would the gardai be able to cope?

drill

Just a quick question on the riots, what do the red/yellow/White shoulder markings on riot police stand for ?

Zambia

dev100 wrote: »

Somali isnt a good example.

You are right its disgusting whats going on over there. It shouldnt be allowed but you have to look at why or how this happened in a civil society. Even middle eastern governments cant quell unrest with lethal force.

You are entering a world of poop letting the cops off the leash.

I never mentioned lethal force. But I like the way your thinking

donkeydc

flas wrote: »

genuinely think that if a simular situation cropped up in say dublin, in the many different parts of the city that the gardai would be very stretched and maybe lose a handle on the situation, just like happened in london last night.

by a simular situation i mean relative numbers taking part in the rioting regards the population difference, but it would only take what, 500 scumbags in each of say finglas, tallaght, ballyfermot or ronans town(somewhere on the west of the city) and then say coolock with major rioting in all these areas aswell as the city centre you would see a total break down of law and order in this city, and it would only stop when the rioters got bored, the gardai would have nothing to do with it. this would be a like for like situation, hope it never happens! im picked these areas aswell for their locations in spreading out the limited resources that would actually in real terms be available to the gardai would it happen!

the more i watch whats going on , the more i think your right. i couldn't see the gardai been able to control groups at 5 or 6 locations spread across the city.

however i don't think it would would take 500 to start something similar. i'd say if you got groups of between 50 and 100 they would be able to cause havoc on the streets.

the next problem is, the people have seen what can happen if they want to cause trouble and can organise it properly. all they need is that spark to kick things off. any possibility that the next budget (if its as bad as they say it is going to be) could be enough to kick things off here?

Turner

drill wrote: »

Just a quick question on the riots, what do the red/yellow/White shoulder markings on riot police stand for ?

Rank.

Eg: 1 Sergeant will be in charge of 6 police.

1 Inspector in charge of so many Sgt's and their police.

1 Superintendent in charge of one area with so many Inspectors and Sgt's

ect

Locust

donkeydc wrote: »

the more i watch whats going on , the more i think your right. i couldn't see the gardai been able to control groups at 5 or 6 locations spread across the city.

however i don't think it would would take 500 to start something similar. i'd say if you got groups of between 50 and 100 they would be able to cause havoc on the streets.

the next problem is, the people have seen what can happen if they want to cause trouble and can organise it properly. all they need is that spark to kick things off. any possibility that the next budget (if its as bad as they say it is going to be) could be enough to kick things off here?

In the Dublin Scenario... 'Meh...' i wouldn't put it past anarchist and anti government groups to organise something, sure the scum would get an hour or two of setting a few cars on fire and breaking a few shop windows but the Gardai are well capable of moving in and dispersing them.

Obviously media/sky news is edited but - everytime the public order units (in UK/Ireland) advance in formation on a stone throwing angry crowd - the crowd run/retreat! I think the Gardai are be well able to squash unrest in at least your 4/5 location scenario... (just like paddy's day every year really! with public order units patrolling those areas) Don't forget the guards are the biggest baddest gang in the country!

wreckless

maybe the thread should be titled ..."emergency services" coping?

gardai, fire service, ambulance, hospitals, local authorities, civil defence, red cross, care docs etc.... everyone is involved......;)

what are the ratios of the 2 countries anyway? ireland 4.5m people and how many gardai? england 60m and how many police?

davetherave

wreckless wrote: »

maybe the thread should be titled ..."emergency services" coping?
gardai, fire service, ambulance, hospitals, local authorities, civil defence, red cross, care docs etc.... everyone is involved......;)
what are the ratios of the 2 countries anyway? ireland 4.5m people and how many gardai? england 60m and how many police?

Ireland: 4,581,269 population(2011): 14,326 (Q1 2011)

England+Wales: 53,390,300 population (2008): 141,850 (2011)

United Kingdom: 62,262,000 (2010): 141,850(Eng/Wales) + 17,278(Scot) + 7,216(PSNI) = 166,344


Ireland Ratio: 320 citizens per full time police officer
Eng/Wales: 376 citizens per full time police officer
UK: 374 citizens per full time police officer

Woohoo we win

leposean

Have to agree with the post about the Emergency Services in general. As a member of the Dublin Fire Brigade, I attended a scene in Ballybrack about 4 years ago. Empty house that some ****s had set on fire. We attended and were attacked with bricks rocks etc. Took the Gardai (about 5 minute drive from shankill or Cabinteely Station especially with lights on and not far off that from Dun Laoghaire also) 15 minutes to reach us and allow us to do our job.

