Why are we afraid of male sexuality?

Logical Fallacy

The below appeared on the Guardian website today and i have to say it did make a degree of sense to me when i read it. Especially with the mention of the huge incidents of suicide among young males and the mantra that "Girls have problems...boys are problems".

It really does seem to be a case that men expressing their sexual desires or even implying that they may have been sexually successful is no longer allowed, particularly on the internet. The second a bloke implies any kind of sexual success you have people lining up to say how it has to be all lies and fancy.

One of the things that has really been getting on my nerves lately in the wake of the Giggs, Woods and DSK's of the world is that you have folk who are more than happy to use these men as a model for all males in an attempt to run down the entire gender. Countless articles will appear on line and be supported aimed at men and explaining why fidelity is a good thing...and indeed, even how not to rape someone as if men are so confused that they cannot tell the difference between consensual and forced sex.

Is it really turning into open season on men's sexuality?

Is there anything good to be said about male sexuality? That might seem a daft question. Apparently it brings a lot of pleasure and excitement to the lives of men and women alike, it's inspired some of the greatest art, music and literature through the ages and has played a fairly substantial role in sustaining our species and populating the planet. Nonetheless you'll need to search very, very hard to find any positive appraisal of male heterosexuality.

Since the era of the permissive society and the mainstreaming of modern feminism, western society has gone a long way towards liberating women's sexuality. Younger women have, to an unprecedented extent, been encouraged to believe they can be as sexual as they like and to experience and express their desires as they wish. Even the age-old proscriptions on female promiscuity have been largely broken down, exemplified by the glorious flowering of the SlutWalk movement.

Simultaneously, and perhaps not coincidentally, male sexuality has been increasingly seen as a problem. You can hear it in the gentle, dismissive mockery that says men are simple creatures who "only want one thing" or, at the extreme, outright vilification. The male gaze threatens, male desire is aggressive. Our primal instincts are pathologised with the jargon of gender studies. Righteous and necessary efforts to reduce sexual crimes have had the unwelcome effect of teaching generations of men that our sexuality can be dangerous and frightening.

Don't believe me? Look back at the Bailey review into the early sexualisation of children, and the surrounding media hoo-ha. Leaving aside any concerns about the veracity and accuracy of the report itself (and I have plenty myself) it is striking that acres of print were devoted to the impacts of these social trends on girls, their self-esteem and body image; their developing sexuality; their safety and security. Barely a word was spoken about boys, beyond fears that they are being turned into beasts.

Again and again the message came out: girls have problems. Boys are problems. And yet does anyone doubt that there should be concerns about how easy access to porn impacts upon boys' sexual development, their self-esteem, their body image or performance anxieties? It's not as if young men bask in perfect mental health and happiness – young men commit suicide at nearly four times the rate of young women, and sex and relationships rank high on their list of concerns.

At the other end of the age range, sexually active older women are now widely eroticised (albeit often with a rather misogynistic undertone) as "cougars" or (forgive me) "Milfs" while their male equivalents are disparaged as dirty old men. Observer columnist Viv Groskop recently went further, opining about any older man who has sex outside marriage, even the mild-mannered old janitor John Major, saying "Unfortunately it's not against the law to be an old lecher. Maybe it should be. Or at the very least you shouldn't be rewarded with the highest office in the land."

Perhaps the greatest concern for men and women alike should be the way male sexuality and sexual expressiveness balances on a narrow tightrope of acceptability. One step off the wire and you tumble into the realm of perversion. As feminist blogger Clarisse Thorn noted last year, any man who hits on a woman and gets it wrong risks being branded a "creep" – sometimes deservedly so, of course, but often for no greater sin than being insufficiently attractive or socially skilled, or having misread a perceived signal of invitation. I've never heard of a woman being stigmatised or disparaged for expressing an attraction to big men, rough men, geeky men or whatever. A man who expresses similar desires for women who don't conform to standard norms of beauty is a perv, a fetishist, a weirdo.

All of these prejudices are rehearsed and reiterated by men and women alike, they reside in the intangible web of social norms, conventions and culture, but they can and must be challenged and changed. If we can begin to openly and joyously celebrate the positives to male sexuality, it might become easier for men to be happy and confident sexual partners, and in turn become better lovers, and sometimes better people.

Male sexuality is no less diverse, complex and wonderful than women's or, for that matter, no more base, coarse and animalistic. Sure, most men might be slightly more likely to let our gaze linger on eye-catching curves, and slightly less likely to giggle about our lovers' proclivities with our friends, but in the grand picture women and men are surprisingly similar, in this respect as in so many others. Women have been entirely justified in asking that we blokes respect their rights, autonomy and wishes, that we respect them as sexual beings. It shouldn't be too much to ask for a little of the same in return.

