Collars

piperh

Discodog wrote: »

Recall can never be 100% guaranteed perfect. I can remember being at a sheepdog trial when, the highly tipped winner, suddenly decided to ignore every command despite the shepherd going so red that we thought he was about to have a heart attack !

I had to smile when i read that, i know it shouldn't but it always makes me feel better to know even the experts and their dogs have bad days as well. ;)

carwash_2006

For anybody with issues with recall, or any training issues with dogs that are considered less trainable. Breeds that like to think for themselves and whatnot. I cannot recommend this book highly enough, "When Pigs Fly" by J Killion.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/When-Pigs-Fly-Training-Impossible/dp/1929242441/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1311298215&sr=1-1

Fantastic book with wonderful step by step instructions for training the more stubborn animals. Fantastic section on perfecting recall in even the most stubborn dogs.

ISDW, you might be surprised, you might even persuade some of your lot to have recall if you have time. My aunt has managed to instill amazing recall into her wee lurcher who was one of the most independent animals she ever laid eyes on, using the techniques in the book. In her first year she really despaired of ever doing such a thing, but you wouldn't imagine it now. It does take time and dedication though.

Discodog

carwash_2006 wrote: »

ISDW, you might be surprised, you might even persuade some of your lot to have recall if you have time.

ISDW has loads of spare time

I suspect that some of her pack would be like my Greyhound. She will recall most of the time but I could never rely on it & her chase/prey drive could make it a potentially serious situation.

ISDW

carwash_2006 wrote: »

For anybody with issues with recall, or any training issues with dogs that are considered less trainable. Breeds that like to think for themselves and whatnot. I cannot recommend this book highly enough, "When Pigs Fly" by J Killion.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/When-Pigs-Fly-Training-Impossible/dp/1929242441/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1311298215&sr=1-1

Fantastic book with wonderful step by step instructions for training the more stubborn animals. Fantastic section on perfecting recall in even the most stubborn dogs.

ISDW, you might be surprised, you might even persuade some of your lot to have recall if you have time. My aunt has managed to instill amazing recall into her wee lurcher who was one of the most independent animals she ever laid eyes on, using the techniques in the book. In her first year she really despaired of ever doing such a thing, but you wouldn't imagine it now. It does take time and dedication though.

I do train recall, in our big field and the dogs all come back to me, because they know they are in an enclosed field. Every single husky breed club and welfare organisation around the world gives the same advice never to let them off lead except in an unenclosed area. They used to be set free in the summer months to look after themselves by the Chukchi people, and it is so hard wired into them, that it doesn't matter what treats or methods you use, they don't work on the great majority of the breed. I'm not saying some huskies can't be trained to recall outside of an enclosed area, but they are very rare and wondrous dogs:D I'm also not saying that my dogs wouldn't come back to me 8 out of 10 times if they slipped their lead or something happened, but its that 2 out of 10 that I won't take any chances with. Their prey drive is too high, and their ability to cover miles in a couple of minutes is too dangerous.

Discodog wrote: »

ISDW has loads of spare time

I suspect that some of her pack would be like my Greyhound. She will recall most of the time but I could never rely on it & her chase/prey drive could make it a potentially serious situation.

Yeah, my alpha boy is actually an incredibly obedient dog, but he caught a hedgehog in our field yesterday:( Nothing would get through to him, he was out with 3 other dogs, so obviously he wasn't going to drop it when they were around, I put them away, went back out and it still took another 20 minutes before I got him away from the hedgehog, and that was only by throwing something near him, he was distracted for a second and I threw a paddling pool upside down over the hedgehog. It survived as well, it was just curled up in a ball, and drove Diesel mad cos he couldn't get at it. Yet put that dog in harness and he will run past other dogs, rabbits, we've even gone past deer to the side of the trail, but off lead, totally different situation. I used to walk him off lead when he was a pup, and he would come back for his treat, take it then dart off again before I could catch him, if I tried to catch his collar before giving him the treat, he decided it wasn't that important to him, and off he'd go, even his favourite liver cake. Took him to obedience classes, and he was brilliant, it was inside, and he was totally focused on everything he had to do. It is just that prey drive, it kicks in, and nothing any human can do will over-ride it.

