Enda Kenny has let rip on the Vatican.

Galvasean

philologos wrote: »

Galvasean: He mentioned in the speech that he himself is a practising Catholic, so I don't see in its totality that one could draw that conclusion really.

"offer support" was a bad choice of words on my part. 'Turn a blind eye to the crimes of..." would have been more appropriate.

smokingman

I've re-watched this and re-read the transcript a few times now and it's beginning to sink in. The leader of this "little island state that could" may just be the first first-world leader to have done anything like this. Not bowing in deference to the head medicine man of a cult that consumes a lot of this country and others and specifically of which our leader calls himself a follower, not giving those who administer this religion the carte blanch to do what they want "because they talk to god y'know"....the list goes on....

I'm going to bed a happier man this evening and I can't quite describe why.

Pace2008

Malty_T wrote: »

Is anyone body else looking forward to David Quinn's response to all this?:D

The nation's leader speaking out strongly against a particular religious group?

Echoes of 1930's Germany, for sure.

Dave!

When's Ratzinger due to come to Ireland?

He's gonna have to shake hands with a card carrying <snip> homosexual </snip> and then with someone who effectively called him a narcissist and elitist!

Interesting times ahead!

robindch

Dave! wrote: »

When's Ratzinger due to come to Ireland?

Rumour has it he's canned it:

http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Pope-Benedict-set-to-cancel-Irish-visit-after-harsh-criticism-of-Vatican-125682508.html

Rigor Mortis

Pace2008 wrote: »

The nation's leader speaking out strongly against a particular religious group?

Echoes of 1930's Germany, for sure.

He did not speak out against a particular religious group, he spoke out against the anti social and immoral actions of individuals in positions of authority within a particular religious group. Big difference there.

robindch

Pace2008 wrote: »

Echoes of 1930's Germany, for sure.

No better man than Ratzinger then, eh?

Zillah

Pace2008 wrote: »

The nation's leader speaking out strongly against a particular religious group?

Echoes of 1930's Germany, for sure.

I don't recall Hitler giving out to the Pope about massive abuse cover-ups.

And while we're on the topic, Hitler was rather kind towards the Church, and they suspiciously kind to him.

Galvasean

Pace2008 wrote: »

The nation's leader speaking out strongly against a particular religious group?

Echoes of 1930's Germany, for sure.

Alright, we'll come back in a few years. If all the Catholics are rounded up in concentration camps I owe you a pint.

tayto lover

Enda Kenny's words are no good without actions and as usual he will chicken out from doing anything. Just wait and see. Good speech though but no actions to follow. Full marks to the speech writer.

AhSureTisGrand

I'm willing to give Pace the benefit of the doubt for now and assume he was predicting David Quinn's response...

NecroSteve

Didn't Pius whatever-number-he-was help SS members escape Europe after World War 2?

I'll regard this as I regard all political speeches - hot air until action is forthcoming. A good start would be getting rid of the oppressive theocratic laws that remain in this country. Safe and legal abortion is top of the list, along with easy access to contraception (it's taxed as if it's a luxury item ffs!). I'd like to see the state sever all its links with the Catholic Church in this country. Much as the "abusers" (I despise that euphemism) are a tiny minority within the Church, the organisation as a whole has sheltered child molesters and resisted efforts to take these people to account. If the government stands with this crowd of criminals, they condone this.

Pace2008

Zillah wrote: »

I don't recall Hitler giving out to the Pope about massive abuse cover-ups.

And while we're on the topic, Hitler was rather kind towards the Church, and they suspiciously kind to him.

Rigor Mortis wrote: »

He did not speak out against a particular religious group, he spoke out against the anti social and immoral actions of individuals in positions of authority within a particular religious group. Big difference there.

Take off your atheist hats, get yourself into David "Catholics are being persecuted" Quinn mentality, and read Enda Kenny's speech again.

Here's an earlier worked example on how to go all Godwin on any government motion to remove the Church from its ascendancy.

