A buyers story - The joys of dealing with estate agents!

Marcusm

Cunning Stunt wrote: »

Just a small question - If you make an offer on a house and it is accepted, are you not committing yourself to buying that property? How did your friend make an offer, have it accepted and then buy a different house? Is this OK practice? Justwould like to know for future...

I recall from a law module 20 years ago that the Statute of Frauds 16xx requires a land sale to be in writing before it can be enforced. I doubt that law has been updated, even through the purported boom!

leonidas83

Villa05 wrote: »

Wrong, the value of properties is determined by the amount of mortgages issued to purchase property. Given that the banks are bust and that the IMF/EU insist on the banks being shrinked (which includes them selling off there profitable operations). The collapse in property prices will continue at high rates.

Savings rates are distorted as they include those that are paying down their loans faster than had been contractually agreed. Besides a savings rate of 13% is not excessive, it is prudent in my opinion.

Auctions in Dublin show that property is down 69% from peak. As these auctions continue to extract more capital from the savings pool, the collapse will accelerate as there little or no finance available to support extortionate prices.

When this all plays out, I suspect foreign investors will come in to pick up property for a song.

Wrong, wages and types of contract determine whether you will get the mortgage or not, the banks are still giving out mortgages, just not to everyone who has a job these days. The IMF/EU want the banks to be downsized and more efficient at how they carry out their work, there is still money to be made from mortgages for banks. What do you think they are going to do, just stop giving out mortgages altogether.

And your wrong about property being down 69% from peak in Dublin aswell. The auction was for property that was repossessed or otherwise, it was not a fair reflection of what properties on average are selling for in Dublin, it was a once off auction for opportunistic buyers with finance, ready to go there and then.

jackal

the groutch wrote: »

site worth looking at if you're buying/selling and want to avoid EAs

http://www.privateseller.ie/


and before anyone asks, no I'm not affiated with the site

I had a look and as I suspected its full of people who it would seem were laughed at by EA's when they said what they wanted to sell for and decided they were going to sell themselves... "not for less than its worth though".

For example: A 2 bed Apartment in Tallaght for 420k,
a 1 bed apartment in booterstown, builders finish for 425k... wtf
3 bed mid terrace in walkinstown for 450k...

Worth a browse there for the lulz.

lomb

leonidas83 wrote: »

, it was a once off auction for opportunistic buyers with finance, ready to go there and then.

History of other bubbles shows that it was not a once off. The banks are finished in this country. They need to increase their standard variable rates to in excess of 6% or probably 8% to make money out of lending. This they wont do for political reasons.
It will take at least 5 years for lending to recover to normal levels and only then at much much lower levels than before. There is no reason that a house should be worth much more than what it was in the mid to late nineties and actually they should be worth less as there is far more of them now than there was before. Supply and demand and all...

lomb

swirlser wrote: »

Just wanted to share what I think is an amazing story with you folks, with a message to both buyers and sellers...

..

Great story, how much was it at the peak and what percentage off did he get, also what is the location?

robd

leonidas83 wrote: »

The IMF/EU want the banks to be downsized and more efficient at how they carry out their work, there is still money to be made from mortgages for banks.

I think you've fundamentally missed or misunderstood what downsizing actually means in the context of a banking system. It doesn't mean less staff and more efficiencies (although that will certainly be required too). It means a considerably shrunk loan book and business (i.e retrenchment from foreign markets).

Shrinking the loan book and continuing to give out new mortgages are at odds with one another.

Theboinkmaster

leonidas83 wrote: »

Wrong, wages and types of contract determine whether you will get the mortgage or not, the banks are still giving out mortgages, just not to everyone who has a job these days. The IMF/EU want the banks to be downsized and more efficient at how they carry out their work, there is still money to be made from mortgages for banks. What do you think they are going to do, just stop giving out mortgages altogether.

