The Romans

slowburner

They never got to Ireland - or did they?
If not, why not - if so, is there any evidence?

dr gonzo

slowburner wrote: »

They never got to Ireland - or did they?
If not, why not - if so, is there any evidence?

Theres a few roman burials on the mainland as well as some evidence for them on lambay iirc. These are not soldiers mind, just Roman burial custom so not exactly evidence of the Romans coming here so much as someone using their style.

They certainly knew about ireland and even named it so the most logical reason they didn't come to Ireland is they didn't want to, they found it to be unnecessary. Going on the evidence on lambay there was probably interaction and trade between them but evidently that was all they wanted out of Ireland.

Although another point might be that seeing that they had so much trouble with the Picts they might not have wanted the hassle.

This is all complete speculation by the way, I'm sure there's someone on here who knows a lot more then I do.

slowburner

Or was it just 'a bridge too far' ?

Riamfada

Some of the burials show Roman influences alright but they are not widespread.I did my undergrad thesis on this. Looking at it it could be argued that they were Roman traders buried by other Romans or natives or possibly native Irish who had served in the Roman army being burried by other native Irish which may account for the small inconsistencies in individual burials such as the placement of coins in the wrong location in the Bray burials.

Considering the Irish sea leads to Ireland, a fairly backwater and insignifcant landmass on the fringes of the empire when all the action was heading east. Would the Roman people really have cared enough about Ireland to launch a costly war. Hadrians wall was the barrier with the picts, was it a case that the Irish sea was a perfectly good barrier against the Irish? In that case what was the logic in breaking it? Not for resources anyway.
Thats my two denarii anyway.

snowdaisy

Have a look at the perfectly roman burial in stoneyford. romans in ireland very likely, twas a woman so an irish / roman wife of irish person who knew roman life, evidence for roman traders is one theory.

no evidence for 'invasion', Drumanagh and Lambay seriously worth a decent research project... discovery programme would be good..

http://books.google.com/books?id=DgqOOkVrofcC&pg=PA175&lpg=PA175&dq=roman+burial+stoneyford+kilkenny&source=bl&ots=j9TfHwgo_X&sig=9FJkRJ_AKkE0X9jrNk3wAgHOFes&hl=en#v=onepage&q=roman%20burial%20stoneyford%20kilkenny&f=false

See: di Martino, Roman Ireland

Wibbs

In his writings Caesar mentioned Ireland in relation to Britain geographically and his descriptions were pretty good of the area in general.

The island is triangular, with one side facing Gaul. One corner of this side, on the coast of Kent, is the landing-place for nearly all the ships from Gaul, and points east; the lower corner points south. The length of this side is about 475 miles. Another side faces west, towards Spain. In this direction is Ireland, which is supposed to be half the size of Britain, and lies at the same distance from it as Gaul. Midway across is the Isle of man, and it is believed that there are also a number of smaller islands, in which according to some writers there is a month of perpetual darkness at the winter solstice. Our enquiries on this subject were always fruitless, but we found by accurate measurements with a water-clock that the nights are shorter than on the continent.”

It shows he was a practical lad with his note of not believing stories without evidence. He also mentions his surprise at how populous Britain was. He reckoned it was among the most populous places in Europe he'd visited, which is a surprise

One of the later Roman governers(whose name escapes I'm afraid) mused on a plan to invade or how he would do it anyway. He reckoned (again AFAIR) that he'd only need two legions tops. His plan was to be a pincer movement. One fleet would sail from Wales while another would sail from Spain. It was a common notion at the time that Ireland lay off the coast of Spain as much as Britain. Great engineers they were, cartographers they were not In fairness most writers thought similarly. If he had taken up that plan it would likely fail. The spanish pincer guys would have been filled with blokes shouting "are we there yet?" in Greek.:D

The Irish sea would have been a bigger barrier than the English channel. They could have invaded from Ulster, but that would have required a stable presence in Scotland and we know how that enterprise fared... Plus stretched as their supply lines were against the Scots and Welsh quadruple that in an Irish invasion.

Then you have to look at what classical writers thought of the place. Strabo reckoned we were savages living in perpetual winter(AFAIR he also noted there were no snakes). Tacitus(like Caesar) thought it was like England only smaller with milder winters, but the grazing was better.

