''Islam is a religion of peace'' (debate)

Brown Bomber

Standman wrote: »

@BrownBomber, That was a survey of US Muslims only and can hardly be indicative of opinions in Muslim countries.

True enough but Mr Harris tends to be quite loose with the facts to be fair so when he says one thing it can mean something completely different.

However, it is indicatative of US Muslims. What do the results suggest to you?

Brown Bomber

swampgas wrote: »

It is only in western secular society, in the last few generations, that human rights have successfully been fought for and to a large extent achieved. It simply happened here first, possibly because of a combination of factors, including acceptance of the separation of church and state and the aftermath of two world wars. In any case, most of the countries of the world adopted the UDHR, so it's not as if it has a narrow European appeal.



I have marked with italics the key point in your response: there is no way for many people to "genuinely and freely" choose how they live in many countries. In order to genuinely and freely choose, I would argue that free speech is a prerequisite. If there cannot be open debate about changing the existing system, there is effectively no choice.

There is also the issue of the Tyranny of the Majority - just because most people in a society think certain values are correct, doesn't mean they should force everyone to follow them.



Personally, based on the religions I know most about (Christianity & Islam) I think they contain such a mix of contradictory rubbish that they can be used to justify anything, including violence and war.

Political leaders have always used religion to suit themselves, and very few political leaders have been 100% men of peace. It's incompatible with the job!

Take an example: the Irishmen who drafted the Irish Constitution had no problem embedding a load of Christianity into the preamble; but that hadn't stopped them shooting what were considered military targets in cold blood when their military tactics demanded it.

I don't think a "religion of peace" is possible at all - religions want to tell you how to think, they want to tell you how to behave, they demand "faith" and are inherently irrational. (Maybe Buddhism is an exception - I know little about it.)

Unlike secular political systems, which can be changed, improved, adapted, any religion that claims to have a special Holy Book that cannot be questioned (which is most of them) is immune to meaningful change or reform and stays stuck with a value system a thousand years old.


Refs:

• Sharia & Human Rights
• Universal Declaration of Human Rights
• Human Rights See the "Universalism vs. cultural relativism" bit.

This is the kind of argument against I can appreciate, all are valid points IMO: I think that If freedom, peace, and human rights etc come about through evolution of a society then it must be considered that most, (bar Turkey off the top of my head) of the Muslim majority states are still in their infancy.

You talk about the tyranny of the majority. Well Saudi Arabia is an obvious exception but if we talk the previously mentioned Aceh the partial Shariah culture and regulations only apply to Muslims there. If (and I have no idea if there is or not), If the is a genuine desire, bottom-up, to live in a Shariah culture do you think "we" have the right to tell them to live like us and enjoy our flavour of freedom? I wouldn't see that as freedom at all. I would see that as a tyranny of the powerful.

Sorry for not addressing your valid points more energetically at present, it's just that there is a lot of noise in this thread.

Standman

Brown Bomber wrote: »

True enough but Mr Harris tends to be quite loose with the facts to be fair so when he says one thing it can mean something completely different.

However, it is indicatative of US Muslims. What do the results suggest to you?

I think the results in the poll are fairly clear, US Muslims are more against targeting/killing civilians than any other demographic in the study.

Brown Bomber

Standman wrote: »

I think the results in the poll are fairly clear, US Muslims are more against targeting/killing civilians than any other demographic in the study.

Right, but what does that suggest to you about Islam?

Brown Bomber

To be honest if you disregard all the groups that say they are inspired to violence by Islam, the IMAMS that say its central,

???????????????????????????????????????????????

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3IofpsHOosE

EDIT: WARNNING TO SAM HARRIS --> This video contains actual Muslims on film so you may find it disturbing.

swampgas

Brown Bomber wrote: »

This is the kind of argument against I can appreciate, all are valid points IMO: I think that If freedom, peace, and human rights etc come about through evolution of a society then it must be considered that most, (bar Turkey off the top of my head) of the Muslim majority states are still in their infancy.

I wonder if the fear many westerners have of Islam is a fear of Sharia and its incompatibility with human rights - and fear of losing those hard-won rights.

You talk about the tyranny of the majority. Well Saudi Arabia is an obvious exception but if we talk the previously mentioned Aceh the partial Shariah culture and regulations only apply to Muslims there.

