Breaking the law to stop cruelty.

Discodog

There have been two examples in the last 24 hours of how difficult it can be to prosecute for cruelty.

This week's Galway Advertiser features a story concerning a man who was prosecuted for cruelty to horses but had his conviction overturned on appeal because the GSPCA inspector did not have permission to be on the land.

Now Sky News are running a story where staff in a slaughterhouse, in the UK, were secretly filmed stubbing cigarettes out on the faces of live pigs & beating them. But the Dept of Agriculture won't act because the film was obtained by trespassing.

So when should it be OK to break the law in order to expose cruelty ?

Alun

To be fair, those kinds of restrictions apply to all kinds of prosecutions, not just animal cruelty cases. It's stupid though in my mind .. it shouldn't matter one iota how the film evidence was acquired, if they're caught doing it, they should be prosecuted, fill stop.

kildare.17hmr

If you did it for one thing you would have to do it for everything else and that wouldn't be good for anyone. them 2 cases are bad though and the people trying to prosicute them should have done a better job at getting permission to investigate

Discodog

The point is that it may be virtually impossible to get a cruelty conviction if you cannot trespass. If you have to ask permission the accused is hardly likely to grant it & if he is forced to then he will move the animal before you can see it.

The Galway judgement allows you to be as cruel as you like provided that you do so on private land & far enough away that it cannot be filmed without trespassing.

I wonder of the situation would be different if a Garda had attended with the GSPCA inspector ?

Discodog

kildare.17hmr wrote: »

If you did it for one thing you would have to do it for everything else and that wouldn't be good for anyone. them 2 cases are bad though and the people trying to prosicute them should have done a better job at getting permission to investigate

The landowner is hardly likely to give permission for someone to come on to his land to investigate his prosecution.

kildare.17hmr

My point was they obviously had some evidence the cruelty was taking place so they should have took this to the relivent authorty and got permission to trespass and film.

I agree its not good for these cases but if you let them do it there will be all sorts of breaches of privicy on innocent people suspected or accused of something they havent done.

Discodog

Many of the scandals, FIFA springs to mind, would never of been exposed without secret filming.

The strange thing is that, up till now, covert filming has been accepted in UK courts in animal cruelty cases.

If innocent people haven't been cruel then the covert filming will exonerate them.

Chris_Heilong

Human filth......but I feel one crime should not cancel out another, the original act of cruelty still occurred and it makes no difference how it can to light the people responsible should be punished, if the courts want to discourage trespassing then they should also charge the people involved but I think the charge would not be that serious, its like the old 'We dont like snitches' back in school.

kildare.17hmr

Discodog wrote: »

Many of the scandals, FIFA springs to mind, would never of been exposed without secret filming.

The strange thing is that, up till now, covert filming has been accepted in UK courts in animal cruelty cases.

If innocent people haven't been cruel then the covert filming will exonerate them.

But it would breach there privacy. If there was a way to do it for animal cruelty like the 2 examples you gave i would be all for it

loveisdivine

I am disgusted by this latest footage on sky news.
I have never seen such horrific cruelty being shown on the news.

To violently punch an animal in the face is so wrong. I am so angry at those workers right now, if they were placed in front of me I wouldnt be able to control myself.

In my opinion there is nothing lower than picking on someone, whether human or not, that is so much more vulnerable than you.

We need to treat animals with respect, especially when we are taking their lives to feed ourselves.

I dont care how they obtained the footage. Like another poster said, one crime doesnt contra the other.

Chris_Heilong

loveisdivine wrote: »

I am disgusted by this latest footage on sky news.
I have never seen such horrific cruelty being shown on the news.

To violently punch an animal in the face is so wrong. I am so angry at those workers right now, if they were placed in front of me I wouldnt be able to control myself.

In my opinion there is nothing lower than picking on someone, whether human or not, that is so much more vulnerable than you.

We need to treat animals with respect, especially when we are taking their lives to feed ourselves.

I dont care how they obtained the footage. Like another poster said, one crime doesnt contra the other.

Maybe the person who filmed it should have went straight to the media with the footage instead of the police, There is something wrong with a system when justice turns a blind eye to people like this.

annascott

I'm not au fait with this area of the law, but there must be some way around this. After all, the garda often enter and search premises when they suspect links with drugs etc. OK, so they have a warrant, but they don't notify the person first and say that they are going to obtain a search warrant to enter the property on a certain date or time.

Could it work whereby SPCA is notified of suspected cruelty, they immediately obtain a warrant at the local Garda Station and proceed with entry on to the premises?

I really wish I hadn't read about the cruelty to the pigs. I am really upset and frustrated at feeling so helpless. Surely anyone capable of torture should be deemed mentally unstable/evil and locked away?

loveisdivine

I think this is going to be the last straw for me.