So I'd reckon it was too much bother for an unknown return. Their supply lines would be very long and they already had their hands full with Celtic brits, never mind the Gauls on mainland Europe. Maybe if they thought the place was stuffed with gold or whatever they may have bothered? I'd still reckon they'd have had their hands full. I'd be fairly sure they had a bit of a sniff through trading enterprises and just felt it wasn't worth it. Maybe if they'd stayed on in Britain? The embarrassments they suffered at the hands of the Scots probably preyed on their minds, so the notion of doing all that even further away and with a wider sea at their backs probably gave rise to a large feeling of "meh".

In the end it seems it was better they hadn't as the explosion of civilisation that kicked off on this island after Rome fell may not have happened.

snowdaisy

there is evidence for irish raiding parties heading to roman era britain so they knew what we were like without having to come here! cant rem any ref's tho..

Mr. Presentable

Wibbs wrote: »

One of the later Roman governers(whose name escapes I'm afraid) mused on a plan to invade or how he would do it anyway. He reckoned (again AFAIR) that he'd only need two legions tops..

Agricola is recorded as having said the island could be taken with a Legion and a couple of cohorts.

Wibbs

Thats the bloke. Couldnt recall his name for the life of me.

Riamfada

snowdaisy wrote: »

Have a look at the perfectly roman burial in stoneyford. romans in ireland very likely, twas a woman so an irish / roman wife of irish person who knew roman life, evidence for roman traders is one theory.

no evidence for 'invasion', Drumanagh and Lambay seriously worth a decent research project... discovery programme would be good..

http://books.google.com/books?id=DgqOOkVrofcC&pg=PA175&lpg=PA175&dq=roman+burial+stoneyford+kilkenny&source=bl&ots=j9TfHwgo_X&sig=9FJkRJ_AKkE0X9jrNk3wAgHOFes&hl=en#v=onepage&q=roman%20burial%20stoneyford%20kilkenny&f=false

See: di Martino, Roman Ireland

There was a very good lecture in the IAI a few years back that cast significant doubt on the validity of the stoney ford burial. Personally I believe it's a product of antiquarian fanaticism.

Riamfada

snowdaisy wrote: »

there is evidence for irish raiding parties heading to roman era britain so they knew what we were like without having to come here! cant rem any ref's tho..

There is also examples of Irish place names in Wales along with a numbr of ogham stones. Cultural exchange across the Irish sea in the late iron age and early medieval periods seems extremely common.

slowburner

Riamfada wrote: »

There was a very good lecture in the IAI a few years back that cast significant doubt on the validity of the stoney ford burial. Personally I believe it's a product of antiquarian fanaticism.

It's kinda hard to believe that there could be a presence in Stoneyford and no evidence (?) of anything between there and the east coast.
My own interest in the subject comes from a townland near me which has been translated as 'the house of the Romans' - the area is rich in ore. The translation might be wishful thinking, all the same.

getz

Riamfada wrote: »

There is also examples of Irish place names in Wales along with a numbr of ogham stones. Cultural exchange across the Irish sea in the late iron age and early medieval periods seems extremely common.

when i was at school[many years ago] we were led to believe that the romans had trading posts in ireland,they would be manned by roman soldiers ,as was normlly excepted in that day and age, it is also excepted that the romans had intended to invade ireland,as the 20th roman legion was in chester[they were the main legion for invasion] but it is believed because of the renewed problems with the scottish tribes, the invasion was put on hold and the legion were sent to hadrian wall in the north of england

boneless

Of course, it could be argued that they got here after the contraction and collapse of the Empires... Chrisianity anyone ? Official state religion of the Empire...

slowburner

boneless wrote: »

Of course, it could be argued that they got here after the contraction and collapse of the Empires... Chrisianity anyone ? Official state religion of the Empire...

Patrick may have been a descendant of Maximus, a Roman governor of Britain. Maximus is reputed to have invaded Ireland around 225 AD with a legion. And then there is Palladius around 420 AD (from memory).
So perhaps, as you say, they came here with crucifixes rather than swords and shields.

Agricola

Mr. Presentable wrote: »

Agricola is recorded as having said the island could be taken with a Legion and a couple of cohorts.