Now imagine these riots break out all over Dublin City Centre and suburbs. The amount of Gardai having to don riot gear and dispurse crowds and then the amount having to protect us, to protect other emergncy service.

Long story short they would be screwed

BaronVon

Guards don't even have enough vans/vehicles to handle the logistics of such a scenario, let alone the organisational skills/manpower.

Not a hope....

source

infacteh wrote: »

Guards don't even have enough vans/vehicles to handle the logistics of such a scenario, let alone the organisational skills/manpower.

Not a hope....

There's over 2000 vehicles within a 3 hour drive of Dublin, coupled with a number of boats and 2 helicopters and a plane, I think vehicles are more than covered.

Magic Beans

It seems that people want a bigger, better equipped Garda service but in reality nobody wants to pay the taxes to fund it.

flas

not what i was saying at all, I think they do a good job with what they have and with what they have to deal with on a daily basis. i was just saying that should ever wide spread riots go on in this country on such a wide spread basis and over a three or four day period as has happened in england this last week then the gardai would not be able to cope. does anyone honestly think a scumbag is going to intimidated by a 5" 7 tubby guard?!

dfbemt

source wrote: »

There's over 2000 vehicles within a 3 hour drive of Dublin, coupled with a number of boats and 2 helicopters and a plane, I think vehicles are more than covered.

I would disagree that vehicles are more than covered.

Are you going to send 1 person per vehicle? What vehicles will cover the areas where they come from. What about the logistics of it all. Something may be organised put I would put it at 3 days rather than 3 hours.

The boats would serve no purpose, the aerials are restricted in many different ways.

There is no point in 'bigging' it up. Not a chance could the Gardai cope in the same way that Fire, Ambulance and hospitals would be overwhelmed and I think the more realistic of us would recognise this.

Fingers crossed...........

source

dfbemt wrote: »

I would disagree that vehicles are more than covered.

Are you going to send 1 person per vehicle? What vehicles will cover the areas where they come from. What about the logistics of it all. Something may be organised put I would put it at 3 days rather than 3 hours.

The boats would serve no purpose, the aerials are restricted in many different ways.

There is no point in 'bigging' it up. Not a chance could the Gardai cope in the same way that Fire, Ambulance and hospitals would be overwhelmed and I think the more realistic of us would recognise this.

Fingers crossed...........

Public order units across the state would be called into action and called to Dublin, that would be the vans across the state, leaving patrol cars to defend the districts the cars came from.

I wasn't bigging anything up, i was responding to a direct accusation from another poster that AGS wouldn't have the resources to deal with an incident of this nature by outlining the resources they have.

<snip> I have snipped some of this post because reading back over it, it came very close to operational information.<snip>

dfbemt

source wrote: »

There's over 2000 vehicles within a 3 hour drive of Dublin, coupled with a number of boats and 2 helicopters and a plane, I think vehicles are more than covered.

source wrote: »

Public order units across the state would be called into action and called to Dublin, that would be the vans across the state, leaving patrol cars to defend the districts the cars came from.

I think you know, I know and the average scumbag in the country knows that there are not 2,000 public order vans available.

Without divulging operational information it would also be fair to say that there would not be 2,000 public order Gardai in situ within 3 hours whilst maintaining normal cover in other districts. This would take some days to organise.

As witnessed in the UK, these gurriers came and went within minutes and were highly mobile. Their main priority was not to riot, it was to steal. AGS have NEVER had to deal with anything like this.

Nor had the Met. It took them 3 days before they had arranged the necessary response.

AGS would be overwhelmed and I think it is futile to debate differently.

Locust

dfbemt wrote: »

I think you know, I know and the average scumbag in the country knows that there are not 2,000 public order vans available.

Without divulging operational information it would also be fair to say that there would not be 2,000 public order Gardai in situ within 3 hours whilst maintaining normal cover in other districts. This would take some days to organise.

As witnessed in the UK, these gurriers came and went within minutes and were highly mobile. Their main priority was not to riot, it was to steal. AGS have NEVER had to deal with anything like this.

Nor had the Met. It took them 3 days before they had arranged the necessary response.

AGS would be overwhelmed and I think it is futile to debate differently.