And your wrong about property being down 69% from peak in Dublin aswell. The auction was for property that was repossessed or otherwise, it was not a fair reflection of what properties on average are selling for in Dublin, it was a once off auction for opportunistic buyers with finance, ready to go there and then.

leonidas83 you are incorrect and not doing a very good job of representing your vested interests :rolleyes:

Theboinkmaster

swirlser wrote: »

Just wanted to share what I think is an amazing story with you folks, with a message to both buyers and sellers...

A friend of mine finally got sick of paying rent earlier this year and decided to buy. Hes reasonably clued in on the market (in fact thanks to him I sold my house in Aug '06 :pac:) and even though he was confident theres still room for a drop in price and a long, long road to recovery he just got fed up of rent and landlords and wanted a place for himself and his family...

Ill get to the more interesting part now! He set his sights on a house with an asking price of 325k, obviously he had no intention on paying that price as other practically identical properties in the area were listed at 275k - and thats asking. But he was keen on the 325k property (kitchen was nicer and back garden was already done to his liking etc), so he made an offer of 250k and the estate agent pretty much laughed it off (agent rang next day to say offer was declined). He figured he would see how an offer of 250k would go on the house up the same street, it was accepted!

Still actually keen on the 325k property, he decided to call around to the house and see if he could contact the owner to find out what sort of money he wanted now that he felt more confident that the asking price on the 325k property was genuinely inflated. The owner himself answered the door and was completely unaware an offer had been made at all!! While he wasnt delighted with the offer, he said he did see the house up the road for 275k and was going to contact the estate agent about adjusting his asking price. There was some back and forth, and thanks to the fact that my friend had an offer accepted of 250k on the virtually identical property he actually got the 325k property at 245k!

Another interesting tid bit, the 275k property had its ad changed to 279k and *UNDER OFFER*! (Different estate agents from the 325k home)

So, we have an estate agent trying to push up the price with the ad change and UNDER OFFER with the new higher price displayed - not that shocking tbh. But the 1st estate agent that took it upon themselves to reject an offer without even letting the seller know!! Really?!

I cant honestly get my head around that!

Sellers - get your neighbour or friend to call your estate agent and see how they are handling your property! (How long before call back/are they willing to view the property at a time that suits you etc).

Buyers - shop around and HAGGLE!! It is still very much a buyers market and estate agents will continue to say that we've leveled off and its a great time to buy, meanwhile independent experts are saying the complete opposite.

Use your own head, the worlds economy is still in the dog house and unemployment numbers here are still dire - how anyone can make a claim that house prices have hit rock bottom and keep a straight face is beyond me. I do honestly believe theres further to drop in prices, but if your seeking a HOME for yourself good luck to you and dont get caught up in estate agents lying through their teeth about the markets being not nearly as bad as reports make out and that the very property you are eye-balling has lots of interest.....

Assume they weren't liable for the EA fees?

swirlser

leonidas83 wrote: »

Wrong, wages and types of contract determine whether you will get the mortgage or not, the banks are still giving out mortgages, just not to everyone who has a private sector job these days..

/fixedyourewelcome

lomb wrote: »

Great story, how much was it at the peak and what percentage off did he get, also what is the location?

Dont want to give his address away (which even the area would, given the details on this thread), its a 1600sq ft Dublin prop, given the price range you can count on a few fingers where it might be. It peaked at approx 530k, which means the price paid was a little over half-off the peak.

Theboinkmaster wrote: »

Assume they weren't liable for the EA fees?

The deal was done privately, he may technically be liable to pay, but I sincerely hope he didnt/doesnt! Dont know what, if anything came of it. Can see the EAs legal grounds of entitlement, can also see the counter to it and the damage a PR hit would be for them...


Now to add something myself!

I went house hunting over the weekend! Sick of renting, been watching the market closely for... well, ongoing interest really. Viewed a number of props...

A new build prop in Rathcoole. Disaster of a place, car doesnt fit in the driveway, layout is bonkers (you dont get a sitting room, but rather a wide-ish 2nd hall way :S) utility room is kind of in the middle of your dinning area and the box room is about the size of a cloakroom. Somehow the place is meant to be 1420sq ft, Im currently renting a 1250sq ft and I honestly feel that place was smaller, finish was very cheap! The EA there claimed they sold 5 this week (nice timing, was drinking, nearly spat up on her - BS!). They didnt update their brochure, they stopped building the other 4 bed semi's and instead are focusing on the taller narrow design (to squeeze more in). Could ramble on, but not good...