Im prone to exaggeration

RDM_83 again

RB Warner thinks they may have "invaded" Ireland, linking it to the chieftan Tuathal, here's a link to his view and theory

http://www.britarch.ac.uk/ba/ba14/BA14FEAT.HTML

I'm certain I read his work in published paper form last year but I can't find it on google scholar or JSTOR (well in the 2 minute search i did),

edit

here's a paper can't remember if there was another one

Warner (R. B.): Tuathal Techtmar: a myth or ancient literary evidence for a Roman invasion? In Emania 13 (1995), pp. 23–32

slowburner

My understanding of Tuathal Techtmar is that he was born to royal Irish parents who had escaped to safety in Britain.
Anyway, he came back to Ireland on the warpath, but with an army constituted of Irish soldiers who had been trained in, or at least were familiar with, Roman military methods. Whether they had Roman weapons or military advisors with them is another matter.
Thus far, archaeology would suggest not.
There is however, the curious question of the Drumanagh finds which are in the vaults of the National Museum and can't be seen for love nor money.

slowburner

Apologies for dragging up this thread again, but some interesting artefacts have turned up on ebay.
I thought someone here might have an opinion on the coins' authenticity.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/tigh-na-heile/m.html?hash=item4162501a2e&item=280822290990&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&_trksid=p4340.l2562

Wibbs

Hmmm. I dunno, a couple look too crisp to me. Plus even if real, Roman coins are two a penny(no pun). I got a bag of 40 odd of them for 80 sterling a few years back. All found in the UK.

With these considering the claim context is everything. Even if real how do we know they came from that area? Handy to have an enthusiast have a look. If they're from different periods then more likely to be fake or planted IMHO. If too early probably a given. If they're all from the same period and it's late it might be part of a lost "hoard".

mocmo

Haven't a clue about the coins I'm afraid but this new DP project might be of interest

http://www.discoveryprogramme.ie/research/late-iron-age-roman-ireland/149-aims-a-objectives.html

Mr. Presentable

slowburner wrote: »

Apologies for dragging up this thread again, but some interesting artefacts have turned up on ebay.
I thought someone here might have an opinion on the coins' authenticity.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/tigh-na-heile/m.html?hash=item4162501a2e&item=280822290990&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&_trksid=p4340.l2562

I have some small experience with Roman coins. These are late empire bronze follis - one is Constantine, possibly the others also - and as Wibbs notes, very common. Consider how long Rome minted coins, and how many millions per year. Even if only 1% survive there will be tens of millions.

Those coins pictured have been overcleaned and are of no value to a collector. As a curiosity they would be nice to have, but only at a couple of Euro each.

slowburner

Mr. Presentable wrote: »

I have some small experience with Roman coins. These are late empire bronze follis - one is Constantine, possibly the others also - and as Wibbs notes, very common. Consider how long Rome minted coins, and how many millions per year. Even if only 1% survive there will be tens of millions.

Those coins pictured have been overcleaned and are of no value to a collector. As a curiosity they would be nice to have, but only at a couple of Euro each.

There might have been tens of millions across the empire but only a few thousand in Ireland have been found, so far.
And every one of those found in Ireland could tell a story, a very interesting story.
I wouldn't want to have them, but I would be bloody interested to learn about they ended up on the banks of the Slaney (if that is really where they were found).

Their context, and the story they might tell - that's their real value.

slowburner

Wibbs wrote: »

Hmmm. I dunno, a couple look too crisp to me. Plus even if real, Roman coins are two a penny(no pun). I got a bag of 40 odd of them for 80 sterling a few years back. All found in the UK.

With these considering the claim context is everything. Even if real how do we know they came from that area? Handy to have an enthusiast have a look. If they're from different periods then more likely to be fake or planted IMHO. If too early probably a given. If they're all from the same period and it's late it might be part of a lost "hoard".

I suspect that they are 'plants' - each one has a different emperor.:cool:
I haven't a clue about Roman coins, but I thought I could make out these emperors Florianus (276 AD), Septimus (193 AD) and Claudius (54 AD - the dude with the big neck).
I might well be completely and utterly misreading the coins.

RDM_83 again

mocmo wrote: »

Haven't a clue about the coins I'm afraid but this new DP project might be of interest

http://www.discoveryprogramme.ie/research/late-iron-age-roman-ireland/149-aims-a-objectives.html

They've started preliminary geophysics on this.

http://www.discoveryprogramme.ie/research/late-iron-age-roman-ireland/158.html

I presume this will be smaller in scale than previous discovery program projects as the budget is nearly halved from its peak as far as i am aware

slowburner

Seems LIARI is focusing on Dublin.
It would be great to see results from Drumanagh.

