Very fearful dog collapsing

Whispered

I've asked before here on the forum about my dogs fear of the car. We had been working on it and I thought it was improving but yesterday we had a major set back.

I was getting my boys ready for their walk and I took the lead out of the dog box, Harley saw it, started shaking and arching his back (as an abused or hit dog would) his legs then seemed to go from under him. I was right there with him, and immediately stood him up, clipped the lead on as if nothing had happened and continued doing what I was doing. Instead of bringing him for a walk I just brought him out to the hallway, took a ball out of the box, unclipped the lead and gave him the ball. I'm not sure if that was the right thing to do, but I didn't want to make a big deal out of his fear.

In the run up to this incident, he's had regular walks with no issues, the last time he was in the car we went for a lovely walk with another dog. Again no incidents on the walk. Everything was fine. I don't know where this very extreme fear has come from again.

The only thing I can think of is the fact that my husband has been working mad hours for the past week, so the dog may be missing time with him, also he would not be getting as much exercise - he's getting his walks every day, but not his 20 mins mad run around time (his recall for me is not good enough for me to have him off lead). So anxiety about his missing owner and pent up energy could explain this little episode.

When he had calmed down I brought them both up to the kennels for some mad running around and some boyish rough and tumble. He was absolutely fine once we got there and once I get him home this evening I'm sure Keith will have some insight for me.

I'm not mad about the idea of bringing him to the vet as I know it was caused through fear. I'm hoping a good energy drain will have helped, but if not I will call my vet for advice.

I've tried all of the tricks and methods to get him used to the car, but nothing has worked. I'm thinking next stop has to be a behaviourist, but money is a huge issue at the moment so it will be a while before I can do that. In the meantime, I'd like some opinions here.

Thanks

ISDW

I think you did exactly the right thing, just ignoring it, and making the lead experience short but fun, and then letting him have a good run around.

I don't know what else you can do really, theres obviously something going on in his head but its finding that thing that triggers it, it could be something so incongruous that you just can't see it, did you have the same shoes on that you wore for the last car journey? Same perfume, anti-perspirant? Something that we as humans wouldn't think about, but that Harley will notice.

lrushe

Gosh that is an extreme reaction alright. How is you other dog with the car? Does it make any difference if Harley has another confident dog to follow into the car?

piperh

I agree i think you did the right thing by not making an issue out of it.

Did you put him in the car once he'd calmed down? It sounds like he associates the lead with the car as he reacted so strongly just to the lead before you'd even got to the car. Perhaps try using an old lead or buying a cheap one to take him to the car and see if he still associates the 2. If so perhaps just continue doing what you did by making the lead time fun he will see it in a more positive light and forget the association.

Whispered

Oh god I didn't even think of something as simple as shoes etc. I have to admit the only time I wear shoes in the house is when I'm about to go out so it could well be it. The problem is though we had been making progress then a massive drop backwards.

Having Phoe with him makes little difference, Phoe will happily jump in a sit looking out the window but Harley still just drops his head, ploughs in and shakes on the floor. This was a totally different level though.

I've tried to do the lead on, treat, lead off thing, but he just freezes when he's clipped on, I think I might have to get just a clip with nothing and start clipping that on, then adding lengthening bits of string. But in the meantime while we're working on this, how to exercise him

Argh my head is wrecked. I got such a fright seeing him collapse like that. It was only a split second but it's heartbreaking to see your pet in that much fear of you.

The Sweeper

Whispered - I know exactly where you're coming from.

Gus is car phobic. In his case, he was kept in the boot of a car in his own urine and faeces for an unspecified length of time, and it was from that environment that he was delivered into rescue.

I have to risk injury lifting my 25-30kg mutt into the car every time we have to go somewhere. No amount of treats, encouragement or cuddles make a difference. I take Gus out with his leash on. He tries to go the opposite direction to the driveway. His steps slow as we approach the car. If I open the boot at that point, he lies down.

It's worth pointing out I drive an estate with roomy boot and a dog guard so he has plenty of space in the back when we take a trip. I get in the boot with him sometimes.

He does go through phases - at one point we were taking a car ride a day and he WAS improving, but wouldn't jump into the car of his own accord and it was starting to literally hurt me trying to hoof him into the car.

