A buyers story - The joys of dealing with estate agents!

swirlser

Just wanted to share what I think is an amazing story with you folks, with a message to both buyers and sellers...

A friend of mine finally got sick of paying rent earlier this year and decided to buy. Hes reasonably clued in on the market (in fact thanks to him I sold my house in Aug '06 :pac:) and even though he was confident theres still room for a drop in price and a long, long road to recovery he just got fed up of rent and landlords and wanted a place for himself and his family...

Ill get to the more interesting part now! He set his sights on a house with an asking price of 325k, obviously he had no intention on paying that price as other practically identical properties in the area were listed at 275k - and thats asking. But he was keen on the 325k property (kitchen was nicer and back garden was already done to his liking etc), so he made an offer of 250k and the estate agent pretty much laughed it off (agent rang next day to say offer was declined). He figured he would see how an offer of 250k would go on the house up the same street, it was accepted!

Still actually keen on the 325k property, he decided to call around to the house and see if he could contact the owner to find out what sort of money he wanted now that he felt more confident that the asking price on the 325k property was genuinely inflated. The owner himself answered the door and was completely unaware an offer had been made at all!! While he wasnt delighted with the offer, he said he did see the house up the road for 275k and was going to contact the estate agent about adjusting his asking price. There was some back and forth, and thanks to the fact that my friend had an offer accepted of 250k on the virtually identical property he actually got the 325k property at 245k!

Another interesting tid bit, the 275k property had its ad changed to 279k and *UNDER OFFER*! (Different estate agents from the 325k home)

So, we have an estate agent trying to push up the price with the ad change and UNDER OFFER with the new higher price displayed - not that shocking tbh. But the 1st estate agent that took it upon themselves to reject an offer without even letting the seller know!! Really?!

I cant honestly get my head around that!

Sellers - get your neighbour or friend to call your estate agent and see how they are handling your property! (How long before call back/are they willing to view the property at a time that suits you etc).

Buyers - shop around and HAGGLE!! It is still very much a buyers market and estate agents will continue to say that we've leveled off and its a great time to buy, meanwhile independent experts are saying the complete opposite.

Use your own head, the worlds economy is still in the dog house and unemployment numbers here are still dire - how anyone can make a claim that house prices have hit rock bottom and keep a straight face is beyond me. I do honestly believe theres further to drop in prices, but if your seeking a HOME for yourself good luck to you and dont get caught up in estate agents lying through their teeth about the markets being not nearly as bad as reports make out and that the very property you are eye-balling has lots of interest.....

mathie

Excellent post swirlser

From personal experience I think it's the old EAs vs the new EAs.

A few years ago (2008) we got a very well established EA to sell our property.
We were getting no offers even though we were the cheapest in the estate by 10%! We decided after a few months to change EA and went with a new kid on the block.

He sold it in three weeks.

We later found out the the first EA was advising people who looked at our property to buy in a new estate that he was commissioned to sell!

As swirlser says keep a short leash on them.
They're known to have their best interests at heart ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17jO_w6f8Ck

the groutch

some estate agents are so out of touch with reality that if you have the time and basic knowledge to, you're better to do it yourself

zuutroy

They're a nightmare. We're looking for a place and have recently come under a bit more pressure to get it done soon due to an impending new arrival. GF called into the office last Tuesday to arrange to view 4 places in the area on Sat.
Heard nothing so she rang them on Thurs evening. 'I'll give you a ring tomorrow'. Heard nothing so rang them at COB on Friday. 'I could only arrange one, so we'll leave it til next week'.
WTF? If I were trying to sell a gaf in this day and age I'd be bending over backwards to accommodate people!

swirlser

Nice clip, very true!

I dont blame EAs who try putting the best spin on things, its their job to sell and as an ex-salesperson I know only too well. Its the fact that 'spin' and 'white lie' arent even on the radar to some of these guys, they point blank lie about everything (some at least...).

What makes my friends story that bit sweeter is he was very taken by the 325 prop that he was willing to go a little above the 250 mark for it, but the owner obviously saw the other prop and with the knowledge that they accepted 250, his best way to counter was bettering the figure.

After the deal was done, the seller even told my friend that the prop was up for 4 months and he hadnt gotten a single offer (EA of the year award goes to......)! So he was ready to make a deal, fair play to my mate for keeping his game face on when it came to negotiating a deal for the property he was genuinely after.

It has me thinking of buying too, I must say the eurozone crisis, the **** hitting the fan in the US and other events due in the near future like the budget, the only way Id buy is if I felt I was getting a very good deal. My friend even thinks by next year the asking price for homes on his street will be what he paid and it wont even bottom out there. But he went in with his eyes open and its a long term family home so hes happy.

tsoparno

EA define the greed of the celtic tiger years why someone is still paid on percentage's is baffling people really should tie them to a set price before letting them sell your property

mrgaa1

I am in the process of buying 3 houses - one a repossession and two that someone is dumping all via estate agents.
The agent dealing with the repossession contacted me within 2 hourse of my asking for further information via their website.
The other estate agent had one answer out of 10 that I had for the other two. The other nine questions I'm waiting over 24 hours for the answers.

