Guard-dogs

Saabster

Hi all,

I'm thinking about getting another dog and I'm hoping that someone here can suggest a suitable breed. I'm looking for a dog that has a natural instinct to guard but won't need more than an hour-long walk every day and will not have an issue with separation anxiety. I've looked at some of the usual guard-dog breeds and they all seem a little high maintenance. We already have a pointer-cross, a westie and four cats. Any dog we get will obviously have to get along with our present gang and will be spending quite a lot of time indoors as myself and herself are not at home during the day. I'm looking for a pet first and foremost so it's not the be-all and end-all if the dog doesn't guard - it would be handy however if I can find a dog that does! Thanks....

CrackisWhack

Get a Jack Russel Terrier

Shanao

From what you've described, its probably a bull, neopolitan or english mastiff that would suit you best, though these are giant breeds and expensive to feed. They have natural guarding instincts, are gentle with kids and other animals (when properly socialised of course) and cant really handle much more than an hour long walk. Mind me asking why less than an hour walk though? Surely if you have a pointer and a westie already you're already walking longer than that?

Saabster

No - hour long daily walks and both dogs are in great shape.

poozers

go to your local animal welfare and get a dog!! i dont think it should matter what kind of breed it is!!! also, the people at the animal welfare will be able to give you an idea of the dogs personality, what theyre like with kids and other dogs etc etc! also, these are dogs that are looking for homes and will be MORE than happy to get one from someone whos looking! for 17 years we had a little mongrel who was a cross between a sheepdog and a bassett hound, a strange looking little thing, but was the cutest sweetest dog ever!! sadly, she passed away 2 weeks ago but up until 2 years ago, before she started to go deaf, she was the best guard dog (my father used to test to see if he could get in our gate going unnoticed by her, and he failed everytime!) ! so at least check out your local animal welfares website, and see if you see any dog you might like!!

meoklmrk91

Boxer, I know that they may not be considered to be a ''guarding breed'' first and foremost but I have one and a 10 months old he is brilliant to guard the house, he sleeps indoors at night and if he hears anyone in or around the house he goes mad barking a growling. Most of the time he is a big happy eejit who loves everyone and everything, but he is a formidable dog when guarding our home and I have had grown men cross the road when they see the two of us coming.

Honey-ec

meoklmrk91 wrote: »

Boxer, I know that they may not be considered to be a ''guarding breed'' first and foremost but I have one and a 10 months old he is brilliant to guard the house, he sleeps indoors at night and if he hears anyone in or around the house he goes mad barking a growling. Most of the time he is a big happy eejit who loves everyone and everything, but he is a formidable dog when guarding our home and I have had grown men cross the road when they see the two of us coming.

Boxers have a very strong guarding instinct when it comes to their home & family. If he's going to be indoors for most of the day, though, he will need that hour long walk religiously, otherwise the OP's furniture will soon bear the brunt of his boredom.

Saabster

Thanks for your suggestions - I had thought about a boxer and know how protective they can be but are they a breed that will be ok left alone with other dogs all day? Both our dogs are great watchdogs but neither of them is a guard-dog - they will bark but then greet all and sundry like long lost friends. We live in a remote spot and have had some suspicious characters around a little too often so I thought maybe it's time to have a guard dog around. Mastiffs sound like great dogs and certainly worth considering! Do you have one yourself Shanao?

ppink

Do you think if you get another dog he will just follow the lead of your established dogs who bark and then greet?

Shanao

Saabster wrote: »

Thanks for your suggestions - I had thought about a boxer and know how protective they can be but are they a breed that will be ok left alone with other dogs all day? Both our dogs are great watchdogs but neither of them is a guard-dog - they will bark but then greet all and sundry like long lost friends. We live in a remote spot and have had some suspicious characters around a little too often so I thought maybe it's time to have a guard dog around. Mastiffs sound like great dogs and certainly worth considering! Do you have one yourself Shanao?

