would the gardai be able to cope?

donkeydc

watching the riots on tv and seeing how stretched the police are. just wondering, would the gardai be able to manage a situation if something similar happened here in any of our cities?

have they got the resources here to deal with major riots?

Revolution9

Well, how did they perform during the Dublin riots ahead of that Orange Order march a couple of years ago? I was too young to be that interested, but I imagine their performance during that would be a good indication.

donkeydc

in fairness the o connell street riots were contained to the city centre and the gardai dealt fairly well with them. but i don't think we've had a situation here where we've had riots at various locations at the same time.

would the gardai have the numbers to cope if trouble started in 4 or 5 suburbs.

Revolution9

donkeydc wrote: »

in fairness the o connell street riots were contained to the city centre and the gardai dealt fairly well with them. but i don't think we've had a situation here where we've had riots at various locations at the same time.

would the gardai have the numbers to cope if trouble started in 4 or 5 suburbs.

Well we don't have quite as big a problem with youth gang culture as they do in places like London, Birmingham and Liverpool, so personally I don't think it could spread to numerous suburbs and would likely be limited to the one area.

jill_valentine

I was at a (peaceful) protest a while back, and the second there was any tension at all, suddenly there were horses and dogs everywhere. Which is a terrible idea, because whatever about horses, the second there are dogs on the scene, the adrenaline starts going and you can see everybody square off into "teams" instinctively. It's a primal thing, you can feel the hairs on your neck stand up when you hear the dogs, and your brain automatically starts getting you ready to defend yourself in spite of all the rational thinking in the world.

Lucky enough, somebody copped on and pulled the dogs back; but they generated an awful lot more tension than they were worth in that situation, certainly. Riot gear is also very dehumanising, I daresay it's much easier to take out your frustrations on a suited and booted Robocop than it is to beat the head off Garda Gerry in the hi viz who signed your passport photos a few years ago.

What I'm getting at is that, by and large, I think Irish guards are probably not very well equipped to suppress a large scale riot of the kind we're seeing in London - but I also suspect they're a bit less psychologically inclined to stoke one up in the same way as , for instance, the UK police. UK police increasingly seem to treat every single civil protest as a potential riot lately, regardless of what it's about or how likely it actually is to kick off, and that's always going to be self-fulfilling to some extent.

Zambia

Revolution9 wrote: »

Well, how did they perform during the Dublin riots ahead of that Orange Order march a couple of years ago? I was too young to be that interested, but I imagine their performance during that would be a good indication.

They performed very well. The Gardai are designed to handle Irish situations there is no need to have them equipped to handling a city of 20 Million people in a country of less than 5.

I am sure the Gardai will handle any Irish scenario.

MagicSean

In Ireland there's a big risk of being prosecuted or sued if you use force. Hopefully the rioters would stop after some polite conversation.

Zambia

The Goverment could simply announce that should the rioters not disperse. The Officers will be instructed to cover the numbers on the back of there Helmets or any identifying insignia before they go out again.

Its sickening to see such a old city slowly that has survived so much being destroyed by its own scum.

source

jill_valentine wrote: »

I was at a (peaceful) protest a while back, and the second there was any tension at all, suddenly there were horses and dogs everywhere. Which is a terrible idea, because whatever about horses, the second there are dogs on the scene, the adrenaline starts going and you can see everybody square off into "teams" instinctively. It's a primal thing, you can feel the hairs on your neck stand up when you hear the dogs, and your brain automatically starts getting you ready to defend yourself in spite of all the rational thinking in the world.

Lucky enough, somebody copped on and pulled the dogs back; but they generated an awful lot more tension than they were worth in that situation, certainly. Riot gear is also very dehumanising, I daresay it's much easier to take out your frustrations on a suited and booted Robocop than it is to beat the head off Garda Gerry in the hi viz who signed your passport photos a few years ago.

What I'm getting at is that, by and large, I think Irish guards are probably not very well equipped to suppress a large scale riot of the kind we're seeing in London - but I also suspect they're a bit less psychologically inclined to stoke one up in the same way as , for instance, the UK police. UK police increasingly seem to treat every single civil protest as a potential riot lately, regardless of what it's about or how likely it actually is to kick off, and that's always going to be self-fulfilling to some extent.