I also contacted other estate agents via their online forms and no contact yet and when you ring their offices such and such is dealing with that one and I'll get them to call you.

they are f**ing useless everywhere bar the first one i've described.

I'm buying three because given their current prices, the prices I hope to get at - and that two of them are currently rented out longterm - I should be able to receive my monies back within 11 years. That takes into account some remedial works to one property but does not take into account normal maintenance and also if rent out the third property I'd get my monies back in 8yrs 7 months or there abouts.
Good renting at reasonable prices and the houses are going cheaply. buying in the north as I want to look at my money rather than wake up some morning and see the euro replaced by yen or something :rolleyes:

Aprilmay

zuutroy wrote: »

They're a nightmare. We're looking for a place and have recently come under a bit more pressure to get it done soon due to an impending new arrival. GF called into the office last Tuesday to arrange to view 4 places in the area on Sat.
Heard nothing so she rang them on Thurs evening. 'I'll give you a ring tomorrow'. Heard nothing so rang them at COB on Friday. 'I could only arrange one, so we'll leave it til next week'.
WTF? If I were trying to sell a gaf in this day and age I'd be bending over backwards to accommodate people!

We are selling and we changed EA one of the reasons was he didn't pass on feedback and casually mentioned an offer months afterwards.
On the viewings we have told new EA that we don't need much notice as I only work early mornings and can have the house ready in no time as we are very tidy. I think the EA suits themselves with the timings of viewings too.

zuutroy

One of the houses is 6 doors down from where I'm living now. I'm considering just knocking on the door this weekend if I can't sort out a viewing.

Aprilmay

zuutroy wrote: »

One of the houses is 6 doors down from where I'm living now. I'm considering just knocking on the door this weekend if I can't sort out a viewing.

You could if you wanted to and explain that you have tried to get an appointment with the EA but to no avail.

RasTa

zuutroy wrote: »

One of the houses is 6 doors down from where I'm living now. I'm considering just knocking on the door this weekend if I can't sort out a viewing.

You have being told already!

Idbatterim

the guy was very wise to accept the 245k! if there are identical properties on market, for vastly cheaper, that sets the benchmark, and like you are saying Op with any price, its only the ASKING price! you want to see a shocker, see the 2 properties below!

the below one is immediately overpriced by the difference plus god knows what!

http://www.daft.ie/searchsale.daft?id=599967

http://www.daft.ie/searchsale.daft?id=584985

Supercell

OP I'm not surprised at all. I worked in sales many moons ago and I tell you, I would have been out on my arse fast if I didn't follow up leads like these guys!
I'm mortgage approved and ready to sign for the right gaff and have emailed four different agents about properties on daft and myhome, zero responses!
When I call the office unless I get though to the salesperson handling that property I can forget about a call back, its unreal how awful they are!
I could understand this behaviour in the Tiger years but these days?, I really wonder about the quality of management.

swirlser

@Zuutroy - With how hectic your life is going to become soon, I certainly would go knock on the persons door! Nothing to lose! (If the prop happens to be let out, see if you can get owners name, if the tenants wont give it out - try searching on the PRTB site)

@Idbatterim - The price diff between the two props isnt that shocking (it should be tho!), but any house hunter will come across this much too frequently. What I do find funny is that the private seller has details like the sq ft and the BER displayed along with plenty of photos, where as the estate agent who plucked the list price figure from the sky doesnt bother! Anyone want to take bets on who is able to view their property first?

@Supercell - That really is crazy carry on, can you imagine being the owner of one of those props and finding out that the person your paying to handle this is ignoring someone ready, willing and able to buy!! (You should say your a cash buyer, but I dont even think that'll make much difference).

Which is why I say this again, if your selling or know someone who is - make sure your EA is doing their job and dont give second chances, its not a unique skill being able to return an email or phone call - ditch the lazy EA fast and move on and be sure to let people know to avoid in future.

As for buyers, you unfortunately have to put up with this BS if a house you are very keen on happens to be under the care of one of these lazy EAs, BUT remember, when it comes to actually making an offer - regardless of what the EA will say (eg. they've had several interested parties in this week and confident of a good offer = BS), its a BUYERS MARKET, "low-balling" is the new "fair".

leonidas83

swirlser wrote: »

Just wanted to share what I think is an amazing story with you folks, with a message to both buyers and sellers...

A friend of mine finally got sick of paying rent earlier this year and decided to buy. Hes reasonably clued in on the market (in fact thanks to him I sold my house in Aug '06 :pac:) and even though he was confident theres still room for a drop in price and a long, long road to recovery he just got fed up of rent and landlords and wanted a place for himself and his family...

Ill get to the more interesting part now! He set his sights on a house with an asking price of 325k, obviously he had no intention on paying that price as other practically identical properties in the area were listed at 275k - and thats asking. But he was keen on the 325k property (kitchen was nicer and back garden was already done to his liking etc), so he made an offer of 250k and the estate agent pretty much laughed it off (agent rang next day to say offer was declined). He figured he would see how an offer of 250k would go on the house up the same street, it was accepted!

