Collars

Mr. Manager

Stemming from the e-collar debate/argument going on in another thread I just wanted to get some peoples opinions on the following products.

I for one have difficulty in recall. When at home they obey my every command but once outside and off the lead, nothing.

Collar 1

Collar 2

I personally think that the 2nd one seems quite useful but would be interested in hearing pro's/con's from other posters

andreac

How does a spray collar help with recall, i dont get it??

Actually i dont know how either would help with recall.

Justask

no collar would work with mine they have selective hearing :rolleyes:

Cant see how a collar would work though

Mr. Manager

I'm under the impression that these collars are used to correct behavior, ie, not listening to commands.

Call the dog, no response, emit sound

Repeat

andreac

Nope, they dont work in that way, the work in a way that you want to distract them from doing something, but not for recall.

Put it this way, if you were running around and someone called you, and something sprayed in your face at the same time they called you, would you want to go running back to that person who called you? i cerainly wouldnt.

boomerang

OP there's a big difference between recall in the home, and recall in the great outdoors, where there are tons of distractions. It's like expecting them to run before they can walk. The answer is to build in the distractions gradually. So say if you start practising in the kitchen, then you could move to working on it in the garden, and then when out on walks. Set them up for success. A long training line (Halti do them) is a great tool to use in situations where you'd like them off the lead, but need to work on their recall first. Remember as well there is nothing intrinsically rewarding for a dog about returning to an owner - you have to reward them, be it with a treat, toy or praise, if they are at the point where praise is enough. I find it great to practice when we are out on walks - I'll get them to check in with me occasionally and then let them ramble again.

piperh

No i can't see how these would work.

If you have 2 or more dogs then i would suggest teaching recall by keeping one of them on the lead and calling the other back every so often and give it treat when it returns. The loose dog will return to the other dog if not to you and when it does reward it. Take it in turns to let each one off the lead and eventually they will get that coming back to you is rewarding. Try not to only call them back to put the lead on as this will discourage them as they'll soon clock on that when they return to you walk/play time is over.

ISDW

I have huskies, and they are known for the non-existent recall, so unfortunately they are never let off lead in an unenclosed space. It is a real shame as I love to see them run, but thats why I work them in harness.

I actually think that with any dog, if you haven't got excellent recall then you shouldn't let them off the lead.

tk123

boomerang wrote: »

OP there's a big difference between recall in the home, and recall in the great outdoors, where there are tons of distractions. It's like expecting them to run before they can walk. The answer is to build in the distractions gradually. So say if you start practising in the kitchen, then you could move to working on it in the garden, and then when out on walks. Set them up for success. A long training line (Halti do them) is a great tool to use in situations where you'd like them off the lead, but need to work on their recall first. Remember as well there is nothing intrinsically rewarding for a dog about returning to an owner - you have to reward them, be it with a treat, toy or praise, if they are at the point where praise is enough. I find it great to practice when we are out on walks - I'll get them to check in with me occasionally and then let them ramble again.

+1 this is exactly what we did. My guy was on lead only excercise for 13 weeks so once he was allowed off his recall was gone out the window so we had to start again. You need to call them back all the time - at home, in the garden and when you're out on walks on their normal leads let them take the slack and call them back. It works best to use a phrase instead of their name - say the dog does something bold like eat your wallet you might say eg BAILEY NOOOOOO!?!?? so they can associate their name with being told off. You need to practice so that the phrase (we use come here) means jackpot treats/fav toy/praise. Once they associate the phrase with good things then get the long lead eg in the park, let them away from you and call them back - if they ignore pull them in. I waited until quieter times in the park to practice with the long line. When he's off lead now I call him back, treat and send him off again. We're at the stage now where he charges back to me and sits for the treat . I've also trained him to come back to a whistle which is really handy - say if it's windy or they're a bit further away eg at the beach and you don't want to have to shout all over the place!

Is there anywhere near you that does obedience classes OP - you could pay for classes with the price of one of the collars!

DBB

Cereal Rapist wrote: »

Stemming from the e-collar debate/argument going on in another thread I just wanted to get some peoples opinions on the following products.

I for one have difficulty in recall. When at home they obey my every command but once outside and off the lead, nothing.

Collar 1

Collar 2

I personally think that the 2nd one seems quite useful but would be interested in hearing pro's/con's from other posters

OP, are taking the mick by asking this question? Methinks you're just looking for a reaction.
Luckily, there are people here who clearly know and understand how to train a dog without resorting to harming it in any way, so it'd be great to see you spending time taking their advice than to waste time researching equipment designed to harm your dog.