Yahew

Hmm. I disagree. One thing that feminists have right is that male sexuality must be curtailed.

Sonics2k

Yahew wrote: »

Hmm. I disagree. One thing that feminists have right is that male sexuality must be curtailed.

What. Why?

eco2live

Yahew wrote: »

Hmm. I disagree. One thing that feminists have right is that male sexuality must be curtailed.

That worked out well for the priests

Logical Fallacy

Yahew wrote: »

Hmm. I disagree. One thing that feminists have right is that male sexuality must be curtailed.

Do you have any kind of reason or logic for thinking that?

Dravokivich

After reading through the article I'm honestly not too sure what the author meant by:

All of these prejudices are rehearsed and reiterated by men and women alike, they reside in the intangible web of social norms, conventions and culture, but they can and must be challenged and changed. If we can begin to openly and joyously celebrate the positives to male sexuality, it might become easier for men to be happy and confident sexual partners, and in turn become better lovers, and sometimes better people.

But yeah, I think I get the general gist of the piece. Men interested in sex through no fault of their own are assumed to be sexual predators/deviants, which is complete bollox.

Is it really turning into open season on men's sexuality?

In regards to this... hmm... I think the way sex "as a trophy" is acknowledged is somewhat reversed... Before a woman used to be seen as little more then a thing to be enticed by and to co-erce a bloke into sex. Women often being left as outcasts within society when they were found to be promisous, but never anything said against a man for it. Often you'd hear the line "The kinda girls your mother would warn you about." Seems to be seen as the other way around now according to that article.

err... if that doesn't really make sense, sex was a shame born by women, now by men.

So yes, its possible, but I haven't seen it.

Yahew

eco2live wrote: »

Yahew wrote: »

Hmm. I disagree. One thing that feminists have right is that male sexuality must be curtailed.

That worked out well for the priests

Not eliminated.

Yahew

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

Yahew wrote: »

Hmm. I disagree. One thing that feminists have right is that male sexuality must be curtailed.

Do you have any kind of reason or logic for thinking that?

Why should women, or society be scared of male sexuality? Historically uncurtailed male sexuality has been pretty vicious. Take war and rape for instance.

Dravokivich

Yahew wrote: »

Why should women, or society be scared of male sexuality? Historically uncurtailed male sexuality has been pretty vicious. Take war and rape for instance.

or, take killings in war as an example of how men are murderous maniacs...

ahem *chough*

Logical Fallacy

Yahew wrote: »

Why should women, or society be scared of male sexuality? Historically uncurtailed male sexuality has been pretty vicious. Take war and rape for instance.

Yahew wrote: »

Why should women, or society be scared of male sexuality? Historically uncurtailed male sexuality has been pretty vicious. Take war and rape for instance.

You seem to be happy to bundle loving sexual relationships in with rape, unless i am taking you up wrong?

I am also unsure how curtailing male sexuality in general would help to deal with those issues given that the vast majority of men will never commit a rape over the course of their lives.

It is interesting as an argument could be made that the fact that some men will rape is used to try and make all men ashamed of their sexuality...which seems to be the angle you are working.

I have to say, you are not really going anywhere for me with these one line answers. I'd like to see how you feel male sexuality could be, or should be, curtailed instead?

eco2live wrote: »

That worked out well for the priests

To go off topic for a moment, i imagine it makes more sense to consider that the very nature of the Chruch's set up offered a good cover for pedophiles as opposed to not being able to have sex turned normal men into kiddy fiddlers.

Aurum

Dravokivich wrote: »

or, take killings in war as an example of how men are murderous maniacs...

ahem *chough*

I don't think that anyone could argue that women are incapable of being murderous maniacs or that a very large percentage of men are exceedingly violent. However, you don't need to take more than a cursory glance at history to ascertain that the vast majority of those perpetrating the maniacal murdering during the last two thousand years or so were men.

metrovelvet

Aurum wrote: »

I don't think that anyone could argue that women are incapable of being murderous maniacs or that a very large percentage of men are exceedingly violent. However, you don't need to take more than a cursory glance at history to ascertain that the vast majority of those perpetrating the maniacal murdering during the last two thousand years or so were men.

If women werent stuck in kitchens we may have done it too. Who knows.

Saying that...I think we are afraid of it because a) it's powerful b) it has permission to be manifest in a way women's is not c) historically it has been celebrated in a bravado way d) there have been an awful lot of dark sides to it.

Now... I would also say that very generally speaking women are also afraid of their own sexuality, of their orgasm, of their sirens, of their allure.

And... my sum total of all this.... is there is a pleasure deficit in the west.