Still actually keen on the 325k property, he decided to call around to the house and see if he could contact the owner to find out what sort of money he wanted now that he felt more confident that the asking price on the 325k property was genuinely inflated. The owner himself answered the door and was completely unaware an offer had been made at all!! While he wasnt delighted with the offer, he said he did see the house up the road for 275k and was going to contact the estate agent about adjusting his asking price. There was some back and forth, and thanks to the fact that my friend had an offer accepted of 250k on the virtually identical property he actually got the 325k property at 245k!

Another interesting tid bit, the 275k property had its ad changed to 279k and *UNDER OFFER*! (Different estate agents from the 325k home)

So, we have an estate agent trying to push up the price with the ad change and UNDER OFFER with the new higher price displayed - not that shocking tbh. But the 1st estate agent that took it upon themselves to reject an offer without even letting the seller know!! Really?!

I cant honestly get my head around that!

Sellers - get your neighbour or friend to call your estate agent and see how they are handling your property! (How long before call back/are they willing to view the property at a time that suits you etc).

Buyers - shop around and HAGGLE!! It is still very much a buyers market and estate agents will continue to say that we've leveled off and its a great time to buy, meanwhile independent experts are saying the complete opposite.

Use your own head, the worlds economy is still in the dog house and unemployment numbers here are still dire - how anyone can make a claim that house prices have hit rock bottom and keep a straight face is beyond me. I do honestly believe theres further to drop in prices, but if your seeking a HOME for yourself good luck to you and dont get caught up in estate agents lying through their teeth about the markets being not nearly as bad as reports make out and that the very property you are eye-balling has lots of interest.....

Hello OP,

I have worked in the property market myself and I'm surprised at the level of incompetence you faced in relation to buying the property. With regard to the first property, I find it highly unusual that the EA would not pass on the offer to the owner as most EA's out there nowadays are just happy to complete the sale at whatever price they can. There is a sell as quickly as you can policy in most offices nowadays, the days of agents trying to haggle on behalf of the owner are long gone, they are just happy to complete the sale nowadays.

When you think about it, the agents fee is probably 1%, so 1% of 250,000 is not that different to 300,000, its definitely not worth hanging around for and dragging out the sale longer wasting both the owner's and his time.

Secondly I do agree that house prices will come down further, but I dont think the market is going to fall like some people are predicting, the value of propertes in general is usually determined by peoples wages and ability to pay, there is still a relatively high employment level in this country, peoples wages are not falling in a big way and we have one of the highest saving rates in the EU. There is still alot of money out there and we saw this at the auctions in Dublin not too long ago when there was que's out of the door at the Shelbourne.

Anyway, congratulations on buying your first home

robd

leonidas83 wrote: »

There is still alot of money out there and we saw this at the auctions in Dublin not too long ago when there was que's out of the door at the Shelbourne.

Remember this was the first auction in years. The English EA was touting the line that they are coming in to clear the market, a breath of fresh air from the way the Irish EA's have been behaving. And finally, the biggy, they let spectators in who had no intention of buying and weren't signed up. The 2nd auction, they only allowed serious buyers. By the 3rd I reckon they will struggle. That's my hunch anyway.

swirlser

leonidas83 wrote: »

Hello OP,

I have worked in the property market myself and I'm surprised at the level of incompetence you faced in relation to buying the property. With regard to the first property, I find it highly unusual that the EA would not pass on the offer to the owner as most EA's out there nowadays are just happy to complete the sale at whatever price they can. There is a sell as quickly as you can policy in most offices nowadays, the days of agents trying to haggle on behalf of the owner are long gone, they are just happy to complete the sale nowadays.

When you think about it, the agents fee is probably 1%, so 1% of 250,000 is not that different to 300,000, its definitely not worth hanging around for and dragging out the sale longer wasting both the owner's and his time.

Secondly I do agree that house prices will come down further, but I dont think the market is going to fall like some people are predicting, the value of propertes in general is usually determined by peoples wages and ability to pay, there is still a relatively high employment level in this country, peoples wages are not falling in a big way and we have one of the highest saving rates in the EU. There is still alot of money out there and we saw this at the auctions in Dublin not too long ago when there was que's out of the door at the Shelbourne.

Anyway, congratulations on buying your first home

I dont want to sound like too much of an A-hole here, since I dont believe you posted with the intent of causing me aggravation. But you should know that if you are going to weigh in and try give this thread a little balance, at least have the decency to read it first!

You refer to ME as being the purchaser (twice), it was my friend! This isnt a my-"friend"-has-this-embarrassing-problem. This actually was my friend! Also you mention its my first home....? Where are you getting this information from?!