Viewed a 4 bed semi in Lucan, marked for FINAL REDUCTION! (which if you use property bee you can see that FINAL REDUCTION! happened 2 price drops back ^^ /praisetopropertybee), didnt like the place but figured Id see how the EA would respond to this. They first said they didnt know about it, and there was no budge on the price as it was recently heavily reduced. And by the end of it, it was maybe someone else in the office who maybe made a mistake (!) and suddenly offers under may be considered!

Theres more, but I can summarise by saying all the EAs were so full of crap it was patronising, frustrating, and depressing all at the same time. And its amazing how all their attitudes changed from at the start how well it was priced and reflects the market so they expected to achieve full asking .... to, well maybe an offer would be considered.

I dont blame them for doing their sales spiel, its their job. But you had to pretty much get to the point where your very clear your not interested at the asking price and your about to walk out the door before they open up that "reasonable offers" would be considered. And the 1 and only place I was tempted to bite, I got the feeling they would have turned down my offer and yet Im betting in 2-3 months its price is adjusted to almost where Id have offered and that they'd be taking my hand off (only in 2-3 months Ill be adjusting my offer accordingly - if its still there).

You wouldnt know the property bubble had burst from dealing with them! (well, until their slightly-desperate-true-colours start to show as they see you are slipping through their fingers)

lomb

They probably get their attidude from Glengarry Glen Ross:D
245 IS pricey considering he should be looking for at least 65% off which makes it 186. But if he views it as a long term thing and isnt too pushed then it probably doesn't matter. Then again a year of renting could have got him a bigger or better located house for the money.
I reakon they will fall for another 1 year in freefall(currently what 20%+ a year on an annualised basis going on Junes figures?), then fall gently for another 1 year before bumping along at that price for a decade. Proably settle around 75% off peak.

swirlser

lomb wrote: »

245 IS pricey considering he should be looking for at least 65% off which makes it 186. But if he views it as a long term thing and isnt too pushed then it probably doesn't matter. Then again a year of renting could have got him a bigger or better located house for the money.

He is well aware of the markets, trust me, he made a tidy sum selling his 3 props in 2006. And while its nice to think you could get such a house for 186k its not realistic, not even in another 12 months. He knows the market hasnt bottomed out, but hes a cash buyer who has had his fill with 16-17k pa in rent and wanted a family home of his own. So even if the house goes down by more than what he would have been paying a stranger in rent, he's happy to call that few grand loss pa (or whatever figure it ends up being) the price for the privilege of his own home, which he is perfectly happy to do and I sure dont blame him!

Im all for getting a good deal myself, to shop around and not listen to the EAs broken record from the tiger days hype. But its extremely unlikely someone is going to sell you their house for what you think will be the bottom out price or anything near it! Even offering what you estimate it to be in 6-8 months is going to be rejected more often than accepted, which is about where Ill be aiming when buying myself. A seller is likely to be open to offers regardless of what the EA may suggest, but some may even be fully aware that your offer would be all/more than they could hope for in 8 months time and yet they're willing to hold out to see if either you up your offer or just hope that in the months to come someone makes them a better one. Thats the game!

It isnt all about the figures, anyone with their head screwed on can see the market is still going firmly in 1 direction and isnt stopping any time soon. But its the value that has no value, the pricetag for a place-of-your-own that plays its part too. If I was just trying to "win" at the buying a home game, I wouldnt even be looking for a property atm, or this year.... but Im tired of renting. The markets have dropped a fair amount (well many have, I know you can still find places that have their heads in the clouds!), so all Im after is a place I can call home and to get it at what I feel is a fair price for the times - I dont want to pay for a home and by the time the deal is done and I have the keys in my hand the prop is worth less than I paid, but I understand that offers considerably beyond that (in the region you are talking about) will not be accepted.

