and pay the €50, done and done.
This was in 2007, not quite sure but low and behold I got a letter in the post 3 months ago demanding I pay the fine which was outstanding or else I'll summoned to court!! Baffled I rang them up and told them I paid up in 2007, clearly whoever I paid the fine to just pocketed the 50, they eventually dropped the court!! So OP, make sure to get a reciept when you pay!!

Also I think a €100 for a genuine customer is an absolute joke!

Solair

The trouble is that Irish Rail treat customers with contempt and seem to have an attitude that everyone is trying to get a free ride.

I had a run in with a ticket checker who refused to believe my ticket price could be valid as I had gotten a discounted ticket on their website. He basically humiliated me in front of a whole coach!

This morning they got international media coverage (it was in the Spanish media) for basically being blatantly homophobic and fixated on refusing boarding due to some nonsense about interpretation of a ticket rules in the most irritating, pedantic, customer unfriendly way possible.

The incident was internationally embarrassing, not only for Irish Rail, and but the whole country.

They need a serious rethink about how they treat customers, or they will find a popular appetite to have them privatised never mind losing customers!

winterlight

crushproof wrote: »

I had the same problem a few years ago OP, before they introduced the automatic barriers in Connolly, alot of times I (and others purchased tickets either on the train or at Connolly, alas one day I head up to the counter, queue with 2 other people and the 3 of us are slapped with a €50 fine...totally shocked but fair enough...new rule must have come in yadda yadda.
Told I can pay the fine at anytime at any of the ticket booths in Connolly. Pop in a few days later and pay the €50, done and done.
This was in 2007, not quite sure but low and behold I got a letter in the post 3 months ago demanding I pay the fine which was outstanding or else I'll summoned to court!! Baffled I rang them up and told them I paid up in 2007, clearly whoever I paid the fine to just pocketed the 50, they eventually dropped the court!! So OP, make sure to get a reciept when you pay!!

Also I think a €100 for a genuine customer is an absolute joke!

Thanks for the advice. Heavy-handed sanctions, incompetent customer service, contradicting themselves...I'll definitely need a receipt!

n97 mini

-Chris- wrote: »

And yous don'ts presses the Report Post buttons, rather yous decides it's ok to insult 'nother posters on threads.

If you think someone's trolling, please report the post. Please don't insult or accuse other posters on-thread.

Ok, thanks, just did.

Hilly Bill

winterlight wrote: »

Got on a train from my local station (Sallins) to Heuston recently for the first time in years. Used to always buy my ticket on the train. No ticket sellers on the train this time so as soon as I got off I went to a member of staff to try and buy one. Asked me loads of questions, which I duly answered, then he slapped a 100euro fine on me. Told me that I should appeal it because it would probably be waived in my circumstances, even gave me his name and told me I could name him on my appeal. Wrote this letter:

So anyway, today I got my reply. I'm raging as it's clear the writer of this letter hasn't even read my appeal. He's just giving me the company line.
Here it is:



Should I write back to him?
Has anyone on here ever been successful in an appeal?

And WHY am I being fined 100euro? I just saw on their website that the fines start at 25euro and 100 euro is the max. Seems way harsh...

Going by your post i can understand how you feel hard done by but you made a costly mistake just because you got to the station late and havent a leg to stand on.
Its wrong to say that the person that replied to you hadnt read your appeal when it says in the reply that they did.
The only thing you can do is appeal again and let them take it further in the hope that if it goes to court the judge will go in your favour.

To the other replies on this thread, i cant see how you can say for sure that a poster is genuine and honest and it was 100% a mistake just by one or two posts .

winterlight

With regard to my original post, my reason for posting was to get feedback from seasoned commuters on whether or not I was justified in feeling badly treated by IE. I'm not a commuter; I hadn't been on a train in 2 years and I just wanted to know what the consensus out there was, if I was correct in thinking a 100euro fine didn't fit the crime...

There are a lot of weirdos on here have turned it into a discussion about whether I'm telling the truth or not. Talk about missing the point!?!

Thanks to all who took the time to read my original post properly and give constructive comments though!

foggy_lad

winterlight wrote: »

Look, I'm probably going to pay it anyway. I'm just posting here to get advice from people who are seasoned commuters as I don't know any personally. I still think it is very unfair. I made an honest mistake and I'm sure you'll agree that the punishment does not fit the crime in this case.

I guess I'll just have to thank my lucky stars that I don't have to use this service ever again.

If you ever again need to get from Sallins to Dublin there is a Town Link bus operated by JJ Kavanagh's that stops outside the station roughly every hour, you could get one in either direction to Naas for the 126 bus to Dublin or to Clane at Wood's garage/Centra for the 120/121/123/123B busses into Dublin

Hilly Bill

foggy_lad wrote: »

If you ever again need to get from Sallins to Dublin there is a Town Link bus operated by JJ Kavanagh's that stops outside the station roughly every hour, you could get one in either direction to Naas for the 126 bus to Dublin or to Clane at Wood's garage/Centra for the 120/121/123/123B busses into Dublin

Just get to the station a bit earlier should do the trick.