Galvasean

Damn you Poe's Law, you got me again! :pac:

robindch

Here's a video:

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0720/cloyne.html#video

and the full speech:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/0720/breaking42.html

recedite

smokingman wrote: »

The leader of this "little island state that could" may just be the first first-world leader to have done anything like this.

Well, apart from Henry VIII and a few others, who said "From now on I'm the one making the laws in this country..."


So we now have an unholy trinity operating here; Kenny, Shatter and Ruairí Quinn.
Interesting times alright.
1.There is talk of amalgamating the Vatican and Italian embassies (both in Rome) to save money. That would also show a lack of deference to the "sovereign state" pretence that the Holy See likes to keep up, which is probably why it wasn't done before now.

2.There are moves by Quinn for the handover of schools in lieu of money for unpaid Ryan report compensation costs.

3.Shatter is draughting new laws for the mandatory reporting of current and historical child abuse. This episode where the DPP was unable to prosecute spurred that on.

Blackhorse Slim

Nice words from Enda, but as others have pointed out, meaningless unless followed by actions.

Personally I'd start by amending the Charities Act to remove any reference to "Advancement of Religion" as a charitable purpose, which means the church don't have to pay tax on money received, regardless of what they use it for, charity or not.

Charities Act 2009:
3.—(1) For the purposes of this Act each of the following shall,
subject to subsection (2), be a charitable purpose:
(a) the prevention or relief of poverty or economic hardship;
(b) the advancement of education;
(c) the advancement of religion;
(d) any other purpose that is of benefit to the community.
(2) A purpose shall not be a charitable purpose unless it is of
public benefit.

Any money used for charitable purposes should be tax-free, any money used for other purposes should be taxed.

The RCC has shown that it should be treated just like any other amoral, faceless corporation.

CiaranMT

I'm surprised and disappointed by the number of people who didn't didn't see the sarcasm in pace2008's post.

For shame, A&A!

Galvasean

CiaranMT wrote: »

I'm surprised and disappointed by the number of people who didn't didn't see the sarcasm in pace2008's post.

For shame, A&A!

Based on the many wackos that make it their business to stop by it can be hard to tell the wood from the trees these days.

goingpostal

I believe his words of condemnation are sincere. Regardless of his party or politics, he is expressing the revulsion of any right-thinking human being towards these abominable crimes. These words will be utterly meaningless, however, if he doesn't follow them up with actions which include the following:

1)Transfer EVERY school in the state from church to public ownership immediately. No more teaching children about the Purportedly Magic Rabbi on State-funded school-time from now on. If parents want to teach their kids those myths, or any other myths, they can do it on their own time, and without the financial backing of the State. Our State has absolutely no business promoting and funding one religious belief system over all the others, if we are serious about being a modern, inclusive, egalitarian State.

2)Seize Church assets to pay their 50% share of the 1.36bn euro bill for reparations to the victims of rape, torture and enslavement. Yes, that is 1,360,000,000 euros.

3)Set up a constitutional review committee to remove the special status of the RC Church from our constitution and remove all religious references from that document and create a real separation of church and state. I don't know exactly how this can be done, but it must be done.

4)Enshrine the inalienable human rights of children in our constitution.

5) Make it crystal clear to the Vatican that our civil law trumps their dumb-ass Canon Law EVERY time, when dealing with the indecent assault and rape of children. EVERY TIME. As soon as any member of the clergy has credible suspicion of child-rape or indecent assault, they report this information to the police immediately. No more hush-money, no more dealing with these unspeakable crimes in-house, no more of our State turning a blind eye to this international criminal conspiracy of concealment. Any priest caught raping children must be sacked and handed over to the police, forthwith, anything less is a cover-up.

6) Expel the papal nuncio from Ireland, until we get written guarantees from Ratzinger, that he accepts point 5 without reservation.

7) Withdraw our recognition of the Vatican and the Holy See as a state at the UN immediately. Oh, wait, that means the papal nuncio will be expelled permanently. Good.