Driving the car into the yard and leaving it out there for a day with all the doors and windows open and allowing him access to it helps him readjust. I go out there and tempt him to jump in and right back out again. You can't push it too much though because he just doesn't want to do more than a certain amount of work because it's too much stress.

I think you did the right thing with Harley with the ball and his leash in that particular situation.

If he's like Gus, another dog won't help. Gus has a boxer bitch he adores and I've tried getting her owner put her into the boot of my car and nope, he just stands there handing his head and refusing to budge and it makes no difference that she's in there.

lorebringer

This really sounds like a fear reaction, but just wanted to let you know that there is a syndrome called "Episodic Falling". It happens to dogs that are fearful, over excited or in any extreme emotional response to something. It's generally seen as a stiffening of limbs and/or body and then collapse. The dogs muscles tense up and cannot relax, it can last for a short period or much longer. Have a look online to see if it is similar to what is happening to your guy. Some breeds are more inclined to this problem than others (namely Cavaliers).

(this is probably not the problem you are having with your dog at all but it's always good to be aware of it!).

ohmfg

Whispered, you may well have tried something like this - or may well not buy into it;) but we have had some great results with various problems using them.

The fear one has worked really well on various fosters we have had.

They ship very quickly and are easy to deal with.

ppink

Have you done the whole putting him in giving him treats and getting out again without shutting the door and not going anywhere?

Or maybe use the car as an extension of playtime......outside throw the ball around it with door open then throw the ball in there and let him hop in and out at his own leisure?

Sit in the back with him playing grooming petting him but dont go anywhere, then get him eating his food in there?
If I were you I would not bring him anywhere in the car for ages until he is completely relaxed about it.

Alternatively I could loan you my mob for a nice long weekend and they will teach him how much fun the car is:D;).

Zapperzy

How is he usually with putting the lead on for walks when he's not getting into the car? Could it be anything to do with his collar? Like it pinching him or a sore spot that it rubs against when he pulls on the lead causing him to associate the lead with pain? Just a bit weird to suddenly go completely backwards and for this to cause such a reaction.

Whispered

Thanks all, I just looked up Episodic Falling and it seems to be nearly the opposite, rather than his muscles not relaxing, it's as if he went floppy.

I had tried dog xanax and had a terrible experience with it, I was using kalm Aid and thought we were getting somewhere, but had phased that out ages ago. We really seem to have been coming along well with it. He didn't enjoy the car but the shaking wasn't as bad and he didn't drool anymore. Maybe that's the best way to go ohmfg.

We've tried to play games around the car, and with my younger sister he will jump in an out, but if my husband or i go near the car he legs it. He'll sit outside the car crying in at his ball instead of getting it. Or pointedly ignore the ball and sit there shaking at the stress of it all.

He wont eat in there. Under advice we stopped feeding him in the house, so we'd feed him at the front door, then move the bowl closer to the car with each meal. When we got to the bowl in the car stage, he'd strain in, grab a mouthful, deposit it on the ground and eat it. Once we moved it so he'd have to get in to grab food, he didn't eat for 3 days and I had to stop.

Zapperzy, he actually has a patch of dry skin on his neck, since it developed he hasn't been walked on a collar, but a harness, the lead on the collar was just for a walk to the car. I wonder if that could have caused it. To be honest I really think it's a mental thing rather than a physical one, this is a dog who makes a habit of running head first into my husbands boots to initiate play (:rolleyes:).

Even if we're not going in the car he gets scared because of other cars on the road. Lead training is very difficult as his way of dealing with fear is to drop his head and march forward at top speed, ignoring everything, including us! He's usually much better getting into the car after a long walk. Maybe because he knows where he's going. But he really never goes anywhere horrible. The vet is a walk away. I suppose one or two long drives could be on his mind, but I doubt he even notices time passing to be honest. I wonder if he feels travel sick so associates the sicky feeling with the car.

ppink

What stands out for me about what you said is that he will not play in the car with you or your husband but will with your sister. Does your sister drive?
I suppose you can either ignore him and keep putting him in there and hope it will stop or go right back to basics and not put him in at all or go anywhere until he is happy hopping in and out. I would be inclined to do the latter if you can at all.
Did you do the food thing when you had Phoenix with you? If not maybe he would be a good encouragement for the process. I would use his most favourite treats but I am sure you have probably done all that already.

hmmmm hard one! Do you have any friends near you that have other dogs that love the car? maybe a group encouragement of in and out and chasing the ball might help? I always thought that our dogs love it so much as it is contagious!

