Got caught out calling a non-O2 number

gebbel

I am on a billpay plan with O2 that gives free anytime calls to other O2 numbers. With all my minutes used up this month and 1 day to go to next months minutes being applied, I called my sister who had always been on the O2 network and has an 086 prefix.....and spent 30 minutes yapping to her. I thought it was a free call until she told me after 29 minutes that she had changed to the Three network a few days before.

The call cost 9 euro and has left me fuming. Never got caught out before with O2 but feel like a fool now!

I thought when you dial a number not on your network, but having your networks prefix, that you hear a beep to inform you of this. I have heard these beeps in the past.

Am I missing something?

Thanks.

TeaServer

You should have got the off-net tone at the start of the call. You normally get it before the call is connected to give you the opportunity to cancel the call.

Its likely that you missed it on this occasion.

/T

ardmacha

Mobile phones are a service where you cannot tell how much a call is going to cost you. Comreg need to attend to this, among the other anti-consumer practices in the industry.

AG2R

Don't get a bill phone


/thread]

krudler

AG2R wrote: »

Don't get a bill phone


/thread]

if they were on a prepay phone ringing a non o2 number the call would have cost more

AG2R

Not if they have free calls and texts to all irish networks.

krudler

ardmacha wrote: »

Mobile phones are a service where you cannot tell how much a call is going to cost you. Comreg need to attend to this, among the other anti-consumer practices in the industry.

unless you pay attention to your tariff?

sdanseo

krudler wrote: »

if they were on a prepay phone ringing a non o2 number the call would have cost more

30-49c per minute insetad of 27c. At least 10% more, up to double.

Bill makes sense for some people, I'll never understand why some people are so vehemently against it. My bill comes out of my account once a month, I don't overspend because I know what I'm doing, I never have to topup, I never get caught with no credit, my calls are about a quarter of the cost of prepay...etc

No-brainer unless all you ever do is text. Which to me is annoying - you get so much more said in a 5 minute call than in an hour of back and forth texting.

kirving

Almost all phones have an on-screen call timer, you are told very clearly the call rates. Some extremely basic maths is all thats need to work out how much a call is going to cost.


You can't expect to be babysat constantly, my kettle doesn't have a display telling me how much it's costing, but I can work it out if I really want.

AntiVirus

sdeire wrote: »

I never get caught with no credit

How many times do you here someone on prepay say "can you call me back, I'm almost out of credit" :-D

ardmacha

unless you pay attention to your tariff?

Even if you know your tariff off by heart, there is no way of identifying which network the number is on in advance of the call. The system knows, why not provide some method of the customer knowing?

sdanseo

ardmacha wrote: »

Even if you know your tariff off by heart, there is no way of identifying which network the number is on in advance of the call. The system knows, why not provide some method of the customer knowing?

Have you actually read the thread? Both your contributions have been incorrect.

There is a tone played before your call connects to identify it as an off-network call. It is irrelevant which network the person you are calling is with, only that it is not the one you're on yourself. Operators don't charge one rate for calling one competitor, and another rate for a different competitor - it's On-Net or Off-Net only.

krudler

ardmacha wrote: »

Even if you know your tariff off by heart, there is no way of identifying which network the number is on in advance of the call. The system knows, why not provide some method of the customer knowing?

It does.

krudler

sdeire wrote: »

30-49c per minute insetad of 27c. At least 10% more, up to double.

Bill makes sense for some people, I'll never understand why some people are so vehemently against it. My bill comes out of my account once a month, I don't overspend because I know what I'm doing, I never have to topup, I never get caught with no credit, my calls are about a quarter of the cost of prepay...etc

No-brainer unless all you ever do is text. Which to me is annoying - you get so much more said in a 5 minute call than in an hour of back and forth texting.

It baffles me how people who are on billpay dont keep any track of their spending then get shocked at a huge bill, despite the info being on their phone, gotten on the customer care ivr, on the website, on spends alerts, etc etc, theres only so mcuh handholding and mollycoddling a network can do, the rest is up to the customer.

ardmacha

It does.

