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The Romans

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  • 10-08-2011 11:50am
    #1
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭


    They never got to Ireland - or did they?
    If not, why not - if so, is there any evidence?


«13

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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,676 ✭✭✭dr gonzo


    slowburner wrote: »
    They never got to Ireland - or did they?
    If not, why not - if so, is there any evidence?

    Theres a few roman burials on the mainland as well as some evidence for them on lambay iirc. These are not soldiers mind, just Roman burial custom so not exactly evidence of the Romans coming here so much as someone using their style.

    They certainly knew about ireland and even named it so the most logical reason they didn't come to Ireland is they didn't want to, they found it to be unnecessary. Going on the evidence on lambay there was probably interaction and trade between them but evidently that was all they wanted out of Ireland.

    Although another point might be that seeing that they had so much trouble with the Picts they might not have wanted the hassle.

    This is all complete speculation by the way, I'm sure there's someone on here who knows a lot more then I do.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    Or was it just 'a bridge too far' ?


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,246 ✭✭✭✭Riamfada


    Some of the burials show Roman influences alright but they are not widespread.I did my undergrad thesis on this. Looking at it it could be argued that they were Roman traders buried by other Romans or natives or possibly native Irish who had served in the Roman army being burried by other native Irish which may account for the small inconsistencies in individual burials such as the placement of coins in the wrong location in the Bray burials.

    Considering the Irish sea leads to Ireland, a fairly backwater and insignifcant landmass on the fringes of the empire when all the action was heading east. Would the Roman people really have cared enough about Ireland to launch a costly war. Hadrians wall was the barrier with the picts, was it a case that the Irish sea was a perfectly good barrier against the Irish? In that case what was the logic in breaking it? Not for resources anyway.
    Thats my two denarii anyway.


  • Registered Users Posts: 33 snowdaisy


    Have a look at the perfectly roman burial in stoneyford. romans in ireland very likely, twas a woman so an irish / roman wife of irish person who knew roman life, evidence for roman traders is one theory.

    no evidence for 'invasion', Drumanagh and Lambay seriously worth a decent research project... discovery programme would be good..

    http://books.google.com/books?id=DgqOOkVrofcC&pg=PA175&lpg=PA175&dq=roman+burial+stoneyford+kilkenny&source=bl&ots=j9TfHwgo_X&sig=9FJkRJ_AKkE0X9jrNk3wAgHOFes&hl=en#v=onepage&q=roman%20burial%20stoneyford%20kilkenny&f=false

    See: di Martino, Roman Ireland


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,107 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    In his writings Caesar mentioned Ireland in relation to Britain geographically and his descriptions were pretty good of the area in general.

    The island is triangular, with one side facing Gaul. One corner of this side, on the coast of Kent, is the landing-place for nearly all the ships from Gaul, and points east; the lower corner points south. The length of this side is about 475 miles. Another side faces west, towards Spain. In this direction is Ireland, which is supposed to be half the size of Britain, and lies at the same distance from it as Gaul. Midway across is the Isle of man, and it is believed that there are also a number of smaller islands, in which according to some writers there is a month of perpetual darkness at the winter solstice. Our enquiries on this subject were always fruitless, but we found by accurate measurements with a water-clock that the nights are shorter than on the continent.”

    It shows he was a practical lad with his note of not believing stories without evidence. He also mentions his surprise at how populous Britain was. He reckoned it was among the most populous places in Europe he'd visited, which is a surprise

    One of the later Roman governers(whose name escapes I'm afraid) mused on a plan to invade or how he would do it anyway. He reckoned (again AFAIR) that he'd only need two legions tops. His plan was to be a pincer movement. One fleet would sail from Wales while another would sail from Spain. It was a common notion at the time that Ireland lay off the coast of Spain as much as Britain. Great engineers they were, cartographers they were not :) In fairness most writers thought similarly. If he had taken up that plan it would likely fail. The spanish pincer guys would have been filled with blokes shouting "are we there yet?" in Greek.:D

    The Irish sea would have been a bigger barrier than the English channel. They could have invaded from Ulster, but that would have required a stable presence in Scotland and we know how that enterprise fared... Plus stretched as their supply lines were against the Scots and Welsh quadruple that in an Irish invasion.