Discodog

DBB wrote: »

OP, are taking the mick by asking this question? Methinks you're just looking for a reaction.
Luckily, there are people here who clearly know and understand how to train a dog without resorting to harming it in any way, so it'd be great to see you spending time taking their advice than to waste time researching equipment designed to harm your dog.

I think that you are being unnecessarily unpleasant to the OP who has come here seeking genuine advice. If a site like Zooplus & countless pet shops sell these things why wouldn't someone wonder if they are a solution.

OP I had a lot of grief with recall with one of mine as posters here know
He is now getting better & better so the key is constituency & patience. If you really hit problems then either take the dog to a class or contact a trainer.

TooManyDogs

The second collar (vibrating one) could work but to be honest it'd be cheaper just to go back to basics with recall training. Like boomerang said the way to do it is to build up gradually to getting a successful recall outside and if he stops paying attention you go back a step, so house, back garden, front garden, street outside your house, etc, etc.

I'm actually searching for a vibrating collar small enough for my deaf JRT as a recall tool, the problem that I have is that if she isn't looking at me she can't see me calling her. A vibrating collar is standard for most deaf dog owners. You train them to it like you would a clicker, they feel a vibration then treat, and build it up until they associate the vibration with good things from you.

Mr. Manager

DBB wrote: »

OP, are taking the mick by asking this question? Methinks you're just looking for a reaction.
Luckily, there are people here who clearly know and understand how to train a dog without resorting to harming it in any way, so it'd be great to see you spending time taking their advice than to waste time researching equipment designed to harm your dog.

Please, and note I've asked nicely, point to where exactly I've stated that I harm my dogs in anyway shape or form? Did you even read the description of the 2 products posted? Obviously not. The collar emits a sound.

So please, get off you high horse and get out of this thread unless you have something constructive or intelligent to post.

ppink

If you are just using the sound part then what benefit does it have over a whistle I wonder.

DBB

I'd suggest the only person on a high horse here is the person telling others to get out of a thread! I wasn't aware you owned this forum!
It's up to me what threads I'll comment on, and with all due respect the only people who I'll bow out of a thread for are the mods, if they see it fit.

I am more than familiar with the products you've posted. I also noted you had thanked one of the pro-collar posters on the other thread, so you've already nailed your colours to the mast when it comes to use of e-collars (this comment is therefore also for the attention of Discodog, who may not be aware of this).
This is why I felt that you were taking the mick, because it seemed to me you had already made up your mind to use an e-collar. You will already have seen how emotive a subject they are, and it seemed to me you might be trying to stir up another debate here.
You haven't said you wanted to harm your dog. I wouldn't expect you to. But you are, in fairness, wanting to use equipment that has been shown to, and is designed to cause distress. You know the drawbacks of using such equipment because you've read the other thread. You've seen the many concerns people have about them, yet you still came on here asking for advice about which one to buy!
There is no replacement for kind, gentle training, rather than resorting to using any item which is going to startle, frighten, shock, or otherwise cause an unpleasant experience for a dog. As I said, there has been great advice given here already to help you train your dog nicely and without unpleasantness for the dog.
If speaking up for positive training, and speaking against the use of e-collars, means I'm on a high-horse, so be it. I can live with that.

Edited to add: Cereal Rapist, please keep your smart-alec PMs to yourself. This is a discussion forum. You might describe your public posts as "polite": the same can't be said for your Private Messages.

Cherry Blossom

Okay calm down everyone. Instead of replying to posts you find offensive and continuing it on by PM. Can folks please just press the report button.

Thanks

AJ

Cherry Blossom

OP, I've also had a lot of trouble with recall with my pup. How old is your dog? Sometimes they just don't have the inclination to be bothered listening to you when they are still young. I know that some things that seem to be working for me now I wouldn't have had a hope with a few months ago. I find whistle training has given the best results but you have to build it up slowly. Start off just around the house and don't even try unless you are positive the dog is going to come. If there are no mistakes eventually it becomes automatic to the point that they just can't help but come to you no matter how much they don't want to (at least I hope so anyway )

I haven't reached this stage but at the minute I have permission to let her run around a barley field (she weighs less than a big rabbit). It's terribly exciting but she doesn't want to get 'lost' at the same time so its working very well at getting her to come when she's in her 'hyper' mood.