carwash_2006

Don't get me wrong ISDW, I wasn't at all suggesting that yours don't have recall or that you don't train them

Was actually meant as a joke, I know exactly about not being able to risk the prey drive, my wee fella has excellent recall and yet I will still only let him off the lead on the beach, preferably without other dogs present due to his extremely high prey drive and it being the one place where he can't disappear after something small and furry. That'll teach me to post at silly hours of the morning

ISDW

carwash_2006 wrote: »

Don't get me wrong ISDW, I wasn't at all suggesting that yours don't have recall or that you don't train them

Was actually meant as a joke, I know exactly about not being able to risk the prey drive, my wee fella has excellent recall and yet I will still only let him off the lead on the beach, preferably without other dogs present due to his extremely high prey drive and it being the one place where he can't disappear after something small and furry. That'll teach me to post at silly hours of the morning

Ah no offence taken, I know you know your stuff,:D unfortunately though I hear constantly from people who have got a husky and didn't realise it can't be let off lead etc, and are wondering why their dog is missing, or has been knocked down. I think its such a shame, I love seeing them run free, we're lucky to have our field, but so many of them don't get that chance. Opens up a whole other debate I think on whether all breeds of dogs should be kept as pets or not. Hmmm, wonder how heated that would get on here.;)

carwash_2006

Totally agree with you on that one. I had a discussion about it with a Patterdale breeder once and he certainly felt that they are really not suitable as pet dog for the majority of owners. If not stimulated and trained well enough they become so unruly and can do serious damage in the wrong circumstances. Ends up not fair on the dogs or other people. I can well imagine a few other breeds being similar and I think sometimes people don't listen to the people that really know the breeds on these matters.

Sorry to go off topic there mods.

Mr. Manager

Discodog wrote: »

Is she neutered ? A good trainer could work wonders. Take a look here:

http://www.dogtrainingireland.ie/home.php

They performed wonders with a friend's GSD that hated men !

Yea we got the Newfie neutered about 5 weeks ago. Didn't want our puppy getting at her and having a litter. Also figured it might take a bit of the edge off of her, no dice though

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

Have you tried letting them off the lead one at a time?

Haven't done that as once one of them is off the lead the other gets extremely excited and agitated knowing that they're about to be let off any minute. Will give it a go next time I'm in the business park.

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

You should probably try to get her used to other females tbh. If you have a friend or family member with another female that's well adjusted it might be an idea to organise to walk them together without the pup there and take it from there slowly. Eventually letting them off the lead somewhere secure when they are comfortable with each others company. If you do this with a few different dogs when she's comfortable with each one you should start to notice a difference in her.

Tried this with my parents collie but she is extremely protective of her property and also afraid of big dogs so with that combo it didn't go so well. I have been speaking with my parents in the hopes that I can use their back garden and dog to try and socialise the Newfie a bit better. The garden is huge so it would be really helpful for practicing recall

easyeason3 wrote: »

How in the name of God do manage with a 54kg Newfoundland in an apartment?
That takes some work!

The only problem with the apartment is not having a garden to let them go bananas, other than that, they're happy with it. Have 2 balconies that they chill out on after a nice long walk.

easyeason3 wrote: »

How often is she walked or how many times a day is she brought out?

Depending on myself and the OH's working arrangement. They'll get a minimum of 3 walks a day, one of them being a longer (hour +) walk. When I've a day off I'll take them to the local business park to chase rabbits and tire them out. When they're pooped, they listen to my every word!

Discodog

Cereal Rapist wrote: »

Yea we got the Newfie neutered about 5 weeks ago. Didn't want our puppy getting at her and having a litter. Also figured it might take a bit of the edge off of her, no dice though

Neutering won't work instantly. I would get some behaviourist help. She is a big dog & it's much better to get her temperament sorted.

tk123

Teehee OP I thought of you earlier when i saw this - a walkie talkie collar!! :pac: http://thetrailersbay.com/watch.php?type=youtube&v=AftWvTBWte0

DBB

Discodog wrote: »

Neutering won't work instantly. I would get some behaviourist help. She is a big dog & it's much better to get her temperament sorted.

