Very fearful dog collapsing

Whispered

The shaking starts when he see the lead because he thinks he's going in the car, or worries he'll have to walk past a moving/running car. He's perfectly happy on the lead (for example) in the training centre, or when we're walking in the woods and other people are around. It is the car association.

If just walking locally, he'll shake and shiver and drool until we get past the car and he knows he's just going for a walk and a game of fetch. Although even then he seems to worry if we deviate from our usual path or if a car passes when he's not expecting it.

So would you suggest the t-shirt goes on after he gets into the car or should I get him used to it in the house first? I'd be afraid introducing something new in the car might cause fear around that too - that's all I need a dog afraid of t-shirts :pac:

The Sweeper

The shirt has to be tight. It's the sensation of being swaddled that soothes the dog.

Shirt first, then stress - if the shirt alleviates the stress, it makes sense to get it on first.

ohmfg

I think maybe getting him used to it in the absence of anything to do with cars or walks or leads.
Just put it on him in the house, let him wear it for a little while to get used to it and then take it off. Do this a lot so that he is totally used to it and knows what it is before you put it on him in the car for the first time.

Zapperzy

If your willing to try those bachs like solutions have a look into zylkene tablets also.

http://www.vetuk.co.uk/index.php?main_page=advanced_search_result&search_in_description=1&zenid=1c74hocrtec1ppavqd8523vv06&keyword=zylkene
I get zylkene for my cat from here. From what I remember Harley is a fairly big dog isin't he? So it would be very expensive to buy the 100 tablets for them not to work. If it's something your willing to try you could ask around a few vets to see would they be willing to just sell you a few weeks supply.

You could try the DAP collar or spray either? http://www.vetuk.co.uk/index.php?main_page=advanced_search_result&search_in_description=1&keyword=DAP

Whispered

I just got my thundershirt, delivered and fitted by Kevin from holistic pet products. I haven't tried the car yet, but in the house Harley went from a big sloppy fool diving around to a chilled out and relaxed boy within a minute of it going on. I have high hopes for it to be honest. We have a busy weekend ahead of us with a camping trip planned so if it works it will make it so much more enjoyable.

On another note, the service from holistic pet products was absolutely fantastic. Really the best service I can remember getting anywhere.

ISDW

Whispered wrote: »

I just got my thundershirt, delivered and fitted by Kevin from holistic pet products. I haven't tried the car yet, but in the house Harley went from a big sloppy fool diving around to a chilled out and relaxed boy within a minute of it going on. I have high hopes for it to be honest. We have a busy weekend ahead of us with a camping trip planned so if it works it will make it so much more enjoyable.

On another note, the service from holistic pet products was absolutely fantastic. Really the best service I can remember getting anywhere.

Brilliant, fingers and paws crossed that it works with the car as well.

I think it was probably Kevin that was the Dog Expo in Galway, my dog Rooney fell in love with him because he kept giving him a garlic sausage treat, little bits throughout the day, Rooney thought he was the most fantastic person he'd ever met:rolleyes::D

piperh

Really hope it works

Graces7

Sometimes nothing works. We have had this with collie and thunder and have accepted now that this is just her; interesting thing a while ago was that someone was using a crowbanger within hearing and we were in the field when it started one day.Interesting thing was that instead of racing to me to hide in, she raced back to the house.

The only thing that works with her when there is thunder is a 2 mg valium. Which we use very, very rarely. It takes the edge off and leaves her her dignity. She is getting old now and deserves her peace.

It works in ten minutes.

NB at one stage we simply left the lead on her all day, when she was getting terrified of going out.

And is it not so that any progress is erratic?

Collie had a similar "crash" a few months back; I thought she was going into a seizure. Sat by her on the earth and held her until it passed. red eyes then. It has never happened as badly as that; dreadful shock. She has had one or three puddles indoors too.

Graces7

We were talking about this last evening.

Sometimes a situation like this cannot be fixed and repeated attempts sensitise the dog even more; this seems to be so here. And we just have to accept the dog and adjust to what is really a disability.. Is it totally essential to take the dog in the car?

Our wee dog as a puppy used to vomit in the car so we stopped taking her in it. When, many months later we moved house we were dreading it; but not a problem any more. Sometimes a total rest and break will work.

The stress your dog is suffering will only increase; an example. I am allergic to nettles. Each time I get stung the damage is worse. Caught on one today and even through a sleeve my whole arm is inflamed and numb.

Poor dog now; can you come to terms with the dog as it is? As we did with the collie? Who is now happier than she has ever been, by the way. Still a handful at times, but compared with even a year ago...

