Breaking the law to stop cruelty.

Whispered

Discodog wrote: »

I think that it would be a shame if this becomes a pro/anti eating meat thread.

I know you started the thread to get opinions re the idea of breaking the law and not about the morality of eating meat - but I just wanted to say that my post was not anti eating meat. Unfortunately when the topic of ethically sourcing your food comes up I can't help myself. I know you understand that

loveisdivine - I have to agree with the other poster who said you shouldn't try to persuade your partner into veggie-ism. It's very easy to live in a veggie/non veggie household. Although I'm sure some very militant veggies would think that I may as well eat meat as prepare it for my husband. You're right about people not caring enough, I know of one very well off lady who refuses to buy free range "out of principle". Because it's a bit more expensive. (@DD See can't help myself, sorry )

HR (and others who argue 2 wrongs don't make a right) - if such evidence could be used against the person who is in the video, and also be used as evidence that the video taker trespassed, and they were punished accordingly, Would you consider that an option?

Is liability on the land owner even when you're trespassing true? :-o

Chris_Heilong

Hellrazer wrote: »

You can have all the laws you want but if someone breaks a law to obtain evidence then in the eyes of the law they are as bad as the person who they are trying to gather evidence against.

Unfortunately and despite how much that case on Sky this morning upset people the cameras were hidden illegally after a trespass had occurred and therefore do not count as evidence.Which is correct in my opinion.

Weather it counts as evidence or not should not matter if a crime is being committed, Its a complex matter but as I said one crime should not cancel out another. And Trespassing is a minor crime at that.

vibe666

kildare.17hmr wrote: »

It would be exactly the same actually believe it or not

its a sad world we live in.

homerhop

I understand where you are coming from on this Discodog and think the law should follow up on those cases despite the evidence used being illegal. As always with me there is a but.......Advocating breaking the law because you deem something as cruel is something that is so hard to agree to, how do you define what is cruelty, if people take it on a whim to break the law by removing animals, breaking into property etc because to them they feel an animal is being mistreated is going to land so many people in a lot of trouble.
Take for example if I have a dog who point blank refuses to stay indoors at night, and someone sees my dog in the yard in all kinds of weather, yet despite it having a good kennel plenty of food and water they feel it is cruel that I wont let my dog sleep in the house. I get up some motning to find my dog stolen.
I guess what I am trying to say is your definition of cruelty and joe bloggs from down the road may be 100 miles appart, but it doesnt give anyone the right to take the law into their own hands.

Hellrazer

Whispered wrote: »

HR (and others who argue 2 wrongs don't make a right) - if such evidence could be used against the person who is in the video, and also be used as evidence that the video taker trespassed, and they were punished accordingly, Would you consider that an option?

Personally I wouldnt.Its not the point.The point is that these people trespassed in order to plant hidden cameras in another persons premises.
They should be done for trespass but I dont think that evidence should be allowed because as someone else mentioned if they suspected something untoward was going on they should have contacted the authorities and not taken the law into their own hands.

Its like the case of a big chain store putting hidden cameras in their changing rooms even when they knew something was going on--its still against the law and I doubt one of those people stealing was arrested for it on the evidence of a hidden camera in a changing room.

If we give these people the freedom to plant hidden cameras with a fine or a small punishment for trespass do we allow them to take more extreme measures for their cause and take the punishment that comes with it?If they do take more extreme measures and we jail them then they become martyrs to the cause for want of a better word.

What happened in that video was a disgrace but we cannot take the law into our own hands in order to further our own cause because thats what some people are suggesting.

vibe666

Hellrazer wrote: »

What happened in that video was a disgrace but we cannot take the law into our own hands in order to further our own cause because thats what some people are suggesting.

you might need to surrender your username to someone with less conservative views.

[/joking].

Discodog

Hellrazer wrote: »

I dont think that evidence should be allowed because as someone else mentioned if they suspected something untoward was going on they should have contacted the authorities and not taken the law into their own hands.

Good in theory but probably impossible. An authority can hardly go to an abattoir & say they have heard rumours about animal abuse so can they install some cameras ? The slaughterhouse in question does have cctv.

The recent footage of a circus employee beating an elephant could never of been obtained legally.

In some respects the Galway case is more pertinent here as it is the kind of situation that any of us could find ourselves in. How about if we see an animal in distress such as a lamb caught up in barbed wire ? The only way to save it may involve trespass.

Yes I think that it is reasonable that the trespasser is charged & then it is up to the Court to decide whether it was justified & whether any damage was done.

Surely we can train & appoint animal cruelty inspectors & trust them to enter a field if they believe it to be necessary.

planetX

what is the point of having cruelty inspectors if they can't trespass? Seriously
If any government ever gave a damn about animal cruelty they would appoint inspectors with proper powers. This country is a free for all for abusers.

As for the abattoir workers - it's not really a shock considering what they do for a living. Poor animals probably had no better treatment in the factory farms they came from anyway.

NotInventedHere

People should always come before the welfare of animals.

kildare.17hmr

planetX wrote: »

As for the abattoir workers - it's not really a shock considering what they do for a living. Poor animals probably had no better treatment in the factory farms they came from anyway.

thats some statement to make

Hellrazer

Discodog wrote: »

Good in theory but probably impossible.