Not yet:D Thinking of getting one down the line, an english mastiff if I can source a wellbred one. I have worked with them though and they're big slobs, but they are huge dogs and can be pretty intimidating to strangers. They will cost you an arm and a leg to feed too, they absolutely adore their food and devour quite a large quantity.
Honestly though, there's a lot of dogs that will guard despite not being a 'guarding' breed. We had a collie who wouldn't let anyone inside the gate unless we told her to.
You might be as well off checking the rescue route, I know there's a good few rescues around the country that have had several different mastiffs in because their owners either didn't realise how big they get or cant afford to keep them.

Saabster

I guess that's possible but I'm looking in particular at breeds that have a strong instinct to guard!

Saabster

I know what you mean Shanao - I had a lab once who was just the same. Not an aggresive dog at all, just very protective. But then I've known other labs who would open the door for strangers if they were able. So I'm thinking that I'd be as well off to get a breed that is known to have an instinct for the job.

Something else I'm wondering about is whether a breed that is reputed to suffer from separation anxiety will be less stressed if left with other dogs all day?

Honey-ec

Saabster wrote: »

Both our dogs are great watchdogs but neither of them is a guard-dog - they will bark but then greet all and sundry like long lost friends.

Ok, well a Boxer will pretty much do exactly that - ours go BALLISTIC whenever anyone comes within about 20 feet of the house, but if someone comes into the house, then they'll be slobbering all over them within minutes.

What distinction are you making between a watchdog and a guard-dog?

ETA: Never underestimate the deterrent effect that just a dog barking can have. We had to give statements to a pair of detectives at home a few years back and the dogs went ballistic barking at them & jumping up at the door when they rang the doorbell. I hustled the dogs into the kitchen and was like "Sorry about that!" and the Gardai were like "Don't be sorry." They basically said that a burglar is looking for the easiest target and if they hear a dog barking in your house/garden, they'll move on to the house that doesn't.

Saabster

"What distinction are you making between a watchdog and a guard-dog?"

A watch-dog will bark to alert his owner to something suspicious but will take no further action whereas a guard-dog will also threaten anyone he suspects of endangering his owners.

dave1982

A dog barking should be enough,you don't want a dog that attacks people.Train a dog to attack it will go very wrong eventually.

Cherry Blossom

Train a dog to attack and as soon as it bites someone you are in the same position you would be if you pulled out a gun and shot them.

In answer to your original question, there is no such breed that will attack people without having very specialised training to do so.

Saabster

I have no intention training any dog to attack - like I said, I'm looking for a dog that has an instinct to guard ie. a dog that is hardwired to protect it's owner or it's owners property. Such a dog would receive obedience training and would be socialized from an early age to curb any aggresive instincts.

Zapperzy

I agree with AJ here in that you DO NOT want a dog that will attack, you will be in serious bother if it does and it won't matter if he attacks a burglar, the neighbours kid who went into your garden to get his football, the meter reader or the postman. The dog would be seized and destroyed.

A large dog that barks I would imagine would be enough to deter any dodgy people. I know I certainly wouldn't chance breaking into a house with a giant dog barking inside. Slightly off topic but I remember hearing a story of a house broken into that had a level 3 schutzhund rottweiler (I think or gsd) who didn't pass any heed of the burglars, not exactly sure how true that is but I thought it funny.

Apologies didn't see your last post before I posted mine. What exactly do you mean by guard though? Do you mean a dog that will just stand and bark at an intruder rather than jump all over him and lick his face?

Cherry Blossom

I'm afraid you aren't making much sense then, all a 'guard' dog does is bark, any dog that is raised any way decently at all will do what your other 2 dogs do, so the most protection your going to get is a dog that barks at people before they come into the house, then shut up. Getting a 'big' dog will just be for special effects and appearances. What exactly do you propose to do with the "guarding and protective" instincts you are looking for? Imho no dog has stronger instincts in this regard than a Westie, which you already have.

Saabster

I have two dogs, both of whom bark when anyone comes up my drive. But regardless of whether that someone is known to them or not, having barked at them, they will not try to prevent them from coming any further.

Some dogs might or might not bark at a stranger coming up the drive but will not allow a stranger to pass them on the drive if they can prevent them from doing so.