Mr. Presentable

slowburner wrote: »

There might have been tens of millions across the empire but only a few thousand in Ireland have been found, so far.
And every one of those found in Ireland could tell a story, a very interesting story.
I wouldn't want to have them, but I would be bloody interested to learn about they ended up on the banks of the Slaney (if that is really where they were found).

Their context, and the story they might tell - that's their real value.

I agree absolutely. I don't believe for one minute they were found in Ireland unless they were recently "lost" here.

slowburner

Placed is probably more likely than lost.

getz

slowburner wrote: »

Placed is probably more likely than lost.

without doubt roman /brit traders would have been trading with the native irish during the early years,as was normal they would have taken their own personal bodyguards with them,there is a high chance the horde had been buried in a safe place and the owner never came back to collect it

slowburner

I doubt that it is a hoard.
Each coin has a different emperor's head, which implies that they are all from a different period.
If they were genuinely lost and found in Ireland in antiquity, it is much more likely that the coins would be from the same period.
If you were to look at the change in your pocket now, it's unlikely that you would have coins from 1767, 1810, 1940 and 2012 - unless you were a collector

Mountainsandh

Sorry to intrude on the thread...
... might have to get back on to you guys at some stage if it's ok, my brother in law once found 2 coins near the family house near Dungarvan Co Waterford, which looked roman. They're safely tucked away somewhere really hard to recall in the mother in law's house . I saw the two coins myself and only bits I can recall is that they are in really poor condition, and I think there was some curly haired fellow on one, and also maybe a trident, or something to that effect.
I tried finding similar pics online at the time, but couldn't find the exact same. Maybe it's complete rubbish and they're something else altogether.
They were found on the side of the road, on an area that had been disturbed/upturned by the forestry crowd. I'll get the mother in law to root in drawers, even if it's just a remnant of trade it's really interesting !

slowburner

It sure is

Mr. Presentable

RDM_83 again wrote: »

They've started preliminary geophysics on this.

http://www.discoveryprogramme.ie/research/late-iron-age-roman-ireland/158.html

I presume this will be smaller in scale than previous discovery program projects as the budget is nearly halved from its peak as far as i am aware

Irish Times piece last week

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sciencetoday/2012/0216/1224311839702.html

cfuserkildare

Hi,

Was up behind Newcastle/Lyons and noticed the remains of the old Dublin to Limerick road, I noticed how straight the roads are up there.
Where I'm from there are Roman roads all over the place and these felt very similar.

Worthy of some research perhaps.

Cheers.

slowburner

cfuserkildare wrote: »

Hi,

Was up behind Newcastle/Lyons and noticed the remains of the old Dublin to Limerick road, I noticed how straight the roads are up there.
Where I'm from there are Roman roads all over the place and these felt very similar.

Worthy of some research perhaps.

Cheers.

There are a good few remarkably straight sections on Irish roads, alright.
However, this straightness doesn't necessarily imply that they are of Roman origin.
Quite often these long, straight sections are across expanses of bog or flat areas where there are no real obstacles to avoid.
Kildare has many outstandingly straight stretches.
That said, who's to dismiss the possibility that other roads in Ireland were built in a Roman style or after the Roman fashion?

cfuserkildare

Yeh,

In Kildare especially as theres so much flat ground, but have you ever stood in the Great Hall on Tara hill and looked along the allignment of the cuttings and thought HMM, in a straight line with 1 of the little roads up there and over rough terrain too. Same with the road up at Oughterard/Athgoe, very straight yet up and down over rough ground.

Worth a look.

Cheers.

slowburner

There is a an assertion that one Roman general claimed to have brought the five warring kings to Tara and knocked their cantankerous heads together there.
This was Maximus, Roman Governor of Britain (224 - 226 AD).
He claimed to have set the five cornered pillar stone Ail na Maireann which marked the meeting point of the five Irish kingdoms, and to have built Cashel.
see here

I'm not so sure about how much truth any of these claims might have. Maximus certainly existed, but how these claims came about, and whether there is any truth in them, remains to be seen.
Mind you, Seán P. O'Ríordán's excavations (1949?) unearthed a Roman lock, a seal, glass and pottery, at Tara. These were dated to between the first and third centuries AD.