OK, if I have a number 085 1234567, please identify how I know on which network this is?

If I call 021-123456 I know how much this will cost, if I call a mobile I do not.

Customer information is not mollycoddling, it is basic requirement in a civilised society.

krudler

ardmacha wrote: »

OK, if I have a number 085 1234567, please identify how I know on which network this is?

If I call 021-123456 I know how much this will cost, if I call a mobile I do not.

Customer information is not mollycoddling, it is basic requirement in a civilised society.

seriously,seriously? its been mentioned three times already on this thread, the phone emits a tone before the call connects to tell you its an off net number and therefore chargeable, the cost of the call is based on your price plan eg 27c per min to off net, its not some random charge the network makes up they cant change these once you're on a particular tariff.

drunkmonkey

gebbel wrote: »

Am I missing something?

Yea you need more minutes, time to do what mother Mary said and shop around. Bet you could double your any time any one minutes buy seeing what on else is on offer outside of the o2 bubble your currently in.

sdanseo

ardmacha wrote: »

OK, if I have a number 085 1234567, please identify how I know on which network this is?

If I call 021-123456 I know how much this will cost, if I call a mobile I do not.

Customer information is not mollycoddling, it is basic requirement in a civilised society.

For the fourth time on this thread:

It does not matter what network you're calling once it's not the network you are on. If you go off-network, to any number not a landline, you get charged the same regardless of the network you're calling. The off network rate is provided to you in your price plan.

ardmacha

sdeire wrote: »

For the fourth time on this thread:

It does not matter what network you're calling once it's not the network you are on. If you go off-network, to any number not a landline, you get charged the same regardless of the network you're calling. The off network rate is provided to you in your price plan.

Repeating something that isn't the answer to my question and bolding it and underlining it shows great capability with boards.ie formatting but doesn't answer my question. Why don't you colour it as well? Perhaps you should focus on the issue, not on show off formatting.

I simply want to know how much a call will cost me before I decide to make it. An easily overlooked beep half way after the call is dialled is not a proper response to that requirement. Mobile telephony is almost unique in that you cannot ascertain the cost until half through the process. Ths restriction of information suits mobile providers as it prevents me easily getting an O2 sim to ring O2 numbers and a Vodafone sim to ring Vodafone numbers.

krudler

ardmacha wrote: »

Repeating something that isn't the answer to my question and bolding it and underlining it shows great capability with boards.ie formatting but doesn't answer my question. Why don't you colour it as well? Perhaps you should focus on the issue, not on show off formatting.

I simply want to know how much a call will cost me before I decide to make it. An easily overlooked beep half way after the call is dialled is not a proper response to that requirement. Mobile telephony is almost unique in that you cannot ascertain the cost until half through the process. Ths restriction of information suits mobile providers as it prevents me easily getting an O2 sim to ring O2 numbers and a Vodafone sim to ring Vodafone numbers.

your call charges are given to you when you first take out your contract, they're also on the networks website, or gotten by ringing customer care. its freely available info given to you from day one, your call costs stay the same on the plan you're using for as long as you're using it.

gizmo555

ardmacha wrote: »

I simply want to know how much a call will cost me before I decide to make it. An easily overlooked beep half way after the call is dialled is not a proper response to that requirement. Mobile telephony is almost unique in that you cannot ascertain the cost until half through the process.

This is a very good point. There must be a central database of mobile numbers and the networks to which they're allocated. Why not make this freely accessible to download or lookup online?

ardmacha wrote: »

Ths restriction of information suits mobile providers as it prevents me easily getting an O2 sim to ring O2 numbers and a Vodafone sim to ring Vodafone numbers.

Spot on!

kirving

http://www.meteor.ie/support/meteor_services/check_if_a_mobile_number_is_on_the_meteor_network/

Might help.

Everyone has answered your question. The beep is there for a reason, even if the phone's screen displayed the network you're calling, you'd have a problem with that anyway.

gizmo555

sugarman wrote: »

Its not that hard tbh, everyone HAS answered your question.