lomb

Your spot on. They wont accept what it will be in 2-3 months or a year today expecting a higher offer in the mean time unless they HAVE to sell. Which means that one should be looking at property that is subject to a death ,divorce, bankruptcy or some other misfortune. That may not be the one with the nice garden or whatever but perhaps the way forward is to approach agents telling them you can move quick for a property that fits the bill. Sad but true.

nukin_futs

Aren't EAs obliged (legally?) to bring all offers to the seller? I thought I came across this somewhere when reading about people making low-ball offers.
After all it is the seller who makes the final decision about whether to accept or not. And, given that the EA should be operating in the interests of the seller (and not their own commission), can advise them on the prudency of accepting the offer or not, e.g. "hold out for more" or "this has been the only offer for months, you best take it".

swirlser

nukin_futs wrote: »

Aren't EAs obliged ______

Apparently not.

My lease is up end of Jan, I want to buy, rang 3 EAs this week, none seemed interested in speaking with me...?

I'm a cash buyer, I've done plenty of research on homes I'm interested in viewing before even contacting the seller. And *honestly*, 95% of EAs were sick the day the recession was announced....

Can someone please fill them in? I'm not chasing anyone.

If your running an EA, listen in on the odd phone call your employees are taking, you won't believe what your hearing.

Sellers, want your property sold? Check what your lazy lazy EAs are doing, because my cash might have been on the table for your home this week, not anymore.

Snakeblood

nukin_futs wrote: »

Aren't EAs obliged (legally?) to bring all offers to the seller? I thought I came across this somewhere when reading about people making low-ball offers.
After all it is the seller who makes the final decision about whether to accept or not. And, given that the EA should be operating in the interests of the seller (and not their own commission), can advise them on the prudency of accepting the offer or not, e.g. "hold out for more" or "this has been the only offer for months, you best take it".

My estate agent didn't tell me that the bidder had changed his bid (lower). As it turned out, he did me a favour, but ****ing hell, it's my house. I'll decide if I'll accept a bid.

challenges

I think this is an important consideration :
Most EAs work for a regular salary. They put in their 40 hours a week working for a particular firm. At the end of the week they are paid a salary, regardless of how many ,or how few houses they sold. They may also be paid a small commission, but this is very much secondary to their regular salary.
On the other hand there are EAs who work on a commission only basis. NO SALES NO FEES!! These people will have more interest in attending to punters in a helpful way, pleasing the vendors, and seeing sales through to completion. They are more likely to work week ends and evenings. Surely this difference accounts for a lot of the variation in EAs attitudes/ behaviour/success?

zyndacyclone

Short of asking, is there any way to tell?

I'm a cash buyer trying to buy but the main reasons that I haven't bought are:
1. Unrealistic owners.
2. Bad, bad, bad estate agents.

Can't do much about 1, but 2 bugs me. Do the big agencies work on salary or commission? Is there a list of commission only agencies?

I WANT to spend money on property but it's either ridiculously priced or the estate agent is so unhelpful it's absurd.

How do I find a good one? I'm seriously frustrated. [Will supply 'bad estate agents that I have met' stories on demand for cynics....]

challenges

Another important consideration;
How much does the individual enjoy their job? Do they enjoy meeting people, and working in a challenging environment? I love my work as it happens...even though its not my original career path. I really love dealing and wheeling, and helping people to reach their goals. I dont want to blow my own trumpet, but I just want to give you guys a perspective from the other side. And as for honesty, I wouldnt do it any other way.
Sometimes, I meet punters who are rude and unreasonable. Theres no excuse for bad manners when you are being dealt with in an efficient and professional way.

zyndacyclone

I'm sure that there are 'punters' who waste estate agents time. There are in any industry. It's not an excuse, deal with it. Waiters deal with it, so can estate agents.

A few bad customers are no excuse for the lack of professionalism and, honestly, bad salesmanship, of the estate agents that I have met. I WANT to spend hundreds of thousands of euros on a house. I want to do it now. It's in cash. It's right here.