And if someone doesn't want to be a Muslim any more? Apostasy is a horrible concept.

If (and I have no idea if there is or not), If the is a genuine desire, bottom-up, to live in a Shariah culture do you think "we" have the right to tell them to live like us and enjoy our flavour of freedom? I wouldn't see that as freedom at all. I would see that as a tyranny of the powerful.

I think the issue is determining the true level of support for Sharia culture when questioning that very culture could be considered blasphemy.

Pragmatically, what happens in Iran or Saudi Arabia doesn't affect me, and while I suspect people in those countries might be better off with more human rights, I'm in favour of live and let live for the most part.

However a large Muslim community in a European city where I might live demanding Sharia law be allowed (even for themselves) bothers me greatly, as it clashes with the fundamental values of the state.

darealtulip

any law that states that the word of a man is worth more than that of a woman should not even be considered to be a law at all.

Standman

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Right, but what does that suggest to you about Islam?

I don't think it suggests much about Islam in general, for example looking at polls of Muslims especially living in Egypt, Lebanon, and Palestine the results are very different:



This to me would suggest that politics and life experience plays a big role in Muslim opinion on this issue. What did the results from the poll you posted suggest to you about Islam?

SamHarris

Standman wrote: »

I don't think it suggests much about Islam in general, for example looking at polls of Muslims especially living in Egypt, Lebanon, and Palestine the results are very different:



This to me would suggest that politics and life experience plays a big role in Muslim opinion on this issue. What did the results from the poll you posted suggest to you about Islam?

Thanks, thats the poll I was refering too.

It means nothing to him - I have stopped because he insists on making things up, and dismissing mountains of evidence because he does not want to believe it.

If you can dismiss the dozens of groups that equate Islam and violence, the 100's of attacks a year done by these groups and justified using Islamic scripture not to mention the repressive regimes that sxplicitly justify their existence and oppression with Islam then you are not living in the same reality as the rest of us.

Bear in mind the person yet to be convinced of the causal link is yet to be convinced the Jews didnt do 9 11, so the very idea of critical thinking is clearly anethama to him. The bad guys must be those he does not like, them being the US or Israel or what have you. Admitting that Islam may cause violence would be to diminish, however slightly, the blame on those he does not like. This cannot be alowed to happen.

tfitzgerald

I wonder if the fear many westerners have of Islam is a fear of Sharia and its incompatibility with human rights - and fear of losing those hard-won rights.

This Is a lot of my fear of Islam sharia law and the radicals who say convert or we send you to god it's a pity that the good that Islam does is not shown on tv more it's the same as the catholic church at the moment no matter what it does it's only the very small percent of bad things that are shown

Brown Bomber

SamHarris wrote: »

Thanks, thats the poll I was refering too.

It means nothing to him - I have stopped because he insists on making things up, and dismissing mountains of evidence because he does not want to believe it.

If you can dismiss the dozens of groups that equate Islam and violence, the 100's of attacks a year done by these groups and justified using Islamic scripture not to mention the repressive regimes that sxplicitly justify their existence and oppression with Islam then you are not living in the same reality as the rest of us.

Bear in mind the person yet to be convinced of the causal link is yet to be convinced the Jews didnt do 9 11, so the very idea of critical thinking is clearly anethama to him. The bad guys must be those he does not like, them being the US or Israel or what have you. Admitting that Islam may cause violence would be to diminish, however slightly, the blame on those he does not like. This cannot be alowed to happen.

hahaha! You sound like the wife when she's not talking to me. :pac:

Put your money where your mouth is Sammy-boy.

Show me,

a) "he insists on making things up,"

and b)

"and dismissing mountains of evidence because he does not want to believe it."

Fiver says you won't.

(btw "evidence" is not you plucking claims out of your hat Sam)

Brown Bomber

tfitzgerald wrote: »

I wonder if the fear many westerners have of Islam is a fear of Sharia and its incompatibility with human rights - and fear of losing those hard-won rights.

This Is a lot of my fear of Islam sharia law and the radicals who say convert or we send you to god it's a pity that the good that Islam does is not shown on tv more it's the same as the catholic church at the moment no matter what it does it's only the very small percent of bad things that are shown

I would hazard a guess that this is certainly part of it. You say you fear Shariah, would you say you understand it well enough to fear it?