8) No State visit for Herr Ratzinger next year or any year or for any of his successors. The Irish taxpayer has paid enough money on behalf of the Vatican and their criminality already. We are broke, we can't afford it. If he wants to visit our country, let the creepy, querulous old virgin pay for the trip himself. Fly Ryanair, Josef, and buy yourself a scratch ticket. You might win enough to buy yourself a brand new pointy hat. Hopefully there will be a few of An Garda Siochana's finest, waiting for him on the runway at Knock, to put the hand-cuffs on him and put him on the next plane to the Hague to face trial for crimes against humanity.

Without these actions, our State will continue to fail in its duty to protect children from these monsters. We have failed for too long already. They haven't gone away, you know?

Delirium

Pace2008 wrote: »

The nation's leader speaking out strongly against a particular religious group?

Echoes of 1930's Germany, for sure.

Hitler was Jewish?

The Mad Hatter

robindch wrote: »

Here's a video:

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0720/cloyne.html#video

An "unprecedented attack"?! He didn't fly a plane into a church. He criticised it, sternly and well.

Bah, damn RTÉ.

robindch

The Mad Hatter wrote: »

An "unprecedented attack"?! He didn't fly a plane into a church. He criticised it, sternly and well. He criticised it, sternly and well.

While that kind of military reference isn't generally accurate, in the specific context of the supine diplomatic responses of most governments to the Vatican, I think the term is fair enough.

Enda's speech is certainly unprecedented in diplomatic terms, while the Vatican's long-term behaviour fills in the grotesque, unbelievable and bizarre bits(*)

Imagines Enda flying the government jet into the dome of St Peters...

(*) anybody remember GUBU?

Logical Fallacy

Good auld Enda, going for the big distraction.

MungBean

If he doesnt expel the Papal Nuncio then the speech is worthless. All well and good to make nice speeches. But if it ends up as just words (like his pre election promises did) we are back to square one.

DoesNotCompute

fatmammycat wrote: »

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2011/07/20/enda-kenny-has-just-delivered-this-speech-in-the-dail/

About time, and well said that man.

Fair play to Enda, he's not brushing all this under the carpet and pretending it never happened, unlike previous govts did. It's a bit weird to see a centre-right christian democratic party having a go at the Vatican, but it's about time the State moved away from the influence of the Church, which has pretty much been dictating policy to the govt with regard to things like divorce and abortion for years.

robindch

Malty_T wrote: »

Is anyone body else looking forward to David Quinn's response to all this?:D

Quinn's response is that Enda has quoted Ratzinger "out of context":

http://www.irishcatholic.ie/site/content/taoiseach-quotes-pope-out-context

Ratzinger's comment first appeared in this lengthy rant about how intolerable Ratzinger finds internal dissent.

DoesNotCompute

goingpostal wrote: »

I believe his words of condemnation are sincere. Regardless of his party or politics, he is expressing the revulsion of any right-thinking human being towards these abominable crimes. These words will be utterly meaningless, however, if he doesn't follow them up with actions which include the following:

1)Transfer EVERY school in the state from church to public ownership immediately. No more teaching children about the Purportedly Magic Rabbi on State-funded school-time from now on. If parents want to teach their kids those myths, or any other myths, they can do it on their own time, and without the financial backing of the State. Our State has absolutely no business promoting and funding one religious belief system over all the others, if we are serious about being a modern, inclusive, egalitarian State.

2)Seize Church assets to pay their 50% share of the 1.36bn euro bill for reparations to the victims of rape, torture and enslavement. Yes, that is 1,360,000,000 euros.

3)Set up a constitutional review committee to remove the special status of the RC Church from our constitution and remove all religious references from that document and create a real separation of church and state. I don't know exactly how this can be done, but it must be done.

4)Enshrine the inalienable human rights of children in our constitution.

5) Make it crystal clear to the Vatican that our civil law trumps their dumb-ass Canon Law EVERY time, when dealing with the indecent assault and rape of children. EVERY TIME. As soon as any member of the clergy has credible suspicion of child-rape or indecent assault, they report this information to the police immediately. No more hush-money, no more dealing with these unspeakable crimes in-house, no more of our State turning a blind eye to this international criminal conspiracy of concealment. Any priest caught raping children must be sacked and handed over to the police, forthwith, anything less is a cover-up.