But: I can't contact the estate agents, and even if I manage to get a viewing it often seems as if it's the agent's first viewing too as he has so little info about the property. If I make an offer it's not passed on to the owner or the owner hasn't been given an honest assessment of what their property is worth. Properties described as ultra desirable have sold their gardens to developers, only have one usable bedroom and a bathroom in the basement, or are 'architect designed' (instant death, as far as i'm concerned).

TRYING TO SPEND MONEY IS A NIGHTMARE. And a few bad 'punters' are no excuse. Estate agents are in business, deal with it and learn to do your job.

swirlser

It would be funny if I wasn't trying to buy, but the fact is it's an EAs job to sell, and I absolutely view them as obstacle...!

hmmm

I agree with the comments on EAs. What I can't understand is the lack of basic salesmanship.

"Hello, I have xxx in cash, would your client be willing to discuss offers of around xxx"
"No, I'm afraid not. Goodbye"

Where's the "Well we do have 20 other properties on our book in your price range." Or how about "Can I take your name & number, and if a suitable property appears we will contact you".

I'm not surprised they're doing feck all business, someone needs to go on a few courses.

Homeowners need to start listing their own properties, because the EAs (even now) are doing nothing but scratching their behinds on Facebook all day.

swirlser

I know, zero salesmanship!! Nobody ever mentions they have anything else, they usually don't call you back - you need to hope the person who answers is the person that's getting commission for the prop otherwise they don't want to deal with you (nice way to help your company out and represent).

They never ask if your interested in other similar properties.

Offer 25k under asking and it's "oh our client couldn't accept that, goodbye", wrong on so many levels... How about you open up negotiations then? This has already happened and the very prop that rejected my offer dropped it's list price 20k and of course I'm not going back with my offer, which today they would snap my hand off.

So they know the Market is crumbling, they know every 3-6 months to keep interest they must drop the price, but if you offer anything like what it's due to drop to next it's rejected! And that's assuming YOU track down the person directly involved with handling the property...

I honestly don't know what's up with these guys? Do sellers know how their property is being handled!? I sold my house in 06, and I made sure my EA was doing his job! Place sold in 2 months after a bidding war (lol).

Different times of course.... But hey, if your EA can't manage a call back -

*get a new EA*

magneticimpulse

I dont see the point of your original post. This is pretty much what the majority of people I know have done when buying houses...even back in 2009.

The majority of asking prices on the likes of daft.ie are still stuck on 2008 values!!! Of course everyone knows they are not the actual prices they are worth at the moment.

It might seem like your friend got a bargain, but in reality he clearly didnt. Just the seller didnt make a realistic valuation since 2008. Alot of people still have not caught onto reality.

On the likes of daft.ie you have to look at other values in the area.

It is also good to see what is the lowest price in Ireland for a house in Ireland at the moment. At least in Dublin for a 3 bed that is currently 55,000...this will give you a more realistic cost for the rest of the property above etc etc.

I personally use property bee add on with daft.ie. You can see the sellers who are desperate to sell in an area...one house I have seen has dropped its asking price by 10% since june...whereas others have not dropped their asking price since March 2008. Based on this 10% drop just from one seller in 4 months, i see that there is still scope for the prices to drop...we are only at 60% now and there is still another 30% to go before they level off. (again your friend didnt get a bargain)

I keep an excel sheet recording these prices (thou property bee is pretty good at remembering it each time you log onto that area).

swirlser

magneticimpulse wrote: »

I dont see the point of your original post.

swirlser wrote: »

I wanted to share the story for a number of reasons, the biggest was the absolutely shocking (IMO) fact that the first ea rejected an offer without consulting the seller!! Also it's nice to share some real life stories, because you can read articles and have stats thrown at you all you like, but info on what things are really selling for are hopefully going to help others. Deals are there to be made.

For all we know that prop could have been sold for more if the ea priced it more competitively to begin with and actually kept on top of potential buyers, it's even possible someone else made an offer of more than 250 on it! And don't forget, anyone who had that in their saved ads will see it SOLD at 325k when the actual price paid was 245k

We need more transparency in this country!