Neutering of a female tends not to bring about much change in general behaviour, and tends not to have the same calming effect it has in males.
Neutering has a positive effect on male dog behaviour in about 90% of cases.
Finally, temperament cannot be changed. Behaviour can, but temperament can't.

Discodog

DBB wrote: »

Neutering of a female tends not to bring about much change in general behaviour, and tends not to have the same calming effect it has in males.
Neutering has a positive effect on male dog behaviour in about 90% of cases.
Finally, temperament cannot be changed. Behaviour can, but temperament can't.

Over the years I have noticed huge changes with female neutering. My two girls were prone to tiffs - haven't had one since neutering. Hormones & hormonal balance play a huge part in female behaviour.

Sorry but the idea of a fixed temperament is very out dated. I personally have a dog that made a 180 degree turnaround. She was extremely nervous almost to the point of aggression & is now the most confident laid back dog that you could ever meet. Much of the theory is still based in the old ideas of packs & dominance.

Your support for dog wardens in a previous post & your claim that temperament cannot be altered are linked in that the "establishment" of wardens. pounds etc believe it & kill many dogs because of this misapprehension.

Also people mistakenly choose a breed based on so called temperament & condemn breeds for the same reasons. Dogs are individuals.

DBB

Before I post, apologies to people reading if my post gets a bit jargon-y! but there are some misinterpretation which need to be addressed.

Over the years I have noticed huge changes with female neutering. My two girls were prone to tiffs - haven't had one since neutering. Hormones & hormonal balance play a huge part in female behaviour.

Hmmm... n=2.
For your 2 I'll raise you two dozen who don't stop fighting after neutering. Of course hormones can play a part in behaviour with inter-female aggression (whatever the species), especially when the hormonal period is active around coming into/out of heat, pseudopregnancies etc.
Nevertheless, I'll go along with my more statistically sound figures, because individual exceptions do not really cut it when we're talking about a general population.
In any case, you will notice I said "tend to", not "definitely 100% will"
You might already have read in another post of mine that early spaying may make an aggressive female worse... but maybe you missed that as it doesn't suit your argument?

Sorry but the idea of a fixed temperament is very out dated

Is it? Can you show me evidence for this please, I'd be very interested to see it? Please note, I don't want any links to internet sites, unless they are direct links to published research papers please.

I personally have a dog that made a 180 degree turnaround. She was extremely nervous almost to the point of aggression & is now the most confident laid back dog that you could ever meet.

n=1
Again, your statistical soundness is not great here. Perhaps some peer-reviewed published research on the topic would strengthen your argument?
Your dog's behaviour has changed, presumably due to a change in reinforcement history. I think you might be getting "temperament" mixed up with "behavioural traits".
I'm not sure if you're familiar with the scientific measures of temperament (extravert/introvert, neurotic, open, conscientious etc), as opposed to the "layman's" understanding of it, but I'm having difficulty finding any recent research to suggest that temperament is changeable?
On the contrary, the most up-to-date researchers continue to use the standard temperament tests across the species, so I'm not too sure you're correct.
A dog may learn to modify it's behaviour from aggressive to non-aggressive in a given circumstance. To an onlooker using the "layman's" interpretation of "temperament", it might appear to have changed it's "temperament", from aggressive to non-aggressive, but it has not. It has changed it’s behaviour.
"Aggressive" is not a temperament type. "Nervous" is not a temperament type. "Calm" is not a temperament type. They are behaviours which may present within any temperament. The dog's temperament is still the same as it was the day it was born (i.e. extravert, introvert etc), it has just learned to change it's behaviour to get a better deal out of life.

In any case, for your one dog, again I'll raise you many, many more that have not changed one iota in calmness or aggression levels after spaying, other than some exceptions where the female became more aggressive probably due to early spaying when she was already showing aggressive tendencies.
I deal with different dogs every single day of my life, male, female, neutered and not. So again, I'll go with my more statistically sound experience.