Brown Bomber

Standman wrote: »

I don't think it suggests much about Islam in general, for example looking at polls of Muslims especially living in Egypt, Lebanon, and Palestine the results are very different:

OK, but obviously based on this survey alone Islam could be considered peaceful? Well, more accurately US Muslims are peaceful?

Standman wrote: »

This to me would suggest that politics and life experience plays a big role in Muslim opinion on this issue. What did the results from the poll you posted suggest to you about Islam?

That's exactly the point I've (and a leading expert on suicide bombing) been making about terrorism all along.

SamHarris

Brown Bomber wrote: »

hahaha! You sound like the wife when she's not talking to me. :pac:

Put your money where your mouth is Sammy-boy.

Show me,

a) "he insists on making things up,"

and b)

"and dismissing mountains of evidence because he does not want to believe it."

Fiver says you won't.

(btw "evidence" is not you plucking claims out of your hat Sam)

Sammy-boy? What age are you? Grow up or head on back to the CT forums, where anti semitism is king... Your not interested in anything but "Da Joos", you have actually NOT made an argument against anything yet... I couldnt be bothered thrawling back over the inconsistancies and "quotes" you allege to me, including your "final solution" dig :rolleyes:

Very cute, but anyone who has read the thread is fully aware, so I wont be talking to you again.

One more time, the evidence of all the groups that use Islam as rational for violence.I only 2 pages ago listed groups that did just that, all over the world. And you conveniently ignored it :rolleyes: typical CTer stuff.

So if people want to make a descision now we have , on one side, the many groups and attacks that are justified by Islam. Inlcuding near daily suicide bombings, the groups I listed earlier that specifically use Islam as reasoning for their violence/ justify it through Islamic scripture.

Then we have BB who argued very effectivly that . . . Wait. . . Hmmm. . . Could you sum it up for us, please? These groups actually dont have anything to with Islam, why? WHY does, say, the Taiban justifying beating women with lengths of steal wire using Mohammeds sayings have notthing to do with Islam? These do not reflect on Islam WHY? This should be good.

Let me guess, all Mossad plants?

Brown Bomber

SamHarris wrote: »

Sammy-boy? What age are you? Grow up or head on back to the CT forums, where anti semitism is king... Your not interested in anything but "Da Joos", you have actually NOT made an argument against anything yet... I couldnt be bothered thrawling back over the inconsistancies and "quotes" you allege to me, including your "final solution" dig :rolleyes:

Very cute, but anyone who has read the thread is fully aware, so I wont be talking to you again.

One more time, the evidence of all the groups that use Islam as rational for violence.I only 2 pages ago listed groups that did just that, all over the world. And you conveniently ignored it :rolleyes: typical CTer stuff.

So if people want to make a descision now we have , on one side, the many groups and attacks that are justified by Islam. Inlcuding near daily suicide bombings, the groups I listed earlier that specifically use Islam as reasoning for their violence/ justify it through Islamic scripture.

Then we have BB who argued very effectivly that . . . Wait. . . Hmmm. . . Could you sum it up for us, please? These groups actually dont have anything to with Islam, why? WHY does, say, the Taiban justifying beating women with lengths of steal wire using Mohammeds sayings have notthing to do with Islam? These do not reflect on Islam WHY? This should be good.

Let me guess, all Mossad plants?

In other words...your taking your ball home cos' the some other kid is asking you to back up your nasty smears. And you can't of course so what we're left is you resorting to attacking strawmen and ad hom's.

I hope you learn about Islam some day and open your mind There's enough irrational hate in the world already.

That's my solution - education. I've already asked you three times what your solution is to such an epic problem, Muslims. Guess you don't have the balls to answer that one.

Anyway, peace

Brown Bomber

Just wanted to add some off the ludicrous unsupported claims you've made for you yourself to reflect on...

