ONE JOULE GONE ?

NakedDex

I heard there was a meeting, everyone was there and some things were said.

F.U.B.A.R

when started airsoft about a year ago I thought the range of an aeg was governed by its fps and I will admit I votted yes on every poll I could find But after having a conversation with DeBurca about my S System M4 wich does roughly 300fps on a good day and I can get maybe 90 - 100ft aswell and thought it was the bees knees after my JG G36 doing 50ft (barely :pac:) but he said why not 150ft...... 200ft ....... 250ft! I was amazed thats actualy possible without going over 1j :eek: lol

T4RGET

F.U.B.A.R wrote: »

when started airsoft about a year ago I thought the range of an aeg was governed by its fps and I will admit I votted yes on every poll I could find But after having a conversation with DeBurca about my S System M4 wich does roughly 300fps on a good day and I can get maybe 90 - 100ft aswell and thought it was the bees knees after my JG G36 doing 50ft (barely :pac:) but he said why not 150ft...... 200ft ....... 250ft! I was amazed thats actualy possible without going over 1j :eek: lol

barrels and hop up

Arkslippy

You sometimes get a combination that just matches up.

I had a Pdw that fired about 80m very accurately. Short barrel, but a tightbore one and a clear guarder rubber, madbul ultimate hopup.

My current short m4 is similar and its so cheap to do. Less than 50 quid.

Alvin T. Grey

sliabh wrote: »

Is the current 1J limit explicitly stated in the legislation, and therefore would require a new bill in order for it to be changed. Or is the power limit set by ministerial order (or the similar) and therefore could be changed without legislation?

Yep amendment to the firearms act 1925 (Criminal Justice act 2006)

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2006/en/act/pub/0026/print.html#sec25

firearm ” means—

(a) a lethal firearm or other lethal weapon of any description from which any shot, bullet or other missile can be discharged,

(b) an air gun (including an air rifle and air pistol) with a muzzle energy greater than one joule or any other weapon incorporating a barrel from which any projectile can be discharged with such a muzzle energy,


1J one joule.
The bit in red = Airsoft/Paintball
So without further amendment of law, this is how it stays.
BTW thanks to the original guys in the IAA for their work on this.

Hivemind187

Alvin T. Grey wrote: »

Yep amendment to the firearms act 1925 (Criminal Justice act 2006)

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2006/en/act/pub/0026/print.html#sec25

firearm ” means—

(a) a lethal firearm or other lethal weapon of any description from which any shot, bullet or other missile can be discharged,

(b) an air gun (including an air rifle and air pistol) with a muzzle energy greater than one joule or any other weapon incorporating a barrel from which any projectile can be discharged with such a muzzle energy,


1J one joule.
The bit in red = Airsoft/Paintball
So without further amendment of law, this is how it stays.
BTW thanks to the original guys in the IAA for their work on this.

ATG pretty much summed it up here.

In the meetings with the DOJ and all correspondence there has never been any indication that they have realisitically considered a raised limit. In order to alter the current definition of a firearm (which you have to understand is the only reason we exist as a sport at all) it would require a change in the actual legislation - something that is notoriously difficult to achieve.

The 1j definition is based on hard data collected by (open to correction) the Metropolitan Police which stated that a force in excess of 1.35j was required to cause penetration with a spherical round in soft tissues.

This is why the law doesnt talk about engagement ranges or "bolt action sniperz only kthxbye". It would have no meaning in law because it relies on the arbitrary judgement of an individual to discern whether they are at the correct distance to fire. With so many variable affecting the flight and impact velocity of a BB it would be impossible to ascertain with any reasonable certainty if someone had acted irresponsibly. 1joule sets a measureable scientific standard that every one can be held to regardless of "distances" or mechanical action of the gun.

Also, regarding the "bolt action only" stuff. A round that is travelling over a distance deemed safe in the established way (muzzle energy and impact energy) is going to do the same ammount of harm whether it is bolt action, semi-auto or full auto fed. The restrictions on semi-auto rifles we see at foreign games is more about game mechanics than any genuine safety concern.

(founding member of the IAA, 2 term Vice-Chair)

sliabh

Alvin T. Grey wrote: »

Yep amendment to the firearms act 1925 (Criminal Justice act 2006)

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2006/en/act/pub/0026/print.html#sec25

firearm ” means—

(a) a lethal firearm or other lethal weapon of any description from which any shot, bullet or other missile can be discharged,

(b) an air gun (including an air rifle and air pistol) with a muzzle energy greater than one joule or any other weapon incorporating a barrel from which any projectile can be discharged with such a muzzle energy,

and

Hivemind187 wrote: »

In order to alter the current definition of a firearm (which you have to understand is the only reason we exist as a sport at all) it would require a change in the actual legislation - something that is notoriously difficult to achieve.

That is what I thought. So without the Government introducing new legislation, there will be no change.

I am open to correction here, but there is no new firearms legislation scheduled in this Dail session, and there isn't even a mention of it in the programme for government. Therefore this is not going to happen in any shape or form*.

Anyone claiming otherwise has a pretty big hurdle of evidence to overcome first.

*Except of course that there is a need for emergency legislation, and that would only happen to restrict firearms, and/or airsoft devices after some negative incident/publicity.

fayer

sliabh wrote: »

I am open to correction here, but there is no new firearms legislation scheduled in this Dail session, and there isn't even a mention of it in the programme for government. Therefore this is not going to happen in any shape or form*.

Thank Christ this is not in the PFG, if it was that would be an open door for negative actions against us, not positive.