Whispered

We haven't tried the car today as I've been away all morning and K doesn't know how to fit it. But we will be travelling tomorrow.

ISDW - yep that was him, he had my boys loving him too. That pate thing really seems to work wonders.

Graces7 wrote: »

The only thing that works with her when there is thunder is a 2 mg valium. Which we use very, very rarely. It takes the edge off and leaves her her dignity. She is getting old now and deserves her peace.

We tried a canine xanax and it effected him terribly. I prefer to take a natural approach where possible anyway, so the thundershirt will be ideal if it works.

The idea is similar to that of swaddling, so if it's something you'd like to try with the collie a bandage wrapped snugly around the torso might have a similar effect.

Graces7 wrote: »

The stress your dog is suffering will only increase; an example. I am allergic to nettles. Each time I get stung the damage is worse. Caught on one today and even through a sleeve my whole arm is inflamed and numb.

But this is not an allergy, it is a psychological thing, not a physical one. We had made great headway, which for some reason has been forgotten by him. I really hope we can do it again. Hopefully taking a different approach will work.

Graces7 wrote: »

Poor dog now; can you come to terms with the dog as it is? As we did with the collie? Who is now happier than she has ever been, by the way. Still a handful at times, but compared with even a year ago...

haha there is nothing poor about him, he's well exercised, walked daily and gets loads of off lead time daily. He swims at least twice a week and we do a long mountain trek at least once a week. We're going camping tomorrow and he will be in the bed with us keeping us warm (even though last time he put his head through the tent trying to get out to my husband :rolleyes:) It is essential he be in the car so that we can do these things with him. He is high energy, loves to have a good run, has amazing stamina and absolutely needs to have those things for a happy and healthy life. We need to travel to get to these places which are so important to him. That is why we need to work on this problem.

We love the dog as he is, we've shaped him as he is, I just have to figure out how we've shaped him to fear the car. Because he needs to be in the car, I can't just ignore his fear. It needs to be worked on. If we can get him to the stage where he experiences a bit of stress, that's fine. But as it is now, it can't continue.

If the thundershirt will not work, we will get money together for a behaviourist. That will be the last straw as we're very broke at the moment. If that fails, well I honestly don't know what we will try.

jandm

My collie x used to get sick in the car even on the shortest journeys. Used DAP (Dog Appeasing Pheremone) spray in the car and on her travel bedding and 90% of journeys she's ok.

Graces7

Whispered wrote: »

We haven't tried the car today as I've been away all morning and K doesn't know how to fit it. But we will be travelling tomorrow.

ISDW - yep that was him, he had my boys loving him too. That pate thing really seems to work wonders.

We tried a canine xanax and it effected him terribly. I prefer to take a natural approach where possible anyway, so the thundershirt will be ideal if it works.

The idea is similar to that of swaddling, so if it's something you'd like to try with the collie a bandage wrapped snugly around the torso might have a similar effect.


But this is not an allergy, it is a psychological thing, not a physical one. We had made great headway, which for some reason has been forgotten by him. I really hope we can do it again. Hopefully taking a different approach will work.



haha there is nothing poor about him, he's well exercised, walked daily and gets loads of off lead time daily. He swims at least twice a week and we do a long mountain trek at least once a week. We're going camping tomorrow and he will be in the bed with us keeping us warm (even though last time he put his head through the tent trying to get out to my husband :rolleyes:) It is essential he be in the car so that we can do these things with him. He is high energy, loves to have a good run, has amazing stamina and absolutely needs to have those things for a happy and healthy life. We need to travel to get to these places which are so important to him. That is why we need to work on this problem.

We love the dog as he is, we've shaped him as he is, I just have to figure out how we've shaped him to fear the car. Because he needs to be in the car, I can't just ignore his fear. It needs to be worked on. If we can get him to the stage where he experiences a bit of stress, that's fine. But as it is now, it can't continue.

If the thundershirt will not work, we will get money together for a behaviourist. That will be the last straw as we're very broke at the moment. If that fails, well I honestly don't know what we will try.

Your choice, but not one we would make simply. Poor dog still!

Whispered

It is a choice made in conjunction with my husband, my vet, two trainers, the kennel manager (who knows him since a pup) and based on knowing what my individual dog needs. He needs to be stimulated, he needs his swims, he needs to run free in new places and explore things he has not before. He would not be happy confined to the same walk day in day out, or worse still not getting walked and only having the same field to roam around for exercise with none of his mental needs met......
There is no need to pity my dog Graces7, as I'm sure his needs are very well met.