Dravokivich

Aurum wrote: »

I don't think that anyone could argue that women are incapable of being murderous maniacs or that a very large percentage of men are exceedingly violent. However, you don't need to take more than a cursory glance at history to ascertain that the vast majority of those perpetrating the maniacal murdering during the last two thousand years or so were men.

Yes, solely because being in an army/raid party was seen as a role to be held by men, whether it be offensive or defensive. Overall, gender roles have changed the last 100 years with the shift in attitude within society (Western at least). So it's very hard to compare a man now, to a man of the previous 2,000 years. You are not comparing like for like in that instance.

With regards to the article in the OP, women are shown to have a strong sexual presence about themselves and in general it appears to be well received. Strangely enough the sexual presence of todays man is not (or even the presence of a man for that matter). My reply that you quoted, was a reaction that I intended to be outlandish in direct reference to Yahew's comment. They are citing a vague historical reference. I'm not asking for examples of it, but it did need to be shown that it is a ridiculas point to argue as a reason for the man of today to be ashamed of their sexual presence and withold it.

Yahew

Dravokivich wrote: »

or, take killings in war as an example of how men are murderous maniacs...

ahem *chough*

In history one woman who sexual appetites were remarkable. Thats an anecdote, not a statistic.

Yahew

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

You seem to be happy to bundle loving sexual relationships in with rape, unless i am taking you up wrong?

Where in God's green Earth did you read that into anything I said in this thread?

Yahew

Ok, most of my postings were from a phone, and hence short. Although you would think them uncontroversial. Historically human tribes raided other human tribes, killed the men and raped the women. There was little or no morality involved. With war came rape. With power, rape, or forced concubinage, or force marriage.

Why? You have to ask what traditionally restricts male sexual violence, and the answer is - other men. Women have brothers, fathers, sons and husbands and these men dont look favourably on their women being raped ( although in some middle eastern societies, the blame and dishonour of rape even now - as then - falls on the women).

In modern society men are socialised for 14-18 years in school. Even then some men rape. When society breaks down, even in States of the Enlightenment, men rape. When the Russians invaded Germany they raped children, adults, and octogenarian women.

now thats a powerful force, and it needs to be restricted.

Yahew

Dravokivich wrote: »

Yes, solely because being in an army/raid party was seen as a role to be held by men, whether it be offensive or defensive. Overall, gender roles have changed the last 100 years with the shift in attitude within society (Western at least). So it's very hard to compare a man now, to a man of the previous 2,000 years. You are not comparing like for like in that instance.

The modern man is not in any way evolutionary different from his predecessor. In every kitten there is a feral cat, and in every modern human an ancient. We are modern because of the environment, not our genes.

Dravokivich

Yahew wrote: »

In history one woman who sexual appetites were remarkable. Thats an anecdote, not a statistic.

Yahew wrote: »

Ok, most of my postings were from a phone, and hence short. Although you would think them uncontroversial. Historically human tribes raided other human tribes, killed the men and raped the women. There was little or no morality involved. With war came rape. With power, rape, or forced concubinage, or force marriage.

Why? You have to ask what traditionally restricts male sexual violence, and the answer is - other men. Women have brothers, fathers, sons and husbands and these men dont look favourably on their women being raped ( although in some middle eastern societies, the blame and dishonour of rape even now - as then - falls on the women).

In modern society men are socialised for 14-18 years in school. Even then some men rape. When society breaks down, even in States of the Enlightenment, men rape. When the Russians invaded Germany they raped children, adults, and octogenarian women.

now thats a powerful force, and it needs to be restricted.

Anecdotes / Statistics, then you present extremes as if they are normality.

Sexuality =/= Rapist

kiffer

... I feel my sexuality has been damaged by listening to women too much...
Spend time with women in a friendly context and you'll hear no end of stories about creeps and weirdoes who had the gall to approach them with out being sufficiantly attractive(*) to warrent approval, very rarely do they talk about how a charming man who smiled and held a door open for them, but you'll hear all about the creepy guy who held the door for them and grinned, and he was probably doing it to look at their bums and so on, and how men are pigs...

If you're already starting from shy possition this leaves you with a pretty bad idea of what women think of men...
Then in attempting to avoid creepy behaviour you end up avoiding showing attraction to anyone, and you end up getting nowhere with women...

Edit: Snip, said tomuch.

Ophiopogon

Yahew wrote: »

The modern man is not in any way evolutionary different from his predecessor. In every kitten there is a feral cat, and in every modern human an ancient. We are modern because of the environment, not our genes.

So in every man there is a rapist??

kiffer

Ophiopogon wrote: »

So in every man there is a rapist??

I think this thread might need some popcorn... It's going to get flamey...

I think there maybe an over inflated view of how much forced sex early humans had...

Logical Fallacy

Yahew wrote: »

Where in God's green Earth did you read that into anything I said in this thread?

