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Disputing a speeding fine

  • 25-07-2011 8:18pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 16 ✭✭✭ freddublin


    Hi guys,

    I got done for speeding. It was way over the limit, but 7am, june bank holiday. I hadn't heard anything until today coming home from work I thought they forgot about me, 1 month and 3 weeks before receiving the fine...

    And there is a mistake on the fine itself. It says the speed limit is 50, but there (on the quays beside Heuston going to town) it's 30.

    Is there any way I can dispute the fine for that ? Well I know I was still over the 50 :rolleyes:

    Just asking as I know in some places a single mistake on the fine cancels it...
    Also do they not have a delay to send the fine?

    Thank


«13

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 4,182 ✭✭✭ Kayroo


    Pay the fine.

    Stop speeding.


  • Registered Users Posts: 16 ✭✭✭ freddublin


    Kayroo wrote: »
    Pay the fine.
    Stop speeding.


    Dear Kayroo,

    I was asking there for some tips and not comments on my driving.

    I would pay it, if only I thought it was fair. But can you explain why they are in a place and at a time there will be just a few cars?
    If they are aware it's a dangerous place why don't they put ramps or a traffic light or check the speeds when there ARE cars going by...

    It's just a way to collect more money from us.

    By the way I'm on a motorbike and well concious of the risks I take, and there at that time they were none. Actually maybe one: being attacked by a seagull? :)

    F


  • Registered Users Posts: 302 ✭✭ F00t13f4n


    A cousin of mine did something similar - on the ticket it said the limit was 50 instead of 60. The judge told him he was still speeding and gave him 4 penalty points and a €200 fine.

    It used to be the case that if you were doing over twice the speed limit you lost your license if you got caught, so be careful if you take it further.

    There are loads of locations where the speed limit is unreasonably low. Unfortunately the cop who gave you the ticket and the judge who will hear the case won't care about that, and will go by the letter of the law.

    If it was me I'd pay the fine and take the points, but best of luck whatever you decide!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 645 chicken fingers


    Yeah you should go to court and contest it (and get what you deserve...)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 329 ✭✭ Magic Beans


    By your own admission you were doing in excess of 50 in a 30 zone. I would just pay the fine and not make things any worse for yourself than they have to be.


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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 13,381 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Paulw


    freddublin wrote: »
    I would pay it, if only I thought it was fair.

    Is the limit unfair, or is it unfair that you were caught?? By your own admission, you were speeding, hence it's fair.
    freddublin wrote: »
    But can you explain why they are in a place and at a time there will be just a few cars?

    Speed limits are not time enforced. The speed limit is the speed limit, 24/7/365.
    freddublin wrote: »
    It's just a way to collect more money from us.

    Yeah, sure they forced you to speed down the road. :rolleyes: Don't speed and you don't have to pay, hence they don't collect money.

    So, from all you've posted, I say go for it - contest it and take it to court. The judge will love you. :rolleyes:


  • Registered Users Posts: 16 ✭✭✭ freddublin


    ok sure... I'll pay, the fine, the loan of the IMF, the mistakes of the politicians...
    And for speeding I'll go to Wicklow, it's great fun there within the speed limits. Not too safe some times but I'll be following the law!

    Pffff some of you make me desperate!

    Mod
    No need for that. Some posters made reasonable, helpful comments. We should all try to be civil to each other here


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,182 ✭✭✭ Kayroo


    freddublin wrote: »
    ok sure... I'll pay, the fine, the loan of the IMF, the mistakes of the politicians...
    And for speeding I'll go to Wicklow, it's great fun there within the speed limits. Not too safe some times but I'll be following the law!

    Pffff some of you make me desperate!

    You accept that you committed the crime but you don't want to accede to the punishment because of some minor (and wholly irrelevant) technicality?

    Also have to laugh at your pathetic attempt to equate you breaking the law in a dangerous manner with the IMF deal. Grow up and be a man. When you break the law, pay the fine.


  • Registered Users Posts: 37,527 ✭✭✭✭ the_syco


    freddublin wrote: »
    And there is a mistake on the fine itself. It says the speed limit is 50, but there (on the quays beside Heuston going to town) it's 30.
    Pretty sure the 30 zone has only applies from Capel St in, for the past while?


  • Registered Users Posts: 16 ✭✭✭ freddublin


    the_syco wrote: »
    Pretty sure the 30 zone has only applies from Capel St in, for the past while?

    It seems that it has changed on the 1st of July as for many 30 zones. I was looking for signs this morning but couldn't find any...


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  • Registered Users Posts: 16 ✭✭✭ freddublin


    Kayroo wrote: »
    You accept that you committed the crime but you don't want to accede to the punishment because of some minor (and wholly irrelevant) technicality?

    Also have to laugh at your pathetic attempt to equate you breaking the law in a dangerous manner with the IMF deal. Grow up and be a man. When you break the law, pay the fine.


    I love punishment but not from the gards :D

    I was attempting to say that sometimes you need to challenge rules or what you're told. (Don't worry I'l pay the fine).