The other thing I found great is an actually a flexi lead (or a long lead if your dog is big). She goes from the short lead to the long lead and I do a few recalls before letting her off. When I'm putting her back on the lead so goes on to the flexi lead first so she doesn't go from complete freedom to no freedom and doesn't resent coming back.

Discodog

I make a point of calling back my guy within seconds of letting him off lead. I then reward him so that he "remembers" the drill. The other thing that's useful is to teach a "harsh" "no" or "leave" recall because you will not always be in a position to use the cheery recall. It's good for him to know that if I yell - it doesn't mean that he has done wrong.

The Sweeper

OP, try doing some focus training with your dog.

We've just started agility (and trust me, we're literally worst in the class and I'm not being funny when I say that ). One of the tricks they teach is how to teach your dog to focus on you. Getting your dog to look to you for what happens next is the key to everything - good training, good obedience, good recall.

Eye contact is key - there are training methods that teach you to reward even the most fleeting eye contact the second you get it. Dogs are programmed to watch your body language.

When I'm out with Gus and he's having a bad day, what I really notice is that he absolutely will not look at me. He's at one end of his leash, straining, I'm at the other, and he'll move his body so he doesn't have to look at me. If he doesn't look at me, he doesn't need to pay attention to what I'm asking.

Remote collars won't work for recall. As andreac points out, remote collars are negative reinforcement.

Your dog is off leash. He's sniffing about. You call him. He ignores you. That's because his attention is fixed on the scent. Don't call him when his head is down, that's setting both you and him up for him ignoring your call. Wait until his head is up, then call him.

So now he's looking at you, and you call him, and he doesn't come. This is the point at which it may seem that a correction collar would be a good device - the dog gets a correction for not coming when he's called. However the dog won't see it like that. He's looking at you, you call him, he does nothing, he gets corrected. All it does it make him want to be further away from you because he's been corrected.

What you need is a situation where you call your dog, your dog looks at you, and you give your dog a fabulous reason to come back to you at that moment.

That could be a favourite toy, the offer of a treat - in extreme cases you may find running in the opposite direction waving your hands madly works, or lying down on the ground works - you need to find some reason for the dog to come racing over to you.

In terms of whether the collars would work to distract your dog from a negative behaviour, a lot of training with the 'leave it' command will do the same thing.

My dog behaves badly in the yard with my cats. They practically never get the chance to be out there together, but if he's in the yard and they are too, he'll chase them. They know, and run back indoors, and I don't believe his intention is to savage them, but he'd easily bowl them over and given he's 30kgs and they're 5kgs, he could really hurt them. I've done some training with him outdoors with a short leash and long leash but really, the best option for me is to not allow them out together.

The training we've done, however, has loaned itself to a better result when we're out together. 'Leave it' can apply to anything - don't pick up that grotty thing on the ground, ignore that dog, ignore that cycling child, don't approach that toddler, ignore that person. However 'leave it' works intimately with the focus training.

Focus on me. Leave everything else. Come when you're called. I will give you love, praise, toys, treats, encouragement. Everything positive in your life comes from me - your warm bed, your food, your play, your rubs, your toys - so look only to me for what to do next. That's what focus training is all about.

It sounds like hard work, but you do it every day in every interaction. Nothing in Life is Free - NILF training. No door opens unless you look in my face. No food is given until you sit and look at my face, and when the food is given you ignore it and continue to look at my face until I tell you that you can have it.

I own a stubborn dog, and I don't allow him off-leash when we're out (thankfully I have a large garden and we can play a lot of off-leash running games in that), but I can tell you the focus training and the NILF training works.

Discodog

Totally agree with Sweeper. A dogs nose is too important to be "overruled" by his ears. You have to get the head up & eye contact. Often with my guy he will lift his head & look then I can see him weighing up whether to come back or keep sniffing. The key is that he has to see coming back as the better option.

Also if his head is down & ignoring you then calling him is counter productive because he isn't really listening. So your command just becomes a mumble that he can ignore. It dilutes the command.

The only dilemma that I get is when he initially ignores me but then comes back a couple of minutes later & looks for a reward. It's a balance because he didn't do as he was told but he did come back.

seamus

Without getting into the morals, the problem with any kind of training collar is that you're teaching the dog to react to the collar, not to you. The day that the batteries run out or the dog goes for a swim in the sea and the collar fizzles out, you'll suddenly find yourself with no control over your dog.