The fact that the thread is about male sexuality, you are talking about rape and curtailing male sexuality to deal with rape.

To be honest your entire batch of posting within this thread is really just a prime example of how impossible it is for people to view male sexuality without instantly turning things into a rape discussion.

Yahew wrote: »

Ok, most of my postings were from a phone, and hence short. Although you would think them uncontroversial. Historically human tribes raided other human tribes, killed the men and raped the women. There was little or no morality involved. With war came rape. With power, rape, or forced concubinage, or force marriage.

Why? You have to ask what traditionally restricts male sexual violence, and the answer is - other men. Women have brothers, fathers, sons and husbands and these men dont look favourably on their women being raped ( although in some middle eastern societies, the blame and dishonour of rape even now - as then - falls on the women).

In modern society men are socialised for 14-18 years in school. Even then some men rape. When society breaks down, even in States of the Enlightenment, men rape. When the Russians invaded Germany they raped children, adults, and octogenarian women.

now thats a powerful force, and it needs to be restricted.

Once again, you are hinging entirely on one aspect of male sexuality...and even then the vast majority of people will say that rape is not about sex, but about control. Would you agree or disagree with that assessment of drive behind a rapist's actions?

Once again, i shall ask you, how does curtailing male sexuality in all it's broad forms help with regard to lessening the instances of rape?

I think it doesn't...i think the two are very seperate discussions and i think rape is completely outside the norms of sexuality for the vast majority of men.

I do understand however that this fact is not quite as attention grabbing as saying that all men are potential rapists in my best Germaine Greer voice.

It is kind of interesting that even when you are pointing out that men can also be responsible for stopping rape...you need to infer that this is only happening because the men view women as their property and don't want them spoiled or broken.

To be honest, right now, this thread is already dead and the point is largely proven.

It's just not possible to discuss male sexuality without the spectre of an act committed by a statistical view being held against the many.

18AD

Yahew wrote: »

We are modern because of the environment, not our genes.

An environment created mostly by other people, other genetic beings. You can't separate environment and genetics. That's the whole dance of evolution, innit?

Ophiopogon wrote:

So in every man there is a rapist??

Yup. And poet, dancer, muscian, physicist, psychopath... potentially. :eek:

Sonics2k

Yahew wrote: »

Ok, most of my postings were from a phone, and hence short. Although you would think them uncontroversial. Historically human tribes raided other human tribes, killed the men and raped the women. There was little or no morality involved. With war came rape. With power, rape, or forced concubinage, or force marriage.

Why? You have to ask what traditionally restricts male sexual violence, and the answer is - other men. Women have brothers, fathers, sons and husbands and these men dont look favourably on their women being raped ( although in some middle eastern societies, the blame and dishonour of rape even now - as then - falls on the women).

In modern society men are socialised for 14-18 years in school. Even then some men rape. When society breaks down, even in States of the Enlightenment, men rape. When the Russians invaded Germany they raped children, adults, and octogenarian women.

now thats a powerful force, and it needs to be restricted.

We also threw people to Lions for personal amusement.
We thought the world was flat.
We believed a group of Gods lived on a mountain, and were basically an ancient day-time soap.

Just because some men have raped people throughout our History, does not mean that all men are rapists and would do the same.

Quite frankly, you're speaking nonsense.

Yahew

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

The fact that the thread is about male sexuality, you are talking about rape and curtailing male sexuality to deal with rape.

The thread title is

Why are we afraid of male sexuality.


I gave some reasons. Women have a right to fear it. If you ask what they fear - rape would be the main thing. There are other things - the rise in male orientated porn which is fairly humourless, certainly loveless, and often demeaning. ( And which I sometimes consume).

Once again, you are hinging entirely on one aspect of male sexuality...and even then the vast majority of people will say that rape is not about sex, but about control. Would you agree or disagree with that assessment of drive behind a rapist's actions?

No, and I am not a feminist. The feminist argument about rape being primarily or only about control is nonsense. If it were, people would just boss people about, and be done with it.

Once again, i shall ask you, how does curtailing male sexuality in all it's broad forms help with regard to lessening the instances of rape?

I am answering the title. I said nothing of curtailing all sexuality. You are reading what you want. I said in my first post that "Hmm. I disagree. One thing that feminists have right is that male sexuality must be curtailed.". That does not mean eliminated. In general our sexual urges are curtailed by modern society. As they should be. See, however, what the powerful do in situations where they can get away with it.

I think it doesn't...i think the two are very seperate discussions and i think rape is completely outside the norms of sexuality for the vast majority of men.

It is because of the very curtailment I am talking about, a curtailment which collapses in times of war.

I do understand however that this fact is not quite as attention grabbing as saying that all men are potential rapists in my best Germaine Greer voice.