Zapperzy

Have you tried a crate in the car when travelling? If it's a carsick thing I have read that putting them as close to the very centre of the car is supposed to help.

It's funny you say he's better on the way home after a long walk, have you tried giving him a long walk at home and then trying the car when he's tired?

I do understand the stress of having an unhappy traveller, while my dog loves the car and would travel the world happily, my cat is a seriously unhappy traveller and I can sympathise with you on the level of those heartwrenching screams and the complete look of fear in her eyes when she sees a carrier is absolutely heartbreaking. Interestingly she is also always much quieter travelling home from wherever she is than travelling from home to wherever she is going.

Haha have to laugh at his initiation of play by running into your husband's boots! He sounds like a right loolaa!

Whispered

Ppink, no my sister doesn't drive which is why he's ok playing with her in and around the car. The kennel manager has used his own car and kids to play ball with him by throwing through the car and he's been fine. But he once dropped him home to us and Harley realised that his car moves - he's refused to play since. :rolleyes:

Zapperzy wrote: »

Have you tried a crate in the car when travelling? If it's a carsick thing I have read that putting them as close to the very centre of the car is supposed to help.

No I haven't - I even recently got a car with room for his crate but he freaks out so much looking at the crate in the car that I've never made him get in, he curls up as small as possible on the floor and I've just let him.

OK next step then is very long walk in our local area then into the car with the crate for a trip up to visit the Kennels (5 min drive and he loves them). I wont be able to do this until Saturday, but I will come back and let you know how we get on.

ppink

What about the kennels guy and kids playing with Harley in your car and then you joining in?

Whispered

Not a hope, if I'm near the car at all and he thinks it's going to go, he wont go near it except to get in and shake. When we collect him from the kennels he shakes as soon as he sees the car and ignores me until we get home. It's like he switches everything but his motor skills off. I honestly believe you could prd him with a needle and he wouldn't feel it.

For 3 days he didn't eat, on the third day I brought him to the car and instead of his kibble I brought warm chicken. I offered it (he was in the car all doors open) and he wouldn't take it, so I left it there for him and sat in the car with him for ages, he sat there shaking, eventually I got out of the car, left the doors open and came out 5 mins later, he had climbed out and was sitting outside the door looking in at the chicken I gave up at that point.

lrushe

benagain wrote: »

stop putting him in the drivers seat so lol. on a serious note id check the kennels out that you are useing something isint right me thinks.

You obviously don't know the kennels

ppink

Whispered are you driving like Michael Schumacher with poor Harley in the passenger seat:eek::D;)

Whispered

Lrushe - where is benagain's post - I can't see it. :eek: Am I on someones ignore list. But yeah the kennels are great, he loves going up and loves the people who work there. In fact I think he's happier there than at home sometimes. I am 100% sure it's not the kennels. But very fair point benagain, something I would definitely have to think about if I wasn't so sure about the place.

PPink, you could be onto something there, me in my little 1.3 flying around. Ah no I tend to be very careful when I have them in the car, you know to take corners easy etc - I turn into a right Sunday driver.

lrushe

Whispered wrote: »

Lrushe - where is benagain's post - I can't see it. :eek: Am I on someones ignore list. But yeah the kennels are great, he loves going up and loves the people who work there. In fact I think he's happier there than at home sometimes. I am 100% sure it's not the kennels. But very fair point benagain, something I would definitely have to think about if I wasn't so sure about the place.

Dunno where the post is gone now???
Keith's place is brill though, I'm highly insulted everytime I leave Brook there and she doesn't miss me a bit :)

ppink

Posts disappearing, dogs afraid to get in your car, now I'm getting worried ........:eek::P

The Sweeper

Car phobia isn't easily solved by things like treats, food, or worked out by a simple negative association.

When a dog is car phobic, the entire car-based experience feels to them like punishment. How can I put this - imagine a large man all dressed in black with a baseball bat. Every time you get too close to him, he hits you with the bat.

