District Court judge: Replace social welfare money with vouchers

DonJose

A District Court judge has said it is "high time" that those who spend their social welfare payments on alcohol and drugs should receive vouchers instead of cash.

At Mullingar District Court Judge Seamus Hughes said the sooner the day comes that coupons and not money is handed out, the better.

Judge Hughes made the comments as he was dealing with the case of a 25-year-old Mullingar man with an alcohol addiction who has amassed 27 convictions.

Kevin McDonagh of 22, Grange Park, Mullingar was in court to purge his contempt for disruptive behaviour at last week's sitting.

His solicitor Patricia Cronin admitted that he had been smelling of drink when she dealt with him that morning and said his chronic use of alcohol is known to gardai.

McDonagh acknowledged that "hard-pressed" taxpayers, including gardaí, make his social welfare payment possible and apologized for his behaviour.

Judge Hughes said there are no "checks and balances" in the current system and said that "surely a system could be devised".

McDonagh will complete 240 hours community service in lieu of a three-month sentence for threatening behaviour towards gardaí, with the judge noting it will give him an opportunity to "make better use" of his hands.

http://breakingnews.ie/ireland/district-court-judge-replace-social-welfare-money-with-vouchers-514662.html

sgb

Bring back the butter vouchers

wonderfulname

How do you police it? They'll just sell the vouchers.

Einhard

Why is it any business of the judge what anyone else spends their money on, as long as it's not illegal?

DonJose

The fella in the article is 25, has 27 convictions and probably hasn't worked a day in his life, is it fair that he should receive the same dole as a person who has worked most of their life only to be let go recently. I agree that long term unemployed and the "unemployable" should be given vouchers and those who lost their jobs should be paid a percentage of their earnings, decreasing the longer they are unemployed until they reach the dole level of pay.

MagicMarker

Anyone on the dole who is convicted of any crime should have their dole taken away, period.

flyaway.

I don't like the idea... I think a lot of people would be embarrassed to be paying with vouchers. It doesn't seem like a good idea to punish everybody just because a few people are getting in trouble.

Gummy Panda

Didn't judges refuse to pay the pension levy like other civil servants?

7sr2z3fely84g5

DonJose wrote: »

The fella in the article is 25, has 27 convictions and probably hasn't worked a day in his life, is it fair that he should receive the same dole as a person who has worked most of their life only to be let go recently. I agree that long term unemployed and the "unemployable" should be given vouchers and those who lost their jobs should be paid a percentage of their earnings, decreasing the longer they are unemployed until they reach the dole level of pay.

Agree on this,same with junkies,there something needs to be done instead of giving them welfare from taxpayer,walking down to get methadone from the taxpayer and off for the day then.

IngazZagni

Einhard wrote: »

Why is it any business of the judge what anyone else spends their money on, as long as it's not illegal?

Eh because he's spending taxpayer money on alcohol and possibly drugs. Therefore it is to an extent all our business.
The foodstamp program in the States, while far from perfect I think is a much better way of providing basic support for those that need it. It would be worth investing in research into how such a program could work in Ireland.

newballsplease

MagicMarker wrote: »

Anyone on the dole who is convicted of any crime should have their dole taken away, period.

Any crime?? Speeding?

bmarley

What a great idea! - Maybe government could open up a specialised supermarket for those on welfare payments and give helpful advice on how to cook nutritious meals etc. Oh and how could other bills be paid such as electricity, heating, car tax etc..

My name is URL

What a stupid thing for a judge to say. Does he believe that junkies will just give up on their addiction because they're handed vouchers instead of cash? They'll either sell the vouchers or start stealing in order to feed their habits.

Tehachapi

DonJose wrote: »

McDonagh acknowledged that "hard-pressed" taxpayers, including gardaí, make his social welfare payment possible and apologized for his behaviour

Well he's talking sh1te there, garda taxes don't pay his social welfare at all. In fact their money comes from the same pot. It's private sector taxpayers, and the IMF/EU who are making his social welfare payment possible.

Eric Cartman

wonderfulname wrote: »

How do you police it? They'll just sell the vouchers.

to who , who the f*ck would want food vouchers

MungBean

State should take over a supermarket chain, allow people on welfare to pay with welfare card. Allow a certain amount to be cashable and the rest to only be used in the supermarket. Wouldnt be as embarrassing as using vouchers, would avoid all the waste of people spending their dole on drink and drugs and whatnot. And would actually be a money maker for the state. Profit goes into expanding the supermarket chain leading to more jobs.