If it beeps its gonna cost you a cross rate to another network.

No they haven't. If it beeps, you know it's not your network, but you don't know what network it is. It would be trivially easy to make this information available, if the will was there.

jordainius

gizmo555 wrote: »

This is a very good point. There must be a central database of mobile numbers and the networks to which they're allocated. Why not make this freely accessible to download or lookup online?

I sure as hell don't want my number listed on a freely accessible database for all to see thank you very much!

gizmo555 wrote: »

No they haven't. If it beeps, you know it's not your network, but you don't know what network it is. It would be trivially easy to make this information available, if the will was there.

A number is either on your network or it isn't! What difference does it make to know the exact network? If I'm an O2 customer, I'll get free on net calls but the off net charge will be the same regardless of what network it is. So I don't see why one would need to know the exact network.

drunkmonkey

gizmo555 wrote: »

No they haven't. If it beeps, you know it's not your network, but you don't know what network it is. It would be trivially easy to make this information available, if the will was there.

yea but if it's not your network you charged the off net price what ever that is relative to your price plan.
You should know the costs or your phone plan and you should know them before you sign up to a contract.

krudler

gizmo555 wrote: »

No they haven't. If it beeps, you know it's not your network, but you don't know what network it is. It would be trivially easy to make this information available, if the will was there.

one more time for the cheap seats, its DOESNT MATTER what network you're ringing, off net is off net its the same charge! if you get free o2 calls and 27c per min to ring off net, thats ALL the networks, be it 3, vodafone, meteor, tesco, emobile. theres no seperate charges for the different networks its one cost for all of them.

also, a database showing what network everyone is on? err, data protection act?

gizmo555

jordainius wrote: »

I sure as hell don't want my number listed on a freely accessible database for all to see thank you very much!

There is no loss of privacy. The only information I suggest should be available is the number, and the network to which it currently belongs - no names or other personal information about the subscriber need be given out. This information is already partially given by the "beep" anyway.

jordainius wrote: »

A number is either on your network or it isn't! What difference does it make to know the exact network?

Because if you have access to more than one phone (or have a dual SIM phone, or a multi SIM GSM gateway), on more than one network, you can choose to make the call on the one which is cheapest for any given call.

gizmo555

krudler wrote: »

also, a database showing what network everyone is on? err, data protection act?

Why is a beep to indicate that a given number is not on your network not a data protection issue?

Why was it not a data protection issue before number portability was introduced and you knew the mobile network from the prefix, in the same way you still know an 01 number is Dublin and 021 is Cork?

gebbel

I don't hear a beep when I'm calling my sister or my mate on my phone. They have an 086 prefix but changed over to other networks. If I heard a beep I would be aware that I'm chewing into the minutes I have on the contract. This is how I got caught out. Where is the bloody beep!!

drunkmonkey

krudler wrote: »

also, a database showing what network everyone is on? err, data protection act?

that and competition laws. We need the likes of three and meteor to bring in good deals for people, until number portability came in everyone would just stick with 086 or 087 as they could tell from the prefix. If that stayed in place nobody would move to another challenger network and thus no competition.

Anyone on bill pay should get their contract based on how many minutes they'd use if all their friends were on different networks. That's the only way to buy a bill phone anything else is a false economy.

krudler

gizmo555 wrote: »

Why is a beep to indicate that a given number is not on your network not a data protection issue?

Why was it not a data protection issue before number portability was introduced and you knew the mobile network from the prefix, in the same way you still know an 01 number is Dublin and 021 is Cork?

knowing a number is on one of the networks, not a specific network, is two different things, if its not o2 it can be 3, tesco, vodafone, meteor or emobile. obviously it has to be on one of them, if you know what network the person is on you know how much its costing them to make calls, its the same reason why you can only see your outgoing and not incoming calls on a phone bill, data protection.

drunkmonkey

krudler wrote: »

obviously it has to be on one of them,

here you can borrow mine.

gizmo555

drunkmonkey wrote: »

that and competition laws. We need the likes of three and meteor to bring in good deals for people, until number portability came in everyone would just stick with 086 or 087 as they could tell from the prefix. If that stayed in place nobody would move to another challenger network and thus no competition.