This post is one massive contradiction, on the one hand you list the public order facilities that AGS have. ie, riot gear, dog units, mounted units. Then you turn around and say they're not very well equipped.

I also don't buy your argument that bringing in Dogs escalates the issue. If you're involved in a riot and the dogs come out then don't try to continue fighting. Call it a day and go home. That's the point of doing this.

The problem is that idiots who riot don't think like that and escalate the issue, rioters don't see the powers of the state trying to restore order, they see something to attack, and people who're trying to ruin their "fun".

AGS are equipped to deal with public order incidents that may arise here in Ireland and have demonstrated that very well in the last 2 years. They have no need to be capable of quelling a large scale city wide riot in a city of 8 million people.

johnnyskeleton

source wrote: »

jill_valentine wrote: »

I was at a (peaceful) protest a while back, and the second there was any tension at all, suddenly there were horses and dogs everywhere. Which is a terrible idea, because whatever about horses, the second there are dogs on the scene, the adrenaline starts going and you can see everybody square off into "teams" instinctively. It's a primal thing, you can feel the hairs on your neck stand up when you hear the dogs, and your brain automatically starts getting you ready to defend yourself in spite of all the rational thinking in the world.

Lucky enough, somebody copped on and pulled the dogs back; but they generated an awful lot more tension than they were worth in that situation, certainly. Riot gear is also very dehumanising, I daresay it's much easier to take out your frustrations on a suited and booted Robocop than it is to beat the head off Garda Gerry in the hi viz who signed your passport photos a few years ago.

What I'm getting at is that, by and large, I think Irish guards are probably not very well equipped to suppress a large scale riot of the kind we're seeing in London - but I also suspect they're a bit less psychologically inclined to stoke one up in the same way as , for instance, the UK police. UK police increasingly seem to treat every single civil protest as a potential riot lately, regardless of what it's about or how likely it actually is to kick off, and that's always going to be self-fulfilling to some extent.

This post is one massive contradiction, on the one hand you list the public order facilities that AGS have. ie, riot gear, dog units, mounted units. Then you turn around and say they're not very well equipped.

I also don't buy your argument that bringing in Dogs escalates the issue. If you're involved in a riot and the dogs come out then don't try to continue fighting. Call it a day and go home. That's the point of doing this.

The problem is that idiots who riot don't think like that and escalate the issue, rioters don't see the powers of the state trying to restore order, they see something to attack, and people who're trying to ruin their "fun".

AGS are equipped to deal with public order incidents that may arise here in Ireland and have demonstrated that very well in the last 2 years. They have no need to be capable of quelling a large scale city wide riot in a city of 8 million people.

They should have a puppies and kitten unit instead of a dog unit to pacify the crowds rather incite their anger

um7y1h83ge06nx

In fairness I reckon the authorities here would deal with an Irish situation.

I also think and hope the Government here would get the finger out more and use the PDF as an aid to the civil power if the need arose.

I'm flabbergasted at how far they have let things go in London, I thought the army would definitely have been deployed there in order to beef up the Met's numbers.

hidinginthebush

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

They should have a puppies and kitten unit instead of a dog unit to pacify the crowds rather incite their anger

I'm not the only one who agrees with you

eroo

I don't think it's wise to be discussing the capabilities of AGS in a large scale public order incident on a discussion forum.

markpb

Sydney Late Traveler wrote: »

I also think and hope the Government here would get the finger out more and use the PDF as an aid to the civil power if the need arose.

Deploying the army to resolve a civilian conflict is a terrible idea. In the UK along, there's plenty of precedent to show why. The army have no power of arrest and are trained to deal with conflict using lethal force.

eroo wrote: »

I don't think it's wise to be discussing the capabilities of AGS in a large scale public order incident on a discussion forum.

Why? It's not like anyone is describing operational plans or resourcing or anything that could, in any way, aid someone planning a riot.

jill_valentine

source wrote: »

This post is one massive contradiction, on the one hand you list the public order facilities that AGS have. ie, riot gear, dog units, mounted units. Then you turn around and say they're not very well equipped.

