Hitting a cyclists and not knowing

tarwad

Hi
A friend of mine asked me this question, what will happen to the driver of the car who upon entering a roundabout hits a cyclist from the side(any left or right side) of his/her car and not knowing that such as happened? will the driver be arrested and jailed or fined or both? will the driver loose his/her drivers licence?
he got this bad habit of when ever he enter/exita roundabout or comes out of minor road to major road he keeps checking and asking if he had hit any cyclist

corktina

he should KNOW if he's hit a cyclist or anything else...its call OBSERVATION
Perhaps you and he should be more concerned about waht will happen to the cyclist

Cookie_Monster

how can you not know you've hit something as big as someone on a bike?

L1011

Is your friend about three days in to learning to drive or what?

If you hit a cyclist in a car, you'll realise.

Wicklowrider

The slightest "tap" on the metal of a car from the outside is amplified within the car. If you don't believe this then get into a car and have someone give it a light rap with their knuckles - it'll sound like they thumped it.

Having said all that I cannot believe someone is driving around "wondering" if they are hitting human beings.

28064212

The OP reads like he hit someone and drove away and is trying out possible defences in case he's caught

Mikros

Well to answer your question, leaving a scene of an accident is an offence under Section 106 of the Road Traffic Act and is looked on very poorly in court especially if someone is injured. You would also most likely be open to being prosecuted for dangerous driving or careless driving for the manner of driving.

The possible outcome would almost certainly include a court appearance, and could result in anything from a fine to a driving ban and right up to imprisonment. It all depends on the specific circumstances of the case.

There is no way to hit a cyclist without knowing it and be driving safely at the same time.

CardBordWindow

I've been knocked off my bike 3 times. I've never been seriously hurt, (touch wood) but I know for a fact that I made a lot of noise upon contact with the car!

foggy_lad

tarwad wrote: »

Hi
A friend of mine asked me this question, what will happen to the driver of the car who upon entering a roundabout hits a cyclist from the side(any left or right side) of his/her car and not knowing that such as happened? will the driver be arrested and jailed or fined or both? will the driver loose his/her drivers licence?
he got this bad habit of when ever he enter/exita roundabout or comes out of minor road to major road he keeps checking and asking if he had hit any cyclist

It sounds like your friend needs to stop driving as they are either

A. Not paying due care and attention to their driving or to other road users or

B. Not able to see using the mirrors of the car through poor sight or just poor driving.

Whatever the reason if they are concerned that they may hit someone they are not competent to drive so they should stop before their fear is realised!

tarwad

with hitting the cyclist i meant was when you are making a turn and the cyclist who is in the inside and doesn't slow down/stop for the motorist to make the turn and hits the boot of the car from the side.
I have actually suggested him not to drive for sometime till he gets over his fear

-Chris-

You should still hear that, as there would still be a fairly strong thump/scraping sound.

If your friend wants to be less afraid of this, he just needs to get in the habit of checking his left mirror and glancing over his shoulder to look at his left blind spot before moving off - he should be pretty safe then.

ollaetta

Got knocked off my bike a few years ago by a motorist who suddenly turned left across me without indicating. I was able to get up and caught up to her at traffic lights. She hadn't a clue what I was talking about when I told her what happened.

Monty Burnz

tarwad wrote: »

with hitting the cyclist i meant was when you are making a turn and the cyclist who is in the inside and doesn't slow down/stop for the motorist to make the turn and hits the boot of the car from the side.
I have actually suggested him not to drive for sometime till he gets over his fear

Why should a cyclist slow down or stop - assuming they are even able to? (do you know what braking is like on bikes?) - to allow a driver to cut across them??

-Chris-

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Why should a cyclist slow down or stop - assuming they are even able to? (do you know what braking is like on bikes?) - to allow a driver to cut across them??

And that's how people get killed.

I'm sorry, this isn't aimed at you, it's a general opinion.

IF YOU'RE ON A BIKE AND YOU'RE COMING UP BEHIND A CAR THAT'S INDICATING LEFT, DON'T TRY AND PASS IT ON THE LEFT HAND SIDE. IF YOU DO, YOU ARE AN IDIOT, AND YOU ARE RISKING YOUR LIFE.

bk

-Chris- wrote: »

IF YOU'RE ON A BIKE AND YOU'RE COMING UP BEHIND A CAR THAT'S INDICATING LEFT, DON'T TRY AND PASS IT ON THE LEFT HAND SIDE. IF YOU DO, YOU ARE AN IDIOT, AND YOU ARE RISKING YOUR LIFE.

But we don't know if the driver was indicating left.

As a cyclist I can tell you that a very large number, perhaps even a majority of Irish drivers don't indicate.