1. The statistics speak for themselves in this regard. Even taking into account culture and soci-economic background, a UK Muslim is far more likely to rape than a non Muslim. This is a direct result of its misogonistic, anti-woman tenor.
2. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=73966996&postcount=190
3. The vast majority of those deaths were Muslim on Muslim violence. As is the case in Afghanistan, Paksitan and any massacres one cares to mention in the Middle East carried out in the last few decades
4. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=74005477&postcount=208
5. Really you are a case study of my point that there is no sense of responsibility within the community (I'm not Muslim!!! )
6. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=74005477&postcount=208
7. In Afghanistan it is routine for women to be gang raped in Tribal justice
8. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=74035345&postcount=232
9. I did point out the enormous detrimental effect a dedication to Islam can have everywhere.
10. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=74035345&postcount=232
11. 1000's of people every year kill themselves and others in the name of Islam
12. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=74035345&postcount=232
13. There is a constant victim mentality, that reinforces and encourages the continuing cycle of violence throughout Muslim lands
14. Perhaps the most annoying aspect of the problems within Islam is Muslims complete lack of will to confront them
15. the near daily suicide bombings in the name of Islam
16. the routine killing of rape victims (by Muslims)
17. Indian Muslims are commonly involved in violence

This is by no mean all of them Sam.

If half of them were close to being true I'd actually agree with you.

If you won't support your claims it's fair to conclude that you can't. Now what should we call someone who makes up nasty lies about Muslims?

SamHarris

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Just wanted to add some off the ludicrous unsupported claims you've made for you yourself to reflect on...

1. The statistics speak for themselves in this regard. Even taking into account culture and soci-economic background, a UK Muslim is far more likely to rape than a non Muslim. This is a direct result of its misogonistic, anti-woman tenor.
2. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=73966996&postcount=190
3. The vast majority of those deaths were Muslim on Muslim violence. As is the case in Afghanistan, Paksitan and any massacres one cares to mention in the Middle East carried out in the last few decades
4. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=74005477&postcount=208
5. Really you are a case study of my point that there is no sense of responsibility within the community (I'm not Muslim!!! )
6. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=74005477&postcount=208
7. In Afghanistan it is routine for women to be gang raped in Tribal justice
8. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=74035345&postcount=232
9. I did point out the enormous detrimental effect a dedication to Islam can have everywhere.
10. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=74035345&postcount=232
11. 1000's of people every year kill themselves and others in the name of Islam
12. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=74035345&postcount=232
13. There is a constant victim mentality, that reinforces and encourages the continuing cycle of violence throughout Muslim lands
14. Perhaps the most annoying aspect of the problems within Islam is Muslims complete lack of will to confront them
15. the near daily suicide bombings in the name of Islam
16. the routine killing of rape victims (by Muslims)
17. Indian Muslims are commonly involved in violence

This is by no mean all of them Sam.

If half of them were close to being true I'd actually agree with you.

If you won't support your claims it's fair to conclude that you can't. Now what should we call someone who makes up nasty lies about Muslims?

1./ http://www.timesplus.co.uk/tto/news/?login=false&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thetimes.co.uk%2Ftto%2Fnews%2Fuk%2Fcrime%2Farticle2863058.ece

small survey, but 3 were white 53 were asian, in Britain, in that area the asians are vast majority pakistani and therefore overwhelmingly Muslim. It is recognised as a massive problem by Mohammed Shafiq, director of the Muslim Ramadhan Foundation youth group, said: "These young men do not see whitegirls as equal, as valuable, of high moral standing as they see their
own daughters, and their own sisters, and I think that's wrong. It's a form of racism that's abhorrent in a civilised society." Where do you think they get this idea of "value" and "moral standing"? Their race? No, their religion. Taking into account population they are somehing like 16 times more likely to be involved in rape.

This is not taking into account that many "moderate" muslim establishments beleive rape in marriage does not exist.

3./ This is a self evident fact, Ive shown you Afghanistan. If you want to find a simmiliar report on Iraq, its very easy. The vast majority was bombs in markets etc by other Muslims. I have no doubt you are the type of person that heard it and cognitivly immediatly blamed the US, but that is not the case.

To show you how stupid your idea is that this is even in contention - the Iran-Iraq war alone caused 1 million deaths +. Western forces dont even come into contention for the amount directly killed, even if you atribute EVERY death of both Iraq and Afghanistan to them, which is ludicrous to begin with.

