Collars

Mr. Manager

Stemming from the e-collar debate/argument going on in another thread I just wanted to get some peoples opinions on the following products.

I for one have difficulty in recall. When at home they obey my every command but once outside and off the lead, nothing.

Collar 1

Collar 2

I personally think that the 2nd one seems quite useful but would be interested in hearing pro's/con's from other posters

andreac

How does a spray collar help with recall, i dont get it??

Actually i dont know how either would help with recall.

Justask

no collar would work with mine they have selective hearing :rolleyes:

Cant see how a collar would work though

Mr. Manager

I'm under the impression that these collars are used to correct behavior, ie, not listening to commands.

Call the dog, no response, emit sound

Repeat

andreac

Nope, they dont work in that way, the work in a way that you want to distract them from doing something, but not for recall.

Put it this way, if you were running around and someone called you, and something sprayed in your face at the same time they called you, would you want to go running back to that person who called you? i cerainly wouldnt.

boomerang

OP there's a big difference between recall in the home, and recall in the great outdoors, where there are tons of distractions. It's like expecting them to run before they can walk. The answer is to build in the distractions gradually. So say if you start practising in the kitchen, then you could move to working on it in the garden, and then when out on walks. Set them up for success. A long training line (Halti do them) is a great tool to use in situations where you'd like them off the lead, but need to work on their recall first. Remember as well there is nothing intrinsically rewarding for a dog about returning to an owner - you have to reward them, be it with a treat, toy or praise, if they are at the point where praise is enough. I find it great to practice when we are out on walks - I'll get them to check in with me occasionally and then let them ramble again.

piperh

No i can't see how these would work.

If you have 2 or more dogs then i would suggest teaching recall by keeping one of them on the lead and calling the other back every so often and give it treat when it returns. The loose dog will return to the other dog if not to you and when it does reward it. Take it in turns to let each one off the lead and eventually they will get that coming back to you is rewarding. Try not to only call them back to put the lead on as this will discourage them as they'll soon clock on that when they return to you walk/play time is over.

ISDW

I have huskies, and they are known for the non-existent recall, so unfortunately they are never let off lead in an unenclosed space. It is a real shame as I love to see them run, but thats why I work them in harness.

I actually think that with any dog, if you haven't got excellent recall then you shouldn't let them off the lead.

tk123

boomerang wrote: »

OP there's a big difference between recall in the home, and recall in the great outdoors, where there are tons of distractions. It's like expecting them to run before they can walk. The answer is to build in the distractions gradually. So say if you start practising in the kitchen, then you could move to working on it in the garden, and then when out on walks. Set them up for success. A long training line (Halti do them) is a great tool to use in situations where you'd like them off the lead, but need to work on their recall first. Remember as well there is nothing intrinsically rewarding for a dog about returning to an owner - you have to reward them, be it with a treat, toy or praise, if they are at the point where praise is enough. I find it great to practice when we are out on walks - I'll get them to check in with me occasionally and then let them ramble again.

+1 this is exactly what we did. My guy was on lead only excercise for 13 weeks so once he was allowed off his recall was gone out the window so we had to start again. You need to call them back all the time - at home, in the garden and when you're out on walks on their normal leads let them take the slack and call them back. It works best to use a phrase instead of their name - say the dog does something bold like eat your wallet you might say eg BAILEY NOOOOOO!?!?? so they can associate their name with being told off. You need to practice so that the phrase (we use come here) means jackpot treats/fav toy/praise. Once they associate the phrase with good things then get the long lead eg in the park, let them away from you and call them back - if they ignore pull them in. I waited until quieter times in the park to practice with the long line. When he's off lead now I call him back, treat and send him off again. We're at the stage now where he charges back to me and sits for the treat . I've also trained him to come back to a whistle which is really handy - say if it's windy or they're a bit further away eg at the beach and you don't want to have to shout all over the place!

Is there anywhere near you that does obedience classes OP - you could pay for classes with the price of one of the collars!

DBB

Cereal Rapist wrote: »

Stemming from the e-collar debate/argument going on in another thread I just wanted to get some peoples opinions on the following products.

I for one have difficulty in recall. When at home they obey my every command but once outside and off the lead, nothing.

Collar 1

Collar 2

I personally think that the 2nd one seems quite useful but would be interested in hearing pro's/con's from other posters

OP, are taking the mick by asking this question? Methinks you're just looking for a reaction.
Luckily, there are people here who clearly know and understand how to train a dog without resorting to harming it in any way, so it'd be great to see you spending time taking their advice than to waste time researching equipment designed to harm your dog.

Discodog

DBB wrote: »

OP, are taking the mick by asking this question? Methinks you're just looking for a reaction.
Luckily, there are people here who clearly know and understand how to train a dog without resorting to harming it in any way, so it'd be great to see you spending time taking their advice than to waste time researching equipment designed to harm your dog.