Hilly Bill

winterlight wrote: »

With regard to my original post, my reason for posting was to get feedback from seasoned commuters on whether or not I was justified in feeling badly treated by IE. I'm not a commuter; I hadn't been on a train in 2 years and I just wanted to know what the consensus out there was, if I was correct in thinking a 100euro fine didn't fit the crime...

There are a lot of weirdos on here have turned it into a discussion about whether I'm telling the truth or not. Talk about missing the point!?!

Thanks to all who took the time to read my original post properly and give constructive comments though!

The truth is that there have been countless threads like these and only you know the truth, the rest of us just have to take your word on it.

foggy_lad

NedNew2 wrote: »

I agree with Daddydick, there are a lot of self-righteous people that post on here without a minutes thought. I think this current hard-man attitude of IE will be totally counterproductive. This was an honest mistake by an honest person and any warm-blooded creature would have the decency to allow the fine to be waivered.IE's customer numbers are falling away and they are mostly to blame for it themselves.

OP, you have my sympathy.

I am sure there was someone available in Heuston to arrange a ticket for this person but they would rather see yet another customer lost forever!

I have said it before, Irish Rail is being run solidly into the ground from the inside and policies like this which persecute the ordinary traveller to the detriment of the companys revenue are coming from the very bowels of the organisation in Heuston and Inchicore!

BuffyBot

With regard to my original post, my reason for posting was to get feedback from seasoned commuters on whether or not I was justified in feeling badly treated by IE. I'm not a commuter; I hadn't been on a train in 2 years and I just wanted to know what the consensus out there was, if I was correct in thinking a 100euro fine didn't fit the crime...

I'm pretty sure, at each entrance to the station in Sallins, there is a rather large poster advising passengers to get their ticket before boarding or face a fine. On that basis alone, your grounds for appeal isn't looking so good.

Hilly Bill

Its a policy that prosecutes those that dont play by the rules. What proof did the OP give to say that they got on at Sallins? Its the whole point of having a valid ticket before boarding a train . Looking honest and genuine isnt proof that you got on at the station you said you did. Maybe another option by Irish Rail could be to charge the full fare of where the train started from . If the train started in Cork and you got on in Kildare without a ticket then you pay the fare from Cork for example before you leave your final destination. If you dont or cant pay the full fare at say Heuston then you should be given the €100 fine etc.

GTE

Implying or saying outright that the OP did this to evade a ticket is the furthest in my time here on boards that I have ever seen members push a post out so far out into the realms of unfounded rubbish.

Hilly Bill made a good point earlier on that this is a commonly asked question and that it is up to us to take the OP's word on it.

It seems to me from reading this thread that the posts attacking the OP are born out of a petty and grumpy manner due to it being a commonly asked question.

I very much doubt in reality that someone who really wanted to evade a fair would bother their ass coming onto an internet forum trying to get around it.

This is a bloody entertaining place. Keyboard cat fights all over a groundless assumption.


To the OP. Given that the station does have ticket machines according to posters here then I dont know what you could do aside fight your corner and hopefully see if the staff members who you asked for help can help, but I doubt that could happen. I am amazed that they have been so heavy handed though from the office side of it. I would even be surprised that they just didnt let you get a ticket in the first place or at least have a slightly more expensive price on the ticket because it was the fault of the passenger.

For whatever the reason over in Connolly they have a much better attitude in my experience.
One of the stations on a route outta there doesnt have a ticket machine and the ticket officer on the train was very erratic some weeks. They actually started selling tickets at Connolly for when you got off the train but if your starting station had a ticket machine that would be useless to you.

This is another vote for avoiding the train.

n97 mini

I doubt the OP will get the train again, but if this does ever happen just tell them the ticket machine in the station wasn't working and the hatch was closed.

Bluetonic

foggy_lad wrote: »

If you ever again need to get from Sallins to Dublin there is a Town Link bus operated by JJ Kavanagh's that stops outside the station roughly every hour, you could get one in either direction to Naas for the 126 bus to Dublin or to Clane at Wood's garage/Centra for the 120/121/123/123B busses into Dublin

Just remember that you will need to pay for the bus before they let you travel, just like the train.

n97 mini wrote: »

I doubt the OP will get the train again, but if this does ever happen just tell them the ticket machine in the station wasn't working and the hatch was closed.

They will ring the station and check to see if the hatch was manned.

They will check the machine and see if it was broken, rejected money.

If the hatch is closed there is no requirement to use a ticket machine before boarding. This has been covered a number of times before.