Yes yes I know GTFO you commie scum, coming in here with your crack pot ideas of saving money and helping everyone.




gets me coat

marxcoo

MagicMarker wrote: »

Anyone on the dole who is convicted of any crime should have their dole taken away, period.

So what... force them to live on the street and engage in even more crime?

Tehachapi

newballsplease wrote: »

Any crime?? Speeding?

Speeding is not a criminal offence.

Mike 1972

MagicMarker wrote: »

Anyone on the dole who is convicted of any crime should have their dole taken away, period.

Great idea but let take it a bit further.

If YOU get gone for even the most minor offence (ANY crime remember) even something traffic/parking related you should have your salary taken away and be forced to work for nothing (rabble rabble)

DonJose

My name is URL wrote: »

What a stupid thing for a judge to say. Does he believe that junkies will just give up on their addiction because they're handed vouchers instead of cash? They'll either sell the vouchers or start stealing in order to feed their habits.

Like the junkies aren't doing this already. Below is from the same Judge regarding the same case but more details.

"He referred to the case of another man who came before him recently and spent €120 of his €180 payment on heroin immediately after getting it."

Full story,

Mullingar’s District Court judge has said it’s “high time” that those who spend their social welfare payments on drink and drugs should receive vouchers instead of cash.

“The sooner the day comes that vouchers and not money is handed out, the better,” Judge Seamus Hughes said yesterday.

He was referring to “the majority, the more than 90 per cent of young offenders who are not working, are on social welfare, and are committing public order offences”.

He said they are using their social welfare payments to buy drink and drugs when it is intended to provide for “the basic necessities” such as food and clothing.

He was dealing with the case of a 25-year-old Mullingar man with an alcohol addiction who has amassed 27 convictions, many of them for public order offences.

Kevin McDonagh of 22 Grange Park, Mullingar was in court to purge his contempt for disruptive behaviour at last week’s sitting of the court when he was remanded in custody for seven days.

His solicitor Patricia Cronin admitted that he had been smelling of drink when she dealt with him that morning, on July 21, and said his chronic use of alcohol would be known to gardaí.

There were also suggestions that he had been under the influence when he made an obscene gesture at gardai as they passed him at 11.20am the day before as he queued to sign on at Mullingar’s social welfare office.

McDonagh acknowledged that “hard pressed” taxpayers, including gardai make his social welfare payment possible and apologised for his behaviour in court.

Judge Hughes said there are no “checks and balances” in the current system and said that “surely a system could be devised” which would allow welfare payments to be made in vouchers that would be acceptable to supermarkets and for bill payments.

He referred to the case of another man who came before him recently and spent €120 of his €180 payment on heroin immediately after getting it.

McDonagh will complete 240 hours community service in lieu of a three month sentence for threatening behaviour towards gardai, with the judge noting it will give him an opportunity to “make better use” of his hands.

He also said it would avoid “costing the taxpayer a fortune” by sending him to prison.

“I’ll be on your case,” he told the young man, advising that he will be in jeopardy any time he appears before him before he is due to retire in 11 years.

“By the time you’re 36 I’ll have made a man of you,” he concluded.

http://www.advertiser.ie/mullingar/article/42429/abuse-of-social-welfare-lamented-by-district-judge

Sunnyisland

MagicMarker wrote: »

Anyone on the dole who is convicted of any crime should have their dole taken away, period.

And to people who are employed they could have there wages cut

marxcoo

Eric Cartman wrote: »

to who , who the f*ck would want food vouchers

People buying food perhaps. Sell the voucher off for less than it's worth and plenty of people will be willing to take it off their hands.

MagicMarker

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Great idea but let take it a bit further.

If YOU get gone for even the most minor offence (ANY crime remember) even something traffic/parking related you should have your salary taken away and be forced to work for nothing (rabble rabble)

Because that's the same thing and not even remotely retarded rabble rabble.

Eric Cartman

Einhard wrote: »

Why is it any business of the judge what anyone else spends their money on, as long as it's not illegal?

because social welfare , paid for by the judge, you, me and every other working person in ireland is going to fund these people.

The dole is for surviving , not living ,

drink, smokes, holidays, designer clothes, drugs etc.. are not essential parts of surviving, let alone the people saving dole in savings accounts , why should you get to save my tax money for the next time you need a holiday. its a disgrace and it should have been done as vouchers years ago , we wouldnt have half the drug problem we do in this country if the dole wasnt in cash, id also say there would be a sharp decrease in foreign nationals on the dole aswell as single mothers just out of school.