Everything the Sweeper says is spot on. It is hard work, but so is everything worthwhile. There are no shortcuts for training dogs any more than there are shortcuts for raising children. Using external training aids can help the training process, but you should be aiming for the point where you can ditch the training aids and control your dog with just your voice and body language.

TooManyDogs

OP What about training your dog to a whistle? A sudden sharp noise can often break the dogs attention on what he's smelling. So if he's ignoring your voice you can use a whistle as another tool. Again train him by whistling and rewarding, then building up a bit of distance.

Mr. Manager

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

OP, I've also had a lot of trouble with recall with my pup. How old is your dog?

I've 2 dogs, one is just gone 4 and the other is just gone 1.

The 1 year old, McClane, is grand on his own. I can walk him without a lead no bother but when I walk the two of them together they have to be on a lead all the time or else they'll just go off on a wander. The 4 year old, Kya, is a handful. She's a 54KG Newfoundland so I don't really want her off the lead tbh. She is quite aggressive towards other female dogs and I feel that no amount of training would ever get her to back away from confrontation.

It would just be nice to be able to walk through the business park with them playing around and not have to worry about either of them going anywhere. I know neither would ever, ever run away. Living in an apartment is tough too as there's no back garden to practice these techniques. In the hunt for a house now though with a nice big back garden.

Mr. Manager

On reading the last few posts, I'll pick up a whistle over the weekend and see how I get on with that.

ISDW

This makes me feel old, but about 20 years ago give or take, I took my first two dogs that I had owned myself to training classes. The instructor advised us to get an old tobacco tin or similar and keep treats in it, then when you want to get the dog's attention, hit a coin against the tin, it would make a metallic noise that the dog would be able to hear, as it would be a different sound to what else was going on around him/her. How times have moved on, I see tins for sale in pet shops now for just that purpose, for quite a lot of money considering what it actually is - but hey, its a modern training device:rolleyes:

But the point is, anything really that makes a distinct sound I think that will just grab the dog's attention could work. Whistles are good, except maybe if you're walking in a park with lots of other dogs, other owners may be whistling, or it could even be lost in bird song.

Depends how much of a fool you don't mind making of yourself I guess, a duck caller might be a good noise, or a kids toy that makes a weird noise. It needs to be something small that is easily carried.

tk123

Cereal Rapist wrote: »

On reading the last few posts, I'll pick up a whistle over the weekend and see how I get on with that.

I found the black acme type one best for my guy like this. I had a sliver clix one I got in the pet shop and it wasn't as good. When I blow it in the park every dog looks around like :eek: whaaaaa? :pac::pac:

Discodog

Cereal Rapist wrote: »

She's a 54KG Newfoundland so I don't really want her off the lead tbh. She is quite aggressive towards other female dogs and I feel that no amount of training would ever get her to back away from confrontation.

Is she neutered ? A good trainer could work wonders. Take a look here:

http://www.dogtrainingireland.ie/home.php

They performed wonders with a friend's GSD that hated men !

Cherry Blossom

tk123 wrote: »

I found the black acme type one best for my guy like this. I had a sliver clix one I got in the pet shop and it wasn't as good. When I blow it in the park every dog looks around like :eek: whaaaaa? :pac::pac:

I gave up on those, for some reason they all screw apart, lost the bottom half of three of them in a week, just from me wearing them round my neck and walking around the place they gradually unscrewed them selves.

Cherry Blossom

Cereal Rapist wrote: »

I've 2 dogs, one is just gone 4 and the other is just gone 1.

The 1 year old, McClane, is grand on his own. I can walk him without a lead no bother but when I walk the two of them together they have to be on a lead all the time or else they'll just go off on a wander.

Have you tried letting them off the lead one at a time?

Cereal Rapist wrote: »

The 4 year old, Kya, is a handful. She's a 54KG Newfoundland so I don't really want her off the lead tbh. She is quite aggressive towards other female dogs and I feel that no amount of training would ever get her to back away from confrontation.

It would just be nice to be able to walk through the business park with them playing around and not have to worry about either of them going anywhere. I know neither would ever, ever run away. Living in an apartment is tough too as there's no back garden to practice these techniques. In the hunt for a house now though with a nice big back garden.