All men are. And all women are potential murderers.

It is kind of interesting that even when you are pointing out that men can also be responsible for stopping rape...you need to infer that this is only happening because the men view women as their property and don't want them spoiled or broken.

Firstly, I can only imply something. YOu would have to infer from my argument. And you do seem to do a lot of inferring and, once again, have plucked from nowhere something I didn't say nor imply.

To be honest, right now, this thread is already dead and the point is largely proven. It's just not possible to discuss male sexuality without the spectre of an act committed by a statistical view being held against the many.

You seem to be deliberately missing the point that I believe that male sexuality both needs to be, and is, curtailed in civilized societies ( and not just the West, either). Apparently you don't want an argument but a thread for the agreeing with you.

The title, however, is "Why are we afraid of male sexuality" and the answer, for women, is - amongst other things - potential rape. Men are physically stronger, so rape is always there. The elephant in the room. Let me tell you a story. Was out jogging in a wet sodden park today and a woman was behind me. Then another woman joined her. And then another woman. Dunno if they knew each other but we were all of the same pace so I was chased by three women. Didnt bother me a bit. Quite pleasant. now imagine the sexes were reversed and I was a woman behind whom three men had started to form in a darkening isolated park. That woman would veer off, even though the men would most likely have no intent.

you cant title this thread the way you have and not expect an answer. Why are "we" afraid of male sexuality. Because, to the opposite sex., it is more dangerous than female sexuality

Dravokivich

Yahew wrote: »

the rise in male orientated porn which is fairly humourless, certainly loveless, and often demeaning. ( And which I sometimes consume).

This is a matter of taste.

Yahew wrote: »

All men are.

I would not consider myself a potential rapist. Nor would I consider any of the men here as a potential rapist. I have no reason to think as such.

Yahew wrote: »

you cant title this thread the way you have and not expect an answer. Why are "we" afraid of male sexuality. Because, to the opposite sex., it is more dangerous than female sexuality

The issue I perceived from reading the article is why does women's sexuality get associated with a sense of pride while men's has to be associated with shame/disgust?

LegacyUser

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

Especially with the mention of the huge incidents of suicide among young males and the mantra that "Girls have problems...boys are problems".

I read somewhere recently that suicide attempts are spread evenly across the sexes in Ireland, it's just that men are much much more likely to succeed due to choosing more violent methods. This isn't meant as a tit-for-tat statement, it's just it's always pondered why male suicide rates are much higher in this country and there be may no more difficult an answer than: they are better at succeeding.

Otis Driftwood

Can you provide a link for that?

Dravokivich

Otis Driftwood wrote: »

Can you provide a link for that?

Micky Dolenz made reference to it on a discussion about suicide on AH.

LegacyUser

Here:

http://suicideprevention.ie/pages/?id=52&tid=13

Of course, it's possible that women choose more "cry for help" methods, maybe there is still a greater intention in men for it to be successful than in women.

metrovelvet

equal numbers wrote: »

I read somewhere recently that suicide attempts are spread evenly across the sexes in Ireland, it's just that men are much much more likely to succeed due to choosing more violent methods. This isn't meant as a tit-for-tat statement, it's just it's always pondered why male suicide rates are much higher in this country and there be may no more difficult an answer than: they are better at succeeding.

A social worker in a hospice explained the same thing to me. The attempts are equal numbers with men and women, but the methods men choose are likely to be more successful because women choose methods which will not deface them, like pills, which have a less likely chance to work.

Jesus Wept

I don't think the disparity can be explained away like that, there is a difference between a genuine attempt and a 'suicidal gesture'.

LegacyUser

The-Rigger wrote: »

I don't think the disparity can be explained away like that, there is a difference between a genuine attempt and a 'suicidal gesture'.

Yeah, I agree actually.

A "cry for help" attempt is a lot different from a loss of self-preservation, don't care any more attempt.

um7y1h83ge06nx

I definitely think society looks down upon male sexuality, it's p*sses me off no end.

I took an interest in a recent Ladies Lounge thread titled "Are we becoming too afraid of men?". For a man, it made pretty bad reading.

I really identify with my sexuality (for context I'm a 28yr old heterosexual male), and male sexuality is most certainly not as simple and the media claims it is.

My sexual side has had it's ups and downs. Last year I suffered from psychological erectile dysfunction, which had it's origins in a bad break-up. I only really became comfortable with myself and my erections in the last 2 months, it took GP consultations, Cognitive Behavioural Therapy and exercises to sort it out. It did however make me more aware of my sexuality which is a good thing I guess. But this just shows how complex male sexuality is.

I really love the sexual desire I have for my girlfriend. I connect with her on a proper emotional level, but sometimes feeling physical lust is great. Thankfully she loves it too.

