Greenways [greenway map of Ireland in post 1]

riddlinrussell

loyatemu wrote: »

the risks of mixing cyclists and pedestrians are exaggerated - talk of speed limits etc are overthinking it (who would enforce them?).

Pedestrians always have priority on shared paths, you can put signs up to emphasise this. "Sports" cyclists (i.e. people on road bikes in lycra) are generally going to avoid routes where they have to weave around lots of walkers anyway.

Agreed on speed limits, unenforceable unless you have dedicated Guards (on Bikes!) for each greenway.

A combination of signage and marking should be enough to encourage correct usage and clearly delineate who is in the wrong in the event of an incident, Marking segregation on a long distance greenway is obviously fairly impractical and limiting, but could definitely be considered for, say, a kilometer each side of the main access points, and definitely for city routes. Basically there should be a clear and publicised style guide, say

'At high volume areas path width should be at least 3 metres and clearly delineated with path markings between cyclist and pedestrian on greenways'

And clear directives saying that in cities and towns, providing a 'greenway' and saying cycling is provided for wont cut it, segregated commuter cycleways need to also be implemented.

hans aus dtschl

riddlinrussell wrote: »

And clear directives saying that in cities and towns, providing a 'greenway' and saying cycling is provided for wont cut it, segregated commuter cycleways need to also be implemented.

This is where my biggest concern is at the moment TBH.

We've lots of lovely "greenways" being created by Cork Co Co at the moment which:
Frequently demand that cyclists dismount
Always cede right of way to motorised traffic
Are circuitous and longer than the direct road route
Are shared with pedestrians
Are sometimes just a stenciled "bike" symbol on a pavement

These aren't of an acceptable standard as far as I'm concerned.

hans aus dtschl

loyatemu wrote: »

the risks of mixing cyclists and pedestrians are exaggerated - talk of speed limits etc are overthinking it (who would enforce them?).

Pedestrians always have priority on shared paths, you can put signs up to emphasise this. "Sports" cyclists (i.e. people on road bikes in lycra) are generally going to avoid routes where they have to weave around lots of walkers anyway.

This is all true, but I think that we shouldn't be designing for some faster-moving cyclists to "give up" on the infrastructure where it gets busy. Rather we should be designing more width and segregation into the infrastructure.

That's without discussing the dreaded "cyclists dismount" signs or greenway users having to yield to motorised vehicles.

And my thought process is that the catch-all term of "Greenway" allows designers to hide a multitude of sins: no segregation or width where needed, not enough access points for walkers, poor surfaces etc.

L1011

Dats me wrote: »

Who made this idea of using the old road as a Greenway? It makes such good sense

Former NRA about 7 years ago. Most realignments of N secondary roads in tourist areas use the old road + new track where needed but the sections can be isolated from any other coherent cycling infrastructure none the less

Kerry, Donegal and West Galway have been the main areas where it's been planned or done

riddlinrussell

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

This is all true, but I think that we shouldn't be designing for some faster-moving cyclists to "give up" on the infrastructure where it gets busy. Rather we should be designing more width and segregation into the infrastructure.

That's without discussing the dreaded "cyclists dismount" signs or greenway users having to yield to motorised vehicles.

And my thought process is that the catch-all term of "Greenway" allows designers to hide a multitude of sins: no segregation or width where needed, not enough access points for walkers, poor surfaces etc.

Exactly, a greenway should meet certain requirements if it wants to be called that, if roads have minimum standards why cant greenways? For the Waterford Greenway the cyclist should dismount when they want to, not when told to. (Possible exception for Kilmeaden Station simply given the layout there would make it prohibitively expensive to put in a 'Station bypass' and its a greenway feature anyway rather than a road crossing so no harm encouraging a slow down there IMO)

spacetweek

CatInABox wrote: »

Gated chicanes basically rule out using bike trailers, cargo bikes and some wheelchairs, and are entirely the wrong thing to put anywhere. We should be removing the ones that do exist, because they're so exclusionary.

They were put there to exclude motorbikes. This is a serious problem in some areas.

CatInABox

spacetweek wrote: »

They were put there to exclude motorbikes. This is a serious problem in some areas.

Do they though? People that are going to bring scramblers in aren't stopped by those gates, and people on cargo bikes/wheelchairs are.

Qrt

CatInABox wrote: »

Do they though? People that are going to bring scramblers in aren't stopped by those gates, and people on cargo bikes/wheelchairs are.

Definitely not! I was raced by two ten year olds on a scrambler while cycling along the Grand Canal once.

CatInABox

Qrt wrote: »

Definitely not! I was raced by two ten year olds on a scrambler while cycling along the Grand Canal once.