    About the IMF deal, we just take it and pay for it. Saw more poeple in the street against abortion than about the payslips being lowered down because of some incompetent d...a... that brought the country to the way it is today!


  • Registered Users Posts: 114 ✭✭ board_stiff


    freddublin wrote: »
    It seems that it has changed on the 1st of July as for many 30 zones. I was looking for signs this morning but couldn't find any...
    The 30km speed zone along the Quays going to town starts at Bridge st. and has done since it's introduction - http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0210/speedlimitdublin.pdf

    Whether right or wrong you are looking for a loophole to get out of paying the fine. However the stretch of road around Heuston is a 50km zone and so it was correctly stated on your fine. Therefore there is nothing to dispute.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 13,381 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Paulw


    freddublin wrote: »
    I was attempting to say that sometimes you need to challenge rules or what you're told. (Don't worry I'l pay the fine).

    Then don't pay the fine, and challenge it in court. It's your choice.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,012 ✭✭✭ Plazaman


    It's very dodge going to court as usually the fine is increased and points doubled if you lose.

    Regardless of no cars on the road that early in the morn, it would be pedestrians that would be the prob (little old ladies going to early morning mass, drunken types going home from the night before) and around Heuston, there's plenty of blind spots they can step from. Try stopping quickly if one of these appear in front of you and your doing 50 +, mightn't be you're fault they step out in front of you but you'll get blamed (and they make much more of a mess than a seagull).


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,476 ✭✭✭✭ coylemj


    'But your honour, I wasn't doing 20 over the limit, I was doing 40 over the limit' - guess what happens next?

    Reminds me of a case down the country years ago where a bunch of people who were caught in a pub after hours were summonsed to appear in court. Usually in such a case none of the 'found ons' turned up as the standard fine was ten shillings or a pound so it wasn't worth hiring a solicitor or turning up to argue your case.

    On this particular day a guy did turn up so when the clerk read out the names of the ten or so customers who had their names taken, didn't our man step forward and inform the judge that he was pleading leniency because he was only drinking a Club Orange only to be told by the judge that since he wasn't having a jar he had no excuse to be there after hours so he fined him two pounds!


  • Registered Users Posts: 78,142 ✭✭✭✭ Victor


    The 30km speed zone along the Quays going to town starts at Bridge st. and has done since it's introduction - http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0210/speedlimitdublin.pdf
    That was changed in March 2011 to Capel Street (eastbound) and Wood Quay (westbound).

    http://www.dublincity.ie/RoadsandTraffic/generaltrafficmeasures/Documents/TD%203369_06%2030%20km%20hr%20City%20Centre%20approved%20%20Mar%202011%20.pdf


  • Registered Users Posts: 68 ✭✭ wailim_2002


    Hi Lads,

    What do you think of a €80 fine and 2 points for 109Km/Hr in a 100Km/Hr zone on the Arklow bypass? The location of the VAN was 200m from where the dual carriageway converges to a 2 lane road with bi-directional traffic.

    I have asked a number of friends and no-one has ever got caught below what most people see as the 10% rule.

    This was a gatzo van and the snap was at 10.30pm when the road was deserted.

    I would be a whole lot more comfortable paying this if it had been 111Km/Hr because then I'd accept the tolerance of my speedo and the camera itself did not conspire to have me caught unfairly.

    I did a bit of research and can find no Irish guidelines regarding enforcement tolerances.

    In the UK according to ACPO (Association of Chief Police Officers) site:

    the rule is 10% + 2mph or 3mph depending on the speed limit and this is because the regulations for speedometers for older cars did not require them to be more than 10% accurate.

    As a result in the UK on that site, the closest UK speed limit of 60MPH they suggest Fixed Penalty at 68MPH. (10% + 2MPH)

    If you apply that formula to 100KM zone it would be 110 + 3 = 113Km/Hr!!!!

    I will probably pay this and try to forget about it but I have lost a lot of respect for the Gardai over this!


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 13,381 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Paulw


    I have asked a number of friends and no-one has ever got caught below what most people see as the 10% rule.

    There is no 10% rule. It's a myth.

    The gatso van is automatic. It's not someone pressing the button to take a pict when you are speeding, but an automatic speed detection system and camera. If you're speeding, it takes a photo. If you're not, it doesn't.

    So, while you might feel hard done by, the system said you were speeding.

    Also, have the points for speeding not been increased from 2 to 3 points recently?


  • Registered Users Posts: 68 ✭✭ wailim_2002


    I understand what you are saying and I'm sure it could have got me at 1Km over 100KPH.

    You say its a myth do you mean Ireland or UK or both? If you click the link for the UK association of chief police officers it is certainly no Myth in the UK! And the two countries tend to mirror each other very closely for obvious reasons.

    Also for example why don't people get done for 103 in a 100 zone.... THEY DONT! I did phone the helpline and the garda suggested they have seen a few at 109KPH in recent times and conceded not seeing them below this. This suggests there is some formula or common sense in existence regardless of how it gets applied.

    She did also suggest to send it in to them with a note requesting them to look at it again and they would.