Just sayin'! Not doing a great job representing the EAs! Same goes for the Shelbourne auctions, all that did was highlight that people are willing to buy if the price is right. With the headlining props on offer there at 75% off and the average prop going for more than half-off the peak price its hardly astounding that things sold (the fact that they didnt sell them all is what I found interesting!). Also, most were investment properties, so basically folks with cash wanting more cash via the property market, deja-vu?

leonidas83

swirlser wrote: »

I dont want to sound like too much of an A-hole here, since I dont believe you posted with the intent of causing me aggravation. But you should know that if you are going to weigh in and try give this thread a little balance, at least have the decency to read it first!

You refer to ME as being the purchaser (twice), it was my friend! This isnt a my-"friend"-has-this-embarrassing-problem. This actually was my friend! Also you mention its my first home....? Where are you getting this information from?!

Just sayin'! Not doing a great job representing the EAs! Same goes for the Shelbourne auctions, all that did was highlight that people are willing to buy if the price is right. With the headlining props on offer there at 75% off and the average prop going for more than half-off the peak price its hardly astounding that things sold (the fact that they didnt sell them all is what I found interesting!). Also, most were investment properties, so basically folks with cash wanting more cash via the property market, deja-vu?

Sorry didnt mean to cause offence, i was on the lash all last night and details are not my finest point this morning. All the best to your friend with their new home

jester77

What's the average rate that an estate agent in Ireland receives?

Here in Germany, the buyer pays the agent ~6% of the selling price for most properties.

leonidas83

jester77 wrote: »

What's the average rate that an estate agent in Ireland receives?

Here in Germany, the buyer pays the agent ~6% of the selling price for most properties.

Its usually between 1% and 2.5% depending on the agreement you have made with the agent

D1stant

leonidas83 wrote: »

Its usually between 1% and 2.5% depending on the agreement you have made with the agent

And that might be the answer. 1% versus 6% mean they dont give a ****e

djmcr

D1stant wrote: »

And that might be the answer. 1% versus 6% mean they dont give a ****e

But to make money be it 1% or 6% they still need to sell the house so they should give a ****e

swirlser

djmcr wrote: »

But to make money be it 1% or 6% they still need to sell the house so they should give a ****e

True true

It is mind boggling that in this Market people are still having to chase EAs. Its funny, I actually remember saying to someone that this country needs a recession after wasting most of the day trying to sort some viewings. I thought it would be nice to see them actually respond when a genuine customer comes calling, well we've been in the **** for several yrs and that's still not happened.

the groutch

site worth looking at if you're buying/selling and want to avoid EAs

http://www.privateseller.ie/


and before anyone asks, no I'm not affiated with the site

Supercell

Went to view a place today. Quite a lot of peoples showed up to view it as it was the first showing.
I overheard the estate agent telling another punter that the seller wanted 300k but she persuaded them to put it on the moorket for oooooooonly 260k (clearly small change in her mind), strongly implying that any bids less than the advertised asking wouldnt be entertained.

I had to pinch myself, had we just gone through a time warp back to 2007?

It really put me off bidding I have to admit. The house isn't worth anywhere near 300k nor 260k either, maybe 230-240k today and 200-220 this time next year, I get the distinct impression she doesnt want to sell it for "less than its worth" either, quite fascinating to see this mentality alive and kicking in 2011. I suppose the vendor and the estate agent will chase the market down for the foreseeable unless she get a sucker with more money than sense.

swirlser

It's their job to sell! She's hardly gonna say "thank god ppl showed up, isn't the Market terrible, any bids considered"

Can't possibly stress enough - once you walk into a property you need to filter the ea into the White noise section of your brain. If u liked the place and want to make an offer, make one ur happy with and don't be put off by what the ea said. If it's turned down, so what, you are no worse off.

As in the original story, if my friend had of been put off by that a-hole ea who laughed off his offer, he wouldn't have gotten the keys to that very place the other week for less than the offer which was laughed off!

EDIT: Be fully prepared for her snootyness to make you try and feel she's doing you a favour by even speaking with you when you call and she'll probably sigh at your offer. Meanwhile she will contact the seller, say an offer has been made 20-30k below asking and in this Market should be taken seriously. I can't predict whether or not they accept that or if someone will come in 10k more, but just be confident yourself that the numbers you were speaking above do make good sense and it's the ea's job to try squeeze what they can. They might even say another offer was made just over yours, in which case walk away and don't be too surprised if you get a call next week saying they dropped out and your offer is accepted... It happens!

ShadowHearth

Hmm interesting. I had a viewing myself yesterday. In fact, there were one more party that was viewing property with us at same time.

Thing is the house had a bid already, that other couple made a bid too. I took 1 day to decide if a want to bid.

Problem is property is amazing price even now is amazing too. Unfortunately it is making us to bud over our budget...

In all fairness I was not expecting to get in to bidding war against 2 more parties in 2011...

EA we dealing atm with is great. He took as twice to see properties after 18:00, he had no problem with that.

So far I was dealing with 4 EA. 3 of them were brilliant. Arranging viewings and getting information was super easy and fast. Very helpful and realistic with listed prices. They would tell me in front what sort of offers can get this property and not stupid listed prices that some owners force EA to put up. The ather EA was good too, but I did not had enough time to deal with him, so I can't say much about him.