I feel that a lot of women these days want their men to be more placid, they want to control them more. And trying to restrict and control male sexuality is probably one of the ways to achieve this. But deep down, a lot of women I have encountered in my life really want their men to be in control in the bedroom behind closed doors. Bit of a contradiction I always thought.

I for one hope I can always feel comfortable and happy with my sexuality.

18AD

See, that's the thing. Sexuality isn't just some unstoppable genetic fluctuation. It's inextricably linked to cognitive functioning and emotions/memory and all the rest. So things like abnormal sexual behaviour might be linked to any one of these other things that are not only sexuality. Me thinks. Always the middle ground

metrovelvet

Vincenzo Fierce Seafarer wrote: »

I definitely think society looks down upon male sexuality, it's p*sses me off no end.

I took an interest in a recent Ladies Lounge thread titled "Are we becoming too afraid of men?". For a man, it made pretty bad reading.

I really identify with my sexuality (for context I'm a 28yr old heterosexual male), and male sexuality is most certainly not as simple and the media claims it is.

My sexual side has had it's ups and downs. Last year I suffered from psychological erectile dysfunction, which had it's origins in a bad break-up. I only really became comfortable with myself and my erections in the last 2 months, it took GP consultations, Cognitive Behavioural Therapy and exercises to sort it out. It did however make me more aware of my sexuality which is a good thing I guess. But this just shows how complex male sexuality is.

I really love the sexual desire I have for my girlfriend. I connect with her on a proper emotional level, but sometimes feeling physical lust is great. Thankfully she loves it too.

I feel that a lot of women these days want their men to be more placid, they want to control them more. And trying to restrict and control male sexuality is probably one of the ways to achieve this. But deep down, a lot of women I have encountered in my life really want their men to be in control in the bedroom behind closed doors. Bit of a contradiction I always thought.

I for one hope I can always feel comfortable and happy with my sexuality.

*Un PC alert*

In my opinion women of the past couple of generations have unrealistic and prettified ideals about what male sexuality is and should be, or maybe sexuality in general. They have been sold a sanitised pink and fluffy version of it all and are not reared to be equipped to deal with it, negotiate with it, or fend it off.

*See fairytale thread on TLL. Interesting counterpart to this thread.

Galvasean

From the article linked in the OP:

And yet does anyone doubt that there should be concerns about how easy access to porn impacts upon boys' sexual development, their self-esteem, their body image or performance anxieties? It's not as if young men bask in perfect mental health and happiness

It always amazes me how often you hear things like, "These days girls have so much expectation to live up to in terms of image in relation to how female sexuality is portrayed in the media" etc. While this is certainly a very valid point and a concerning one, such attention is not given to standards of male sexuality / masculinity as portrayed in the media.
As per the piece quoted, porn is one such example. Lets be honest, virtually every young male in this day and age watches porn, yet no one seems to care how such things might affect their developing sexuality. Think about it, you have this handsome man, built like a tank, perfect abs, full body wax, enormous cock and enough skill/stamina in the bedroom to easily sexually pleasure one several women in the bedroom. And yet we are supposed to believe that this can have no negative effect on a young man's self esteem. It should come as little surprise that a prominent concern for teenage boys / young men is whether their dick is large enough / whether they can satisfy a woman sexually.
But that's just the porn industry right? Generally entertainment aimed at males portrays a sort of hyper-masculinity, that very few in life achieve. Example, the WWE;

These are a couple of your standard wrestling stars. They even look quite a lot like porn stars. They're strong, athletic, handsome and packed with muscles.
Then there's movies...

Now THAT's hyper-masculinity! The movie 300 was aimed primarily at young males and proved hugely successful. One of the film's main themes was that of manliness. Abs, athleticism, testosterone, 300 has it all in Greek style urns!

Why is it that countless column inches are dedicated as to how Britney Spears' belly, Rihanna's cleavege (or whatever is 'in' now) is giving young girls unrealistic notions of what constitutes beauty and what must be strived to in order to be considered worthy, but the same is almost never said about John Cena's epic muscles in relation to young males?
Do people not care? Or are guys just meant to 'man up' (always hated that phrase) and get on with it?

um7y1h83ge06nx

metrovelvet wrote: »

*Un PC alert*

In my opinion women of the past couple of generations have unrealistic and prettified ideals about what male sexuality is and should be, or maybe sexuality in general. They have been sold a sanitised pink and fluffy version of it all and are not reared to be equipped to deal with it, negotiate with it, or fend it off.

*See fairytale thread on TLL. Interesting counterpart to this thread.

Yeah I saw that fairytale thread alright.

So I guess what is male sexuality exactly today?