That ^ (Get the feeling you may not have read the thread...)

magneticimpulse wrote: »

The majority of asking prices on the likes of daft.ie are still stuck on 2008 values!!! Of course everyone knows they are not the actual prices they are worth at the moment.

No, the majority of prices are early 2000's at this stage, not to say there isnt a fair share who still have their heads stuck in the sand and are still seeking boom prices tho. And no, not everyone knows that - since you couldnt be bothered reading this very thread your posting in Im sure you havent been reading much of these forums in general when threads pop up all the time with people asking questions such as how many props are they allowed view when seeking a home...

magneticimpulse wrote: »

It might seem like your friend got a bargain, but in reality he clearly didnt.

I never said he got a bargain... he got a HOME. Its his, with his own cash, no more 1,400pm in rent to a stranger. Hes happy, his business, thanks for your opinion.

magneticimpulse wrote: »

It is also good to see what is the lowest price in Ireland for a house in Ireland at the moment. At least in Dublin for a 3 bed that is currently 55,000...this will give you a more realistic cost for the rest of the property above etc etc.

WTF are you taking (PM me)? If it wasnt very clear, I have no love for EAs, but you know what, I will actually feel sorry for whatever one ends up dealing with you.... I can imagine an EA now selling you a prop ~ the marble floors in the kitchen and the 3 minute walk to the green line and the block shed with electricity, excellent BER ... and you interrupting with '"did you know you can buy a house for 55k now" as your way of opening up negotiations.... /comforttothatea

magneticimpulse wrote: »

I personally use property bee add on with daft.ie. You can see [...]

Yup, its a great add-on and yup its already been brought up during the thread.

magneticimpulse wrote: »

we are only at 60% now and there is still another 30% to go before they level off.

On second thought, dont PM, that stuff is a little too strong for me actually.

magneticimpulse wrote: »

(again your friend didnt get a bargain)

And again it was never said he did, not even by himself! Of course you would know that if you read the thread.

TFP

magneticimpulse

I have no intention of going to an EA anytime soon. The prices are far too high.

I am happy and I have a "home". Sure I rent it, but it is as much my home and gorgeous views. I dont lose anything because at the end of the day I will die and regardless of whether or not I own a property or rent it will be of no use to me in the grave....So im happy to keep renting until the prices drop to realistic ones.

The_Conductor

Lets calm down and take a deep breath everyone.......

zyndacyclone

...deep breath...

NOW can I bitch slap an EA? Please? Just a little one?

The_Conductor

zyndacyclone wrote: »

...deep breath...

NOW can I bitch slap an EA? Please? Just a little one?

You can bitchslap estate agents and/or anyone else you feel like to your hearts content- providing its relevant to a particular thread, does not name anyone in particular, is not libellous, and is supported by facts rather than hand-me-down anecdotes. You cannot tar an entire industry with a brush on the basis of your own experience of them- nor can you try to brow beat someone else into converting to your point of view. Debate is well and good- and indeed helpful to us all, however there are ground rules- aka the forum charter, which must be adhered to. We have had far too many random warblings from different people based on nothing but hypothesis and anecdotes- and very often totally at odds to the stated intention of a particular thread.

This goes to everyone.

zyndacyclone

I would happily provide anecdotal evidence or ask for recommendations based on personal experience. In all honesty, in the current market I'd value a personal recommendation.

I quite understand that you don't want to be sued. I'm also not crazy about it.

However, I'm not interested in 'tarring a whole industry'. What I want is TO BUY A HOUSE. And my personal experiences with estate agents have made that very hard so I'd like to either vent or, better yet, get some advice. The problem, as I see it, is that the best advice that I could receive right now is the name of a good estate agent and your forum seems to disallow that. I understand why, it's just not very helpful.

swirlser

smccarrick wrote: »

You cannot tar an entire industry with a brush on the basis of your own experience of them

for the record, I said 95% was my personal estimate

Also, am I allowed ask if the other person got a warning in their mail box? My insult may have been more blatant, but not reading a thread and posting nonsense is insulting to me... Just sayin'