I dont know how I can continue to eat meat, knowing that these things are going on.

I like to eat meat, but I cannnot support an industry that is riddled with sick weirdos that get kicks out of abusing animals.

We should go back to the medieval (sp) days when people kept their own animals and slaughtered them themselves, at least then we would know they had a good life and were treated with respect.

kildare.17hmr

annascott wrote: »

I'm not au fait with this area of the law, but there must be some way around this. After all, the garda often enter and search premises when they suspect links with drugs etc. OK, so they have a warrant, but they don't notify the person first and say that they are going to obtain a search warrant to enter the property on a certain date or time.

Could it work whereby SPCA is notified of suspected cruelty, they immediately obtain a warrant at the local Garda Station and proceed with entry on to the premises?

Thats the point i was making, they should have brought the info they had to a judge to get a warrent to enter the premisis to film

loveisdivine

annascott wrote: »

I really wish I hadn't read about the cruelty to the pigs. I am really upset and frustrated at feeling so helpless. Surely anyone capable of torture should be deemed mentally unstable/evil and locked away?

Just be thankful you didnt actually see it.
I walked into work and it was right there on Sky news and I before I realised what was going on I'd already seen the worst bits.
Will be stuck in my head for a long time.

Ive seen alot of this kind of thing, so I know bad stuff happens but this pushed me a little too far today.

Mr Moxie

It is bad enough that it happened at all, but the fact that it was filmed and then nothing was done about it is just as bad as doing it again and again, shame on the authorities for not grabbing the opportunity to make an example of these sick individuals.

This entire area of Irish law is so tragic and in my opinion unnecessarily so.
I recently contributed to a similar thread on Facebook and I believe there are lots of people all over Ireland that feel the same as we do about these situations.
Can we start some sort of movement to pressure the government to quite simply strengthen to laws surrounding animals protection? I have direct connections to the current government and I will use them to do what I can.
Any serious thoughts or suggestions on this??
Declan

Mr Moxie

loveisdivine wrote: »

I think this is going to be the last straw for me.

I dont know how I can continue to eat meat, knowing that these things are going on.

I like to eat meat, but I cannnot support an industry that is riddled with sick weirdos that get kicks out of abusing animals.

We should go back to the medieval (sp) days when people kept their own animals and slaughtered them themselves, at least then we would know they had a good life and were treated with respect.

I only started eating meat again earlier this year after 18yrs!
I will only buy it from my friends organic farm in Kildare, it is called Castlefarm, I occasionally help out on the farm and I know what they feed their animals and more importantly how they rear their animals.

Whispered

loveisdivine wrote: »

I dont know how I can continue to eat meat, knowing that these things are going on.

This is the reason I stopped eating meat years ago, and it gets easier by the day. Stories like this just cement my decision.

I'm under no illusion, it is very very difficult to live in society now (or perhaps ever) without contributing in some way to animal cruelty. The milk industry causes cows to be impregnated time after time and to have their young taken, with the males slaughtered at only weeks (days?) old. Should you go vegan, then there is the impact of growing soya to consider and the animals killed and misplaced in clearing areas for the growth of it.

If you enjoy eating meat, but want to make a difference then in my opinion the best you can do is buy local organic meat, try to incorporate game caught locally into your diet and be aware of where your food comes from. Please don't feel the need to give it up all together unless you want to.

If you do want to, or if you're not sure, the V&V forum is great for tips and advice on ensuring you get all of the dietary things you need and for recipes etc.

On Topic - I think it's absolutely ridiculous that evidence like that cannot be used. Can the employers legally let the people involved in this go?

That is exactly what you pay for when you go into a chain supermarket and go "oooooh look, pork chops for only €5". It's cheap for a reason. If you don't already, please consider buying locally sourced and butchered meat. It's better for the environment, better for the animals, better to support your own community and I'd imagine tastier?

Mr Moxie, I'm in Kildare, quite close to castlefarm actually I think (Is it off the road between Kilcullen and Athy?). Do they do pork and chicken? I'd be really interested to hear about their products - if you could PM me a bit of info.

vibe666

so, if someone beat another person into a coma or even killed them on private property, but the only evidence that they did it was illegally obtained footage, would that make it inadmissible in court?

i'm guessing probably not, so i don't see why this footage can't be used, but i suspect when it comes down to it, it'll be the "oh well, it's only animals" argument as usual.

loveisdivine

The sad thing is, most people just dont care enough.
One woman I knew said she would happily buy the cheap meat, even if it came from a bad farm, because she would rather do that than deprive her children of a sunday roast, or meat for their dinner.

I would happily give being vegetarian ago, I think I would enjoy it and lead a less guilty life. But its my other half that as of yet wont get on board.
He just likes his meat too much.