I think that you are being unnecessarily unpleasant to the OP who has come here seeking genuine advice. If a site like Zooplus & countless pet shops sell these things why wouldn't someone wonder if they are a solution.

OP I had a lot of grief with recall with one of mine as posters here know
He is now getting better & better so the key is constituency & patience. If you really hit problems then either take the dog to a class or contact a trainer.

TooManyDogs

The second collar (vibrating one) could work but to be honest it'd be cheaper just to go back to basics with recall training. Like boomerang said the way to do it is to build up gradually to getting a successful recall outside and if he stops paying attention you go back a step, so house, back garden, front garden, street outside your house, etc, etc.

I'm actually searching for a vibrating collar small enough for my deaf JRT as a recall tool, the problem that I have is that if she isn't looking at me she can't see me calling her. A vibrating collar is standard for most deaf dog owners. You train them to it like you would a clicker, they feel a vibration then treat, and build it up until they associate the vibration with good things from you.

Mr. Manager

DBB wrote: »

OP, are taking the mick by asking this question? Methinks you're just looking for a reaction.
Luckily, there are people here who clearly know and understand how to train a dog without resorting to harming it in any way, so it'd be great to see you spending time taking their advice than to waste time researching equipment designed to harm your dog.

Please, and note I've asked nicely, point to where exactly I've stated that I harm my dogs in anyway shape or form? Did you even read the description of the 2 products posted? Obviously not. The collar emits a sound.

So please, get off you high horse and get out of this thread unless you have something constructive or intelligent to post.

ppink

If you are just using the sound part then what benefit does it have over a whistle I wonder.

DBB

I'd suggest the only person on a high horse here is the person telling others to get out of a thread! I wasn't aware you owned this forum!
It's up to me what threads I'll comment on, and with all due respect the only people who I'll bow out of a thread for are the mods, if they see it fit.

I am more than familiar with the products you've posted. I also noted you had thanked one of the pro-collar posters on the other thread, so you've already nailed your colours to the mast when it comes to use of e-collars (this comment is therefore also for the attention of Discodog, who may not be aware of this).
This is why I felt that you were taking the mick, because it seemed to me you had already made up your mind to use an e-collar. You will already have seen how emotive a subject they are, and it seemed to me you might be trying to stir up another debate here.
You haven't said you wanted to harm your dog. I wouldn't expect you to. But you are, in fairness, wanting to use equipment that has been shown to, and is designed to cause distress. You know the drawbacks of using such equipment because you've read the other thread. You've seen the many concerns people have about them, yet you still came on here asking for advice about which one to buy!
There is no replacement for kind, gentle training, rather than resorting to using any item which is going to startle, frighten, shock, or otherwise cause an unpleasant experience for a dog. As I said, there has been great advice given here already to help you train your dog nicely and without unpleasantness for the dog.
If speaking up for positive training, and speaking against the use of e-collars, means I'm on a high-horse, so be it. I can live with that.

Edited to add: Cereal Rapist, please keep your smart-alec PMs to yourself. This is a discussion forum. You might describe your public posts as "polite": the same can't be said for your Private Messages.

Cherry Blossom

Okay calm down everyone. Instead of replying to posts you find offensive and continuing it on by PM. Can folks please just press the report button.

Thanks

AJ

Cherry Blossom

OP, I've also had a lot of trouble with recall with my pup. How old is your dog? Sometimes they just don't have the inclination to be bothered listening to you when they are still young. I know that some things that seem to be working for me now I wouldn't have had a hope with a few months ago. I find whistle training has given the best results but you have to build it up slowly. Start off just around the house and don't even try unless you are positive the dog is going to come. If there are no mistakes eventually it becomes automatic to the point that they just can't help but come to you no matter how much they don't want to (at least I hope so anyway )

I haven't reached this stage but at the minute I have permission to let her run around a barley field (she weighs less than a big rabbit). It's terribly exciting but she doesn't want to get 'lost' at the same time so its working very well at getting her to come when she's in her 'hyper' mood.

The other thing I found great is an actually a flexi lead (or a long lead if your dog is big). She goes from the short lead to the long lead and I do a few recalls before letting her off. When I'm putting her back on the lead so goes on to the flexi lead first so she doesn't go from complete freedom to no freedom and doesn't resent coming back.

Discodog

I make a point of calling back my guy within seconds of letting him off lead. I then reward him so that he "remembers" the drill. The other thing that's useful is to teach a "harsh" "no" or "leave" recall because you will not always be in a position to use the cheery recall. It's good for him to know that if I yell - it doesn't mean that he has done wrong.

The Sweeper

OP, try doing some focus training with your dog.