Sunnyisland

Eric Cartman wrote: »

to who , who the f*ck would want food vouchers

Big black market for the butter vouchers in the 80,s, Some people mostly shopkeepers made a small fortune.

IngazZagni

My name is URL wrote: »

What a stupid thing for a judge to say. Does he believe that junkies will just give up on their addiction because they're handed vouchers instead of cash? They'll either sell the vouchers or start stealing in order to feed their habits.

Of course it's not going to solve the problem by doing this. But by having less physical cash and more vouchers it makes it harder to buy things outside of what they are intended for. Yes you probably could try selling them but I doubt they would be very popular and thus yield less cash verses how much the voucher is worth. There is no one solution to the puzzle, this is just one small piece to it.

Eric Cartman

realies wrote: »

Big black market for the butter vouchers in the 80,s, Some people mostly shopkeepers made a small fortune.

this is leading back to my cashless laser card idea, stamps a lot of that out

Shane L

IngazZagni wrote: »

Eh because he's spending taxpayer money on alcohol and possibly drugs. Therefore it is to an extent all our business.
The foodstamp program in the States, while far from perfect I think is a much better way of providing basic support for those that need it. It would be worth investing in research into how such a program could work in Ireland.

I never want to follow the model of a country which is in 14 trillion dollars worth of debt. Or the fact its still the biggest abuser of all nations when it comes to illegal drugs ( correct me if I'm wrong I remember seeing the statistic but can't find it). I agree though we need some sort of model though :P

batistuta9

MagicMarker wrote: »

Anyone on the dole who is convicted of any crime should have their dole taken away, period.

That's a ridiculous statement. There are a lot of people who have been convicted for various things and that doesn't make them hardened or serious criminals. Minor motor offences or one public order when a person was young are good examples of this.
People who are involve in crime are then even more likely to commit robberies to have some money to live on. It would make crime rates soar if anything.

Food vouchers aren't that bad an idea but as someone said would be hard to police

Shane L

IngazZagni wrote: »

Eh because he's spending taxpayer money on alcohol and possibly drugs. Therefore it is to an extent all our business.
The foodstamp program in the States, while far from perfect I think is a much better way of providing basic support for those that need it. It would be worth investing in research into how such a program could work in Ireland.

I never want to follow the model of a country which is in 14 trillion dollars worth of debt. Or the fact its still the biggest abuser of all nations when it comes to illegal drugs ( correct me if I'm wrong I remember seeing the statistic but can't find it). I agree though we need some sort of model though :P

Tehachapi

Eric Cartman wrote: »

because social welfare , paid for by the judge

No, judges do not pay for the social welfare. Anyone paid by the state (gardai, judges, doctors, teachers, etc) are not contributing a cent to others social welfare. I'll draw a diagram:

(Private sector taxes + IMF/EU/ECB loans)

---

> [State Money]

---

> (Public sector staff + Social welfare)

Mike 1972

Eric Cartman wrote: »

drink, smokes, holidays, designer clothes, drugs etc.. are not essential parts of surviving, let alone the people saving dole in savings accounts.

If someone on the dole has the money management skills and self discipline to actually manage to set aside some of their money for savings its something I reckon should actually be applauded.

The country needs more people like that.

Eric Cartman

Mike 1972 wrote: »

If someone on the dole has the money management skills and self discipline to actually manage to set aside some of their money for savings its something I reckon should actually be applauded.

The country needs more people like that.

its fairly easy to do if your still living with your parents and getting 120 a week or whatever it is

Einhard

IngazZagni wrote: »

Eh because he's spending taxpayer money on alcohol and possibly drugs. Therefore it is to an extent all our business.

Why? Why should it bother you what a dole recipient spends his money on as long as it's legal? Are you saying that you're ok with him spending his dole on apples and oranges, but not on alcohol? Seems pretty puritanical to me.

Eric Cartman wrote: »

because social welfare , paid for by the judge, you, me and every other working person in ireland is going to fund these people.

The dole is for surviving , not living ,

drink, smokes, holidays, designer clothes, drugs etc.. are not essential parts of surviving, let alone the people saving dole in savings accounts , why should you get to save my tax money for the next time you need a holiday. its a disgrace and it should have been done as vouchers years ago , we wouldnt have half the drug problem we do in this country if the dole wasnt in cash, id also say there would be a sharp decrease in foreign nationals on the dole aswell as single mothers just out of school.