Yes the people who most suffer from Muslim aggression, nearly every day, is other Muslims. And yes the vast majority of violent deaths in the middle east is caused by other Muslims (how the hell would you even THINK otherwise?)

You couldnt be more wrong, Muslims slaughter each other every day. Lets google suicide bombings today shall we? oh look, what a surprise http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/08/world/asia/08pakistan.html .

At the heigth of the Iraq war, Ill let you see how many there were, as Im sure youll have a bit of fun googling things.

To give you an idea, there were 76 suicide attacks in Pakistan alone in 2009. I seriously doubt these were CIA agents, little B. They were Muslim, inspired by Islam to attack other Muslims.


Yes the rest was an observation after taking all of the above into account, then looking at how they deal with, say, 9 11 (it was da joooos!) (we aready showed you a poll proving this is the case, look back for once). Yes, I do beleive there is something very wrong with a community that violently protests over cartoons on the other side of the world, and cant bring itself to condem wholeheartedly the daily attacks that hit the same communitie, purely because it comes from the "right" scrouce.

Again, same scource, what do a massive minority blame for their poor state? Ah the West! Not the daily bombings by their own people, not the endemic crruption or complete lack of emphasis on education within their soceiety (not one world class university throughotu the middle East) no, it is "The West". What is this other than a blatant victim mentality, not confronting real problems in their soceity, and what ELSE but a detrimental effect would a religion that is used as an excuse for daily attacks have on a society? I seriously doubt anyone here is stupid enough to beleive that believing the Quran has the right answer to everything ever (as is the case in the middle east) is someone conduicive to a healthy society.

To be honest given your history and opinions on events I would be extremly worried if I were to agree with you on anything.

Now ONE MORE TIME we have shown how many groups and regimes use Islam as a reasoing for killing, oppression and hate. This is an indesputable fact. GOOGLE the groups we have given the name for time and again.

Now tell us, why do you think it is a religion of peace?

SamHarris

Brown Bomber wrote: »

In other words...your taking your ball home cos' the some other kid is asking you to back up your nasty smears. And you can't of course so what we're left is you resorting to attacking strawmen and ad hom's.

I hope you learn about Islam some day and open your mind There's enough irrational hate in the world already.

That's my solution - education. I've already asked you three times what your solution is to such an epic problem, Muslims. Guess you don't have the balls to answer that one.

Anyway, peace

I wanted to stop because I thought you were childish, you clearly are.

To be accused of all this by a virolent anti-semite I take as a compliment. No doubt I am doing something right.

Did I ever imply I had a solution? Bet you dont have the brains to answer that one...

ed2hands

SamHarris wrote: »

To be accused of all this by a virolent anti-semite I take as a compliment. No doubt I am doing something right.

Did I ever imply I had a solution? Bet you dont have the brains to answer that one...

Just because you got your arse handed to you on a plate in this thread, you resort to throwing around filthy accusations like that?:rolleyes:

Classy.

SamHarris

ed2hands wrote: »

Just because you got your arse handed to you on a plate in this thread, you resort to throwing around filthy accusations like that?:rolleyes:

Classy.

Sure kid, Im sure BB considers it a compliment regardless.

Considering only you and BB disagree with me, and you both probably buy your tinfoil hats at the same shop, I dont think thats true.

Undergod

Way I'm seeing it: radical groups are using Islam as the justification for their violence. To deny this seems a bit "No True Scotsman" to me; "That's not a representation of true Islam." Does this mean all Muslims are terrorists? No.

Sam has, however, provided statistics that seem to indicate that many populations, both general populations in the Middle East, and Muslim minorities in the West, at the very least do not condemn the violence caused by Islamic extremism.

Dades

SamHarris wrote: »

I wanted to stop because I thought you were childish, you clearly are.

To be accused of all this by a virolent anti-semite I take as a compliment. No doubt I am doing something right.

Did I ever imply I had a solution? Bet you dont have the brains to answer that one...

This type of personalised post is not appreciated here.

Consider this a warning of sorts.

@ anyone else - use the report function rather than address such issues in-thread.

ed2hands

SamHarris wrote: »

Sure kid, Im sure BB considers it a compliment regardless.

Considering only you and BB disagree with me, and you both probably buy your tinfoil hats at the same shop, I dont think thats true.