Anyone on bill pay should get their contract based on how many minutes they'd use if all their friends were on different networks. That's the only way to buy a bill phone anything else is a false economy.

I can't make head nor tail of this, but I completely fail to see how it is good for competition to prevent consumers knowing what a phone call will cost before they make it.

krudler wrote: »

knowing a number is on one of the networks, not a specific network, is two different things, if its not o2 it can be 3, tesco, vodafone, meteor or emobile. obviously it has to be on one of them, if you know what network the person is on you know how much its costing them to make calls, its the same reason why you can only see your outgoing and not incoming calls on a phone bill, data protection.

This is utter cobblers - I see the network of every number I ring when I get my bill. Why is it a data protection issue to have this information before I make the call, but not after I make it?

And everyone talking up this famous beep as a way to keep track of and control costs takes no account of people calling mobiles from landlines, who have absolutely no way to know the cost of a call to a mobile in advance.

krudler

gizmo555 wrote: »

And everyone talking up this famous beep as a way to keep track of and control costs takes no account of people calling mobiles from landlines, who have absolutely no way to know the cost of a call to a mobile in advance.

except when they give you that info when you first take out the plan? its on the contract terms on landlines as well

gizmo555

krudler wrote: »

except when they give you that info when you first take out the plan? its on the contract terms on landlines as well

Give you what info? They don't give you the information to know in advance what a call to a mobile phone will cost, if you don't already know what network it's on.

NuMarvel

gizmo555 wrote: »

Give you what info? They don't give you the information to know in advance what a call to a mobile phone will cost, if you don't already know what network it's on.

That would be covered in the part where they say something like "Calls to customers on the same network as you are X cent per minute. Calls to customers on other networks are Y cent per minute. Calls to landlines are Z cent per minute."

So it's either X or Y, depending on whether you hear the beep or not. Y is usually more expensive, whereas X is usually free, depending on your network and your particular tariff.

gizmo555

NuMarvel wrote: »

That would be covered in the part where they say something like "Calls to customers on the same network as you are X cent per minute. Calls to customers on other networks are Y cent per minute. Calls to landlines are Z cent per minute."

So it's either X or Y, depending on whether you hear the beep or not. Y is usually more expensive, whereas X is usually free, depending on your network and your particular tariff.

Please keep up.

gizmo555 wrote: »

And everyone talking up this famous beep as a way to keep track of and control costs takes no account of people calling mobiles from landlines, who have absolutely no way to know the cost of a call to a mobile in advance.

Sir Oxman

I know exactly how much it costs per minute to call a mobile number from my UPC landline.

NuMarvel

gizmo555 wrote: »

Please keep up.

Already ahead of you. Within four clicks, I was able to easily see what eircom charge for calls to mobiles.

gizmo555

NuMarvel wrote: »

Already ahead of you. Within four clicks, I was able to easily see what eircom charge for calls to mobiles.

gambiaman wrote: »

I know exactly how much it costs per minute to call a mobile number from my UPC landline.

You may happen to be on a tariff that charges the same rate for calls to all Irish mobiles. It's very common for landline tariffs to have different rates for calls to different mobile networks.

For example, I'm on a Vodafone at Home tariff which includes 200 minutes to Vodafone mobiles per month - calls to other mobile networks are 20c/min. So, when I call a mobile from my landline, the call might be free, or it could cost 20c/minute and I have no way of knowing which until I get the bill.

krudler

gizmo555 wrote: »

Give you what info? They don't give you the information to know in advance what a call to a mobile phone will cost, if you don't already know what network it's on.

you dont really seem to be understanding the part where mobile calls are the same charge no matter what network they're on, it doesnt matter, it goes by what your plan details are

gizmo555

krudler wrote: »

you dont really seem to be understanding the part where mobile calls are the same charge no matter what network they're on, it doesnt matter, it goes by what your plan details are

And you don't seem to understand that many landline tariffs have different rates for calls to different mobile networks - this is especially common on business tariffs, where very often each mobile network is charged at a completely different rate. It's also true for some consumer tariffs, including my own, as I mentioned above.