6) Expel the papal nuncio from Ireland, until we get written guarantees from Ratzinger, that he accepts point 5 without reservation.

7) Withdraw our recognition of the Vatican and the Holy See as a state at the UN immediately. Oh, wait, that means the papal nuncio will be expelled permanently. Good.

8) No State visit for Herr Ratzinger next year or any year or for any of his successors. The Irish taxpayer has paid enough money on behalf of the Vatican and their criminality already. We are broke, we can't afford it. If he wants to visit our country, let the creepy, querulous old virgin pay for the trip himself. Fly Ryanair, Josef, and buy yourself a scratch ticket. You might win enough to buy yourself a brand new pointy hat. Hopefully there will be a few of An Garda Siochana's finest, waiting for him on the runway at Knock, to put the hand-cuffs on him and put him on the next plane to the Hague to face trial for crimes against humanity.

Without these actions, our State will continue to fail in its duty to protect children from these monsters. We have failed for too long already. They haven't gone away, you know?

Very well said. Secularism FTW!

magicbastarder

goingpostal wrote: »

7) Withdraw our recognition of the Vatican and the Holy See as a state at the UN immediately. Oh, wait, that means the papal nuncio will be expelled permanently. Good.

did i read somewhere that the vatican being treated as a state in the UN violates the UN's own rules?
it was based on the rule that the UN require a state to have a 'permanent' population to be considered a state, and one where there are no births and people move there at a certain age does not meet these requirements.

The Mad Hatter

goingpostal wrote: »

I believe his words of condemnation are sincere. Regardless of his party or politics, he is expressing the revulsion of any right-thinking human being towards these abominable crimes. These words will be utterly meaningless, however, if he doesn't follow them up with actions which include the following:

1)Transfer EVERY school in the state from church to public ownership immediately. No more teaching children about the Purportedly Magic Rabbi on State-funded school-time from now on. If parents want to teach their kids those myths, or any other myths, they can do it on their own time, and without the financial backing of the State. Our State has absolutely no business promoting and funding one religious belief system over all the others, if we are serious about being a modern, inclusive, egalitarian State.

2)Seize Church assets to pay their 50% share of the 1.36bn euro bill for reparations to the victims of rape, torture and enslavement. Yes, that is 1,360,000,000 euros.

3)Set up a constitutional review committee to remove the special status of the RC Church from our constitution and remove all religious references from that document and create a real separation of church and state. I don't know exactly how this can be done, but it must be done.

4)Enshrine the inalienable human rights of children in our constitution.

5) Make it crystal clear to the Vatican that our civil law trumps their dumb-ass Canon Law EVERY time, when dealing with the indecent assault and rape of children. EVERY TIME. As soon as any member of the clergy has credible suspicion of child-rape or indecent assault, they report this information to the police immediately. No more hush-money, no more dealing with these unspeakable crimes in-house, no more of our State turning a blind eye to this international criminal conspiracy of concealment. Any priest caught raping children must be sacked and handed over to the police, forthwith, anything less is a cover-up.

6) Expel the papal nuncio from Ireland, until we get written guarantees from Ratzinger, that he accepts point 5 without reservation.

7) Withdraw our recognition of the Vatican and the Holy See as a state at the UN immediately. Oh, wait, that means the papal nuncio will be expelled permanently. Good.

8) No State visit for Herr Ratzinger next year or any year or for any of his successors. The Irish taxpayer has paid enough money on behalf of the Vatican and their criminality already. We are broke, we can't afford it. If he wants to visit our country, let the creepy, querulous old virgin pay for the trip himself. Fly Ryanair, Josef, and buy yourself a scratch ticket. You might win enough to buy yourself a brand new pointy hat. Hopefully there will be a few of An Garda Siochana's finest, waiting for him on the runway at Knock, to put the hand-cuffs on him and put him on the next plane to the Hague to face trial for crimes against humanity.

Without these actions, our State will continue to fail in its duty to protect children from these monsters. We have failed for too long already. They haven't gone away, you know?

It'd be worth rewriting this and sending it to the national papers.