No amount of someone playing a game with you beside him is going to make you forget the man with the bat is there. No amount of offering you tasty food by placing them near him is going to make you take them. If you haven't eaten in a week, and someone places a cupcake on the outstretched hand of the man with the bat, your desire for the cake is still going to be overruled by your fear of the massively intimidating man with the bat.

For people who don't have a car phobic dog, it's really hard to understand how just hustling the dog along with some tasty treats or cuddles doesn't work. The best way I can describe it is with the man with the bat analogy - if you're terrified of something you're terrified of it, and that's really hard to work on.

I'm going to list all of the stuff I've tried, and I'll give you marks out of 10 for how well they've worked with Gus, and you can see if there's anything that you haven't tried with Harley.

• Food rewards in the car. 2/10 (Initially he wouldn't eat anything in the car - now he will, so that helps somewhat, but he won't get in the car for food.)
• Making the car more comfortable. 5/10 (I bought a backseat buddy type thing and put it in the 4x4 between the headrests of the front seat and the back seat. It helped. Then I changed to the station wagon, complete with dog guard, and we were back to 1/10.)
• Changing where the dog sits in the car. 6/10 (The boot of the 4x4 - wide open etc - bad. Too far from me in the driving seat. The back seat was better. At his best, when we were driving daily, Gus would sit in the back seat with his front paws on the elbow rest and look out the windscreen, trembling. He was clipped to the seatbelt holder, but not in a harness. It felt far too risky for me, but once I clipped on a harness, we were back to misery.)
• Other dog in the car. 1/10 (Epic fail. Not interested.)
• Car in the yard, doors and windows open: 5/10 (Helps to reduce his paranoia about it - he's more likely to walk past the car in the driveway for the few days after that, but then he slowly regresses until we're back to 'There's the car, I'm lying down'.)
• Taking the dog out to the car in the rain: 8/10 (Gus hates the rain. The only time he'll jump voluntarily in the car is to get out of the rain. However I don't think torturing the dog with a watering can to get him to jump in the car would be appropriate.)
• Car adjustment therapies - walking up to the car, around it and back indoors. 3/10 (The car is still scary. He tolerates the process and does what is asked of him, but it has no effect on his association with the car.)
• Short daily trips for walks: 7/10 (This appears to have had best effect. Put Gus in the car. Go somewhere nice. Come home. Still wouldn't jump in of own accord though.)
• Short daily trips to nowhere: 5.5/10 (This is where I'd put Gus in the car, drive for 10 mins around the block, come home and go back in the house. Helped him adjust to the car somewhat, but the lack of a 'destination reward' made it less effective than driving for a walk.)
• Putting someone Gus likes in the back seat with him, giving him a cuddle. 6/10 (Definitely helps to have someone coddling him while he's in there, but it's not practical. Also, when they're not there, he reverts.)
• Walking Gus through a carpark. 6/10 (I can get right up to my car in a carpark and Gus only realises he's been fooled when I open the boot.)

Seriously I've had times when at obedience or agility when, at the end of class I go to walk towards the car, and the dog just stops dead. It can take me up to 15 minutes to get him in the car because for the sake of my back I need to get him as close as possible to it before I have to pick him up. Picture it - sometimes I can't even get him close enough to it to be able to open the boot - so I have to pick up the dog, walk to the car, put him down, try and open the boot while the dog is straining madly to get away, then pick him up again and put him in. Even if I climb in with him he looks betrayed.

It's a huge problem because trying to fumble keys and open a car door with a dog straining to get away from the car means I have jarred myself, wrenched my shoulder, smacked myself in the face with the boot hatch, and generally had a complete pain in my arse with the dog and the car.

The next things I'm going to try are as follows:

• I'm going to use a set of steps for Gus and the car to make it REALLY easy for him to get in and out, so there's no jumping whatsoever required. And no, jumping isn't the problem - Gus is like a bloody kangaroo all day until he gets to the car, so no underlying hip or elbow problems! I'm hoping the steps might be a novelty that help though. He used to be able to step up into the 4x4 because he was in the back seat, and now has to jump into the station wagon, so just in case it helps I'll use steps. There was a stage where he'd almost get in the car voluntarily with a LOT of coaxing, or at least he'd get in half way and I could lift his back end to get him the whole way in - and that was stepping up into the 4x4.
• Gus LOVES his bed. He has a big SnoozaD1000 cushion for a bed. I'm going to put the bed in the boot of the station wagon and see if lying in his bed while we travel helps.
• I'm considering sleeping in the boot of the car with the dog, or putting his bed in there and getting into his bed with him and reading a book for a few hours or something while we go nowhere.