You should probably try to get her used to other females tbh. If you have a friend or family member with another female that's well adjusted it might be an idea to organise to walk them together without the pup there and take it from there slowly. Eventually letting them off the lead somewhere secure when they are comfortable with each others company. If you do this with a few different dogs when she's comfortable with each one you should start to notice a difference in her.

Discodog

The problem with using a whistle is when you forget it. Even if you can't whistle there are ways of making a distinctive noise - like banging two Flexi leads together.

Recall can never be 100% guaranteed perfect. I can remember being at a sheepdog trial when, the highly tipped winner, suddenly decided to ignore every command despite the shepherd going so red that we thought he was about to have a heart attack !

easyeason3

Cereal Rapist wrote: »

I've 2 dogs, one is just gone 4 and the other is just gone 1.

The 1 year old, McClane, is grand on his own. I can walk him without a lead no bother but when I walk the two of them together they have to be on a lead all the time or else they'll just go off on a wander. The 4 year old, Kya, is a handful. She's a 54KG Newfoundland so I don't really want her off the lead tbh. She is quite aggressive towards other female dogs and I feel that no amount of training would ever get her to back away from confrontation.

It would just be nice to be able to walk through the business park with them playing around and not have to worry about either of them going anywhere. I know neither would ever, ever run away. Living in an apartment is tough too as there's no back garden to practice these techniques. In the hunt for a house now though with a nice big back garden.

How in the name of God do manage with a 54kg Newfoundland in an apartment?
That takes some work!

When you do find the house with a big back garden you or the newfie won't know what hit ye!

How often is she walked or how many times a day is she brought out?

piperh

Discodog wrote: »

Recall can never be 100% guaranteed perfect. I can remember being at a sheepdog trial when, the highly tipped winner, suddenly decided to ignore every command despite the shepherd going so red that we thought he was about to have a heart attack !

I had to smile when i read that, i know it shouldn't but it always makes me feel better to know even the experts and their dogs have bad days as well. ;)

carwash_2006

For anybody with issues with recall, or any training issues with dogs that are considered less trainable. Breeds that like to think for themselves and whatnot. I cannot recommend this book highly enough, "When Pigs Fly" by J Killion.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/When-Pigs-Fly-Training-Impossible/dp/1929242441/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1311298215&sr=1-1

Fantastic book with wonderful step by step instructions for training the more stubborn animals. Fantastic section on perfecting recall in even the most stubborn dogs.

ISDW, you might be surprised, you might even persuade some of your lot to have recall if you have time. My aunt has managed to instill amazing recall into her wee lurcher who was one of the most independent animals she ever laid eyes on, using the techniques in the book. In her first year she really despaired of ever doing such a thing, but you wouldn't imagine it now. It does take time and dedication though.

Discodog

carwash_2006 wrote: »

ISDW, you might be surprised, you might even persuade some of your lot to have recall if you have time.

ISDW has loads of spare time

I suspect that some of her pack would be like my Greyhound. She will recall most of the time but I could never rely on it & her chase/prey drive could make it a potentially serious situation.

ISDW

carwash_2006 wrote: »

For anybody with issues with recall, or any training issues with dogs that are considered less trainable. Breeds that like to think for themselves and whatnot. I cannot recommend this book highly enough, "When Pigs Fly" by J Killion.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/When-Pigs-Fly-Training-Impossible/dp/1929242441/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1311298215&sr=1-1

Fantastic book with wonderful step by step instructions for training the more stubborn animals. Fantastic section on perfecting recall in even the most stubborn dogs.

ISDW, you might be surprised, you might even persuade some of your lot to have recall if you have time. My aunt has managed to instill amazing recall into her wee lurcher who was one of the most independent animals she ever laid eyes on, using the techniques in the book. In her first year she really despaired of ever doing such a thing, but you wouldn't imagine it now. It does take time and dedication though.

I do train recall, in our big field and the dogs all come back to me, because they know they are in an enclosed field. Every single husky breed club and welfare organisation around the world gives the same advice never to let them off lead except in an unenclosed area. They used to be set free in the summer months to look after themselves by the Chukchi people, and it is so hard wired into them, that it doesn't matter what treats or methods you use, they don't work on the great majority of the breed. I'm not saying some huskies can't be trained to recall outside of an enclosed area, but they are very rare and wondrous dogs:D I'm also not saying that my dogs wouldn't come back to me 8 out of 10 times if they slipped their lead or something happened, but its that 2 out of 10 that I won't take any chances with. Their prey drive is too high, and their ability to cover miles in a couple of minutes is too dangerous.