I hear these horror stories, but I get very very lucky with EAs so far myself. There is defiantly good EA out there, but I bet there are good few idiots too.

Cunning Stunt

swirlser wrote: »

There was some back and forth, and thanks to the fact that my friend had an offer accepted of 250k on the virtually identical property he actually got the 325k property at 245k!

Just a small question - If you make an offer on a house and it is accepted, are you not committing yourself to buying that property? How did your friend make an offer, have it accepted and then buy a different house? Is this OK practice? Justwould like to know for future...

leonidas83

Cunning Stunt wrote: »

Just a small question - If you make an offer on a house and it is accepted, are you not committing yourself to buying that property? How did your friend make an offer, have it accepted and then buy a different house? Is this OK practice? Justwould like to know for future...

No you are not commiting yourself to buying the property, you will be required to put down a deposit but this is refundable if you cant get finance from the bank or you change your mind. You are only committed once sale has been agreed and all relevant documentation is signed

swirlser

Cunning Stunt wrote: »

Just a small question - If you make an offer on a house and it is accepted, are you not committing yourself to buying that property? How did your friend make an offer, have it accepted and then buy a different house? Is this OK practice? Justwould like to know for future...

He approached the owner of the other house days after having the offer accepted on the house with the cheaper list price. At that point things were only verbal, but buying a property takes months and people pull out all the time.

As far as it being OK practice, you shouldn't really be making an offer if your not genuinely interested in going through with it. My friend was prepared to buy that house, but would have preferred the 325 prop as the kitchen and back garden were already done to a high standard and it just meant less for him to do, so with nothing to lose and a bit of luck he called to the guys door to be greeted by the owner.

I wanted to share the story for a number of reasons, the biggest was the absolutely shocking (IMO) fact that the first ea rejected an offer without consulting the seller!! Also it's nice to share some real life stories, because you can read articles and have stats thrown at you all you like, but info on what things are really selling for are hopefully going to help others. Deals are there to be made.

For all we know that prop could have been sold for more if the ea priced it more competitively to begin with and actually kept on top of potential buyers, it's even possible someone else made an offer of more than 250 on it! And don't forget, anyone who had that in their saved ads will see it SOLD at 325k when the actual price paid was 245k

We need more transparency in this country!

Villa05

leonidas83 wrote: »

Secondly I do agree that house prices will come down further, but I dont think the market is going to fall like some people are predicting, the value of propertes in general is usually determined by peoples wages and ability to pay, there is still a relatively high employment level in this country, peoples wages are not falling in a big way and we have one of the highest saving rates in the EU. There is still alot of money out there and we saw this at the auctions in Dublin not too long ago when there was que's out of the door at the Shelbourne.

Wrong, the value of properties is determined by the amount of mortgages issued to purchase property. Given that the banks are bust and that the IMF/EU insist on the banks being shrinked (which includes them selling off there profitable operations). The collapse in property prices will continue at high rates.

Savings rates are distorted as they include those that are paying down their loans faster than had been contractually agreed. Besides a savings rate of 13% is not excessive, it is prudent in my opinion.

Auctions in Dublin show that property is down 69% from peak. As these auctions continue to extract more capital from the savings pool, the collapse will accelerate as there little or no finance available to support extortionate prices.

When this all plays out, I suspect foreign investors will come in to pick up property for a song.

Marcusm

Cunning Stunt wrote: »

Just a small question - If you make an offer on a house and it is accepted, are you not committing yourself to buying that property? How did your friend make an offer, have it accepted and then buy a different house? Is this OK practice? Justwould like to know for future...

I recall from a law module 20 years ago that the Statute of Frauds 16xx requires a land sale to be in writing before it can be enforced. I doubt that law has been updated, even through the purported boom!

leonidas83

Villa05 wrote: »

Wrong, the value of properties is determined by the amount of mortgages issued to purchase property. Given that the banks are bust and that the IMF/EU insist on the banks being shrinked (which includes them selling off there profitable operations). The collapse in property prices will continue at high rates.

Savings rates are distorted as they include those that are paying down their loans faster than had been contractually agreed. Besides a savings rate of 13% is not excessive, it is prudent in my opinion.

Auctions in Dublin show that property is down 69% from peak. As these auctions continue to extract more capital from the savings pool, the collapse will accelerate as there little or no finance available to support extortionate prices.

When this all plays out, I suspect foreign investors will come in to pick up property for a song.

Wrong, wages and types of contract determine whether you will get the mortgage or not, the banks are still giving out mortgages, just not to everyone who has a job these days. The IMF/EU want the banks to be downsized and more efficient at how they carry out their work, there is still money to be made from mortgages for banks. What do you think they are going to do, just stop giving out mortgages altogether.