See the difference?

Cherry Blossom

No, I don't see the difference, how exactly are they going to prevent them from coming up the drive? Other than physical contact all they can do still is bark.

Saabster

If a dog is determined enough and intimidating enough there is no need for it to attack anyone or even bark in some instances to stop the majority of people in their tracks.

Cherry Blossom

Right, so basicly what I said about appearances and special effects then? Otherwise it seems you want a dog to do something which you can't explain yourself, in which case I'm not sure how we can help you

DBB

Saabster wrote: »

Some dogs might or might not bark at a stranger coming up the drive but will not allow a stranger to pass them on the drive if they can prevent them from doing so.

To be honest, I would not want a dog next or near my property that "will not allow a stranger to pass". I think a dog like this is very likely to get you in front of a judge.
I think a dog who uses his voice to dissuade strangers from a distance is a) a safer option, and b) a very effective guard dog. All a dog needs to do is make noise to be effective. A dog that physically attempts to stop someone passing is an absolute liability.
Here lies the contradiction when we want a dog who'll guard the place. Dogs bred to guard tend to be, by nature, aloof with strangers. We can't expect the dog to discriminate between friend or foe. How's he supposed to know that the little girl selling lines for the sponsored school walk is any less a risk than a hooded man with a bag saying "swag" over his shoulder?

Saabster

Well I don't think you can anyway AJ but several other suggestions made here tonight have been helpful.

As for "appearance and special effects" - I can think of several big dogs that do not have the instinct to guard that I'm talking about eg. Golden Retriever.

If you can't understand what it is I'm asking about I wonder why you bother? Anyway, thanks to everyone else who contributed!

Oranage2

Rottweiler would get my vote -

CrackisWhack

Zapperzy

CrackisWhack wrote: »

Dobermans would need more than an hour walk a day I would imagine. Also those ears are cropped, something which is illegal in Ireland.

Also on the point of exercise, if you decide to go for a large or giant breed it is recommended they only be exercised for 5 minutes per month of age per day, so for a 4 month old pup they should only get 20 minutes walking a day. Also not recommended they do a lot of jumping up and down of couches or into the car. It's so that you don't damage drowing joints. So you won't be able to do the hour a day of walking until the dog is older.

Tbh OP your not going to get a dog that will automatically guard in the sense of how you see it should (the blocking of strangers coming into your home). Some here have recommended breeds which would be instinctual guarders, I think you are best to research all of these breeds and then concentrate on 1 or 2 that you think will fit in with your family and then start the search for a reputable breeder (depending on which breed you go for you may be waiting quite a while as most good breeders have waiting lists and you may have to go to the uk for a reputable breeder if there are none here).

As I already said a large dog that barks when it hears people approaching is a detterant enough for most burglars. Training a dog to bark at approaching people (and of course training it to stop barking once you give the ok) would be easy enough to do. I can't really see how you would train a dog to block people coming up your driveway.

Cherry Blossom

It's probably worth noting that the dobermann pincher was bred for personal protection, not to protect property. They actually aren't at all suitable as so-called guard dogs especially if the intention is to keep it outdoors. They are also incredibly needy and won't do well left alone all day. But . . . what would I know

Cherry Blossom

Saabster wrote: »

If you can't understand what it is I'm asking about I wonder why you bother?

Because I get the feeling there is a bit more to this that you are holding back and as soon as I hear 'guard-dog' I'm on alert, I'm surrounded by guard-dogs and haven't met one yet that isn't treated like some sort of sub-species or weapon. Just trying to fill in the gaps is all!

lrushe

Shanao wrote: »

From what you've described, its probably a bull, neopolitan or english mastiff that would suit you best,