Discodog wrote: »

ISDW has loads of spare time

I suspect that some of her pack would be like my Greyhound. She will recall most of the time but I could never rely on it & her chase/prey drive could make it a potentially serious situation.

Yeah, my alpha boy is actually an incredibly obedient dog, but he caught a hedgehog in our field yesterday:( Nothing would get through to him, he was out with 3 other dogs, so obviously he wasn't going to drop it when they were around, I put them away, went back out and it still took another 20 minutes before I got him away from the hedgehog, and that was only by throwing something near him, he was distracted for a second and I threw a paddling pool upside down over the hedgehog. It survived as well, it was just curled up in a ball, and drove Diesel mad cos he couldn't get at it. Yet put that dog in harness and he will run past other dogs, rabbits, we've even gone past deer to the side of the trail, but off lead, totally different situation. I used to walk him off lead when he was a pup, and he would come back for his treat, take it then dart off again before I could catch him, if I tried to catch his collar before giving him the treat, he decided it wasn't that important to him, and off he'd go, even his favourite liver cake. Took him to obedience classes, and he was brilliant, it was inside, and he was totally focused on everything he had to do. It is just that prey drive, it kicks in, and nothing any human can do will over-ride it.

carwash_2006

Don't get me wrong ISDW, I wasn't at all suggesting that yours don't have recall or that you don't train them

Was actually meant as a joke, I know exactly about not being able to risk the prey drive, my wee fella has excellent recall and yet I will still only let him off the lead on the beach, preferably without other dogs present due to his extremely high prey drive and it being the one place where he can't disappear after something small and furry. That'll teach me to post at silly hours of the morning

ISDW

carwash_2006 wrote: »

Don't get me wrong ISDW, I wasn't at all suggesting that yours don't have recall or that you don't train them

Was actually meant as a joke, I know exactly about not being able to risk the prey drive, my wee fella has excellent recall and yet I will still only let him off the lead on the beach, preferably without other dogs present due to his extremely high prey drive and it being the one place where he can't disappear after something small and furry. That'll teach me to post at silly hours of the morning

Ah no offence taken, I know you know your stuff,:D unfortunately though I hear constantly from people who have got a husky and didn't realise it can't be let off lead etc, and are wondering why their dog is missing, or has been knocked down. I think its such a shame, I love seeing them run free, we're lucky to have our field, but so many of them don't get that chance. Opens up a whole other debate I think on whether all breeds of dogs should be kept as pets or not. Hmmm, wonder how heated that would get on here.;)

carwash_2006

Totally agree with you on that one. I had a discussion about it with a Patterdale breeder once and he certainly felt that they are really not suitable as pet dog for the majority of owners. If not stimulated and trained well enough they become so unruly and can do serious damage in the wrong circumstances. Ends up not fair on the dogs or other people. I can well imagine a few other breeds being similar and I think sometimes people don't listen to the people that really know the breeds on these matters.

Sorry to go off topic there mods.

Mr. Manager

Discodog wrote: »

Is she neutered ? A good trainer could work wonders. Take a look here:

http://www.dogtrainingireland.ie/home.php

They performed wonders with a friend's GSD that hated men !

Yea we got the Newfie neutered about 5 weeks ago. Didn't want our puppy getting at her and having a litter. Also figured it might take a bit of the edge off of her, no dice though

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

Have you tried letting them off the lead one at a time?

Haven't done that as once one of them is off the lead the other gets extremely excited and agitated knowing that they're about to be let off any minute. Will give it a go next time I'm in the business park.

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

You should probably try to get her used to other females tbh. If you have a friend or family member with another female that's well adjusted it might be an idea to organise to walk them together without the pup there and take it from there slowly. Eventually letting them off the lead somewhere secure when they are comfortable with each others company. If you do this with a few different dogs when she's comfortable with each one you should start to notice a difference in her.

Tried this with my parents collie but she is extremely protective of her property and also afraid of big dogs so with that combo it didn't go so well. I have been speaking with my parents in the hopes that I can use their back garden and dog to try and socialise the Newfie a bit better. The garden is huge so it would be really helpful for practicing recall

easyeason3 wrote: »

How in the name of God do manage with a 54kg Newfoundland in an apartment?
That takes some work!

The only problem with the apartment is not having a garden to let them go bananas, other than that, they're happy with it. Have 2 balconies that they chill out on after a nice long walk.

easyeason3 wrote: »

How often is she walked or how many times a day is she brought out?