Make of that what you will.

getz

slowburner wrote: »

There is a an assertion that one Roman general claimed to have brought the five warring kings to Tara and knocked their cantankerous heads together there.
This was Maximus, Roman Governor of Britain (224 - 226 AD).
He claimed to have set the five cornered pillar stone Ail na Maireann which marked the meeting point of the five Irish kingdoms, and to have built Cashel.
see here

I'm not so sure about how much truth any of these claims might have. Maximus certainly existed, but how these claims came about, and whether there is any truth in them, remains to be seen.
Mind you, Seán P. O'Ríordán's excavations (1949?) unearthed a Roman lock, a seal, glass and pottery, at Tara. These were dated to between the first and third centuries AD.

Make of that what you will.

any roman pottery glass ect.is easily explained irish tribes often raided roman britain for slaves, goods ,or anything they considered of value,so it would be very strange if nothing roman was found in ireland,also remember,many of the slaves would be skilled in the roman ways,road building pottery ,and metal working.

slowburner

Here's news of an upcoming conference on the Romans in Ireland, 20-21 October 2012.

Until quite recently Roman material at Irish sites was widely regarded as anomolous or intrusive within the traditional archaeological narrative of the later Iron Age. With no expectation of contexts that might hold Roman evidence, readily identifiable material such as Samian ware, fibulae, coins and glass have been classified as 'intrusive' and often considered irrelevant to dating sequences at sites. More recent excavations, contemporary research and more recent finds have, however, prompted a reconsideration of Ireland's engagement with the Roman administration in the western provinces. The LIARI project was designed to investigate fully this formative period in early Irish history and has forged new collaborative research with leading scholars both inside and outside Ireland. The conference will provide an extraordinary opportunity for us re-evaulate the settlement, societies and economy of 'Ireland in a Roman world'.

http://www.discoveryprogramme.ie/new...onference.html



(also posted this in History & Heritage forum)
__________________

bolgios

There is also the fundamental question of who were the 'Romans' ? Recent research has shown that only a small part of the Roman population in the provinces were actually 'Roman' i.e. Italic:

http://balkancelts.wordpress.com/2012/05/24/hounds-of-the-empire-celtic-roman-legions-on-the-balkans/


Most of the Roman population by the imperial period was made up of other ethnicities. The same was the case in Brittania, where a large amount of the 'Romans' were actually Dacians, Scythians, Celts, Germani etc.

slowburner

Few would doubt that one of the principal reasons for the empire's success was the Romans' ability to recruit loyal troops from indigenous populations.

As to how this might apply to the Romans in Ireland, the case of Tuathal Techmar is worth a look.