Much of the theory is still based in the old ideas of packs & dominance.

Which theory? You've lost me a bit here? I'm not sure which theory you're referring to?

Your support for dog wardens in a previous post & your claim that temperament cannot be altered are linked in that the "establishment" of wardens. pounds etc believe it & kill many dogs because of this misapprehension.

Goodness gracious me, that's a very big paintbrush you've got yourself there!
I'm wondering where I have "supported" dog wardens on this forum?
As it happens, I have little problem with dog wardens who treat everyone fairly, and yes, they do indeed exist. Whilst there are many incidents where dog wardens are quite justified in seizing an aggressive dog, they will in fact listen to both sides of the story and allow the owner to keep their dog if the owner commits to making sure certain situations can no longer arise. This allows the owner to avoid prosecution and having their dog euthanased if, for instance, there was a genuine one-off incident as a result of unforeseeable circumstances.
You do seem very fond of making sweeping statements about "the establishment". I personally don't like to criticise wardens, or anyone, who adopt a fair attitude, there are more of them out there than you seem to have experienced.

And let me make something abundantly clear to you, you have absolutely no idea the roles I play both in rescuing dogs in this country and preventing them from having to be euthanased, so I'd suggest you be tremendously careful with such sweeping statements.

Also people mistakenly choose a breed based on so called temperament & condemn breeds for the same reasons. Dogs are individuals.

"people" may do. But again you're mixing up "temperament" with "common behavioural traits associated with x, y, z breed of dog".

Discodog

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I have no desire to drag a thread about collars so off topic.

If there are people out there who believe that they can categorise dogs into introvert/extrovert etc then I am worried. It's bad enough to do with humans let alone dogs.

I have no idea concerning your knowledge or your role you play in saving dogs. Here you are just a new poster with no information on your profile page.

DBB

If there are people out there who believe that they can categorise dogs into introvert/extrovert etc then I am worried. It's bad enough to do with humans let alone dogs

Yes, they're called scientists.
Behavioural scientists, psychologists, psychiatrists, counsellors, physicians etc.
It is this knowledge, categorisation and research that has resulted in us really getting a grasp on the behaviour of humans, dogs, horses, lobsters, goldfish etc etc
The application of this research is presented in plain english to clients, but one's lack of knowledge about the underlying research does not mean it doesn't exist.

I have no idea concerning your knowledge or your role you play in saving dogs. Here you are just a new poster with no information on your profile page

Surely everyone here should be considered knowledgeable in what they post about until they prove otherwise? :rolleyes:

Discodog

Can you recommend a Goldfish counsellor ?

I have a science degree & spent a few years in research. If there were one theory then you might have a point but especially in animal behaviour, there are hundreds.

Boards mirrors society. People tend to be judged by the tone of their posts just as much by their content. Are you really suggesting that everyone who posts anonymously on an internet forum should assumed to be knowledgeable ? People post opinions & others choose to believe them or not. You will notice that very, very few people here ever claim to be experts.

DBB

Can you recommend a Goldfish counsellor ?

As it happens, yes I can

If there were one theory then you might have a point but especially in animal behaviour, there are hundreds.

I'm not talking about theories. I'm talking about peer-accepted methodologies and peer-accepted terminologies that are being used across the world.
If there was just one theory, there's be no need for research. Happily, this is not the case.

Are you really suggesting that everyone who posts anonymously on an internet forum should assumed to be knowledgeable ?

Again, you have misinterpreted me. I said, everyone should be considered knowledgeable until they prove otherwise.
If there was no PM system on this board, then it would be anonymous.

You will notice that very, very few people here ever claim to be experts.

So, what if a person is?:)

Discodog

DBB wrote: »

If there was no PM system on this board, then it would be anonymous.

Cherry Blossom

Can we all stick to the topic of the thread please, if anyone wants to discuss any so called scientific theories, I suggest you start a thread for the purpose.

Thanks!