Depending on myself and the OH's working arrangement. They'll get a minimum of 3 walks a day, one of them being a longer (hour +) walk. When I've a day off I'll take them to the local business park to chase rabbits and tire them out. When they're pooped, they listen to my every word!

Discodog

Cereal Rapist wrote: »

Yea we got the Newfie neutered about 5 weeks ago. Didn't want our puppy getting at her and having a litter. Also figured it might take a bit of the edge off of her, no dice though

Neutering won't work instantly. I would get some behaviourist help. She is a big dog & it's much better to get her temperament sorted.

tk123

Teehee OP I thought of you earlier when i saw this - a walkie talkie collar!! :pac: http://thetrailersbay.com/watch.php?type=youtube&v=AftWvTBWte0

DBB

Discodog wrote: »

Neutering won't work instantly. I would get some behaviourist help. She is a big dog & it's much better to get her temperament sorted.

Neutering of a female tends not to bring about much change in general behaviour, and tends not to have the same calming effect it has in males.
Neutering has a positive effect on male dog behaviour in about 90% of cases.
Finally, temperament cannot be changed. Behaviour can, but temperament can't.

Discodog

DBB wrote: »

Neutering of a female tends not to bring about much change in general behaviour, and tends not to have the same calming effect it has in males.
Neutering has a positive effect on male dog behaviour in about 90% of cases.
Finally, temperament cannot be changed. Behaviour can, but temperament can't.

Over the years I have noticed huge changes with female neutering. My two girls were prone to tiffs - haven't had one since neutering. Hormones & hormonal balance play a huge part in female behaviour.

Sorry but the idea of a fixed temperament is very out dated. I personally have a dog that made a 180 degree turnaround. She was extremely nervous almost to the point of aggression & is now the most confident laid back dog that you could ever meet. Much of the theory is still based in the old ideas of packs & dominance.

Your support for dog wardens in a previous post & your claim that temperament cannot be altered are linked in that the "establishment" of wardens. pounds etc believe it & kill many dogs because of this misapprehension.

Also people mistakenly choose a breed based on so called temperament & condemn breeds for the same reasons. Dogs are individuals.

DBB

Before I post, apologies to people reading if my post gets a bit jargon-y! but there are some misinterpretation which need to be addressed.

Over the years I have noticed huge changes with female neutering. My two girls were prone to tiffs - haven't had one since neutering. Hormones & hormonal balance play a huge part in female behaviour.

Hmmm... n=2.
For your 2 I'll raise you two dozen who don't stop fighting after neutering. Of course hormones can play a part in behaviour with inter-female aggression (whatever the species), especially when the hormonal period is active around coming into/out of heat, pseudopregnancies etc.
Nevertheless, I'll go along with my more statistically sound figures, because individual exceptions do not really cut it when we're talking about a general population.
In any case, you will notice I said "tend to", not "definitely 100% will"
You might already have read in another post of mine that early spaying may make an aggressive female worse... but maybe you missed that as it doesn't suit your argument?

Sorry but the idea of a fixed temperament is very out dated

Is it? Can you show me evidence for this please, I'd be very interested to see it? Please note, I don't want any links to internet sites, unless they are direct links to published research papers please.

I personally have a dog that made a 180 degree turnaround. She was extremely nervous almost to the point of aggression & is now the most confident laid back dog that you could ever meet.

n=1
Again, your statistical soundness is not great here. Perhaps some peer-reviewed published research on the topic would strengthen your argument?
Your dog's behaviour has changed, presumably due to a change in reinforcement history. I think you might be getting "temperament" mixed up with "behavioural traits".
I'm not sure if you're familiar with the scientific measures of temperament (extravert/introvert, neurotic, open, conscientious etc), as opposed to the "layman's" understanding of it, but I'm having difficulty finding any recent research to suggest that temperament is changeable?
On the contrary, the most up-to-date researchers continue to use the standard temperament tests across the species, so I'm not too sure you're correct.
A dog may learn to modify it's behaviour from aggressive to non-aggressive in a given circumstance. To an onlooker using the "layman's" interpretation of "temperament", it might appear to have changed it's "temperament", from aggressive to non-aggressive, but it has not. It has changed it’s behaviour.
"Aggressive" is not a temperament type. "Nervous" is not a temperament type. "Calm" is not a temperament type. They are behaviours which may present within any temperament. The dog's temperament is still the same as it was the day it was born (i.e. extravert, introvert etc), it has just learned to change it's behaviour to get a better deal out of life.