    Then you have to look at what classical writers thought of the place. Strabo reckoned we were savages living in perpetual winter(AFAIR he also noted there were no snakes). Tacitus(like Caesar) thought it was like England only smaller with milder winters, but the grazing was better.

    So I'd reckon it was too much bother for an unknown return. Their supply lines would be very long and they already had their hands full with Celtic brits, never mind the Gauls on mainland Europe. Maybe if they thought the place was stuffed with gold or whatever they may have bothered? I'd still reckon they'd have had their hands full. I'd be fairly sure they had a bit of a sniff through trading enterprises and just felt it wasn't worth it. Maybe if they'd stayed on in Britain? The embarrassments they suffered at the hands of the Scots probably preyed on their minds, so the notion of doing all that even further away and with a wider sea at their backs probably gave rise to a large feeling of "meh".

    In the end it seems it was better they hadn't as the explosion of civilisation that kicked off on this island after Rome fell may not have happened.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 33 snowdaisy


    there is evidence for irish raiding parties heading to roman era britain so they knew what we were like without having to come here! cant rem any ref's tho..


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,496 ✭✭✭Mr. Presentable


    Wibbs wrote: »

    One of the later Roman governers(whose name escapes I'm afraid) mused on a plan to invade or how he would do it anyway. He reckoned (again AFAIR) that he'd only need two legions tops..

    Agricola is recorded as having said the island could be taken with a Legion and a couple of cohorts.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,107 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Thats the bloke. :) Couldnt recall his name for the life of me.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,246 ✭✭✭✭Riamfada


    snowdaisy wrote: »
    Have a look at the perfectly roman burial in stoneyford. romans in ireland very likely, twas a woman so an irish / roman wife of irish person who knew roman life, evidence for roman traders is one theory.

    no evidence for 'invasion', Drumanagh and Lambay seriously worth a decent research project... discovery programme would be good..

    http://books.google.com/books?id=DgqOOkVrofcC&pg=PA175&lpg=PA175&dq=roman+burial+stoneyford+kilkenny&source=bl&ots=j9TfHwgo_X&sig=9FJkRJ_AKkE0X9jrNk3wAgHOFes&hl=en#v=onepage&q=roman%20burial%20stoneyford%20kilkenny&f=false

    See: di Martino, Roman Ireland

    There was a very good lecture in the IAI a few years back that cast significant doubt on the validity of the stoney ford burial. Personally I believe it's a product of antiquarian fanaticism.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,246 ✭✭✭✭Riamfada


    snowdaisy wrote: »
    there is evidence for irish raiding parties heading to roman era britain so they knew what we were like without having to come here! cant rem any ref's tho..

    There is also examples of Irish place names in Wales along with a numbr of ogham stones. Cultural exchange across the Irish sea in the late iron age and early medieval periods seems extremely common.


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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    Riamfada wrote: »
    There was a very good lecture in the IAI a few years back that cast significant doubt on the validity of the stoney ford burial. Personally I believe it's a product of antiquarian fanaticism.
    It's kinda hard to believe that there could be a presence in Stoneyford and no evidence (?) of anything between there and the east coast.
    My own interest in the subject comes from a townland near me which has been translated as 'the house of the Romans' - the area is rich in ore. The translation might be wishful thinking, all the same.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,255 ✭✭✭getz


    Riamfada wrote: »
    There is also examples of Irish place names in Wales along with a numbr of ogham stones. Cultural exchange across the Irish sea in the late iron age and early medieval periods seems extremely common.
    when i was at school[many years ago] we were led to believe that the romans had trading posts in ireland,they would be manned by roman soldiers ,as was normlly excepted in that day and age, it is also excepted that the romans had intended to invade ireland,as the 20th roman legion was in chester[they were the main legion for invasion] but it is believed because of the renewed problems with the scottish tribes, the invasion was put on hold and the legion were sent to hadrian wall in the north of england


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,487 ✭✭✭boneless


    Of course, it could be argued that they got here after the contraction and collapse of the Empires... Chrisianity anyone ;)? Official state religion of the Empire...