And your wrong about property being down 69% from peak in Dublin aswell. The auction was for property that was repossessed or otherwise, it was not a fair reflection of what properties on average are selling for in Dublin, it was a once off auction for opportunistic buyers with finance, ready to go there and then.

jackal

the groutch wrote: »

site worth looking at if you're buying/selling and want to avoid EAs

http://www.privateseller.ie/


and before anyone asks, no I'm not affiated with the site

I had a look and as I suspected its full of people who it would seem were laughed at by EA's when they said what they wanted to sell for and decided they were going to sell themselves... "not for less than its worth though".

For example: A 2 bed Apartment in Tallaght for 420k,
a 1 bed apartment in booterstown, builders finish for 425k... wtf
3 bed mid terrace in walkinstown for 450k...

Worth a browse there for the lulz.

lomb

leonidas83 wrote: »

, it was a once off auction for opportunistic buyers with finance, ready to go there and then.

History of other bubbles shows that it was not a once off. The banks are finished in this country. They need to increase their standard variable rates to in excess of 6% or probably 8% to make money out of lending. This they wont do for political reasons.
It will take at least 5 years for lending to recover to normal levels and only then at much much lower levels than before. There is no reason that a house should be worth much more than what it was in the mid to late nineties and actually they should be worth less as there is far more of them now than there was before. Supply and demand and all...

lomb

swirlser wrote: »

Just wanted to share what I think is an amazing story with you folks, with a message to both buyers and sellers...

..

Great story, how much was it at the peak and what percentage off did he get, also what is the location?

robd

leonidas83 wrote: »

The IMF/EU want the banks to be downsized and more efficient at how they carry out their work, there is still money to be made from mortgages for banks.

I think you've fundamentally missed or misunderstood what downsizing actually means in the context of a banking system. It doesn't mean less staff and more efficiencies (although that will certainly be required too). It means a considerably shrunk loan book and business (i.e retrenchment from foreign markets).

Shrinking the loan book and continuing to give out new mortgages are at odds with one another.

Theboinkmaster

leonidas83 wrote: »

Wrong, wages and types of contract determine whether you will get the mortgage or not, the banks are still giving out mortgages, just not to everyone who has a job these days. The IMF/EU want the banks to be downsized and more efficient at how they carry out their work, there is still money to be made from mortgages for banks. What do you think they are going to do, just stop giving out mortgages altogether.

And your wrong about property being down 69% from peak in Dublin aswell. The auction was for property that was repossessed or otherwise, it was not a fair reflection of what properties on average are selling for in Dublin, it was a once off auction for opportunistic buyers with finance, ready to go there and then.

leonidas83 you are incorrect and not doing a very good job of representing your vested interests :rolleyes:

Theboinkmaster

swirlser wrote: »

Just wanted to share what I think is an amazing story with you folks, with a message to both buyers and sellers...

A friend of mine finally got sick of paying rent earlier this year and decided to buy. Hes reasonably clued in on the market (in fact thanks to him I sold my house in Aug '06 :pac:) and even though he was confident theres still room for a drop in price and a long, long road to recovery he just got fed up of rent and landlords and wanted a place for himself and his family...

Ill get to the more interesting part now! He set his sights on a house with an asking price of 325k, obviously he had no intention on paying that price as other practically identical properties in the area were listed at 275k - and thats asking. But he was keen on the 325k property (kitchen was nicer and back garden was already done to his liking etc), so he made an offer of 250k and the estate agent pretty much laughed it off (agent rang next day to say offer was declined). He figured he would see how an offer of 250k would go on the house up the same street, it was accepted!

Still actually keen on the 325k property, he decided to call around to the house and see if he could contact the owner to find out what sort of money he wanted now that he felt more confident that the asking price on the 325k property was genuinely inflated. The owner himself answered the door and was completely unaware an offer had been made at all!! While he wasnt delighted with the offer, he said he did see the house up the road for 275k and was going to contact the estate agent about adjusting his asking price. There was some back and forth, and thanks to the fact that my friend had an offer accepted of 250k on the virtually identical property he actually got the 325k property at 245k!

Another interesting tid bit, the 275k property had its ad changed to 279k and *UNDER OFFER*! (Different estate agents from the 325k home)

So, we have an estate agent trying to push up the price with the ad change and UNDER OFFER with the new higher price displayed - not that shocking tbh. But the 1st estate agent that took it upon themselves to reject an offer without even letting the seller know!! Really?!

I cant honestly get my head around that!

Sellers - get your neighbour or friend to call your estate agent and see how they are handling your property! (How long before call back/are they willing to view the property at a time that suits you etc).

Buyers - shop around and HAGGLE!! It is still very much a buyers market and estate agents will continue to say that we've leveled off and its a great time to buy, meanwhile independent experts are saying the complete opposite.

Use your own head, the worlds economy is still in the dog house and unemployment numbers here are still dire - how anyone can make a claim that house prices have hit rock bottom and keep a straight face is beyond me. I do honestly believe theres further to drop in prices, but if your seeking a HOME for yourself good luck to you and dont get caught up in estate agents lying through their teeth about the markets being not nearly as bad as reports make out and that the very property you are eye-balling has lots of interest.....