I'd have to disagree here, there are a pair of Neopolitan Mastiffs that 'guard' a warehouse beside a market I go to on Sunday and they are absolutely useless at the job but in a good way:). I go over to the railings to say hello and the 2 of them coming running, bums wiggling, absolutely delighted to have some human attention. Heartbreaking to walk away from them, 2 beautiful dogs who deserve to be in a home with a family not lying on concrete with no human contact Anyway that's my rant over
OP most any dog will bark if they hear or see anything out of the ordinary around their home even a JRT is in most cases enough to detour someone from coming on to your property.
Most of the guarding breeds are v.human orientated and will want to spend more time with you than outside guarding your property. The only exceptions might be something along the lines of the more independant Guardian Breeds like Anatolian Shepherds or Maremma who were breed to protect livestock away from people, however these breeds wouldn't be readily available in Ireland and are alot of dog for the average owner.
You also have to be aware that you are threading a fine line between 'watch dog' and 'guard dog' and a dog might not necessarily see the boudary, one slip up could land you and your dog in alot of trouble.

Tranceypoo

Honey-ec wrote: »

Ok, well a Boxer will pretty much do exactly that - ours go BALLISTIC whenever anyone comes within about 20 feet of the house, but if someone comes into the house, then they'll be slobbering all over them within minutes.

What distinction are you making between a watchdog and a guard-dog?

ETA: Never underestimate the deterrent effect that just a dog barking can have. We had to give statements to a pair of detectives at home a few years back and the dogs went ballistic barking at them & jumping up at the door when they rang the doorbell. I hustled the dogs into the kitchen and was like "Sorry about that!" and the Gardai were like "Don't be sorry." They basically said that a burglar is looking for the easiest target and if they hear a dog barking in your house/garden, they'll move on to the house that doesn't.

I would second this, I have 2 dogs both rescue mutts and both the friendliest lumps who love people but oh man, if a car comes up the driveway or someone knocks at the door, the postlady, even when my husband drives up the drive, they go BALLOOBAS!!! And I let them because I'm happy for the word to spread that 'there's 2 lunatic dogs in that house'!!

MarthaMyDear

I think I know the point your trying to make with the guard dog/watch dog thing!

My King Charles might bark if she thought somebody was around the house in the middle of the night but if they actually came into the house or she decided she was bored of barking :P then she would stop and greet anyone with joy even if they had just climbed in the kitchen window.

A friend of mine has a Jack Russell and if somebody they havn't been introduced to was approaching the house they'd run at them barking. They have never attacked anybody but instead of just sitting their barking they would run around and intimidate whoever was coming. Same with a German Shepard, my friend would never train hers to attack but the persistance of those kind of breeds with barking along with not actually turning friendly until they see the owner interact with the person make them guard dogs. Also, seeing a German Shepard or even a Jack Russell (I'm a bit afraid of them I have to admit!) would definitely put off somebody who was trying to enter your house uninvited.

Sittingpretty

I know what the op means. I have a gsd. Mark my words you don't know this dog u would not cross our gate. She is intimidating and she makes an awful lot of noise. It'd be the brave burglar that would take the chance coming into our house.

However, she is first and foremost a pet, has never bitten and is not trained to do so. I can't be sure what she would do if any of us were actually threatened, I don't think she would hold back.

ohmfg

I also understand exactly what the OP means.
Perhaps that's because I have one each, of the type of dog the OP is talking about.
We have two GSDs, one, of the barking and then licking to death any one and everyone type, the other, of the barking and "you shall not pass me unless I get the all clear" variety.

Neither are a threat to anyone but the more guarding one would make even the very bravest and most committed burglar think twice.

**Vai**

There seems to be alot of confusion about guard dogs, personal protection dogs and just ordinary dogs. Most ordinary dogs will flee before attacking. Unless they are badly kept/trained/fed of course.

OP if you want a proper guard/protection dog its gonna take time and training. If you are going to keep the dog indoors when you're not home then whats wrong with your pointer mix? Loud, deep bark Im guessing, which is what you want from what I would call a watch dog.

I have a GSD and she would be absolutely useless if anyone broke in. People like to imagine the dog coming to the rescue but realistically they are all bark and no bite (unless you bite train them).