In any case, for your one dog, again I'll raise you many, many more that have not changed one iota in calmness or aggression levels after spaying, other than some exceptions where the female became more aggressive probably due to early spaying when she was already showing aggressive tendencies.
I deal with different dogs every single day of my life, male, female, neutered and not. So again, I'll go with my more statistically sound experience.

Much of the theory is still based in the old ideas of packs & dominance.

Which theory? You've lost me a bit here? I'm not sure which theory you're referring to?

Your support for dog wardens in a previous post & your claim that temperament cannot be altered are linked in that the "establishment" of wardens. pounds etc believe it & kill many dogs because of this misapprehension.

Goodness gracious me, that's a very big paintbrush you've got yourself there!
I'm wondering where I have "supported" dog wardens on this forum?
As it happens, I have little problem with dog wardens who treat everyone fairly, and yes, they do indeed exist. Whilst there are many incidents where dog wardens are quite justified in seizing an aggressive dog, they will in fact listen to both sides of the story and allow the owner to keep their dog if the owner commits to making sure certain situations can no longer arise. This allows the owner to avoid prosecution and having their dog euthanased if, for instance, there was a genuine one-off incident as a result of unforeseeable circumstances.
You do seem very fond of making sweeping statements about "the establishment". I personally don't like to criticise wardens, or anyone, who adopt a fair attitude, there are more of them out there than you seem to have experienced.

And let me make something abundantly clear to you, you have absolutely no idea the roles I play both in rescuing dogs in this country and preventing them from having to be euthanased, so I'd suggest you be tremendously careful with such sweeping statements.

Also people mistakenly choose a breed based on so called temperament & condemn breeds for the same reasons. Dogs are individuals.

"people" may do. But again you're mixing up "temperament" with "common behavioural traits associated with x, y, z breed of dog".

Discodog

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I have no desire to drag a thread about collars so off topic.

If there are people out there who believe that they can categorise dogs into introvert/extrovert etc then I am worried. It's bad enough to do with humans let alone dogs.

I have no idea concerning your knowledge or your role you play in saving dogs. Here you are just a new poster with no information on your profile page.

DBB

If there are people out there who believe that they can categorise dogs into introvert/extrovert etc then I am worried. It's bad enough to do with humans let alone dogs

Yes, they're called scientists.
Behavioural scientists, psychologists, psychiatrists, counsellors, physicians etc.
It is this knowledge, categorisation and research that has resulted in us really getting a grasp on the behaviour of humans, dogs, horses, lobsters, goldfish etc etc
The application of this research is presented in plain english to clients, but one's lack of knowledge about the underlying research does not mean it doesn't exist.

I have no idea concerning your knowledge or your role you play in saving dogs. Here you are just a new poster with no information on your profile page

Surely everyone here should be considered knowledgeable in what they post about until they prove otherwise? :rolleyes:

Discodog

Can you recommend a Goldfish counsellor ?

I have a science degree & spent a few years in research. If there were one theory then you might have a point but especially in animal behaviour, there are hundreds.

Boards mirrors society. People tend to be judged by the tone of their posts just as much by their content. Are you really suggesting that everyone who posts anonymously on an internet forum should assumed to be knowledgeable ? People post opinions & others choose to believe them or not. You will notice that very, very few people here ever claim to be experts.

DBB

Can you recommend a Goldfish counsellor ?

As it happens, yes I can

If there were one theory then you might have a point but especially in animal behaviour, there are hundreds.

I'm not talking about theories. I'm talking about peer-accepted methodologies and peer-accepted terminologies that are being used across the world.
If there was just one theory, there's be no need for research. Happily, this is not the case.

Are you really suggesting that everyone who posts anonymously on an internet forum should assumed to be knowledgeable ?

Again, you have misinterpreted me. I said, everyone should be considered knowledgeable until they prove otherwise.
If there was no PM system on this board, then it would be anonymous.

You will notice that very, very few people here ever claim to be experts.

So, what if a person is?:)

Discodog

DBB wrote: »

If there was no PM system on this board, then it would be anonymous.

Cherry Blossom

Can we all stick to the topic of the thread please, if anyone wants to discuss any so called scientific theories, I suggest you start a thread for the purpose.

Thanks!