Kid? :pac:

Oh ffs. Get your pathetic digs in all you want. It's amusing to me, but doesn't take away from the fact you can't prove many of your claims, so i take it you're a bit miffed, hence the insults.:P

Brown Bomber

Undergod wrote: »

Way I'm seeing it: radical groups are using Islam as the justification for their violence.

Are they though?

. Take Bin Ladens 96 Fatwa against the West for example:

It should not be hidden from you that the people of Islam had suffered from aggression, iniquity and injustice imposed on them by the Zionist-Crusaders alliance and their collaborators; to the extent that the Muslims blood became the cheapest and their wealth as loot in the hands of the enemies. Their blood was spilled in Palestine and Iraq. The horrifying pictures of the massacre of Qana, in Lebanon are still fresh in our memory. Massacres in Tajakestan, Burma, Cashmere, Assam, Philippine, Fatani, Ogadin, Somalia, Erithria, Chechnia and in Bosnia-Herzegovina took place, massacres that send shivers in the body and shake the conscience. All of this and the world watch and hear, and not only didn't respond to these atrocities, but also with a clear conspiracy between the USA and its' allies and under the cover of the iniquitous United Nations, the dispossessed people were even prevented from obtaining arms to defend themselves.
The people of Islam awakened and realised that they are the main target for the aggression of the Zionist-Crusaders alliance. All false claims and propaganda about "Human Rights" were hammered down and exposed by the massacres that took place against the Muslims in every part of the world.
The latest and the greatest of these aggressions, incurred by the Muslims since the death of the Prophet (ALLAH'S BLESSING AND SALUTATIONS ON HIM) is the occupation of the land of the two Holy Places -the foundation of the house of Islam, the place of the revelation, the source of the message and the place of the noble Ka'ba, the Qiblah of all Muslims- by the armies of the American Crusaders and their allies. (We bemoan this and can only say: "No power and power acquiring except through Allah").

No doubt religion plays some kind of international brotherhood and solidarity factor but I would argue that bin Laden and Al Qaeda are reactive due to percieved wrongs. It appears, and the title of the fatwa would support this that what pushed bin laden over the edge was the Saudi Military bases in Saudi Arabia.

This is from his 1998 fatwa. Again religion plays a role but a lesser role.

First, for over seven years the United States has been occupying the lands of Islam in the holiest of places, the Arabian Peninsula, plundering its riches, dictating to its rulers, humiliating its people, terrorizing its neighbors, and turning its bases in the Peninsula into a spearhead through which to fight the neighboring Muslim peoples.
If some people have in the past argued about the fact of the occupation, all the people of the Peninsula have now acknowledged it. The best proof of this is the Americans' continuing aggression against the Iraqi people using the Peninsula as a staging post, even though all its rulers are against their territories being used to that end, but they are helpless.
Second, despite the great devastation inflicted on the Iraqi people by the crusader-Zionist alliance, and despite the huge number of those killed, which has exceeded 1 million... despite all this, the Americans are once against trying to repeat the horrific massacres, as though they are not content with the protracted blockade imposed after the ferocious war or the fragmentation and devastation.
So here they come to annihilate what is left of this people and to humiliate their Muslim neighbors. Third, if the Americans' aims behind these wars are religious and economic, the aim is also to serve the Jews' petty state and divert attention from its occupation of Jerusalem and murder of Muslims there. The best proof of this is their eagerness to destroy Iraq, the strongest neighboring Arab state, and their endeavor to fragment all the states of the region such as Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and Sudan into paper statelets and through their disunion and weakness to guarantee Israel's survival and the continuation of the brutal crusade occupation of the Peninsula.
All these crimes and sins committed by the Americans are a clear declaration of war on God, his messenger, and Muslims. And ulema have throughout Islamic history unanimously agreed that the jihad is an individual duty if the enemy destroys the Muslim countries.

96: http://www.pbs.org/newshour/terrorism/international/fatwa_1996.html
98: http://www.pbs.org/newshour/terrorism/international/fatwa_1998.html

SamHarris

ed2hands wrote: »

Kid? :pac:

Oh ffs. Get your pathetic digs in all you want. It's amusing to me, but doesn't take away from the fact you can't prove many of your claims, so i take it you're a bit miffed, hence the insults.:P

Really? Look at the above post, now tell me any factual claims I have made that have not been backed up by hard evidence.