The key word is large scale. The Guards are very experienced in dealing with parades and marches along predetermined routes etc. Even if they do kick off, they're generally localised to a few key points eg O Connell Street and outside the Dail. What's happening in London is a very different beast. I don't think the Guards are equipped for that, I don't think they'd need to be, and I don't think their relations with local communities, however strained they might be, are nearly as bad as they are in parts of London with their UK counterparts.

I also don't buy your argument that bringing in Dogs escalates the issue. If you're involved in a riot and the dogs come out then don't try to continue fighting. Call it a day and go home. That's the point of doing this.

What I was at wasn't a riot and wasn't nearly a riot until the dogs appeared. I wasn't even there as a protestor, and bringing the dogs in got my back up. The Guards, to their immense credit, realised that the presence of a bunch of jumpy noisy german shepherds was only aggravating matters and pulled them back. A potentially ugly little incident didn't happen because the guards exercised the kind of flexibility and situational awareness that seems sorely lacking from many other forces.

I would prefer that the guards keep a hold of the idea that avoiding unnecessary aggro in the first place is the priority, rather than simply assuming pitched battles are inevitable and diving in to bust up some heads.

um7y1h83ge06nx

markpb wrote: »

Deploying the army to resolve a civilian conflict is a terrible idea. In the UK along, there's plenty of precedent to show why. The army have no power of arrest and are trained to deal with conflict using lethal force.



Why? It's not like anyone is describing operational plans or resourcing or anything that could, in any way, aid someone planning a riot.

That's a fair argument but where else would you get the numbers (in an Irish context) from if you needed them, if AGS was too stretched?

The PDF would be preferable, I presume, to the RDF as soldiering is their full-time job.
You could call in the Garda Reserve but would they be trained to the same level as full-time AGS or the PDF, particular when it came to crowd control?
After that, you're left with militias of country lads with hurleys, shotguns and rifles.

Now, I'm not a member of AGS or the Defence Forces, but I think cross co-operation wouldn't be a bad thing if we ever ended up in a crap situation like London (and hope to hell we do not).

jill_valentine

Sydney Late Traveler wrote: »

That's a fair argument but where else would you get the numbers (in an Irish context) from if you needed them, if AGS was too stretched?

Hmm. That's a tricky one alright. PDF have the numbers but, with no disrespect, are geared towards a completely different purpose from the ground up. I would be very, very reluctant to see this happen.

The only other group I can think of would be the Civil Defence or something, but they'd be inappropriate for the opposite reason altogether.

davetherave

Just an fyi, the army are trained to deal with public order situations, or riot control if you will. Overseas in Kosovo being a prime example of this.

Click for much bigger pictures. (From DF flickr page)

TylerIE

Sydney Late Traveler wrote: »

You could call in the Garda Reserve but would they be trained to the same level as full-time AGS or the PDF, particular when it came to crowd control?

What appears to be happening in the UK is that Specials (their established Reserve) are being called in, but are being used to back-fill.... So Regular Constables are moved forward to deal with the Public order etc, while the Specials catch the day-to-day stuff.

Its not an absolute equivalent as their Specials have full powers, a rank structure and driving permissions (Varying but from partial to full pursuit).

jill_valentine wrote: »

Hmm. That's a tricky one alright. PDF have the numbers but, with no disrespect, are geared towards a completely different purpose from the ground up. I would be very, very reluctant to see this happen.

The only other group I can think of would be the Civil Defence or something, but they'd be inappropriate for the opposite reason altogether.

Civil Defence could assist with Fire Fighting or Medical Response but are not there as a Public Order Force. Its unfortunate that the name suggests CD is a "confrontational" organisation but its far from it.

The PDF is probably the only group that could back up the Gardai, but it would be a dark day that Irish Citizens / Residents would cause such havoc that such a response would be needed.

Locust

Any time the Police/Gardai challenge rioters (in a modern day), and move forward in formation the crowd always retreat back. The masked scum, for all there dancing and throwing rocks and missiles - they alway run, they rarely stay and fight when police advance on them.