I see some definite improvement with the TS which I'm very very excited about. When we collapse the crate, Harleys usual reaction is to hide, or shake on the couch. We decided to put the crates in the car tonight so he has less to fear in the morning. It will be a quick transition from home to car and not something he will have too long to think about. So the TS went on, he had his dinner and lay on the floor munching on a marrow bone. We collapsed the crate, he came out to investigate and went back into the sitting room. The crates were brought out to the car, car doors opening and closing, crates rattling etc. All of this was ignored and he just sat on the couch playing with a squeaky toy.

OK so it may not seem like a big deal, but is a huge improvement to the normal shaking, drooling and hiding which occurs when the crates are brought to the car. Lets hope it extends to being in the car too.

lrushe

Graces7 wrote: »

Is it totally essential to take the dog in the car?

I would think so especially in the case of an emergancy, should the dog become injured or ill it would be hard to transport the dog to the vet without going in the car.
If the dog is already fearful of the car and gets sick the fear could make an illness alot worse, I think Whispered is doing the right thing trying to get to the bottom of the dogs fear.

mymo

That sounds great so far, hope the car trip goes well, often it only takes a few good experiences to undo the fear.

Fingers crossed.

The Sweeper

We've had a massive breakthrough with Gus and agility. He was terrible - not food driven at all, and impossible to get his attention. I tried a few things and then discovered he has a strong work drive for toys - play with a specific jangly ball he loves. Well things have clicked into place - Gus gets massive enjoyment out of working for his ball, so now we no longer just go for walks.

Every walk is agility class - up onto park benches, lots of jumping for the ball during the walk. This has reinforced the basic principles of 'I do what I'm asked and good things happen'.

He still doesn't love the car, but in the weeks since you started this thread, I got my 'Hmm I must fix this' mojo back and at the moment, Gus is jumping in and out of the boot of my station wagon without having to be lifted.

And today at agility, he did the tunnel.

Keep working on it - it's fantastic to see a dog gain confidence doing something they used to be afraid of, especially if you use positive, rewarding and assertive methods that aren't aggressive or confronting.

Graces7

Whispered wrote: »

It is a choice made in conjunction with my husband, my vet, two trainers, the kennel manager (who knows him since a pup) and based on knowing what my individual dog needs. He needs to be stimulated, he needs his swims, he needs to run free in new places and explore things he has not before. He would not be happy confined to the same walk day in day out, or worse still not getting walked and only having the same field to roam around for exercise with none of his mental needs met......
There is no need to pity my dog Graces7, as I'm sure his needs are very well met.

I see some definite improvement with the TS which I'm very very excited about. When we collapse the crate, Harleys usual reaction is to hide, or shake on the couch. We decided to put the crates in the car tonight so he has less to fear in the morning. It will be a quick transition from home to car and not something he will have too long to think about. So the TS went on, he had his dinner and lay on the floor munching on a marrow bone. We collapsed the crate, he came out to investigate and went back into the sitting room. The crates were brought out to the car, car doors opening and closing, crates rattling etc. All of this was ignored and he just sat on the couch playing with a squeaky toy.

OK so it may not seem like a big deal, but is a huge improvement to the normal shaking, drooling and hiding which occurs when the crates are brought to the car. Lets hope it extends to being in the car too.

As I said, your choice, but speaking from 40 years of training etc, and given your header?

There is a level of stress beyond which we would not think of pushing a dog and the reaction of yours is dangerously near to that.

The cumulative and increasing of stress reaction is identical in mental and physical situations. Fear leading to fear of fear.

And valium is very different from xanax which we would agree with you on.

We made the decision re the collie wisely based on the abuse she suffered for five years and it is the right one for her. She needs some peace and dignity and she is never off the land. Doubtless we could have pushed and pushed her, but there was and is no reason. We have vet help here on the almost never need we have as we do not vaccinate. The only time there has been need to get her in the car has been when we have been moving and then it is valium and kind help lifting her in. No need for more.

NB valium maybe once every month now if that.
The rest she has from extreme stress works for all dogs. And people too. Behaviourism is not advised simply as it is often applied.

And removing stress has done a huge amount for her peace and happiness as she ages now. We do not expect our dogs to defer to our way of life in the way that you do. And that is probably the difference here of course.

My opinion is mine and remains the same, and saying more would simply polarise you even more... sympathy remains with your dog though:)

Over and out on this for me.

Cherry Blossom

Graces7 wrote: »

As I said, your choice, but speaking from 40 years of training etc, and given your header?

There is a level of stress beyond which we would not think of pushing a dog and the reaction of yours is dangerously near to that.