Sweeping generalisation here, but I feel women want the best of both worlds. A very refined, "pink and fluffy version" you describe, in public and a very traditional, masculine version in the bedroom.

Maybe that is because women do indeed feel threatened by men and it is only when a woman is consensually with a man in bed that she feels she can leave her guard down (i.e. this guy is not a creep, weirdo, rapist or mass murderer and I trust him).

* Again complete opinion and a big generalisation *

Snowie

I often read Logical Fallacy post's on nice guys and how there losers.. I never really thought you have any idea what your talking about., because its easy to be nice when you've got no confidence you want friends you want to be liked bye every body you want girls to like you and you fall in to a pit... People see that as being needy... and to a degree Id say yes it is.... But as an ego/ confidance boost when some drunk female friends rings you tell her how she argued with her boy friend.... People take advantage of you as a person..

That can hurt... I beleive that at times it can contribute to such a low level of self esteam that some young men would feel betrayed and hurt enough to take more extream lengths...

so there one more then perfect reason to why young men commet sucide because they don't have the confidence to talk to people.


I beleive sexuality can be as big of a problem as the above.. I know a few gay people all lovely and easy to talk to... Its makes not difference to me what there into how ever some people it could be a massive burden to be in that postition...

either way I think there are many reasons for sucha high male sucide rate I think to point the finger at sexuality is a bit of a cop out. and piss poor research as well as a writing..

Im nto a great writer but the writer content to a degree stands for fvck all...
More then liekly its something reaserched using wiki and god knows what else.

Eve_Dublin

This is interesting. I don't understand WHAT male sexuality is completely, to be honest. How would I know in the ins and outs of it? I think I'm only realising in the past few years how deeply it runs from spending time with very open, honest men. I suppose I found it a little unnerving just how deeply they (you guys) can lust and how beyond head wreaking it must be to curtail it. With the curtailment comes women getting the wrong impression as to what it really is. It's hard to know what you feel if you don't let us know. We get the wrong end of the stick with Beavis and Butthead comments posted on forums, lyrics in modern pop songs and this is the only insight most (young) women get...and of course it's not a fair and not correct.

I suppose it comes down to science...men can detach themselves from sex more than women (I'll find a reference to science for that if you need it). I was in a situation last year myself with a guy I'd been sleeping with for almost a year and when I finally got round to asking him if something more was going on, he looked at me like I'd two heads. I was sad at the time but I still like the guy. He's still one of my best friends here. He never intentionally went out to hurt me, it was simply down to the fact that he could detach himself during sex whereas I was getting closer. I think a lot of the fear I'd feel about male sexuality would come down to that: fearing that a man only wants one thing and getting hurt. I'm not talking about an ONS but an ongoing sexual relationship. Women get more emotionally attached in the end through sexual intercourse. I wouldn't resent a man for that, it's just the way it is but it's still something I find hard to get my head round.

This is not an attack on men, by the way. Having a high sex drive myself, I'd rather a man is honest and raw about his feelings. My boyfriend is like that. If he wants me in that way, he lets me know in a non-sugar coated way and I like that about him.

Eve_Dublin

Galvasean wrote: »

Why is it that countless column inches are dedicated as to how Britney Spears' belly, Rihanna's cleavege (or whatever is 'in' now) is giving young girls unrealistic notions of what constitutes beauty and what must be strived to in order to be considered worthy, but the same is almost never said about John Cena's epic muscles in relation to young males?
Do people not care? Or are guys just meant to 'man up' (always hated that phrase) and get on with it?

Well it's often women who bring up these points and often it's women who complain. The platform is there for you guys to do the same. You just don't see it as much. If there was enough hoo-ha, I'm sure we'd hear about it.

baby and crumble

Yahew wrote: »

The feminist argument about rape being primarily or only about control is nonsense. If it were, people would just boss people about, and be done with it.

Oh dear.

it's not a feminist argument. it's an argument which has been debated and mostly agreed upon in philosophical psychological and sociological research time and again (I don't have the references to hand, but trust me, they aren't all feminist!).

I have to say I've enjoyed reading this thread. As a woman who likes women, it's very interesting. Male sexuality doesn't really impinge on my life at all, but I always found it odd when my friends say things like "sure they're all the same" or "what a creep, he let me sit down in his seat on the bus, just wanted to look down my top!" Eh, what?

I feel bad for the regular guys who are lovely and want the same things women want- love and safety and fullfilling sex with someone you love. it seems to me that men and women are being sold completely different stories about the same event, it's baffling. Women are told if want to cuddle too much, forget about it, he'll never go for it! men are told not to cuddle as it's girly. Confusing much? most of my guy friends will talk about how they want someone to hold, and yeah, to hold them, too. Why is it such a tabboo?

gargleblaster

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

Well it's often women who bring up these points and often it's women who complain. The platform is there for you guys to do the same. You just don't see it as much. If there was enough hoo-ha, I'm sure we'd hear about it.