When you bring in the army even in a supporting role, there is the sense that you've lost control of the situation if you have to have soldiers on the streets. I doubt they would do that here or in England. There is too much 'pride' (in a negative sense) to admit that the police/government are powerless.

The police will get more hardcore on looters/rioters. 'Containment strategies' (Don't do much for local businesses) but if police go in with armored vehicles, fast organised snatch squads and zero tolerance advancements to clear the streets, then pile them into detention centers and process them to a special court sitting just for them.

Look at what the Danish Cops did at COP 15 - Climate change conference 2009. Temp/purpose built detention cages to process prisoners etc...
Images are a bit high res for here
http://www.bt.dk/sites/default/files-dk/node-images/408/3/3408436-rets-pressefotograf.jpg

jill_valentine

jill_valentine wrote: »

The key word is large scale. The Guards are very experienced in dealing with parades and marches along predetermined routes etc. Even if they do kick off, they're generally localised to a few key points eg O Connell Street and outside the Dail. What's happening in London is a very different beast. I don't think the Guards are equipped for that, I don't think they'd need to be, and I don't think their relations with local communities, however strained they might be, are nearly as bad as they are in parts of London with their UK counterparts.



What I was at wasn't a riot and wasn't nearly a riot until the dogs appeared. I wasn't even there as a protestor, and bringing the dogs in got my back up. The Guards, to their immense credit, realised that the presence of a bunch of jumpy noisy german shepherds was only aggravating matters and pulled them back. A potentially ugly little incident didn't happen because the guards exercised the kind of flexibility and situational awareness that seems sorely lacking from many other forces.

I would prefer that the guards keep a hold of the idea that avoiding unnecessary aggro in the first place is the priority, rather than simply assuming pitched battles are inevitable and diving in to bust up some heads.

Maybe the dogs did the required job and were withdrawn? What/where was the protest if you don't mind?

And re how we would handle on similar I think the force have shown how good they are with the student protests which were hijacked by the republicans, the events in Finglas on Paddy's day a couple of years back, any of the troublesome League of Ireland matches and on a large scale the Queens visit and the EU presidency a few years back. Love Ulster was well contained once the numbers arrived but the Polis weren't helped by the building site that was O'Connell Street.

wolf moon

donkeydc wrote: »

would the gardai be able to manage a situation if something similar happened here in any of our cities?

Hahaha, with all due respect, but they barely manage a bunch of junkies in the Dublin City Centre.

wolf moon

wolf moon wrote: »

Hahaha, with all due respect, but they barely manage a bunch of junkies in the Dublin City Centre.

It's not a crime to be a junkie in a town or city. But your silly point has been noted. :rolleyes:

jill_valentine

foreign wrote: »

What/where was the protest if you don't mind?

Not to sound too rabidly lefty, but I honestly can't remember which one it was. I *think* it was one of the cuts ones before Christmas, but I couldn't say for sure.

Maybe the dogs did the required job and were withdrawn?

I considered this, but the crowd were far more aggravated when the dogs left than they were when they arrived, and the dogs hadn't dispersed or been used to disperse them. From watching the Gardai interact, there was a definite sense that they realised that they were having the opposite of their intended effect, so they backed off. It worked, and all the big brave boys who'd been squaring off for a pitched battle got bored and wandered off when it became apparent that there would be none forthcoming.

Don't get me wrong, I don't doubt dogs are effective in dispersing riots once they're unfolding, but bringing them in prematurely is a bad move psychologically. Until you're literally at a point of setting them on people to break them up, they're noisy and jumpy, and just inject a certain unnecessary energy and aggression into proceedings.

It was a curious phenomenon to see in action actually, it's almost a physical fight-or-flight reaction.

jill_valentine

jill_valentine wrote: »

Not to sound too rabidly lefty, but I honestly can't remember which one it was. I *think* it was one of the cuts ones before Christmas, but I couldn't say for sure.



I considered this, but the crowd were far more aggravated when the dogs left than they were when they arrived, and the dogs hadn't dispersed or been used to disperse them. From watching the Gardai interact, there was a definite sense that they realised that they were having the opposite of their intended effect, so they backed off. It worked, and all the big brave boys who'd been squaring off for a pitched battle got bored and wandered off when it became apparent that there would be none forthcoming.