TeaServer

I cannot believe that people are still arguing over this. The original question has been answered several times.

Any subscriber on any network has the following details provided when they sign-up for the service:
1. Cost to on-net
2. Cost to off-net
3. Cost to landlines
4. Cost to mobiles (if a landline customer)

The people wanting to know the specific network would be the first people to complain if you had to decode a series of beeps for each operator or had to listen to an announcement before every call.

The simplist solution is the solution in place today. A simple beep to indicate if the number is off-net (when the dialed number has the same network prefix as your provider, but has ported out.)

If your provider have different rates to different mobile providers then I would say that this is something you need to address with your provider. The regulations in place are for consumers, not businesses.

/T

gizmo555

TeaServer wrote: »

I cannot believe that people are still arguing over this. The original question has been answered several times.

The claimed solution doesn't seem to work for the OP.

gebbel wrote: »

I don't hear a beep when I'm calling my sister or my mate on my phone . . . This is how I got caught out. Where is the bloody beep!!

TeaServer wrote: »

The simplist solution is the solution in place today. A simple beep to indicate if the number is off-net (when the dialed number has the same network prefix as your provider, but has ported out.)

It would be equally simple to provide public access to the database of mobile numbers and their associated networks, without any personally identifying information, say on the ComReg website. The arguments made in this thread that this would somehow be a breach of personal privacy are completely groundless.

TeaServer wrote: »

If your provider have different rates to different mobile providers then I would say that this is something you need to address with your provider.

How? Should I ask Vodafone to stop giving me the 200 free minutes a month to Vodafone mobiles?

TeaServer wrote: »

The regulations in place are for consumers, not businesses.

Huh? That's news to me - and to ComReg:

ComReg enables competition in the communications sector by facilitating market entry through a general authorisation to provide networks and services and by regulating access to networks so as to develop effective choice for consumers both business and residential . . . .Our activities are geared to operators and business & residential users of communications services.

TeaServer

gizmo555 wrote: »

The claimed solution doesn't seem to work for the OP.

Ok, I have no way of verifying this. I know the off-net tone works for me.

gizmo555 wrote: »

It would be equally simple to provide public access to the database of mobile numbers and their associated networks, without any personally identifying information, say on the ComReg website. The arguments made in this thread that this would somehow be a breach of personal privacy are completely groundless.

Simple - yes. Convenient = no.

gizmo555 wrote: »

How? Should I ask Vodafone to stop giving me the 200 free minutes a month to Vodafone mobiles?

I expect you get the off-net tone for all mobile calls to 087 and ported out. Otherwise you must assume the calls are not free.

gizmo555 wrote: »

Huh? That's news to me - and to ComReg:

ComReg enables competition in the communications sector by facilitating market entry through a general authorisation to provide networks and services and by regulating access to networks so as to develop effective choice for consumers both business and residential . . . .Our activities are geared to operators and business & residential users of communications services.

Fair point. I didn't realise this was the case for business too. But in principla the same tone method should work.

/T

sdanseo

ardmacha wrote: »

Repeating something that isn't the answer to my question and bolding it and underlining it shows great capability with boards.ie formatting but doesn't answer my question. Why don't you colour it as well? Perhaps you should focus on the issue, not on show off formatting.

I simply want to know how much a call will cost me before I decide to make it. An easily overlooked beep half way after the call is dialled is not a proper response to that requirement. Mobile telephony is almost unique in that you cannot ascertain the cost until half through the process. Ths restriction of information suits mobile providers as it prevents me easily getting an O2 sim to ring O2 numbers and a Vodafone sim to ring Vodafone numbers.

I don't get how you still feel your question hasn't answered. But if answering you in purple letters would help, I can arrange same.

Seriously though, why do you want to know what network someone is? All you need to know is what it will cost you. Which is off net rate x number of minutes. It's not hard!