Gus is now nearly 15 months old. At the start, he couldn't travel in the car without either puking or literally shitting himself.

I consider it progress that he can now handle a car ride without losing any bodily fluids. He will also take a treat in the car, which again is a huge step forwards - previously he wouldn't eat anything he was offered in it.

He used to drool uncontrollably for the entire journey. Now he just sooks and whines and shivers and looks like he's being abused.

He DOES get excited about his destinations though, so the trips to do fun stuff definitely help.

Whispered

Thank you the Sweeper for (yet another) insightful, thoughtful and wise post. I'll reply as best I can, please forgive if a bit fragmented.

The Sweeper wrote: »

Car phobia isn't easily solved by things like treats, food, or worked out by a simple negative association.

When a dog is car phobic, the entire car-based experience feels to them like punishment. How can I put this - imagine a large man all dressed in black with a baseball bat. Every time you get too close to him, he hits you with the bat.

No amount of someone playing a game with you beside him is going to make you forget the man with the bat is there. No amount of offering you tasty food by placing them near him is going to make you take them. If you haven't eaten in a week, and someone places a cupcake on the outstretched hand of the man with the bat, your desire for the cake is still going to be overruled by your fear of the massively intimidating man with the bat.

For people who don't have a car phobic dog, it's really hard to understand how just hustling the dog along with some tasty treats or cuddles doesn't work. The best way I can describe it is with the man with the bat analogy - if you're terrified of something you're terrified of it, and that's really hard to work on.

This is very sad but true. Maybe if I could get him to even acknowledge me when he's scared, but he does act exactly like he's being punished. Ignoring, avoidance - he looks like a beaten dog, cowering, shaking and drooling. This would lead me to wonder if I should work on it, or just keep car journies to an extreme minimum. Problem there is we love to get away for the weekend and usually bring him, he visits my parents with us too. It would be a real shame to not be able to do that with him.

The Sweeper wrote: »

• Food rewards in the car. also 2/10 , he's ignored any attempt at feeding in the car, even when starving and chicken is given to him, with door wide open and nobody there to drive the car.
• Making the car more comfortable. 0/10 He insists on lying in the footwell, beds are ignored, harnesses cause convulsions, blankets on the floor dre dug up.
• Changing where the dog sits in the car. I have not tried this yet and will fit his crate in the car today and make him use it. Unfortunately as soon as he sees me collapse his crate he goes hiding in the garden or shaking and digging on the couch.
• Other dog in the car. 5/10 it seemed to work initially but the novelty soon wore off, poor Phoe can't understand why his buddy acts like he does exist in the car and lies on top of Harley. Harley just ignores it.
• Car in the yard, doors and windows open: 4/10 He'll pass it no problem, but when on the lead will shake and fret anyway.
• Taking the dog out to the car in the rain: 0/10 Mucky fella has no problem with the rain.
• Car adjustment therapies - walking up to the car, around it and back indoors. 3/10 Exactly the same, tolerates it, but it has no effect on his fear.
• Short daily trips for walks: 2/10 We only ever go nice places in the car. Our vet is a walk away. He loves being out, it's just getting there that the issue is. He's a very confident and happy boy once out of the car at our destination. On the way home he's not so bad.
• Short daily trips to nowhere: 0/10 I've only done thins twice and the fact he sat there shaking the whole time and ultimately got nothing from it made me feel too bad to do it again.
• Putting someone Gus likes in the back seat with him, giving him a cuddle. 2/10 Ignores everything around him. Other person may as well not be in the car.
• Walking Gus through a carpark. 2/10 shakes when in the vicinity of any car and would be aware that we're heading to the car

The Sweeper wrote: »

• I'm considering sleeping in the boot of the car with the dog, or putting his bed in there and getting into his bed with him and reading a book for a few hours or something while we go nowhere.

.

I've sat in the car with a book, with the doors open and Harley free to roam in and out. He eventually lay down beside the car looking in. No amount of coaxing would persuade him to get into the car. I even had my lunch in the car, and the idea of robbing some food couldn't entice him.