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    boneless wrote: »
    Of course, it could be argued that they got here after the contraction and collapse of the Empires... Chrisianity anyone ;)? Official state religion of the Empire...
    Patrick may have been a descendant of Maximus, a Roman governor of Britain. Maximus is reputed to have invaded Ireland around 225 AD with a legion. And then there is Palladius around 420 AD (from memory).
    So perhaps, as you say, they came here with crucifixes rather than swords and shields.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,547 ✭✭✭Agricola


    Agricola is recorded as having said the island could be taken with a Legion and a couple of cohorts.

    Im prone to exaggeration :D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,116 ✭✭✭RDM_83 again


    RB Warner thinks they may have "invaded" Ireland, linking it to the chieftan Tuathal, here's a link to his view and theory

    http://www.britarch.ac.uk/ba/ba14/BA14FEAT.HTML

    I'm certain I read his work in published paper form last year but I can't find it on google scholar or JSTOR (well in the 2 minute search i did),

    edit

    here's a paper can't remember if there was another one

    Warner (R. B.): Tuathal Techtmar: a myth or ancient literary evidence for a Roman invasion? In Emania 13 (1995), pp. 23–32


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    My understanding of Tuathal Techtmar is that he was born to royal Irish parents who had escaped to safety in Britain.
    Anyway, he came back to Ireland on the warpath, but with an army constituted of Irish soldiers who had been trained in, or at least were familiar with, Roman military methods. Whether they had Roman weapons or military advisors with them is another matter.
    Thus far, archaeology would suggest not.
    There is however, the curious question of the Drumanagh finds which are in the vaults of the National Museum and can't be seen for love nor money.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    Apologies for dragging up this thread again, but some interesting artefacts have turned up on ebay.
    I thought someone here might have an opinion on the coins' authenticity.
    http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/tigh-na-heile/m.html?hash=item4162501a2e&item=280822290990&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&_trksid=p4340.l2562
    140.jpg140.jpg140.jpg140.jpg140.jpg140.jpg


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,107 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Hmmm. I dunno, a couple look too crisp to me. Plus even if real, Roman coins are two a penny(no pun). I got a bag of 40 odd of them for 80 sterling a few years back. All found in the UK.

    With these considering the claim context is everything. Even if real how do we know they came from that area? Handy to have an enthusiast have a look. If they're from different periods then more likely to be fake or planted IMHO. If too early probably a given. If they're all from the same period and it's late it might be part of a lost "hoard".

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Registered Users Posts: 135 ✭✭mocmo


    Haven't a clue about the coins I'm afraid but this new DP project might be of interest :)

    http://www.discoveryprogramme.ie/research/late-iron-age-roman-ireland/149-aims-a-objectives.html


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,496 ✭✭✭Mr. Presentable


    slowburner wrote: »
    Apologies for dragging up this thread again, but some interesting artefacts have turned up on ebay.
    I thought someone here might have an opinion on the coins' authenticity.
    http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/tigh-na-heile/m.html?hash=item4162501a2e&item=280822290990&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&_trksid=p4340.l2562
    140.jpg140.jpg140.jpg140.jpg140.jpg140.jpg

    I have some small experience with Roman coins. These are late empire bronze follis - one is Constantine, possibly the others also - and as Wibbs notes, very common. Consider how long Rome minted coins, and how many millions per year. Even if only 1% survive there will be tens of millions.