Yes, as far as I'm concerned, it's another no effort idea to make it look like official Ireland is doing something, but once again it only punishes those who follow the rules while others just do what they want and get away with it.

marno21

Tender gone out for a direct connection from Kilmeaden village to the Waterford Greenway

https://irl.eu-supply.com/ctm/Supplier/PublicPurchase/152631/0/0?returnUrl=ctm/Supplier/PublicTenders&b=ETENDERS_SIMPLE

serfboard

marno21 wrote: »

Tender gone out for a direct connection from Kilmeaden village to the Waterford Greenway
https://irl.eu-supply.com/ctm/Supplier/PublicPurchase/152631/0/0?returnUrl=ctm/Supplier/PublicTenders&b=ETENDERS_SIMPLE

While that's great to see I have a question:

Tender wrote:

The proposed works will create a link from Kilmeaden directly to the Waterford Greenway through the provision of a walking corridor enabling access directly into Kilmeaden village. The proposed works will commence at Waterford Suir Valley Railway carpark and will traverse agricultural lands and public roadways.

Does this mean that bikes will not be allowed or am I reading too much into it?

Grassey

Greyway proposal from Wexford TD, 80km along old n11

riddlinrussell

Grassey wrote: »

Greyway proposal from Wexford TD, 80km along old n11

Great, although I don't know if you'll sell it with the term Greyway.... How about Cycle Highway

loyatemu

riddlinrussell wrote: »

Great, although I don't know if you'll sell it with the term Greyway.... How about Cycle Highway

on the N11 thread various people are griping that the speed limit on the old N11 has been reduced to 80km/h but in reality the road is now totally over-specced for what it is (a quiet regional road) so narrowing it to allow space for cycling seems a better option.

It would be nice if the design for rebuilt secondary routes (single carriageway with a parallel cycle path as on the N86 and N59) could be retrofitted to the many bypassed former national primary routes around the country.

mr spuckler

loyatemu wrote: »

on the N11 thread various people are griping that the speed limit on the old N11 has been reduced to 80km/h

That's exactly what happened after the M6 was built, the old Athlone to Moate road was made 80kph. Of course people complained and of course the council relented...

hans aus dtschl

loyatemu wrote: »

on the N11 thread various people are griping that the speed limit on the old N11 has been reduced to 80km/h but in reality the road is now totally over-specced for what it is (a quiet regional road) so narrowing it to allow space for cycling seems a better option.

It would be nice if the design for rebuilt secondary routes (single carriageway with a parallel cycle path as on the N86 and N59) could be retrofitted to the many bypassed former national primary routes around the country.

I've long thought this also. They tend to be popular cycle routes anyway, if the ones I've used are anything to go by.

roadmaster

Ulster Canal Greenway Phase 2 has being launched

https://monaghan.ie/communitydevelopment/ulster-canal-greenway-phase-2/

The Helpful Engineer

Maybe i misunderstood the discussion above, but I disagree with taking the Millennium Path (Naas) cycle path off the map based on quality of surface, stopping at roundabouts etc.

The Naas path is better than alot of the cycle tracks in Dublin that have been left on. For instance i have cycled the grand canal cycle path in Ballyfarmot, and in my opinion it has been ruined by anti-social behaviour, illegal horses grazing on it, regular gates which are hard to squeeze through etc. Also Clanwilliam Terrace in Dublin city centre is a serious pain to cycle along.

The real problem with the Millennium Park route is it is not on a route desire line (it doesn't really go anywhere) but this will be partially rectified in two years as the new Naas Community School is being built alongside it.

Qrt

The Helpful Engineer wrote: »

Maybe i misunderstood the discussion above, but I disagree with taking the Millennium Path (Naas) cycle path off the map based on quality of surface, stopping at roundabouts etc.

The Naas path is better than alot of the cycle tracks in Dublin that have been left on. For instance i have cycled the grand canal cycle path in Ballyfarmot, and in my opinion it has been ruined by anti-social behaviour, illegal horses grazing on it, regular gates which are hard to squeeze through etc. Also Clanwilliam Terrace in Dublin city centre is a serious pain to cycle along.

The real problem with the Millennium Park route is it is not on a route desire line (it doesn't really go anywhere) but this will be partially rectified in two years as the new Naas Community School is being built alongside it.

Best way to make the Grand Canal safe is the build along it. If there were apartments built all along it, like the canal closer to town, it would be much better.

Carawaystick

Qrt wrote: »

Best way to make the Grand Canal safe is the build along it. If there were apartments built all along it, like the canal closer to town, it would be much better.