Lemming

Hivemind187 wrote: »

Also, regarding the "bolt action only" stuff. A round that is travelling over a distance deemed safe in the established way (muzzle energy and impact energy) is going to do the same ammount of harm whether it is bolt action, semi-auto or full auto fed. The restrictions on semi-auto rifles we see at foreign games is more about game mechanics than any genuine safety concern.

In the UK, the whole bolt-action (and pistols, but that's another matter) with higher FPS thing is, much like how airsoft in Ireland started, a quirk of written law - in so far as I understand it. FireKitten would be able to clarify this more definitively.

UK law uses the term "self-loading" (e.g. something that is capable of automatic fire; that includes AEG DMRs but we wont get into that debate just yet ...) in relation to what is covered by explicit FPS limits, of which bolt-action mechanics do not allow since it's a manual process involving the shooter operating the bolt. Hence why you'll find higher FPS tolerances for bolties. The 420/500FPS thing is a site-imposed limit.

Firekitten

Basically Lemming is right, Self loading is the UK definition. The reason we have 500fps bolties, is because its NOT in law.
Air rifles, which bolties count as, are allowed upto 12ft lb energy. Which, would ruin your day. So... 500fps was set back in the day, by some site owner, for bolt action use. Technically, if its over 1.35j, you cant shoot someone with it. but hey... Airsoft is a load of bent rules, and dodgy lines.

So no, the UK has no Legal allowance for bolt action rifles, more... a legal brainfart. Semi auto at 500... is a crock of poo, and we wont go into that, but dont expect you'll get that legalised any time soon.

As hivemind rightly said, the Met did some research with balistic gel, and pigs eyeballs.... trust me, bbs dont make pretty sights. This is why its 1j/1./35 MAX limit in the uk, 1j was reportedly the max velocity before damage occured. 1.35 was a given variance for conditions. Essentially its a mess... I wouldnt expect you to get 'special' bolty increases, or upgrades, or variances given, because like the uk, that variance will become an accepted higher level, and politicians aint that stupid.

hrta

Hivemind187 wrote: »

ATG pretty much summed it up here.

The 1j definition is based on hard data collected by (open to correction) the Metropolitan Police which stated that a force in excess of 1.35j was required to cause penetration with a spherical round in soft tissues.

(founding member of the IAA, 2 term Vice-Chair)

Is this what you were looking for, my god, has it been that long ago:D
nonex
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The 1 joule limit is based on advice from uk Forensic Science
Airsoft weapons (BB guns)

The term airsoft weapon can be applied to any air or gas powered weapon designed to discharge a projectile at muzzle energies greater than 0.08 joules, but less than 1 joule. The 1 joule limit is based on advice from the Government’s Forensic Science Service, which itself is based on the judgement in the case of Moore v Gooderham ((1960) 1 W.L.R. 1308 - see link below). In that case it was held that an air pistol with a muzzle energy of I ft lb (about 1.35 joules) was capable of inflicting a penetrating injury and could be considered lethally barrelled, thereby meeting the definition of firearm given in Section 57 of the Firearms Act 1968. This prompted the Forensic Science Service to advise that any air or gas powered weapon with a muzzle energy greater than 1 joule should be considered to be a firearm.

Typically, airsoft guns (often referred to as BB guns) are designed to discharge a 6mm plastic pellet at a muzzle energy so low (typically between 0.2 and 0.8 joules) as to render them incapable of inflicting any injury more serious than a superficial bruise. They do not meet the legal definition of a firearm and are not considered to be subject to the provisions of the firearms legislation except in the instances given above for toys.

The above post link is here http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=52866847

You can read all about it here, http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/d_to_g/firearms/

hrta

Eminence wrote: »

Ive heard today from an airsoft player that he has been told by someone that the joule limit is supposed to be taken of as of next year?
anyone anything to say to that?

I'd say there could be a mix up, the new EU fire arms directive, says that air guns are not now firearms, so it could be a small mix up in info.

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:32008L0051:en:NOT

Article 1

Amendments to Directive 91/477/EEC

Directive 91/477/EEC is hereby amended as follows:

1. Article 1 shall be amended as follows:

(a) paragraph 1 shall be replaced by the following:

"1. For the purposes of this Directive, "firearm" shall mean any portable barrelled weapon that expels, is designed to expel or may be converted to expel a shot, bullet or projectile by the action of a combustible propellant, unless it is excluded for one of the reasons listed in Part III of Annex I. Firearms are classified in part II of Annex I.

For the purposes of this Directive, an object shall be considered as capable of being converted to expel a shot, bullet or projectile by the action of a combustible propellant if:

- it has the appearance of a firearm, and

- as a result of its construction or the material from which it is made, it can be so converted

Fionnacus

shane_rafferty wrote: »

I think 1j is fine its not the power its how you play.
If they are ever going to change the power it will most likely down not up.
We should be happy its 1j and not like Germany with a half j power.
So we should be happy with the limit its fine as it is

Dude you're dead wrong germany has a limit of 7.5 joules, I hate to reply to old posts but I see people quoting the german law a lot and they are wrong. Granted you have to be over 18 and your gun has to have special markings and can only shoot on semiautomatic but other than that you can have 7.5 joules

Witcher

Fionnacus wrote: »

Dude you're dead wrong germany has a limit of 7.5 joules, I hate to reply to old posts but I see people quoting the german law a lot and they are wrong. Granted you have to be over 18 and your gun has to have special markings and can only shoot on semiautomatic but other than that you can have 7.5 joules

The thread is a year old ffs:rolleyes:

Dogwatch

Zombie thread. Fionnacus check the dates on the posts before responding please and again read the Charter

Thread closed