    I can see your comparison between a Garda pulling the trigger and a computer but the reality is the Garda might set a higher threshold depending on many factors including conditions and general speed on the day but mostly I suspect according to how comfortable they feel tapping on your window.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 13,381 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Paulw


    Gardai have the power of discretion. They can decide to stop you or not. They can also decide to prosecute or not. They can make a decision about the incident, based on any number of factors.

    The gatso van is just an automatic camera. It's black or white to the system in the van. You're either speeding or you're not.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 68 ✭✭ wailim_2002


    Paulw wrote: »
    Gardai have the power of discretion. They can decide to stop you or not. They can also decide to prosecute or not. They can make a decision about the incident, based on any number of factors.

    The gatso van is just an automatic camera. It's black or white to the system in the van. You're either speeding or you're not.

    So you don't think someone set the machine up with the actual zone speed and threshold either there on the day or its preset by GPS location?

    In other words you think if you drove your car down there at 101KPH it would do you and you'd be okay with that?

    Geez!


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 13,381 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Paulw


    So you don't think someone set the machine up with the actual zone speed and threshold either there on the day or its preset by GPS location?

    In other words you think if you drove your car down there at 101KPH it would do you and you'd be okay with that?

    I don't actually know if it's set manually in the camera, or set by GPS. But, if you're going less than the speed limit, the system won't trigger. If the speed limit is 100kph, then it should trigger for all vehicles passing doing greater than that limit.

    I'm not at all saying I'd be ok with it, I'm just saying that that's how it is. I don't agree with some limits on some roads, but that's just the way it is.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,182 ✭✭✭ Kayroo


    So you don't think someone set the machine up with the actual zone speed and threshold either there on the day or its preset by GPS location?

    In other words you think if you drove your car down there at 101KPH it would do you and you'd be okay with that?

    Geez!

    Look, I know it's a matter of degrees and I know that some of the speed limits are ridiculous but by their very nature speed limits are arbitrary. The law designates that 100kmph is a perfectly acceptable legal speed to travel. Consequently 101kmph is as much a violation of that law as 150kmph. The difference in moral culpability is taken into account at the sentencing stage, not at the charging stage as both are, de facto, illegal acts.

    I am not disagreeing that it is frustrating but that's the limit we have set. If you exceed it you are breaking the law and that is, as they say, that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 78,142 ✭✭✭✭ Victor


    What do you think of a €80 fine and 2 points for 109Km/Hr in a 100Km/Hr zone on the Arklow bypass? The location of the VAN was 200m from where the dual carriageway converges to a 2 lane road with bi-directional traffic.
    Fair cop.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,333 Zambia


    101/100 is not the same as 150/100 under Irish law surely?

    Its not the same offence like?


  • Registered Users Posts: 78,142 ✭✭✭✭ Victor


    Zambia wrote: »
    101/100 is not the same as 150/100 under Irish law surely?

    Its not the same offence like?
    Severe cases would likely get a careless / dangerous driving charge.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,077 ✭✭✭ Tails142


    Hi Lads,

    What do you think of a €80 fine and 2 points for 109Km/Hr in a 100Km/Hr zone on the Arklow bypass? The location of the VAN was 200m from where the dual carriageway converges to a 2 lane road with bi-directional traffic.

    I have asked a number of friends and no-one has ever got caught below what most people see as the 10% rule.

    This was a gatzo van and the snap was at 10.30pm when the road was deserted.
    I
    I would be a whole lot more comfortable paying this if it had been 111Km/Hr because then I'd accept the tolerance of my speedo and the camera itself did not conspire to have me caught unfairly.

    I did a bit of research and can find no Irish guidelines regarding enforcement tolerances.

    In the UK according to ACPO (Association of Chief Police Officers) site:

    the rule is 10% + 2mph or 3mph depending on the speed limit and this is because the regulations for speedometers for older cars did not require them to be more than 10% accurate.

    As a result in the UK on that site, the closest UK speed limit of 60MPH they suggest Fixed Penalty at 68MPH. (10% + 2MPH)

    If you apply that formula to 100KM zone it would be 110 + 3 = 113Km/Hr!!!!

    I will probably pay this and try to forget about it but I have lost a lot of respect for the Gardai over this!

    Your speedometer in general over reads by about ten percent, you will see this if you have a gps.

    If your speedometer says your doing 100 km/hr your actually only doing about 91 which is what a speed gun would read.

    so the speed gun/van said you were doing 109 which means the speedometer on your car was showing about 120 km/hr.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,182 ✭✭✭ Kayroo


    Zambia wrote: »
    101/100 is not the same as 150/100 under Irish law surely?

    Its not the same offence like?

    If you were going at an outrageous speed you might get an additional charge of dangerous/careless driving but driving in excess of the speed limit is the same crime regardless of the degree of excess.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,780 ✭✭✭ amen


    Why not use the freedom of information act and ask for a list of all cars registered for speeding at that location on that date, the number of summons sent etc you may see a pattern


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  • Registered Users Posts: 78,142 ✭✭✭✭ Victor


    amen wrote: »
    Why not use the freedom of information act
    Doesn't apply to the Garda.


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