We've just started agility (and trust me, we're literally worst in the class and I'm not being funny when I say that ). One of the tricks they teach is how to teach your dog to focus on you. Getting your dog to look to you for what happens next is the key to everything - good training, good obedience, good recall.

Eye contact is key - there are training methods that teach you to reward even the most fleeting eye contact the second you get it. Dogs are programmed to watch your body language.

When I'm out with Gus and he's having a bad day, what I really notice is that he absolutely will not look at me. He's at one end of his leash, straining, I'm at the other, and he'll move his body so he doesn't have to look at me. If he doesn't look at me, he doesn't need to pay attention to what I'm asking.

Remote collars won't work for recall. As andreac points out, remote collars are negative reinforcement.

Your dog is off leash. He's sniffing about. You call him. He ignores you. That's because his attention is fixed on the scent. Don't call him when his head is down, that's setting both you and him up for him ignoring your call. Wait until his head is up, then call him.

So now he's looking at you, and you call him, and he doesn't come. This is the point at which it may seem that a correction collar would be a good device - the dog gets a correction for not coming when he's called. However the dog won't see it like that. He's looking at you, you call him, he does nothing, he gets corrected. All it does it make him want to be further away from you because he's been corrected.

What you need is a situation where you call your dog, your dog looks at you, and you give your dog a fabulous reason to come back to you at that moment.

That could be a favourite toy, the offer of a treat - in extreme cases you may find running in the opposite direction waving your hands madly works, or lying down on the ground works - you need to find some reason for the dog to come racing over to you.

In terms of whether the collars would work to distract your dog from a negative behaviour, a lot of training with the 'leave it' command will do the same thing.

My dog behaves badly in the yard with my cats. They practically never get the chance to be out there together, but if he's in the yard and they are too, he'll chase them. They know, and run back indoors, and I don't believe his intention is to savage them, but he'd easily bowl them over and given he's 30kgs and they're 5kgs, he could really hurt them. I've done some training with him outdoors with a short leash and long leash but really, the best option for me is to not allow them out together.

The training we've done, however, has loaned itself to a better result when we're out together. 'Leave it' can apply to anything - don't pick up that grotty thing on the ground, ignore that dog, ignore that cycling child, don't approach that toddler, ignore that person. However 'leave it' works intimately with the focus training.

Focus on me. Leave everything else. Come when you're called. I will give you love, praise, toys, treats, encouragement. Everything positive in your life comes from me - your warm bed, your food, your play, your rubs, your toys - so look only to me for what to do next. That's what focus training is all about.

It sounds like hard work, but you do it every day in every interaction. Nothing in Life is Free - NILF training. No door opens unless you look in my face. No food is given until you sit and look at my face, and when the food is given you ignore it and continue to look at my face until I tell you that you can have it.

I own a stubborn dog, and I don't allow him off-leash when we're out (thankfully I have a large garden and we can play a lot of off-leash running games in that), but I can tell you the focus training and the NILF training works.

Discodog

Totally agree with Sweeper. A dogs nose is too important to be "overruled" by his ears. You have to get the head up & eye contact. Often with my guy he will lift his head & look then I can see him weighing up whether to come back or keep sniffing. The key is that he has to see coming back as the better option.

Also if his head is down & ignoring you then calling him is counter productive because he isn't really listening. So your command just becomes a mumble that he can ignore. It dilutes the command.

The only dilemma that I get is when he initially ignores me but then comes back a couple of minutes later & looks for a reward. It's a balance because he didn't do as he was told but he did come back.

seamus

Without getting into the morals, the problem with any kind of training collar is that you're teaching the dog to react to the collar, not to you. The day that the batteries run out or the dog goes for a swim in the sea and the collar fizzles out, you'll suddenly find yourself with no control over your dog.

Everything the Sweeper says is spot on. It is hard work, but so is everything worthwhile. There are no shortcuts for training dogs any more than there are shortcuts for raising children. Using external training aids can help the training process, but you should be aiming for the point where you can ditch the training aids and control your dog with just your voice and body language.

TooManyDogs

OP What about training your dog to a whistle? A sudden sharp noise can often break the dogs attention on what he's smelling. So if he's ignoring your voice you can use a whistle as another tool. Again train him by whistling and rewarding, then building up a bit of distance.

Mr. Manager

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

OP, I've also had a lot of trouble with recall with my pup. How old is your dog?

I've 2 dogs, one is just gone 4 and the other is just gone 1.

The 1 year old, McClane, is grand on his own. I can walk him without a lead no bother but when I walk the two of them together they have to be on a lead all the time or else they'll just go off on a wander. The 4 year old, Kya, is a handful. She's a 54KG Newfoundland so I don't really want her off the lead tbh. She is quite aggressive towards other female dogs and I feel that no amount of training would ever get her to back away from confrontation.