Assume they weren't liable for the EA fees?

swirlser

leonidas83 wrote: »

Wrong, wages and types of contract determine whether you will get the mortgage or not, the banks are still giving out mortgages, just not to everyone who has a private sector job these days..

/fixedyourewelcome

lomb wrote: »

Great story, how much was it at the peak and what percentage off did he get, also what is the location?

Dont want to give his address away (which even the area would, given the details on this thread), its a 1600sq ft Dublin prop, given the price range you can count on a few fingers where it might be. It peaked at approx 530k, which means the price paid was a little over half-off the peak.

Theboinkmaster wrote: »

Assume they weren't liable for the EA fees?

The deal was done privately, he may technically be liable to pay, but I sincerely hope he didnt/doesnt! Dont know what, if anything came of it. Can see the EAs legal grounds of entitlement, can also see the counter to it and the damage a PR hit would be for them...


Now to add something myself!

I went house hunting over the weekend! Sick of renting, been watching the market closely for... well, ongoing interest really. Viewed a number of props...

A new build prop in Rathcoole. Disaster of a place, car doesnt fit in the driveway, layout is bonkers (you dont get a sitting room, but rather a wide-ish 2nd hall way :S) utility room is kind of in the middle of your dinning area and the box room is about the size of a cloakroom. Somehow the place is meant to be 1420sq ft, Im currently renting a 1250sq ft and I honestly feel that place was smaller, finish was very cheap! The EA there claimed they sold 5 this week (nice timing, was drinking, nearly spat up on her - BS!). They didnt update their brochure, they stopped building the other 4 bed semi's and instead are focusing on the taller narrow design (to squeeze more in). Could ramble on, but not good...

Viewed a 4 bed semi in Lucan, marked for FINAL REDUCTION! (which if you use property bee you can see that FINAL REDUCTION! happened 2 price drops back ^^ /praisetopropertybee), didnt like the place but figured Id see how the EA would respond to this. They first said they didnt know about it, and there was no budge on the price as it was recently heavily reduced. And by the end of it, it was maybe someone else in the office who maybe made a mistake (!) and suddenly offers under may be considered!

Theres more, but I can summarise by saying all the EAs were so full of crap it was patronising, frustrating, and depressing all at the same time. And its amazing how all their attitudes changed from at the start how well it was priced and reflects the market so they expected to achieve full asking .... to, well maybe an offer would be considered.

I dont blame them for doing their sales spiel, its their job. But you had to pretty much get to the point where your very clear your not interested at the asking price and your about to walk out the door before they open up that "reasonable offers" would be considered. And the 1 and only place I was tempted to bite, I got the feeling they would have turned down my offer and yet Im betting in 2-3 months its price is adjusted to almost where Id have offered and that they'd be taking my hand off (only in 2-3 months Ill be adjusting my offer accordingly - if its still there).

You wouldnt know the property bubble had burst from dealing with them! (well, until their slightly-desperate-true-colours start to show as they see you are slipping through their fingers)

lomb

They probably get their attidude from Glengarry Glen Ross:D
245 IS pricey considering he should be looking for at least 65% off which makes it 186. But if he views it as a long term thing and isnt too pushed then it probably doesn't matter. Then again a year of renting could have got him a bigger or better located house for the money.
I reakon they will fall for another 1 year in freefall(currently what 20%+ a year on an annualised basis going on Junes figures?), then fall gently for another 1 year before bumping along at that price for a decade. Proably settle around 75% off peak.

swirlser

lomb wrote: »

245 IS pricey considering he should be looking for at least 65% off which makes it 186. But if he views it as a long term thing and isnt too pushed then it probably doesn't matter. Then again a year of renting could have got him a bigger or better located house for the money.

He is well aware of the markets, trust me, he made a tidy sum selling his 3 props in 2006. And while its nice to think you could get such a house for 186k its not realistic, not even in another 12 months. He knows the market hasnt bottomed out, but hes a cash buyer who has had his fill with 16-17k pa in rent and wanted a family home of his own. So even if the house goes down by more than what he would have been paying a stranger in rent, he's happy to call that few grand loss pa (or whatever figure it ends up being) the price for the privilege of his own home, which he is perfectly happy to do and I sure dont blame him!

Im all for getting a good deal myself, to shop around and not listen to the EAs broken record from the tiger days hype. But its extremely unlikely someone is going to sell you their house for what you think will be the bottom out price or anything near it! Even offering what you estimate it to be in 6-8 months is going to be rejected more often than accepted, which is about where Ill be aiming when buying myself. A seller is likely to be open to offers regardless of what the EA may suggest, but some may even be fully aware that your offer would be all/more than they could hope for in 8 months time and yet they're willing to hold out to see if either you up your offer or just hope that in the months to come someone makes them a better one. Thats the game!