Shanao

lrushe wrote: »

I'd have to disagree here, there are a pair of Neopolitan Mastiffs that 'guard' a warehouse beside a market I go to on Sunday and they are absolutely useless at the job but in a good way:). I go over to the railings to say hello and the 2 of them coming running, bums wiggling, absolutely delighted to have some human attention. Heartbreaking to walk away from them, 2 beautiful dogs who deserve to be in a home with a family not lying on concrete with no human contact Anyway that's my rant over
OP most any dog will bark if they hear or see anything out of the ordinary around their home even a JRT is in most cases enough to detour someone from coming on to your property.
Most of the guarding breeds are v.human orientated and will want to spend more time with you than outside guarding your property. The only exceptions might be something along the lines of the more independant Guardian Breeds like Anatolian Shepherds or Maremma who were breed to protect livestock away from people, however these breeds wouldn't be readily available in Ireland and are alot of dog for the average owner.
You also have to be aware that you are threading a fine line between 'watch dog' and 'guard dog' and a dog might not necessarily see the boudary, one slip up could land you and your dog in alot of trouble.

TBH, I think most people took me up wrong on that. I've never met a good guarding mastiff either, its their look that puts people off and the deep, throaty bark when they spot strangers. Otherwise, they'll let you in without a problem. What I meant was that they are less high maintanance than some of the other guarding breeds. i wouldn't want to see one treated the way that most people treat guard dogs either:mad:

concur4u?

i think theres a big difference between a guard dog and a domestic watch dog i know of a man made his living in guard dogs for security in industrial yards and the like mostly German Shepard's/rothweilers/dobermans left in pairs on the premises these were not pets and he even lost some of them to drugged steaks by burglars and then you have house pet to watch a house that lives with people family etc but would be well socailised with children and other dogs and pets

Bullseye1

If your looking for a good guard dog which will also intimidate any would be burglar then look no further than:

Bullmastiff
German Shepard
Rhodesian Ridgeback
Rottweiler
Doberman

Other dogs maybe suitable as alert dogs. But no dogs should be left for long periods of time without stimulation and lots of exercise. The amount of guard dogs just left by themselves with no human contact for long periods at a time, usually tied up and kept outside without adequate housing is depressing.

Karma25

For intimidation purposes alone I would pick the Cane Corso. Fierce looking

On my own experiences, a Jack Russell. My neigbour has one and she forgot her front door keys one day and wanted me to jump the high fence to get her keys for the back door which were hidden in her back. I then needed to walk through the house and open the front for her. As soon as I had the back door opened in the kitchen was the Jack Russell. Not a bark out of him, he just bared his teeth a few times. That little warning was enough for me to say Screw it!

Bullseye1

I could be wrong but I think the Cane Corso is banned or extremely restricted.

Discodog

poozers wrote: »

also, the people at the animal welfare will be able to give you an idea of the dogs personality, what theyre like with kids and other dogs etc etc! also, these are dogs that are looking for homes and will be MORE than happy to get one from someone whos looking!

If you say to a rescue that you want a dog as a guard they will rightly not let you take a dog.

There is no such thing as a breed that guards. You can turn a Yorkie into a Guard dog just as easily as a Rottie or GSD. The danger comes from the fact that owners encourage their dog to guard & then a kid climbs over the gate. Dogs are never naturally aggressive so many dog bites are the result of people mis-training the poor dog so that it does not know the right way to react.

I find it disturbing that some posters here are happily recommending large powerful breeds to use a personal protection devices. When this goes wrong, as it often does, the dog either ends up being put down or a rescue has to invest huge amounts of time trying to rehabilitate the dog.

Even worse it gives the impression that the chosen breed is aggressive which is why we already have a restricted breed list. These breeds need to be seen as adorable family pets not guard dogs.

DBB

Bullseye1 wrote: »

I could be wrong but I think the Cane Corso is banned or extremely restricted.

The Cane Corso does not feature on our list of 11 breeds which have control restrictions imposed. So it is subject to no more control legislation than a Labrador.
Not a dog I'd recommend around a family home.

Shanao

DBB wrote: »

The Cane Corso does not feature on our list of 11 breeds which have control restrictions imposed. So it is subject to no more control legislation than a Labrador.
Not a dog I'd recommend around a family home.