It would just be nice to be able to walk through the business park with them playing around and not have to worry about either of them going anywhere. I know neither would ever, ever run away. Living in an apartment is tough too as there's no back garden to practice these techniques. In the hunt for a house now though with a nice big back garden.

Mr. Manager

On reading the last few posts, I'll pick up a whistle over the weekend and see how I get on with that.

ISDW

This makes me feel old, but about 20 years ago give or take, I took my first two dogs that I had owned myself to training classes. The instructor advised us to get an old tobacco tin or similar and keep treats in it, then when you want to get the dog's attention, hit a coin against the tin, it would make a metallic noise that the dog would be able to hear, as it would be a different sound to what else was going on around him/her. How times have moved on, I see tins for sale in pet shops now for just that purpose, for quite a lot of money considering what it actually is - but hey, its a modern training device:rolleyes:

But the point is, anything really that makes a distinct sound I think that will just grab the dog's attention could work. Whistles are good, except maybe if you're walking in a park with lots of other dogs, other owners may be whistling, or it could even be lost in bird song.

Depends how much of a fool you don't mind making of yourself I guess, a duck caller might be a good noise, or a kids toy that makes a weird noise. It needs to be something small that is easily carried.

tk123

Cereal Rapist wrote: »

On reading the last few posts, I'll pick up a whistle over the weekend and see how I get on with that.

I found the black acme type one best for my guy like this. I had a sliver clix one I got in the pet shop and it wasn't as good. When I blow it in the park every dog looks around like :eek: whaaaaa? :pac::pac:

Discodog

Cereal Rapist wrote: »

She's a 54KG Newfoundland so I don't really want her off the lead tbh. She is quite aggressive towards other female dogs and I feel that no amount of training would ever get her to back away from confrontation.

Is she neutered ? A good trainer could work wonders. Take a look here:

http://www.dogtrainingireland.ie/home.php

They performed wonders with a friend's GSD that hated men !

Cherry Blossom

tk123 wrote: »

I found the black acme type one best for my guy like this. I had a sliver clix one I got in the pet shop and it wasn't as good. When I blow it in the park every dog looks around like :eek: whaaaaa? :pac::pac:

I gave up on those, for some reason they all screw apart, lost the bottom half of three of them in a week, just from me wearing them round my neck and walking around the place they gradually unscrewed them selves.

Cherry Blossom

Cereal Rapist wrote: »

I've 2 dogs, one is just gone 4 and the other is just gone 1.

The 1 year old, McClane, is grand on his own. I can walk him without a lead no bother but when I walk the two of them together they have to be on a lead all the time or else they'll just go off on a wander.

Have you tried letting them off the lead one at a time?

Cereal Rapist wrote: »

The 4 year old, Kya, is a handful. She's a 54KG Newfoundland so I don't really want her off the lead tbh. She is quite aggressive towards other female dogs and I feel that no amount of training would ever get her to back away from confrontation.

It would just be nice to be able to walk through the business park with them playing around and not have to worry about either of them going anywhere. I know neither would ever, ever run away. Living in an apartment is tough too as there's no back garden to practice these techniques. In the hunt for a house now though with a nice big back garden.

You should probably try to get her used to other females tbh. If you have a friend or family member with another female that's well adjusted it might be an idea to organise to walk them together without the pup there and take it from there slowly. Eventually letting them off the lead somewhere secure when they are comfortable with each others company. If you do this with a few different dogs when she's comfortable with each one you should start to notice a difference in her.

Discodog

The problem with using a whistle is when you forget it. Even if you can't whistle there are ways of making a distinctive noise - like banging two Flexi leads together.

Recall can never be 100% guaranteed perfect. I can remember being at a sheepdog trial when, the highly tipped winner, suddenly decided to ignore every command despite the shepherd going so red that we thought he was about to have a heart attack !

easyeason3

Cereal Rapist wrote: »

I've 2 dogs, one is just gone 4 and the other is just gone 1.

The 1 year old, McClane, is grand on his own. I can walk him without a lead no bother but when I walk the two of them together they have to be on a lead all the time or else they'll just go off on a wander. The 4 year old, Kya, is a handful. She's a 54KG Newfoundland so I don't really want her off the lead tbh. She is quite aggressive towards other female dogs and I feel that no amount of training would ever get her to back away from confrontation.

It would just be nice to be able to walk through the business park with them playing around and not have to worry about either of them going anywhere. I know neither would ever, ever run away. Living in an apartment is tough too as there's no back garden to practice these techniques. In the hunt for a house now though with a nice big back garden.

How in the name of God do manage with a 54kg Newfoundland in an apartment?
That takes some work!

When you do find the house with a big back garden you or the newfie won't know what hit ye!

How often is she walked or how many times a day is she brought out?