Don't get me wrong, I don't doubt dogs are effective in dispersing riots once they're unfolding, but bringing them in prematurely is a bad move psychologically. Until you're literally at a point of setting them on people to break them up, they're noisy and jumpy, and just inject a certain unnecessary energy and aggression into proceedings.

It was a curious phenomenon to see in action actually, it's almost a physical fight-or-flight reaction.

That's fair enough. Usually there is a step by step reaction to whats happening on the ground and that determines what response the police have.

Sterling Archer

Locust wrote: »

Look at what the Danish Cops did at COP 15 - Climate change conference 2009. Temp/purpose built detention cages to process prisoners etc...
Images are a bit high res for here
http://www.bt.dk/sites/default/files-dk/node-images/408/3/3408436-rets-pressefotograf.jpg

That's a lot of paper work :eek:

Personally i think AGS would Struggle if a similar situation occurred in Ireland, similar in size relative to the size of the city, but aren't English Police struggling too, I'd put both forces Training on par levels.

dev100

Zambia wrote: »

The Goverment could simply announce that should the rioters not disperse. The Officers will be instructed to cover the numbers on the back of there Helmets or any identifying insignia before they go out again.

.

Thats certainly not a good idea!!! Sure why not let them use lethal force while your at it. The syrians give good training.

donvito99

@ Jill Valentine - if dogs had to be called in then I should think that a peaceful protest had all but gone out the window by then.

donvito99

dev100 wrote: »

Thats certainly not a good idea!!! Sure why not let them use lethal force while your at it. The syrians give good training.

Cover the identification, give them batons. One day IPCC barred window, regain upper hand. TBH I was staying in London, Crouch end last week, took the bus to finsbury park station everyday. Those streets have changed utterly, peoples homes, businesses destroyed, their lives and livelihoods threatened. That mob are criminal scum who have no mandate or support. They were encouraged by another criminal (because he was carrying a firearm - you should be shot for that alone when confronted and challenged by the police) and are now descending into scenes you usually see in Somalia or more recently the middle east.

Sometimes human rights, regulations, go to far when a situation like this arises. A temporary lift on those rules should be granted.

I don´t knoe ehy - its not my city but i´m sick to the stomach.

flas

genuinely think that if a simular situation cropped up in say dublin, in the many different parts of the city that the gardai would be very stretched and maybe lose a handle on the situation, just like happened in london last night.

by a simular situation i mean relative numbers taking part in the rioting regards the population difference, but it would only take what, 500 scumbags in each of say finglas, tallaght, ballyfermot or ronans town(somewhere on the west of the city) and then say coolock with major rioting in all these areas aswell as the city centre you would see a total break down of law and order in this city, and it would only stop when the rioters got bored, the gardai would have nothing to do with it. this would be a like for like situation, hope it never happens! im picked these areas aswell for their locations in spreading out the limited resources that would actually in real terms be available to the gardai would it happen!

dev100

donvito99 wrote: »

Cover the identification, give them batons. One day IPCC barred window, regain upper hand. TBH I was staying in London, Crouch end last week, took the bus to finsbury park station everyday. Those streets have changed utterly, peoples homes, businesses destroyed, their lives and livelihoods threatened. That mob are criminal scum who have no mandate or support. They were encouraged by another criminal (because he was carrying a firearm - you should be shot for that alone when confronted and challenged by the police) and are now descending into scenes you usually see in Somalia or more recently the middle east.

Sometimes human rights, regulations, go to far when a situation like this arises. A temporary lift on those rules should be granted.

I don´t knoe ehy - its not my city but i´m sick to the stomach.

Somali isnt a good example.

What happens when an innocent bystander gets in the way and gets a beating and is hospitalised or gets shot dead by being in the wrong area at the wrong time. Is that person collateral damage by being in the way?

I certainly wouldnt want a cop or a soldier to be able to justify using lethal force on the wider public or to be unanswerable to the wider community.

You are right its disgusting whats going on over there. It shouldnt be allowed but you have to look at why or how this happened in a civil society. Even middle eastern governments cant quell unrest with lethal force.

You are entering a world of poop letting the cops off the leash.