+1 on this. I've only met one in my lifetime so far, and definitely not a dog for the faint of heart. I think they're included in the breed ban in the UK.

TBH, I'm a bit lost here as well on the difference between a watchdog and a guarddog unless the OP really is looking for a dog that will bite first, ask questions later. There are a lot of dogs that will look intimidating, but are big slobs at heart, my own fella for one, but that's all their good for is scare tactics. Any big dog will look intimidating though; having a st bernard running towards you barking can be pretty scary.

Oranage2

Shanao wrote: »

+1 on this. I've only met one in my lifetime so far, and definitely not a dog for the faint of heart. I think they're included in the breed ban in the UK.

TBH, I'm a bit lost here as well on the difference between a watchdog and a guarddog unless the OP really is looking for a dog that will bite first, ask questions later. There are a lot of dogs that will look intimidating, but are big slobs at heart, my own fella for one, but that's all their good for is scare tactics. Any big dog will look intimidating though; having a st bernard running towards you barking can be pretty scary.

Its been established that the OP wants a dog that will bark at intruders and keep barking at intruders(though not biting), unlike his dogs they will bark then run to the intruder looking for belly rubs.

I've come across dogs like this but its never a specific breed, its more the dogs personality.

Bullseye1

DBB wrote: »

The Cane Corso does not feature on our list of 11 breeds which have control restrictions imposed. So it is subject to no more control legislation than a Labrador.
Not a dog I'd recommend around a family home.

That list only deals with dogs which people are slowed to keep but under strict conditions. But I'm sure there was a list of 4-5 dogs which have even tighter controls. I think the Dogo Argentino, Fila Brasileiro, Tosa Inu and American Pitbull are on that list. Or maybe it only refers to the UK.

Discodog

Oranage2 wrote: »

Its been established that the OP wants a dog that will bark at intruders and keep barking at intruders(though not biting), unlike his dogs they will bark then run to the intruder looking for belly rubs.

I've come across dogs like this but its never a specific breed, its more the dogs personality.

The point is that the dog will either have an excited bark, hackles down, or an aggressive, hackles up, bark. To anyone who knows the difference the first one will not seem threatening but it will to most people.

If the OP wants the second then you can't train the dog to bark aggressively without the risk that it will bite.

ISDW

Bullseye1 wrote: »

That list only deals with dogs which people are slowed to keep but under strict conditions. But I'm sure there was a list of 4-5 dogs which have even tighter controls. I think the Dogo Argentino, Fila Brasileiro, Tosa Inu and American Pitbull are on that list. Or maybe it only refers to the UK.

Yeah, thats is a UK list, it has nothing to do with us here. Those dogs are banned under UK law, there are no banned breeds in Eire.

DBB

Bullseye1 wrote: »

That list only deals with dogs which people are slowed to keep but under strict conditions. But I'm sure there was a list of 4-5 dogs which have even tighter controls. I think the Dogo Argentino, Fila Brasileiro, Tosa Inu and American Pitbull are on that list. Or maybe it only refers to the UK.

As ISDW says, these breeds are banned in the UK and NI and does not, in any case, include the Cane Corso. There is no ban keeping any breed in the Republic of Ireland.
In Ireland, the only special restrictions apply to the eleven breeds as listed in the Control of Dogs Regulations 1998 (S.I. No. 442/1998), which does not include the Cane Corso.
In either case, whether you live in Ireland or the UK, the Cane Corso is not subject to any controls that a Labrador isn't.

Bullseye1

Thanks for the clarification. Strange that they only adopted some of the UKs laws and leave out the banned breeds altogether. Just shows how out of touch Irish Politicians are.

ISDW

Bullseye1 wrote: »

Thanks for the clarification. Strange that they only adopted some of the UKs laws and leave out the banned breeds altogether. Just shows how out of touch Irish Politicians are.

Well personally I think that the fact there is any BSL at all shows how out of touch they are. I don't understand your point that that we adopted some of the UK laws? Any Irish laws that are the same as the UK tend to be old laws, from pre-independence legislation.