    Those coins pictured have been overcleaned and are of no value to a collector. As a curiosity they would be nice to have, but only at a couple of Euro each.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    I have some small experience with Roman coins. These are late empire bronze follis - one is Constantine, possibly the others also - and as Wibbs notes, very common. Consider how long Rome minted coins, and how many millions per year. Even if only 1% survive there will be tens of millions.

    Those coins pictured have been overcleaned and are of no value to a collector. As a curiosity they would be nice to have, but only at a couple of Euro each.
    There might have been tens of millions across the empire but only a few thousand in Ireland have been found, so far.
    And every one of those found in Ireland could tell a story, a very interesting story.
    I wouldn't want to have them, but I would be bloody interested to learn about they ended up on the banks of the Slaney (if that is really where they were found).

    Their context, and the story they might tell - that's their real value.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Hmmm. I dunno, a couple look too crisp to me. Plus even if real, Roman coins are two a penny(no pun). I got a bag of 40 odd of them for 80 sterling a few years back. All found in the UK.

    With these considering the claim context is everything. Even if real how do we know they came from that area? Handy to have an enthusiast have a look. If they're from different periods then more likely to be fake or planted IMHO. If too early probably a given. If they're all from the same period and it's late it might be part of a lost "hoard".
    I suspect that they are 'plants' - each one has a different emperor.:cool:
    I haven't a clue about Roman coins, but I thought I could make out these emperors Florianus (276 AD), Septimus (193 AD) and Claudius (54 AD - the dude with the big neck).
    I might well be completely and utterly misreading the coins.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,116 ✭✭✭RDM_83 again


    mocmo wrote: »
    Haven't a clue about the coins I'm afraid but this new DP project might be of interest :)

    http://www.discoveryprogramme.ie/research/late-iron-age-roman-ireland/149-aims-a-objectives.html

    They've started preliminary geophysics on this.

    http://www.discoveryprogramme.ie/research/late-iron-age-roman-ireland/158.html

    I presume this will be smaller in scale than previous discovery program projects as the budget is nearly halved from its peak as far as i am aware


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    Seems LIARI is focusing on Dublin.
    It would be great to see results from Drumanagh.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,496 ✭✭✭Mr. Presentable


    slowburner wrote: »
    There might have been tens of millions across the empire but only a few thousand in Ireland have been found, so far.
    And every one of those found in Ireland could tell a story, a very interesting story.
    I wouldn't want to have them, but I would be bloody interested to learn about they ended up on the banks of the Slaney (if that is really where they were found).

    Their context, and the story they might tell - that's their real value.

    I agree absolutely. I don't believe for one minute they were found in Ireland unless they were recently "lost" here.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    Placed is probably more likely than lost.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,255 ✭✭✭getz


    slowburner wrote: »
    Placed is probably more likely than lost.
    without doubt roman /brit traders would have been trading with the native irish during the early years,as was normal they would have taken their own personal bodyguards with them,there is a high chance the horde had been buried in a safe place and the owner never came back to collect it


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    I doubt that it is a hoard.
    Each coin has a different emperor's head, which implies that they are all from a different period.
    If they were genuinely lost and found in Ireland in antiquity, it is much more likely that the coins would be from the same period.
    If you were to look at the change in your pocket now, it's unlikely that you would have coins from 1767, 1810, 1940 and 2012 - unless you were a collector ;)


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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,700 ✭✭✭Mountainsandh


    Sorry to intrude on the thread...
    ... might have to get back on to you guys at some stage if it's ok, my brother in law once found 2 coins near the family house near Dungarvan Co Waterford, which looked roman. They're safely tucked away somewhere really hard to recall in the mother in law's house :D. I saw the two coins myself and only bits I can recall is that they are in really poor condition, and I think there was some curly haired fellow on one, and also maybe a trident, or something to that effect.
    I tried finding similar pics online at the time, but couldn't find the exact same. Maybe it's complete rubbish and they're something else altogether.
    They were found on the side of the road, on an area that had been disturbed/upturned by the forestry crowd. I'll get the mother in law to root in drawers, even if it's just a remnant of trade it's really interesting !


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