Thanks so much for your post. It's given me a lot to think about. I could get a behaviourist in, but it seems that this would be very very stressful on the dog and may not have any effect. I'm not quite sure where to go from here. We ideally would be able to have him wth us when we're going places, but the fear he displays really makes it hard to enjoy anything. I've cried feeling guilty at having to put him into the car. We'd gone beyond that in the past few months, but this set back has me reeling to be honest. I know if I fret too much he'll pick up on it and make him worse.

The poor boy has not got one nasty part to him, but when he's so scared, at some point he's likely to lash out, who could blame him, if he sees it as such a threat. I'm always mindful of how quickly fear can turn to defense and I don't want to put him in a position where he feels the need to protect himself.

I don't know what to do tbh.

The Sweeper

I wonder would a thundershirt work with the car? Just a flash of inspiration I've had now this second.

Cherry Blossom

lrushe wrote: »

Dunno where the post is gone now???

He deleted it. I've nothing to add to this thread at the minute, just wanted to point out that I didn't break it :pac:

Whispered

The Sweeper wrote: »

I wonder would a thundershirt work with the car? Just a flash of inspiration I've had now this second.

Just googled it and it says that it can be used for travel anxiety. It's worth a try. Now he panics at the sight of a lead or harness so maybe I should work on just that for a while. I watched the thundershirt video and read the training thing and can honestly say he's much worse than what was shown. They suggested the meals in the car thing etc.

So the plan is, order some of those fear drops recommended by ohmfg, order a thundershirt, walk the ass off him in the local area until he's wrecked, then a short drive up to visit the kennels. I'll do it all together - assault all the senses see if we can get a bit of an improvement.

ISDW

Good call from Sweeper, the thundershirt could be an option, a friend of mine had a setter that would get sick every time he went in the van, one day they put his harness on before they went, and he wasn't sick. Different to Harley I know, but it might work. However, before you spend out on a thundershirt - Moy Vets in Ballina by the way are selling them cheaper than anywhere else than I've seen:D put a t-shirt on him and see if it has any effect, it needs to be small enough that it feels tight on him, but not too tight obviously that he can't breathe or move properly. Again, a friend of mine has a husky that has severe stress problems, a couple of weeks ago she posted on FB that he was totally freaked out, in a really bad way because of building work next door, she put a t-shirt on and he calmed down straight away and went to sleep, they had tried behaviourists, medication from the vets, rescue remedy everything. Nothing worked, she couldn't believe what happened with the t-shirt.

Whispered

Brilliant idea - will have a root later and see if it helps.

Would you think this sequence of events would work.

• t-shirt on
• allow him to relax and get used to it
• bring out lead and let him see it (at this stage I'll know if there is a difference)
• clip it on, give treat
• If he takes treat, unclip lead
• begin again a while later

Or should I have him on the lead the put the t-shirt on.

Sorry for silly questions but this is an entirely new concept to me.

ISDW

Whispered wrote: »

Brilliant idea - will have a root later and see if it helps.

Would you think this sequence of events would work.

• t-shirt on
• allow him to relax and get used to it
• bring out lead and let him see it (at this stage I'll know if there is a difference)
• clip it on, give treat
• If he takes treat, unclip lead
• begin again a while later

Or should I have him on the lead the put the t-shirt on.

Sorry for silly questions but this is an entirely new concept to me.

I don't know;) I would use whatever training the thundershirt sites say, just using the t-shirt instead, is that the sequence that they advise?

Whispered

I can't find much on it at the moment, then again I really need sleep so it's probably staring me in the face I'll have another look later and I'll report back to see if it makes a difference.

Thanks a mil for all the advice.

ohmfg

From reading what you've said Whispered, I understand that the lead, in and of itself is not a problem? It's how he connects it with the car that's the issue? If you are just bringing him for a walk locally - without the car involvement - does he react to the lead?

Sorry for all the question marks - feel there should be a bright light shining on you:D.

If it is the case that the lead per se is not an issue, I would leave it out of the t-shirt/thundershirt scenario.
I would bring Harley to the car in the normal manner, remove the lead - then put on the t-shirt/thundershirt. It is only under stress that the comfort of the shirt kicks in, so I would only use it in the car, ie, the really intensely fearful part of the process.