There's buildings right beside it at Leeseon street bridge, which is why it's dangerous ( only about 90cm wide 2 way cycletrack at the lock arm)

Qrt

Carawaystick wrote: »

There's buildings right beside it at Leeseon street bridge, which is why it's dangerous ( only about 90cm wide 2 way cycletrack at the lock arm)

Obviously I don’t mean THAT close

riddlinrussell

The Helpful Engineer wrote: »

Maybe i misunderstood the discussion above, but I disagree with taking the Millennium Path (Naas) cycle path off the map based on quality of surface, stopping at roundabouts etc.

The Naas path is better than alot of the cycle tracks in Dublin that have been left on. For instance i have cycled the grand canal cycle path in Ballyfarmot, and in my opinion it has been ruined by anti-social behaviour, illegal horses grazing on it, regular gates which are hard to squeeze through etc. Also Clanwilliam Terrace in Dublin city centre is a serious pain to cycle along.

The real problem with the Millennium Park route is it is not on a route desire line (it doesn't really go anywhere) but this will be partially rectified in two years as the new Naas Community School is being built alongside it.

It's hard enough determining which routes meet the admittedly nebulous criteria of 'good enough' without factoring in illegal horses!

I don't think there is a single 'perfect' greenway in Ireland, but a 'completed' route being something that a 5 year old could cycle without fear I think would be where I would try to draw a line for my map, If anyone wants to use my GPX data to go granular and rate the completed routes on additional criteria, such as signage/gate quality, disability access, etc, etc, please fire ahead, the more, and more visible, information there is on cycleways in Ireland, the better.

Muckyboots

riddlinrussell wrote: »

It's hard enough determining which routes meet the admittedly nebulous criteria of 'good enough' without factoring in illegal horses!

I don't think there is a single 'perfect' greenway in Ireland, but a 'completed' route being something that a 5 year old could cycle without fear I think would be where I would try to draw a line for my map, If anyone wants to use my GPX data to go granular and rate the completed routes on additional criteria, such as signage/gate quality, disability access, etc, etc, please fire ahead, the more, and more visible, information there is on cycleways in Ireland, the better.

5 year old without fear is the perfect benchmark. Spot on.

riddlinrussell

https://www.thecork.ie/2019/09/01/north-cork-wants-a-slice-of-the-greenway-action-for-localtourism/

Proposal for A "Duhallow Greenway", first stage Newmarket - Kanturk

serfboard

riddlinrussell wrote: »

https://www.thecork.ie/2019/09/01/north-cork-wants-a-slice-of-the-greenway-action-for-localtourism/
Proposal for A "Duhallow Greenway", first stage Newmarket - Kanturk

Thanks for posting that article.

Another example of how we have woken up as a society to the economic (never mind the social and health) benefits of Greenways. From the headline "North Cork wants a slice of the ‘Greenway’ action", to the following quote:

A Duhallow Greenway would be similar to the greenway in Waterford in that it would follow the old railway line. With regard to the Kanturk-Newmarket Railway Line, it has been closed since 1963 and there is undoubtedly the potential to create a fantastic public amenity, something that would be of great value to local and tourists alike.

But the best part of all is this - what hippie, sandal-wearing member of the Green Party is proposing this Greenway? Step forward Fine Gael Councillor John Paul O’Shea.

riddlinrussell

Yes very much a sign of the times, when it comes to Greenways at least everyone wants in on it as a touristic moneyspinner.

I just hope a lot of them get built (and to a high standard) before some regions realise there might not be as good a tourist draw for them as Waterford or The Great Western, not because it will make their greenways a flop or a waste of money, but many routes will be a massive benefit to their communities and the more routes that exist the stronger the case for greenways nationwide, especially where you can create safe cycling networks across the whole country.

Imagine being able to hop on your Bike in Dublin and spend two weeks heading out west or to the south coast and back entirely under your own steam and without having to dice with a single car along the way.

AndrewJRenko

Some interesting references to plans for the East Coast Greenway (Dublin to Wexford) in the consultation documents for Shanganah Park

https://dlrcoco.citizenspace.com/parks/shanganagh-park-masterplan-have-your-say/

Grassey

https://www.southernstar.ie/news/roundup/articles/2019/09/10/4179341-clons-new-greenway-forces-users-onto-the-n71/

THE new Clonakilty ‘greenway’ is leaving users exposed to the dangerous N71 road, because it ends well short of its planned destination – the local technology park.

riddlinrussell

Grassey wrote: »

https://www.southernstar.ie/news/roundup/articles/2019/09/10/4179341-clons-new-greenway-forces-users-onto-the-n71/

Very disappointing, there was no indication that it wasn't even going to reach its destination while construction was being wrapped up

Grassey

Completely, it defies logic really. You'd never have a road stop a few hundred meters from it's intended destination and say, sure that's grand, well done lads. Wrap it up now, we can always revisit it in the future.