Then look at any extrpolations I have made, and tell me any I have made without at least some evidence, ie about opinions. There are none.

If your not a kid I feel sorry for you. Same goes for BB, if your still into conspiracy theories and your 20+ its sad.

Are you going to add anything to the debate? Doubt it...

Brown Bomber

SamHarris wrote: »

Sure kid, Im sure BB considers it a compliment regardless.

Considering only you and BB disagree with me, and you both probably buy your tinfoil hats at the same shop, I dont think thats true.

FWIW and this is the last time I'll be responding to this nonsense my views on Islam and Judaism are essentially the same i.e. neutral. I have zero loyalty to either but total respect for it's devotees. Both have many aspects which I find distasteful such as the word of a woman being half that of man in a Shariah court in Islam and in (orthodox) Judaism the men and women being physically seperated during service as it can't be sure if any of the women are menstruating and are therefore dirty. Both can equally be a force for good or for bad.

I would equally challenge you if you were making these ugly and false claims, but they make as much sense as your original anti-Islamic rhetoric:

1. In Afghanistan Israel it is routine for women to be gang raped in Tribal justice
2. Even taking into account culture and soci-economic background, a UKMuslim Jew is far more likely to rape than a non Muslim Jew. This is a direct result of its misogonistic, anti-woman tenor.
3. the near daily suicide IDF aerial bombings in the name of Islam Judaism
4. In Afghanistan Israel it is routine for women to be gang raped in Tribal justice
5. Indian Muslims Israeli Jews are commonly involved in violence

And so on...

SamHarris

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Are they though?

. Take Bin Ladens 96 Fatwa against the West for example:



No doubt religion plays some kind of international brotherhood and solidarity factor but I would argue that bin Laden and Al Qaeda are reactive due to percieved wrongs. It appears, and the title of the fatwa would support this that what pushed bin laden over the edge was the Saudi Military bases in Saudi Arabia.

This is from his 1998 fatwa. Again religion plays a role but a lesser role.



96: http://www.pbs.org/newshour/terrorism/international/fatwa_1996.html
98: http://www.pbs.org/newshour/terrorism/international/fatwa_1998.html

Wow now al Qaeda are not motivated by relgion, only a "lesser role" It is pretty explicit, they are an Islamic group. They may use other political issues to jsutify who they attack, but never without religion being central.

Yes we come to the root of it. You do not believe these groups are not relgiously inspired, you just beleive they are "reactive" therefore the blame for their existance lies elsewhere.

They would NOT exist without Islam, this is self evident. Islam is not pereferal to al Qaeda, or Hamas, or Hezzbollah it is central.

Any other claim is bullsh*t.

If the middle East was Buddhist, do you still believe there would be the same amount or the same types of attacks? The obvious answer is no, Buddhists have grievances far and away that of most Muslims, yet you rarely if ever hear of a bus in China being blown up.

The fact is peace is far from central in Islam, for the vast majority of Muslims, clearly shown by the poll of how many believe suicide bombing is even sometimes called for in defense of their FAITH.

It is because of their religious doctrine that they feel they can and should react to political grievances in this fashion. Again, they say this themselves.

"Lesser role" in a fatwa? It is a RELIGIOUS decree.

Now Islam is pereferal to al Qaeda. You really are grasping at straws.

SamHarris

Brown Bomber wrote: »

FWIW and this is the last time I'll be responding to this nonsense my views on Islam and Judaism are essentially the same i.e. neutral. I have zero loyalty to either but total respect for it's devotees. Both have many aspects which I find distasteful such as the word of a woman being half that of man in a Shariah court in Islam and in (orthodox) Judaism the men and women being physically seperated during service as it can't be sure if any of the women are menstruating and are therefore dirty. Both can equally be a force for good or for bad.

I would equally challenge you if you were making these ugly and false claims, but they make as much sense as your original anti-Islamic rhetoric:

1. In Afghanistan Israel it is routine for women to be gang raped in Tribal justice
2. Even taking into account culture and soci-economic background, a UKMuslim Jew is far more likely to rape than a non Muslim Jew. This is a direct result of its misogonistic, anti-woman tenor.
3. the near daily suicide IDF aerial bombings in the name of Islam Judaism
4. In Afghanistan Israel it is routine for women to be gang raped in Tribal justice
5. Indian Muslims Israeli Jews are commonly involved in violence

And so on...