We already only buy free range chicken, and only meat from Bord Bia approved farms.

I have also over the last few weeks been researching where I can get organic beef/lamb and free range pork. So hopefully we can at least buy ethically until the OH comes round!

Discodog

kildare.17hmr wrote: »

Thats the point i was making, they should have brought the info they had to a judge to get a warrent to enter the premisis to film

OK so you see a horse in what appears to be a bad condition but you can't tell without going in the field. Are the Gardai going to be interested ?. If they need a warrant will they go to the trouble of getting one when there is no evidence - because you have to trespass to get the evidence ? !

I have posted in Legal Issues here to ask whether a Guard needs a warrant to enter a field rather than a building. There should be a simple law that allows anyone to enter private land if they have reasonable grounds to believe that an animal or person is at risk.

We have all heard of cases where the SPCA get a report, say of a dog yelping in distress, but the dog is in a back garden & the SPCA have no right to trespass.

The reason that I am questioning this is because all of us, as animal lovers, may be put in the situation of witnessing cruelty or neglect & it might be helpful if we had a definitive answer as to how to proceed - it could even be a useful sticky.

vibe666

thankfully my wife and i are doing well enough that we're able to pay more to ensure that the meat we eat is of good quality and less likely to come from cheaper sources where the animals are treated with cruelty, but you just never know unless you've visited the places where your meat is raised and slaughtered.

i'm thinking that the time is long overdue for an 'ethically supplied' food stamp where some government or independent body has visited the places where animals bred for their meat have been raised and slaughtered to ensure they are treated properly.

my problem is that i just love meat, more than any other type of food, i just couldn't live without it and quite frankly, if it came to it, i'd rather eat meat alone and give up everything else than give up eating meat, it's just too tasty. i'm a meatatarian.

but that doesn't mean i want to see animals treated badly, in fact quite the contrary, i'm very much an animal lover and strongly believe that we have an obligation to treat all our animals well and look after them in life and in death.

i know it seems like a contradiction to "treat your animals right before you kill them and eat them" and it feels like it even to me, but that's just the way i feel.

i'd happily take the bats from those feckers hands and turn them on them and see how they like it, but it won't make me a vegetarian, it'll just push me even further away from cheap meat.

Discodog

I think that it would be a shame if this becomes a pro/anti eating meat thread.

kildare.17hmr

vibe666 wrote: »

so, if someone beat another person into a coma or even killed them on private property, but the only evidence that they did it was illegally obtained footage, would that make it inadmissible in court?

i'm guessing probably not, so i don't see why this footage can't be used, but i suspect when it comes down to it, it'll be the "oh well, it's only animals" argument as usual.

It would be exactly the same actually believe it or not

loveisdivine wrote: »

The sad thing is, most people just dont care enough.
One woman I knew said she would happily buy the cheap meat, even if it came from a bad farm, because she would rather do that than deprive her children of a sunday roast, or meat for their dinner.

I would happily give being vegetarian ago, I think I would enjoy it and lead a less guilty life. But its my other half that as of yet wont get on board.
He just likes his meat too much.

We already only buy free range chicken, and only meat from Bord Bia approved farms.

I have also over the last few weeks been researching where I can get organic beef/lamb and free range pork. So hopefully we can at least buy ethically until the OH comes round!

I dont think its fair on your other half to be pressuring him to give up meat!:eek:

My 2 kids now both eat game that i bring home (, the other half didnt agree at first but i showed her a few videos of how meat is processed and how hunting is humain, she now says she wants to be a veggie but likes meat too much too

Mr Moxie

Whispered wrote: »

If you enjoy eating meat, but want to make a difference then in my opinion the best you can do is buy local organic meat, try to incorporate game caught locally into your diet and be aware of where your food comes from. Please don't feel the need to give it up all together unless you want to.

That is exactly what you pay for when you go into a chain supermarket and go "oooooh look, pork chops for only €5". It's cheap for a reason. If you don't already, please consider buying locally sourced and butchered meat. It's better for the environment, better for the animals, better to support your own community and I'd imagine tastier?

Mr Moxie, I'm in Kildare, quite close to castlefarm actually I think (Is it off the road between Kilcullen and Athy?). Do they do pork and chicken? I'd be really interested to hear about their products - if you could PM me a bit of info.

Hi, I'll PM you, but in case anyone else wants to follow up, they do a limited amount of Pork they only keep 2 or 3 pigs at a time and as far as I know it amounts to about 6 per year in total. I had their sausages on a BBQ last weekend, first in 18yrs, OMG I'd forgotten how good BBQ'd sausages were!!
I know it might seem strange to some, but a number of times I had hand fed the pigs petted them and enjoyed watching them play happily, there is some comfort in knowing that they had a great (albeit short) life.