120-145 01. Tuathal "Teachtmar" [Tuathal "Le Legitime"] [numeration in regnal-list starts over], reckoned "first" Kingof Midhe ["Middle Kingdom"]; = Baine, daughter of Sgaile “Balbh”, a British king. Tuathal was born in exile in Britain where his parents had taken refuge during a rebellion in Ireland in which his father was overthrown. The record in the "Lebor Gabala" says that Tuathal was born outside of Ireland and had not seen the country before he invaded it. All accounts say that Tuathal came from abroad with a foreign army. This army, called the "Fianna", was recruited from a colony of Irish exiles in Roman Britain, called "Fenians", whose ancestors had come to Britain a generation earlier during the rebellion in Ireland that had overthrown his father. In Year 120 the Roman Emperor Hadrian, who had come to Roman Britain to fight the Picts, responded to attacks by the Irish Picts by organizing the colony of Irish exiles [Gaels] in Roman Britain, called "Fenians", into a militia or legion, called the "Fianna", and gave command of it to the exiled Irish prince Tuathal "Teachtmar", who invaded Ireland against the Picts apparently with an imperial commission. Tuathal, nick-named "Teachtmar", the royal Milesian heir, captain of the "Fianna", almost certainly in Roman service, conquered Ireland on behalf of the Roman Empire, although Ireland was never formally incorporated into the Roman Empire. Tuathal with an army mostly of foreigners, accompanied by his mother, Ethne-Imgel, a British princess, came ashore at Malahide Bay, rallied the Irish people, and, challenged by the Pict-King [C]Ellim of Ulster, defeated the Picts, who had extended their domination from Scotland and Ulster over the whole of Ireland, and drove them back into Ulster. Tuathal marched on Tara, expelled the Cruithni [Picts], the Ligmuini, the Gailioin [Goidels], the Fir-Bolg, and the Domnainn, from County Meath, and occupied Tara, where he was acclaimed high-king. Tuathal slew his predecessor, King [C]Ellim of Ulster, in battle at Aichill, then, proceeded to campaign throughout Ireland against the rebellious Aitheach-Tuatha, and defeated them in a series of battles. Tuathal reduced Leinster to vassalage, and imposed his authority over Munster, Connacht, and Ulster.
A new order was founded in Ireland by Tuathal, who carved-out a midland Irish state, "Midhe" [meaning "middle"], from portions of the Irish "four-quarters", which became a fifth Irish state, so that the "Ard-Ri" ["High-King"], crowned at Tara, could be independent of the other four provinces, with its capital city at Uisnech, which was then perceived to have been the centre of Ireland. Tuathal convened a general assembly of the Irish chieftains at Uisnech, in Connacht, where he was officially acknowledged king. He was inaugurated king at Tara, which was the custom. There, also, he convened the "Feis of Tara", as it was customary for every king to do that at the start of their reign, in which Tuathal renewed the laws, regulations, and ordinances of his predecessors, and pronounced new laws of his own to the nation. Then, at Tlachtgha, in Munster, which was the national-place of sacrifice, Tuathal called an assembly of the Irish Nation to meet to offer sacrifices to the old Irish pagan gods. The kingdom of Midhe also had inside its borders the passage grave of Newgrange [Bruig na Boinde], which contained the graves of the ancient Irish high-kings. It was Tuathal who first levied upon the Irish people the "boraimhe" ["tax"], which very likely originally was a tribute to Rome but soon turned into an Irish tax paid to the Irish high-king. The imposition of the "boraimhe" caused a national uprising, and Tuathal was killed in the Battle Moor attempting to suppress a rebellion of the Irish people under the leadership of Maol MacRochride, whom the Irish people placed on the Irish throne.

http://www.angelfire.com/ego/et_deo/irishkings.wps.htm

slowburner

Apologies in advance for dredging up this thread, but since the Late Iron Age and Roman Ireland project is active, I thought it would do no harm to keep abreast.
For anyone interested in the project, full interview with Dr. Jacqueline Cahill-Wilson here:
http://www.ancient.eu.com/news/1618/

JCW: Actually, Roman and Romano-British artefacts have been found pretty much all over Ireland but they appear to cluster in discrete geographical regions and as I mentioned earlier this distribution does appear to correlate with areas rich in natural resources. Up until quite recently bath-taking, toga-wearing swarthy Italians was the only characterization of all things Roman, even for the province of Britannia. But more recent dialogues in archaeology around the concept of discrepant experiences - as to how the vast majority of ordinary people, not the elite, engaged with a new Roman cultural milieu and political administration even in the western Roman provinces - has provided a much needed paradigm shift in the study of the archaeology of the period at a local and regional level. What the archaeology has demonstrated is that there were many ways to be Roman, and not all of these are obvious within the archaeological record.

pueblo

This sort of crosses over/links in with the Unknown Metal Object thread but here it is anyway.....I have heard from a reliable source that a number of authentic roman coins were found just before Christmas in the Nore..

slowburner

pueblo wrote: »

This sort of crosses over/links in with the Unknown Metal Object thread but here it is anyway.....I have heard from a reliable source that a number of authentic roman coins were found just before Christmas in the Nore..

Indeed there were.
See here

tac foley

slowburner wrote: »

Or was it just 'a bridge too far' ?

No wheat/grain is Empire-sized amounts.

No tin in Empire-sized amounts.

No Gold, ditto.

ALL of which were readily available and could be exploited in Britannia.

tac

tac foley

slowburner wrote: »

My understanding of Tuathal Techtmar is that he was born to royal Irish parents who had escaped to safety in Britain.
Anyway, he came back to Ireland on the warpath, but with an army constituted of Irish soldiers who had been trained in, or at least were familiar with, Roman military methods. Whether they had Roman weapons or military advisors with them is another matter.
Thus far, archaeology would suggest not.
There is however, the curious question of the Drumanagh finds which are in the vaults of the National Museum and can't be seen for love nor money.