. . .

My opinion is mine and remains the same, and saying more would simply polarise you even more... sympathy remains with your dog though:)

Over and out on this for me.

In my experience, 40 years of experience sometimes speaks nothing but utter tripe.

Graces7, I'd like you to explain the qualifications in canine psychology you hold which makes you such an authority over a vet, two trainers, a kennel owner and two dog owners that know their dog inside out. You seem so determined to push your opinion over all of these yet all you give by way of authority or example is your own dog. I'm sure you realise that the circumstances surrounding one dog that you know pretty well has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on another dog - that you know absolutely nothing of. To be perfectly honest given all of this I would see anyone that would take the advice - 'just stop putting the dog in the car' would be nothing short of idiotic to be frank. I'm quite unsure how it also took 3 lengthy posts and quoting half the thread just to make this suggestion, you're internet access has obviously improved drasticly now if you are able to do this.

<ETA - Over and out from me>

The Sweeper

Graces7 wrote: »

We made the decision re the collie wisely based on the abuse she suffered for five years and it is the right one for her. She needs some peace and dignity and she is never off the land. Doubtless we could have pushed and pushed her, but there was and is no reason. We have vet help here on the almost never need we have as we do not vaccinate. The only time there has been need to get her in the car has been when we have been moving and then it is valium and kind help lifting her in. No need for more.

On 16th May last year you posted a thread called 'Quality of Life' because you were considering euthanising your collie because her stress response to a crow banger going off constantly in the local area was so dramatic.

Someone suggested the thundershirt to you, but for some reason you wouldn't accept any solution other than drugs.

Additionally, you declared you had no money for a vet callout, yet when someone suggested you take the dog to the vet, you stated that you couldn't get her in the car - "we cannot get this dog in a car, and she would be unpredictable in that situation".

So at one point you were considering euthanising your dog for want of an alternative, and that want of an alternative was partly caused by your own inability to get your dog in a car.

Given that context, I'm not convinced you're really in any position to comment on this thread so authoritatively.

Whispered

Graces7 wrote: »

As I said, your choice, but speaking from 40 years of training etc, and given your header?

.

Oh dear. You really should read back over your previous posts - it was only earlier this year you said

Actually, until my first dog, only a few years ago, I did not know that only male dogs cock their legs

I wouldn't be taking your advice anyway to be honest as we have very very different ideas of what it means to be a decent owner.

---

The TS WORKED :eek::eek::eek::eek: It wasn't a complete turn around but it allowed us to get him to where we were going with no shaking and no drooling. He even sat in the back looking out the window which until now was unheard of. We also worked on the car without the shirt, the beach was a ten min walk from where we stayed, but we drove each time. You could drive oto the beach which allowed us to open the door and let him jump straight out. And he seemed to not mind. I even have 2 paw prints on the outside door where he was trying to persuade us to go again.

We had a fab 2 nights away with them and now I intend to go make everyone jealous in the chillout thread by boasting about the cuteness of the boys and the gorgeous-ness of where we were.

ISDW

Whispered wrote: »

Oh dear. You really should read back over your previous posts - it was only earlier this year you said



I wouldn't be taking your advice anyway to be honest as we have very very different ideas of what it means to be a decent owner.

---

The TS WORKED :eek::eek::eek::eek: It wasn't a complete turn around but it allowed us to get him to where we were going with no shaking and no drooling. He even sat in the back looking out the window which until now was unheard of. We also worked on the car without the shirt, the beach was a ten min walk from where we stayed, but we drove each time. You could drive oto the beach which allowed us to open the door and let him jump straight out. And he seemed to not mind. I even have 2 paw prints on the outside door where he was trying to persuade us to go again.

We had a fab 2 nights away with them and now I intend to go make everyone jealous in the chillout thread by boasting about the cuteness of the boys and the gorgeous-ness of where we were.

That is fantastic, I'm delighted for you all, that you can go away like that and have such a great time.

Well done for not giving up on him, he's a very lucky boy to have you and your OH.

koneko

Wonderful update, Whispered
Fair play

ppink

Thats brilliant news . Keep us posted on how he gets on with his new shirt............have you put up a pic of him in it yet?


(I might get one for me:D)

Whispered

I will get a pic of him in it tomorrow. It's actually very nice on.

It's snug fitting so that would put me off getting one for myself.

Zapperzy

That's great news to hear!

Ya I'm more of a big baggy 2 sizes too big t-shirt and hoodie person myself too, and I think if I wound down anymore I would probably end up at a standstill or going backwards.