I wouldnt claim it because it was not true, I did not continue with the rape in Afghanistan claim because, whilst it is true, it is claimed to be mostly cultural rather than Islamic in nature.

Anti-Semitism is not truly about Judaism anymore - it is more about the "Zionist" who "controls the media" etc etc. And whilst all criticism of Israel is harldy asnti-semetic, your insistance that a Mossad agent hides behind practically every violent act you care to mention in the CT IS.

This is not the place to discuss it, if someone wants to make up their own minds they can go ahead and look at your history. It speaks for itself.

Brown Bomber

SamHarris wrote: »

Wow now al Qaeda are not motivated by relgion, only a "lesser role" It is pretty explicit, they are an Islamic group. They may use other political issues to jsutify who they attack, but never without religion being central.

OK. I'm listening. PROVE IT.

I'll give you a counter-example. The Osama bin Laden of his day, Abu Nidal. He was secularist Palestinian terrorist. Religion was no motive for him yet he and his Marxist followers carried out the same kind of attacks as Al Qaeda for the same reasons (less Islam) percieved injustices.

Geddit now?

SamHarris wrote: »

Yes we come to the root of it. You do not believe these groups are not relgiously inspired, you just beleive they are "reactive" therefore the blame for their existance lies elsewhere.

Well if it was solely Islam then you'd have a billion terrorists in the world. You seem to think so but this is utter ****e. You have tunnel vision when it comes to Islam.

SamHarris wrote: »

They would NOT exist without Islam, this is self evident. Islam is not pereferal to al Qaeda, or Hamas, or Hezzbollah it is central.

To be frank this is more ignorant nonsense.

Hamas came about because of and during the first infitada. Hezbollah came about as a result of the Israeli invasion of Lebanon in the 80's. If you could just try to see past your prejudice you would see other factors at play here.

SamHarris wrote: »

If the middle East was Buddhist, do you still believe there would be the same amount or the same types of attacks?

Yes I do as it happens.If the Palestinians were Buddhist and were ethnically cleansed in the same way in 48' then I don't see how being a Buddhist makes ethnic cleansing more palatable.

SamHarris wrote: »

The fact is peace is far from central in Islam,

This is not a fact. FFS man try and get this through your head or learn what a fact actually is.

SamHarris wrote: »

for the vast majority of Muslims, clearly shown by the poll of how many believe suicide bombing is even sometimes called for in defense of their FAITH.

Hmmm and the poll of US Muslims I linked to showed that US Muslims were the most against attacks on civilians.

SamHarris wrote: »

It is because of their religious doctrine that they feel they can and should react to political grievances in this fashion. Again, they say this themselves.

Sam Harris opinion as fact # 9832888882322883283832823745

SamHarris wrote: »

"Lesser role" in a fatwa? It is a RELIGIOUS decree.

And is bin Laden fit to declare a fatwa? I'll answer because you'll ignore it. The answer is NO.

SamHarris wrote: »

Now Islam is pereferal to al Qaeda. You really are grasping at straws.

I don't mean to be obnoxious but preferal isn't a word afaik. I don't know what you mean.

Undergod

Brown Bomber wrote: »

OK. I'm listening. PROVE IT.

I'll give you a counter-example. The Osama bin Laden of his day, Abu Nidal. He was secularist Palestinian terrorist. Religion was no motive for him yet he and his Marxist followers carried out the same kind of attacks as Al Qaeda for the same reasons (less Islam) percieved injustices.

Geddit now?

Not really relevant, in my opinion - just because he didn't use Islam as a justification doesn't mean others who are fighting for similar reasons don't.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Well if it was solely Islam then you'd have a billion terrorists in the world. You seem to think so but this is utter ****e. You have tunnel vision when it comes to Islam.

Sam isn't saying it's Islam alone, as far as I can see.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

And is bin Laden fit to declare a fatwa? I'll answer because you'll ignore it. The answer is NO.

Well, his followers appear to disagree.


I'll reply to your other post tomorrow, hopefully, it's kinda late.