It isnt all about the figures, anyone with their head screwed on can see the market is still going firmly in 1 direction and isnt stopping any time soon. But its the value that has no value, the pricetag for a place-of-your-own that plays its part too. If I was just trying to "win" at the buying a home game, I wouldnt even be looking for a property atm, or this year.... but Im tired of renting. The markets have dropped a fair amount (well many have, I know you can still find places that have their heads in the clouds!), so all Im after is a place I can call home and to get it at what I feel is a fair price for the times - I dont want to pay for a home and by the time the deal is done and I have the keys in my hand the prop is worth less than I paid, but I understand that offers considerably beyond that (in the region you are talking about) will not be accepted.

lomb

Your spot on. They wont accept what it will be in 2-3 months or a year today expecting a higher offer in the mean time unless they HAVE to sell. Which means that one should be looking at property that is subject to a death ,divorce, bankruptcy or some other misfortune. That may not be the one with the nice garden or whatever but perhaps the way forward is to approach agents telling them you can move quick for a property that fits the bill. Sad but true.

nukin_futs

Aren't EAs obliged (legally?) to bring all offers to the seller? I thought I came across this somewhere when reading about people making low-ball offers.
After all it is the seller who makes the final decision about whether to accept or not. And, given that the EA should be operating in the interests of the seller (and not their own commission), can advise them on the prudency of accepting the offer or not, e.g. "hold out for more" or "this has been the only offer for months, you best take it".

swirlser

nukin_futs wrote: »

Aren't EAs obliged ______

Apparently not.

My lease is up end of Jan, I want to buy, rang 3 EAs this week, none seemed interested in speaking with me...?

I'm a cash buyer, I've done plenty of research on homes I'm interested in viewing before even contacting the seller. And *honestly*, 95% of EAs were sick the day the recession was announced....

Can someone please fill them in? I'm not chasing anyone.

If your running an EA, listen in on the odd phone call your employees are taking, you won't believe what your hearing.

Sellers, want your property sold? Check what your lazy lazy EAs are doing, because my cash might have been on the table for your home this week, not anymore.

Snakeblood

nukin_futs wrote: »

Aren't EAs obliged (legally?) to bring all offers to the seller? I thought I came across this somewhere when reading about people making low-ball offers.
After all it is the seller who makes the final decision about whether to accept or not. And, given that the EA should be operating in the interests of the seller (and not their own commission), can advise them on the prudency of accepting the offer or not, e.g. "hold out for more" or "this has been the only offer for months, you best take it".

My estate agent didn't tell me that the bidder had changed his bid (lower). As it turned out, he did me a favour, but ****ing hell, it's my house. I'll decide if I'll accept a bid.

challenges

I think this is an important consideration :
Most EAs work for a regular salary. They put in their 40 hours a week working for a particular firm. At the end of the week they are paid a salary, regardless of how many ,or how few houses they sold. They may also be paid a small commission, but this is very much secondary to their regular salary.
On the other hand there are EAs who work on a commission only basis. NO SALES NO FEES!! These people will have more interest in attending to punters in a helpful way, pleasing the vendors, and seeing sales through to completion. They are more likely to work week ends and evenings. Surely this difference accounts for a lot of the variation in EAs attitudes/ behaviour/success?

zyndacyclone

Short of asking, is there any way to tell?

I'm a cash buyer trying to buy but the main reasons that I haven't bought are:
1. Unrealistic owners.
2. Bad, bad, bad estate agents.

Can't do much about 1, but 2 bugs me. Do the big agencies work on salary or commission? Is there a list of commission only agencies?

I WANT to spend money on property but it's either ridiculously priced or the estate agent is so unhelpful it's absurd.

How do I find a good one? I'm seriously frustrated. [Will supply 'bad estate agents that I have met' stories on demand for cynics....]

challenges

Another important consideration;
How much does the individual enjoy their job? Do they enjoy meeting people, and working in a challenging environment? I love my work as it happens...even though its not my original career path. I really love dealing and wheeling, and helping people to reach their goals. I dont want to blow my own trumpet, but I just want to give you guys a perspective from the other side. And as for honesty, I wouldnt do it any other way.
Sometimes, I meet punters who are rude and unreasonable. Theres no excuse for bad manners when you are being dealt with in an efficient and professional way.

zyndacyclone

I'm sure that there are 'punters' who waste estate agents time. There are in any industry. It's not an excuse, deal with it. Waiters deal with it, so can estate agents.

A few bad customers are no excuse for the lack of professionalism and, honestly, bad salesmanship, of the estate agents that I have met. I WANT to spend hundreds of thousands of euros on a house. I want to do it now. It's in cash. It's right here.

But: I can't contact the estate agents, and even if I manage to get a viewing it often seems as if it's the agent's first viewing too as he has so little info about the property. If I make an offer it's not passed on to the owner or the owner hasn't been given an honest assessment of what their property is worth. Properties described as ultra desirable have sold their gardens to developers, only have one usable bedroom and a bathroom in the basement, or are 'architect designed' (instant death, as far as i'm concerned).

TRYING TO SPEND MONEY IS A NIGHTMARE. And a few bad 'punters' are no excuse. Estate agents are in business, deal with it and learn to do your job.

swirlser

It would be funny if I wasn't trying to buy, but the fact is it's an EAs job to sell, and I absolutely view them as obstacle...!