Well, I don't believe that the dole should only cover the core costs of survival, and nothing else. People don't become less human when they lose their jobs...

I understand that people are frustrated at the SW system in Ireland, but once money is handed over to someone, it shouldn't be the concern of anyone else how that money is spent- as long as it's legal obviously. You want to reform the dole, and reduce the amounts paid? Fine, that's a reasonable POV- but to seek to contro how people spend their money crosses the line IMO.

Chuck Stone

Who gives a fuck what a gobshite judge thinks? He makes much of his living from the (immoral) fact that drugs are illegal - the stupid prick is probably costing the public way more than that junkie.

Dismatle the prohibition of drugs farce and get rid of half the legal profession.




.

Tehachapi

Shane L wrote: »

I never want to follow the model of a country which is in 14 trillion dollars worth of debt.

As a percentage of their GDP it's not even 100%.

Ireland GDP = €160 billion. We already owe a lot more than 100% of that. In fact by 2014 it's looking closer to 200% of that so they are actually in better shape than us.

My name is URL

IngazZagni wrote: »

Of course it's not going to solve the problem by doing this. But by having less physical cash and more vouchers it makes it harder to buy things outside of what they are intended for. Yes you probably could try selling them but I doubt they would be very popular and thus yield less cash verses how much the voucher is worth. There is no one solution to the puzzle, this is just one small piece to it.

Are we talking about only issuing them to people who have shown to have problems with addiction, or everyone on the dole? I hardly think it's fair to place restrictions like that on people who are fully entitled to and not abusive towards the welfare system. Why should someone who has paid taxes for years be forced to only spend their money on certain things?

Adyx

IngazZagni wrote: »

Eh because he's spending taxpayer money on alcohol and possibly drugs. Therefore it is to an extent all our business.
The foodstamp program in the States, while far from perfect I think is a much better way of providing basic support for those that need it. It would be worth investing in research into how such a program could work in Ireland.

That doesn't mean it's for the judge to comment on in his capacity as a judge.
As for the first part of your post which I bolded, the same is true of all public sector employees (including judges and politicians) to an extent, although granted they pay tax themselves.

Skunkle wrote: »

State should take over a supermarket chain, allow people on welfare to pay with welfare card. Allow a certain amount to be cashable and the rest to only be used in the supermarket. Wouldnt be as embarrassing as using vouchers, would avoid all the waste of people spending their dole on drink and drugs and whatnot. And would actually be a money maker for the state. Profit goes into expanding the supermarket chain leading to more jobs.

Yes yes I know GTFO you commie scum, coming in here with your crack pot ideas of saving money and helping everyone.




gets me coat

Who's going to pay for this supermarket chain and how will you establish a branch in every city, town and village in the country?

Mike 1972

Eric Cartman wrote: »

its fairly easy to do .....

Speaking from experience are we ?

Eric Cartman

Einhard wrote: »

Why? Why should it bother you what a dole recipient spends his money on as long as it's legal? Are you saying that you're ok with him spending his dole on apples and oranges, but not on alcohol? Seems pretty puritanical to me.

I have nothign against people buying alcohol , on social welfare or not , but a bit of restriction and not allowing this comfortable lifestyle some people have living on the dole would definitley get people back to work.

its all to easy to sit there in a flat with rent allowance paid , and your dole covering smokes, beer, sky tv etc.... and not look for a job , if you get people into a mindset of 'shít i cant drink , cant smoke, have no tv, cant go on holiday, cant go to a gig' it leaves you with people going mad with boredom instead of being comfortable, youd soon have a bunch of people up off the dole and activley looking for work and trying to find any way off the dole so they could enjoy themselves again.

Eric Cartman

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Speaking from experience are we ?

i went to school/college with people who made living on welfare their careers , theyve told me all the tricks and scams and how wonderful it is , its a disgrace

marxcoo

Eric Cartman wrote: »

I have nothign against people buying alcohol , on social welfare or not , but a bit of restriction and not allowing this comfortable lifestyle some people have living on the dole would definitley get people back to work.

its all to easy to sit there in a flat with rent allowance paid , and your dole covering smokes, beer, sky tv etc.... and not look for a job , if you get people into a mindset of 'shít i cant drink , cant smoke, have no tv, cant go on holiday, cant go to a gig' it leaves you with people going mad with boredom instead of being comfortable, youd soon have a bunch of people up off the dole and activley looking for work and trying to find any way off the dole so they could enjoy themselves again.