They also do a limited number of beef boxes, where you can buy a box of different cuts, it is great value for organic meat.
Another important thing to note is that they do regular farm tours etc and I'm sure they would show you around if you phoned and made an appointment.

I'm sure there are quite few farms around the country who operate like this, the owners of Castlefarm may be able to advise on organic farms in your area as they are active in the whole organic movement nationally.

doctor evil

Discodog wrote: »

OK so you see a horse in what appears to be a bad condition but you can't tell without going in the field. Are the Gardai going to be interested ?. If they need a warrant will they go to the trouble of getting one when there is no evidence - because you have to trespass to get the evidence ? !

I have posted in Legal Issues here to ask whether a Guard needs a warrant to enter a field rather than a building. There should be a simple law that allows anyone to enter private land if they have reasonable grounds to believe that an animal or person is at risk.

We have all heard of cases where the SPCA get a report, say of a dog yelping in distress, but the dog is in a back garden & the SPCA have no right to trespass.

The reason that I am questioning this is because all of us, as animal lovers, may be put in the situation of witnessing cruelty or neglect & it might be helpful if we had a definitive answer as to how to proceed - it could even be a useful sticky.

Then folks will end up with every interfering tom dick and harry sticking their noses in with all the liability on the landowner.

How would you know that the 'legal trespasser' would even know what they are doing and not just make things worse by interfering with ignorance?

Plenty of abusers call themselves animal lovers.

I would not trust a single person to be knowledgeable enough from pet animals to large/farm animals to exotics to call themselves an inspector.

Hellrazer

Discodog wrote: »

So when should it be OK to break the law in order to expose cruelty ?

Personal opinion--Never.Two wrongs dont make a right.

annascott

I think that a major part of the whole animal abuse problem is that some Gardai do not care enough to enforce any laws, or go to talk with the perpetrators.

It is well documented that earlier this year, a man in Donegal saw a gang of children kick a puppy to death. The apathetic reaction he got from the Gardai when reporting it was unbelievable.

We need to lobby for new laws.

Hellrazer

annascott wrote: »

I think that a major part of the whole animal abuse problem is that some Gardai do not care enough to enforce any laws, or go to talk with the perpetrators.


We need to lobby for new laws.

You can have all the laws you want but if someone breaks a law to obtain evidence then in the eyes of the law they are as bad as the person who they are trying to gather evidence against.

Unfortunately and despite how much that case on Sky this morning upset people the cameras were hidden illegally after a trespass had occurred and therefore do not count as evidence.Which is correct in my opinion.

Mr Moxie

doctor evil wrote: »

Then folks will end up with every interfering tom dick and harry sticking their noses in with all the liability on the landowner.

How would you know that the 'legal trespasser' would even know what they are doing and not just make things worse by interfering with ignorance?

Plenty of abusers call themselves animal lovers.

I would not trust a single person to be knowledgeable enough from pet animals to large/farm animals to exotics to call themselves an inspector.

I agree that it would open up the potential for people to trespass with that as an excuse, and unfortunately it is not as simple as just allowing someone to walk onto someones land (landowner would be liable) because they want to check if an animal is ok...
However, doctor evil, in my opinion your statement that you "would not trust a single person... etc" is a very sweeping and negative statement to make.
It is especially unfair and untrue considering that the (way too few) ISPCA inspectors that we have in this country regularly put themselves in danger to rescue protect and in some of the happiest cases, re-home neglected and abused animals!
I personally know two inspectors that were physically assaulted and injured whilst rescuing a badly neglected dog recently. They are heros in my eyes.

We ALL have a duty to watch out for and report suspected neglect and abuse of animals to the authorities and leave the inspecting to them.

Unfortunately, along with the abusers the second most guilty party are the successive governments followed by us the citizens of this country (obviously I include myself) who have so far failed to put in place a realistic and effective system to protect our animals and not just a token gesture.
Don't get me wrong, there are countless organisations out there that do wonderful work, but the real opportunity lies with those in Government and we the people who give them their mandate, to put in place solid well structured legislation that creates a zero tolerance of this behaviour, just like we have zero tolerance for any neglect or abuse of children.

I know I'm far from on my own with these thoughts.

Declan

Mr Moxie

annascott wrote: »

I think that a major part of the whole animal abuse problem is that some Gardai do not care enough to enforce any laws, or go to talk with the perpetrators.

It is well documented that earlier this year, a man in Donegal saw a gang of children kick a puppy to death. The apathetic reaction he got from the Gardai when reporting it was unbelievable.

We need to lobby for new laws.

To be fair annascott, I think that a lot of the time the laws are not on the side of the gardai, if they can do something within the law, generally speaking they will...
As you rightly pointed out, we need new laws, tougher laws and strict enforcement of those laws when they are in place.