In any event, I highly doubt there is any central database, certainly in my two years working for a mobile network in this country I've never come across one Even if one did exist, it would be in breach of the data protection act for me to tell a customer on demand what network a certain number belongs to; so that idea is void.

4ndroid

gizmo555 wrote: »

It would be equally simple to provide public access to the database of mobile numbers and their associated networks, without any personally identifying information, say on the ComReg website. The arguments made in this thread that this would somehow be a breach of personal privacy are completely groundless.

Yeah except that they're not. I give my number to who I choose as do most. I dont want Joe Salesman looking up a database cold-calling just cause they have access or some scammer goin through the list playing the "law-of-average" on getting money and conning people, because this is the reality of the world we live in.

Learn the prices for on-net and off-net, ask the people you talk to what network they're on and if unsure....text. It's usually cheaper.

Some of your posts are laughable.

ostrich

sdeire wrote: »

I don't get how you still feel your question hasn't answered. But if answering you in purple letters would help, I can arrange same.

Seriously though, why do you want to know what network someone is? All you need to know is what it will cost you. Which is off net rate x number of minutes. It's not hard!

In any event, I highly doubt there is any central database, certainly in my two years working for a mobile network in this country I've never come across one Even if one did exist, it would be in breach of the data protection act for me to tell a customer on demand what network a certain number belongs to; so that idea is void.

The OP should find this website helpful I believe;)
http://mobile-status.com

4ndroid

ostrich wrote: »

The OP should find this website helpful I believe;)
http://mobile-status.com

Yeah terms and conditions are in German or something.

http://mobile-status.com/agb.html

Doesnt look legit but thats my opinion.

gizmo555

TeaServer wrote: »

I expect you get the off-net tone for all mobile calls to 087 and ported out. Otherwise you must assume the calls are not free.

There is no off-net tone for calls from my landline, which is where I get the 200 free minutes to Vodafone mobiles.

TeaServer wrote: »

Fair point. I didn't realise this was the case for business too. But in principla the same tone method should work.

Again, I'm talking about calls from landlines - there is no off-net tone.

sdeire wrote: »

ISeriously though, why do you want to know what network someone is? All you need to know is what it will cost you. Which is off net rate x number of minutes. It's not hard!

As has already been explained several times, if you have more than one phone, a dual SIM phone, or a multi SIM GSM gateway, why wouldn't you want to optimise your call rates?

sdeire wrote: »

IIn any event, I highly doubt there is any central database, certainly in my two years working for a mobile network in this country I've never come across one

How else would operators avoid duplication of numbers?

sdeire wrote: »

Even if one did exist, it would be in breach of the data protection act for me to tell a customer on demand what network a certain number belongs to; so that idea is void.

Mobile operators already tell customers what network each number they call is on - it shows up on the bill after you make the call. If that's not a data protection issue, why is it an issue before the call is made?

4ndroid wrote: »

Yeah except that they're not. I give my number to who I choose as do most. I dont want Joe Salesman looking up a database cold-calling just cause they have access or some scammer goin through the list playing the "law-of-average" on getting money and conning people, because this is the reality of the world we live in.

How can knowing what mobile network a given number is on help cold callers or fraudsters? I'm not suggesting any personal information be made available.

ostrich wrote: »

The OP should find this website helpful I believe;)
http://mobile-status.com

It doesn't work.

4ndroid

gizmo555 wrote: »

How can knowing what mobile network a given number is on help cold callers or fraudsters? I'm not suggesting any personal information be made available.

Neither am I, but you said "It would be equally simple to provide public access to the database of mobile numbers and their associated networks"

But if its page and page and page,etc, of numbers publically available (this is what it sounds like you're suggesting) then coldcallers and fraudsters have access to a database of opportunity. Yes, I realise that a regular phonebook is publicly available but to me mobile numbers are far more personal. I dont want to argue over something that doesnt exist but I'd rather the mobile networks did something internally between themselves to indicate off-net/on-net calls but they probably dont wanna do anything to fix it cos to them it aint broke.