The vast majority of people cannot live comfortably on the dole. Don't believe the hype.

sollar

Einhard wrote: »

Why is it any business of the judge what anyone else spends their money on, as long as it's not illegal?

Because its the states money and they can decide how to dole it out as they please.

afrodub

I think this was a poor `judgement`remark to have made,the point is entitlement first to welfare and not to `judge` what individuals do with it,it is not unlawful to spend on alcohol,yet.

dvpower

sollar wrote: »

Because its the states money and they can decide how to dole it out as they please.

A judge is an employee of the state, not a representative.

If he thought he had a good idea, he should probably have written a letter to Joan Burton or Alan Shatter whose departments could evaluate it.

I'm not sure its a good idea for judges to be making public pronouncements on matters of public policy; separation of powers and all that.

IngazZagni

My name is URL wrote: »

Are we talking about only issuing them to people who have shown to have problems with addiction, or everyone on the dole? I hardly think it's fair to place restrictions like that on people who are fully entitled to and not abusive towards the welfare system. Why should someone who has paid taxes for years be forced to only spend their money on certain things?

Because it's tax-payer money. It's so you can get by. It's not to buy a new telly or go out and get wasted in town. I feel buying fancy products like an ipad with dole money is abusing the system. That's not what it meant for. It is to provide basic support for you including food and bills. And if you are paying bills for 50meg broadband, cut it to 10megor whatever. Things like this is what I'm talking about.

marxcoo

IngazZagni wrote: »

Because it's tax-payer money. It's so you can get by. It's not to buy a new telly or go out and get wasted in town. I feel buying fancy products like an ipad with dole money is abusing the system. That's not what it meant for. It is to provide basic support for you including food and bills. And if you are paying bills for 50meg broadband, cut it to 10megor whatever. Things like this is what I'm talking about.

You can't dictate what people spend their dole money on. If the money is going to stretch to buy something nice (which for most it won't) then why stop them doing it. Do you think you should provide people with money that they should spend on only the neccessities and anything that's left over they should return to the SW office??? Businesses are reliant on people spending their dole money as much as they are reliant on people spending their wages.

IngazZagni

marxcoo wrote: »

You can't dictate what people spend their dole money on. If the money is going to stretch to buy something nice (which for most it won't) then why stop them doing it. Do you think you should provide people with money that they should spend on only the neccessities and anything that's left over they should return to the SW office??? Businesses are reliant on people spending their dole money as much as they are reliant on people spending their wages.

You are talking about an ideal World, something that we can only dream of. Yes if someone is able to afford to spend dole money on luxury items on top of basic needs, then something is wrong with the system. My issue lies with those abusing their dole money on alcohol/gambling and drugs and then find themselves with no money for basic levels of living. These people should have their dole taken off them and given vouchers/stamps instead. Also I don't think stamps are degrading. Only maybe to those that HAD an inflated ego. Having lived in the States for a year I would see many people in the line at the supermarket handing over food stamps and it was such a regular occurrence I never gave a second thought to it. All I'm asking is for it to be given thought to because clearly the current system is a mess. One that is used and abused and it's the regular joe tax-payer that suffers in the end.

bmarley

Unfortunately, there are a large group of people who use and abuse our generous welfare state. There are those who have no interest in supporting themselves and their families, because in some cases it is more beneficial to be on welfare with entitlements such as rent allowances, medical cards, clothing/footwear allowances etc. People who are long term unemployed should be made to take up a placement or other such scheme to set an example for their children. In many families, children's nutritional needs are not being met, not only because parents may not be educated in how to shop for and prepare nutritious meals but also because income into the families is being mis-spent. New schemes introduced by the government do not appear to target those who do not want to work/educate themselves but are instead being taken up by people who already are well educated and want to work. The system is all wrong!

dvpower

IngazZagni wrote: »

Because it's tax-payer money. It's so you can get by. It's not to buy a new telly or go out and get wasted in town. I feel buying fancy products like an ipad with dole money is abusing the system. That's not what it meant for. It is to provide basic support for you including food and bills.

Yes. The basics. Certainly not televisions sets. Having a television isn't a basic requirement...

IngazZagni wrote: »

And if you are paying bills for 50meg broadband, cut it to 10megor whatever. Things like this is what I'm talking about.

... but broadband internet is!!

Hand vouchers out, your name on them, your ID required to use them. Have them only redeemable on certain goods, anyone handing over cash for them should be treated as fraudsters, and dealt with by jail.

Simples.