Agreed but at the minute its the law.

An authority can hardly go to an abattoir & say they have heard rumours about animal abuse so can they install some cameras ? The slaughterhouse in question does have cctv.

The issue isnt about cameras.
Its about a group of people who trespassed illegally to obtain the evidence.
Its also about a legal authority/body having the right to walk into any premises where animals are kept and inspecting it.The problem over here(and the UK for that matter) is that we dont have enough inspectors so some animal welfare agencies take it on themselves to break the law by trespassing,obtaining evidence thats not submissible and then the case for the cruelty goes down the tube.

The recent footage of a circus employee beating an elephant could never of been obtained legally.

Agreed again--and my suggestion of a body of animal inspectors could have inspected that circus.

In some respects the Galway case is more pertinent here as it is the kind of situation that any of us could find ourselves in. How about if we see an animal in distress such as a lamb caught up in barbed wire ? The only way to save it may involve trespass.

Different kettle of fish--thats in the public view ie if the lamb was on barbed wire where it could be seen from a road etc.

Yes I think that it is reasonable that the trespasser is charged & then it is up to the Court to decide whether it was justified & whether any damage was done.

Of course the trespasser should be charged but the question is wheter evidence obtained in an illegal way (again in the eyes of the law) is permissible in a court--This case has shown that its not.

Surely we can train & appoint animal cruelty inspectors & trust them to enter a field if they believe it to be necessary.

They should be able to enter any premises where any animal is kept unannounced and check the condition of that animal.

But you see thats the difference--A goverment appointed official should be allowed to do this in any and all circmstances--An animal activist shouldnt.Regardless of how we feel about cruelty thats the bottom line.We cannot take the law into our own hands.

Hellrazer

NotInventedHere wrote: »

People should always come before the welfare of animals.

Please dont make statements like that--It adds nothing to the discussion.

Feargal as Luimneach

planetX wrote: »

As for the abattoir workers - it's not really a shock considering what they do for a living. Poor animals probably had no better treatment in the factory farms they came from anyway.

I work in an abattoir. I don't abuse the cattle that come in. If you mistreat the cattle, you will likely get sacked. If there was an inspection from the likes of Tesco and they saw cattle being mistreated, they would cancel their contracts with the factory.

Discodog

Inspectors will never catch the pig abusers or the circus people. They are hardly likely to hurt animals with an inspector on the premises.

There is a long history of abuse, animal & human, that has only been exposed by covert filming or by journalists posing as employees.

loveisdivine

Just for the record I'm not putting pressure on the oh to go veggie. I did make a family rule that we eat at least 1 veggie meal a week, as we dont need to have meat everyday, but that's it.

On topic - if this footage was of children being abused, would people be more likely to advocate illegally obtained footage? Or if it was a person being murdered. Basically something where the victim was a human.

Hellrazer

Discodog wrote: »

Inspectors will never catch the pig abusers or the circus people. They are hardly likely to hurt animals with an inspector on the premises.

Unannounced inspectors with complete access to all areas would have caught both of these.

There is a long history of abuse, animal & human, that has only been exposed by covert filming or by journalists posing as employees.

Posing as an employee--actually becoming an employee is not illegal.Trespassing and putting up hidden cameras is.
Either way I dont agree with journalists using these methods either for what its worth.Look at the whole hacking scandal going on at the minute...do you ageree with that?

Hellrazer

Feargal as Luimneach wrote: »

I work in an abattoir. I don't abuse the cattle that come in. If you mistreat the cattle, you will likely get sacked. If there was an inspection from the likes of Tesco and they saw cattle being mistreated, they would cancel their contracts with the factory.

Exactly--People are making out that every single abattoir is at the same thing hence the big uproar over this one.

Those lads were scum--plain and simple.They should have been reported if there was even a tiny idea that this was going on and let proper justice take its course.

In this particular case the hidden camera and trespassing has ruined any chance of these two going to trial.It backfired completely.

Shazanne

Has anyone read the report on Sky News about cruelty in an abbatoir in some part of England? I have felt sick all day after it and cant get it out of my mind.
Wokers there were punching pigs in the face, burning them with cigarettes, not stunning them properly and dragging them to slaughter by the ears.
Pigs are very sensitive and intelligent animals and the must have been terrified.
I realy hate people like that - really hate them. And I hate being part of a world where this happens. And I cannot understand how a group of workers could be party to this and no-one tried to stop it.
I am sick with upset and anger - I just feel totally distraught and I cant stop thinking about it.

star-pants

Merged Shazannes thread with this existing one on the discussion

Discodog

Hellrazer wrote: »

Unannounced inspectors with complete access to all areas would have caught both of these.

They wouldn't. Everything would stop as soon as an inspector appeared. The slaughter house had CCTV & they either didn't see it or ignored it.

loveisdivine

Discodog wrote: »

Hellrazer wrote: »

Unannounced inspectors with complete access to all areas would have caught both of these.

They wouldn't. Everything would stop as soon as an inspector appeared. The slaughter house had CCTV & they either didn't see it or ignored it.

Exactly! It just wouldnt work.

I agree with whoever said public CCTV is the answer. They wouldn't do it if they knew people could always be watching.

Also, ive only just managed to stop picturing the pig footage. It haunted me all weekend.