Many of our questions might be answered if the NMoI got its act together, and allowed the Irish people to SEE what their taxes have been paying to hide.

tac

robp

tac foley wrote: »

Many of our questions might be answered if the NMoI got its act together, and allowed the Irish people to SEE what their taxes have been paying to hide.

tac

In fairness I think there has been legal issues involved.

slowburner

tac foley wrote: »

No wheat/grain is Empire-sized amounts.

No tin in Empire-sized amounts.

No Gold, ditto.

ALL of which were readily available and could be exploited in Britannia.

tac

That gold wasn't present in Ireland (in Empire sized amounts) is not really known with any real certainty.
There was certainly enough to manufacture some of the most profoundly beautiful golden artefacts known, and history is littered with mentions of gold hoards - many of which disappeared, probably melted down.
Where this gold might have come from is the subject of ongoing research (University of Sheffield, I think, can't find the link) which has hinted at the possibility that the source of Irish gold was Croagh Patrick.
No prehistoric gold mine has yet been found, and yet it seems unlikely that the quantities necessary to make these artefacts could have come from alluvial gold.
Maybe evidence for prehistoric gold mining will surface one day, maybe not, but there's one thing you can be certain of - the Romans were well aware of Irish gold.

roughneck

Hi i agree , indeed there were old yarns told of them just picking up gold off the mountain by my grandfather ,and they have been there at least 3 or 4 hundred year , and tlll the day they passed they respected it as if it was a differant place , the ancients knew what we may never learn again .

tac foley

slowburner wrote: »

That gold wasn't present in Ireland (in Empire sized amounts) is not really known with any real certainty.
There was certainly enough to manufacture some of the most profoundly beautiful golden artefacts known, and history is littered with mentions of gold hoards - many of which disappeared, probably melted down.
Where this gold might have come from is the subject of ongoing research (University of Sheffield, I think, can't find the link) which has hinted at the possibility that the source of Irish gold was Croagh Patrick.
No prehistoric gold mine has yet been found, and yet it seems unlikely that the quantities necessary to make these artefacts could have come from alluvial gold.
Maybe evidence for prehistoric gold mining will surface one day, maybe not, but there's one thing you can be certain of - the Romans were well aware of Irish gold.

I, too, have seen the wondrous golden artefacts in museums in Ireland, but there were well-exploited gold mines in Wales - our wedding rings are made of the stuff, as are all my Welsh wife's ear-rings. However, the RE did not run on gold, it ran on grain to feed its military and population, and in that regard, Ireland, with its scattered population over what was then a more arboreal landscape, had nothing to offer that might prompt the Romans to establish a working and viable colony.

Britannia, OTOH, had been an agricultural-based society for a couple of thousand years by that time, with widespread evidence of land-clearance going back to well before the building of the great stone circle in modern-day Wiltshire, even though New Grange substantially pre-dates it.

tac

slowburner

tac foley wrote: »

Many of our questions might be answered if the NMoI got its act together, and allowed the Irish people to SEE what their taxes have been paying to hide.

tac

The Drumanagh material has been fraught with legal difficulties and complexity, however, I understand that negotiations are taking place and there are grounds for cautious optimism.
If memory serves, copper ingots were included in the Drumanagh finds but it is not yet known if these were imported or prepared for export. The ingots are to undergo geochemical analysis to determine their origin.
http://www.bris.ac.uk/research/impact-stories/2012/discovery-ireland.html

Dr. Jacqueline Cahill Wilson's talk and update on the LIARI project's findings last Saturday (20th April), was a truly exciting event. Foolishly, I didn't take notes, so the main conclusions reported below are from memory.

Roman finds in Ireland have been subjected to a complete re-assessment. Conventional wisdom on most of these finds has been that they were either brought back by travelling Irish natives or even deposited much later by mischievous Romanophiles.
Some of these finds were looked at in terms of their stratigraphic context during the re-assessment, and it has been shown that deposition was broadly contemporary with the artefact.
Preliminary strontium analysis of bones from burials previously thought to have been 'Roman style', have shown that those interred were not from Ireland.
One of the most important conclusions drawn, is that the Nore and possibly the Suir and Slaney, were important trade routes with Roman Britain.
The prevailing views on Roman interaction with Ireland are beginning to look decidedly shaky. At the very least, significant doubt is being cast on past interpretation of Roman finds in Ireland.
This talk was simply a 'taster' for the forthcoming publication which is probably still a year away yet.