Its just a phone call mate. Right now i know lads would be more than happy to drop what there doing at home and come in, in about 20 mins (around the DMR). Lads would be going mad to get the overtime! Yes it would take time to mobilise but it wouldn't take days, more like an hour or two and i'd say you'd have several hundred cordoning streets off - move in an clear them off.

Rawhead

I don't see why Gardai are being so touchy about this thread. The Met is widely regarded as one of the preeminent police forces in the world. It has written the manual on everything from hostage negotiation to police bike handling, the PSNI being the only ones with more experience in public order. It has every resource it needs and it got caught completely by surprise. This was a completely new type of public disorder and I have no doubt that tactics will be developed to deal with it in the future and that the Gardai will be fully ready should it happen in the future.
But to say that the Gardai could or would have handled it better than the Met is a stretch.

TylerIE

Rawhead wrote: »

I don't see why Gardai are being so touchy about this thread. The Met is widely regarded as one of the preeminent police forces in the world. It has written the manual on everything from hostage negotiation to police bike handling, the PSNI being the only ones with more experience in public order. It has every resource it needs and it got caught completely by surprise. This was a completely new type of public disorder and I have no doubt that tactics will be developed to deal with it in the future and that the Gardai will be fully ready should it happen in the future.
But to say that the Gardai could or would have handled it better than the Met is a stretch.

Perhaps it may be felt that the UK has a number of issues we dont have -

- Different Police Constabularies and the politics of getting officers in from other constabularies, vs AGS being a National Organisation.
- David Cameron acknowledged today that Police Services were feeling constrained by "human rights" considerations, perhaps partly due to previous bad experiences with an overuse of force. e.g. feeling they couldnt publish pictures of criminals. We know the UK has been perhaps excessively sensitive to human rights considerations (stop forms being an example)
- Massive Race differences. The police were afraid to be seen to be targeting individual racial groups.

Over here the Gardai are probably more able to work without the constraints of the above. They are not going to be accused of targeting youth of X ethnicity or Y ethnicity because any widespread rioting would really need to be White Irish youth in the majority - there simply isnt enough non white Irish teenagers to cause such havoc!

Furthermore as much as I dislike the GAA at times organisations like it have a great grass-roots following in rural Ireland and many city areas with well behaved youth who (while they may engage in the odd drink related public order incident), wouldnt get involved in looting etc, so any major riots would really be confined to urban centres. Therefore AGS probably could manage trouble in X locations throughout the country.

Finally I DONT KNOW the official or unofficial policy, but I have little doubt AGS would be able to get the benefit of the PSNIs experience through conferences and planning meetings during an incident, and perhaps the use of vehicles (e.g. the Water cannon which were borrowed, but not used, in anticipation of the riots in the early 2000's). Belfast is only 2-3 hours from Dublin!

Also Police Cycle Handling was IPMBA led, and The MET followed their lead IIRC.

Notwithstanding the above, I dont know the level of public order training AGS have in comparison to the Met, but I would have every faith that AGS would respond in an appropriate, probably different, but appropriate manner to similar riots.

kub

I have no doubt whatsoever that AGS would be able to handle such scumbag situations.
Firstly I would doubt that the scum in this land are intelligent enough, technical enough and organised enough to carry out such events.

I would imagine that even now the intelligence lads in AGS are scanning all the various social networks for any such suggestions, also lets not be too naive to think that these lads cannot intercept all electronic forms of communication from the usual suspects.

So if planning was in existence, the bloody event would be over even before it begins.

And even if something did erupt, lets not forget what was doled out by our fine officers during that Ireland v England soccer match in Landsdowne Road. Our lads do not do softly softly, thankfully. Which was realised by the British scum bags that night.

sh1tstirrer

Some idiot on prendeville 96fm yesterday that believes all this Nostradamus nonsense said that he believes the riots in the UK are a sign that the world is coming to an end :rolleyes:

jill_valentine

sh1tstirrer wrote: »

Some idiot on prendeville 96fm yesterday that believes all this Nostradamus nonsense said that he believes the riots in the UK are a sign that the world is coming to an end :rolleyes:

We had one of those in the UK riot AH thread, it was awesome.

kub

sh1tstirrer wrote: »

Some idiot on prendeville 96fm yesterday that believes all this Nostradamus nonsense said that he believes the riots in the UK are a sign that the world is coming to an end :rolleyes:

Was 'the idiot' the caller, or was it the presenter?

sh1tstirrer

kub wrote: »

Was 'the idiot' the caller, or was it the presenter?

You could say both as Prendeville is also an idiot for having him on his show