Yes, however we have to take into account that men are overwhelmingly socialized not to complain about these things. To do so risks being labeled as weak or a wussy or what have you. Eating disorders are on the rise among boys, and testosterone abuse is also a big problem. So the pressure that has always been on women to be physically perfect is now obviously being spread to men and it's taking the same toll on boys.


As for Yahew's comments, I want to say that I picked them up differently. I don't think he was saying that all men are potential rapists (just a large percentage, based on statistics and all-too-common attempts to claim it's just in men's nature to rape). Just that it is only socialization that makes us civilized. If a child is left to their own devices, and not tought social mores and customs, then that child will behave as an animal. Animals will rape dead carcasses FFS, so yes, the potential to behave in an uncivilized manner is there in every one of us, and that does include rape.


I don't agree with everything in the article quoted in the OP, but I think it raises some very good points. Boys and male sexuality goes largely unexplored and the problems that afflict them are treated the same. IMO we should stop raising boys to 'take it on the chin', and allow them to escape the manly man trap of never talking about how things make them feel and that discussing unfairness is somehow being a whiner. No problems ever get solved that way.

Galvasean

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

Well it's often women who bring up these points and often it's women who complain. The platform is there for you guys to do the same. You just don't see it as much. If there was enough hoo-ha, I'm sure we'd hear about it.

Oh yeah, I should have mentioned that I think it is (mostly) a male generated problem. In general men keep quiet as not to look unmanly in the eyes of other men IMO.

gargleblaster

baby and crumble wrote: »

Oh dear.

it's not a feminist argument. it's an argument which has been debated and mostly agreed upon in philosophical psychological and sociological research time and again (I don't have the references to hand, but trust me, they aren't all feminist!).

That point is not so widely held as in past years, it seems to be falling by the wayside, and considered a myth by many.

I feel bad for the regular guys who are lovely and want the same things women want- love and safety and fullfilling sex with someone you love. it seems to me that men and women are being sold completely different stories about the same event, it's baffling. Women are told if want to cuddle too much, forget about it, he'll never go for it! men are told not to cuddle as it's girly. Confusing much? most of my guy friends will talk about how they want someone to hold, and yeah, to hold them, too. Why is it such a tabboo?

I do too, it's very sad for men who don't fit the stereotypical manly-man mold. Sadly too few speak out against it yet, and so many women support it. As Eve_Dublin says above, society in general and pop culture in particular push this fairly consistently.

Eve_Dublin

baby and crumble wrote: »

I feel bad for the regular guys who are lovely and want the same things women want- love and safety and fullfilling sex with someone you love. it seems to me that men and women are being sold completely different stories about the same event, it's baffling. Women are told if want to cuddle too much, forget about it, he'll never go for it! men are told not to cuddle as it's girly. Confusing much? most of my guy friends will talk about how they want someone to hold, and yeah, to hold them, too. Why is it such a tabboo?

Really interesting to read an opinion from a total outsiders perspective. I'd agree with the above. There's plenty of media compounding the idea that "all men are after one thing" and it does men no favours, particularly young men and young women. I'd hope most women would realise through trial and error through life experience that this is a fallacy. I agree it's a problem indeed and one I never really thought about before.

Eve_Dublin

gargleblaster wrote: »

Yes, however we have to take into account that men are overwhelmingly socialized not to complain about these things. To do so risks being labeled as weak or a wussy or what have you. Eating disorders are on the rise among boys, and testosterone abuse is also a big problem. So the pressure that has always been on women to be physically perfect is now obviously being spread to men and it's taking the same toll on boys.

As women are labelled bra-burning, man hating feminists...you just have to get on with it if you feel strongly enough. Ignore the guff and name calling if you feel strongly enough.

Snowie

Galvasean wrote: »

Oh yeah, I should have mentioned that I think it is (mostly) a male generated problem. In general men keep quiet as not to look unmanly in the eyes of other men IMO.

+1

gargleblaster

Just wanted to pop back in to point out that as far as western society is concerned, women started agitating for more equal treatment in society in the context of sexual identity and liberation several decades ago - so it will take some time for people to shake off the indoctinration about men that most adults today have already internalized.

Until enough people start agitating, it won't be readily obvious, but the message is out there and activist men are already putting this stuff in classrooms.

metrovelvet

Is this thread relevant to gay men too or just within a hetero context?

Galvasean

metrovelvet wrote: »

Is this thread relevant to gay men too or just within a hetero context?

I'd imagine it is relevant. Gay sexuality is surrounded by misconceptions. A very large number of people consider gay sexuality deviant, immoral or unnatural.