It is even worse on a roundabout where many drivers don't seem to understand how to use roundabouts properly at all (which lane to be in, when to indicate, check their mirrors, etc.)

Also Chris do you really need to shout?

McTigs

tarwad wrote: »

with hitting the cyclist i meant was when you are making a turn and the cyclist who is in the inside and doesn't slow down/stop for the motorist to make the turn and hits the boot of the car from the side.
I have actually suggested him not to drive for sometime till he gets over his fear

or he could wait for the cyclist to pass before making the turn.

like he's supposed to.

foggy_lad

ollaetta wrote: »

Got knocked off my bike a few years ago by a motorist who suddenly turned left across me without indicating. I was able to get up and caught up to her at traffic lights. She hadn't a clue what I was talking about when I told her what happened.

Many motorists especially in the mornings are too busy eating breakfast, doing their make-up, texting or catching up finishing off yesterdays work or just listening to tunes on their ipod to hear or know what is going on around them

-Chris-

tarwad wrote: »

with hitting the cyclist i meant was when you are making a turn and the cyclist who is in the inside and doesn't slow down/stop for the motorist to make the turn and hits the boot of the car from the side.
I have actually suggested him not to drive for sometime till he gets over his fear

bk wrote: »

But we don't know if the driver was indicating left.

tarwad said "when you are making a turn and the cyclist who is in the inside and doesn't slow down/stop for the motorist to make the turn", so my reading of that is that he's already preparing for the turn (i.e. slowing & indicating) before the cyclist tries to undertake him.
I have to assume in this case that he is indicating correctly, as if he's not then it throws the whole debate out the window because we're then apportioning blame on a hypothetical situation, while also assuming these hypothetical people are making other mistakes, making the blame be a result of our framing of the hypothetical rather than as a result of the original question (or something... ).

bk wrote: »

As a cyclist I can tell you that a very large number, perhaps even a majority of Irish drivers don't indicate.

I'd say a large number, I wouldn't be sure about a majority.

bk wrote: »

It is even worse on a roundabout where many drivers don't seem to understand how to use roundabouts properly at all (which lane to be in, when to indicate, check their mirrors, etc.)

That's also definitely an issue, but we'd probably drag the thread off-topic by discussing it in detail .

bk wrote: »

Also Chris do you really need to shout?

I do, I really do. Everytime I see some idiot cyclist try and undertake a left turning vehicle I feel like screaming at them. It's stupid and dangerous, and I really don't want to be in a position where I have to watch someone be crushed to death under another vehicle. I couldn't handle that, I don't think.

Monty Burnz

-Chris- wrote: »

And that's how people get killed.

I'm sorry, this isn't aimed at you, it's a general opinion.

IF YOU'RE ON A BIKE AND YOU'RE COMING UP BEHIND A CAR THAT'S INDICATING LEFT, DON'T TRY AND PASS IT ON THE LEFT HAND SIDE. IF YOU DO, YOU ARE AN IDIOT, AND YOU ARE RISKING YOUR LIFE.

I don't think anyone does that though - I speak as a former cyclist, current pedestrian and driver. There's no problem when drivers indicate in good time. It's when they suddenly veer across you and you've nowhere to go that you hit things. It may surprise drivers to learn that cyclists - for some reason - really dislike being hit by or hitting cars.

foggy_lad

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I don't think anyone does that though - I speak as a former cyclist, current pedestrian and driver. There's no problem when drivers indicate in good time. It's when they suddenly veer across you and you've nowhere to go that you hit things. It may surprise drivers to learn that cyclists - for some reason - really dislike being hit by or hitting cars.

When i learned to cycle(quite a long time ago:)) and used a bicycle on a daily basis to go to and from school we were thought to never get on the passenger side of any vehicle and to take up our own space in the line of cars at junctions because we had as much right to the space as any other road user.

McTigs

The whole left turn issue is a massive failing on the part driving instruction. There is a massive responsibilty on the part of the cyclist not to take risks and undertaking a car indicating left is the height of reckless stupidity, however, the lack of awareness on the part of drivers is shocking in city centre traffic ( i live in galway). Cars actually overtake you in order to cut across you .*

I was cycling around amsterdam a few months ago and it was unbelievable. if a car is 50 yards ahead of you about to make a turn they would stop and wait for you to pass first. Why? cos that is what they are trained to do

* i qualify that by stating that i find most drivers on the road are couteous and considerate.

Monty Burnz

McTigs wrote: »

I was cycling around amsterdam a few months ago and it was unbelievable. if a car is 50 yards ahead of you about to make a turn they would stop and wait for you to pass first. Why? cos that is what they are trained to do

Is the Netherlands like Belgium, in that any accident between a car and a bike is the fault of the driver? It would explain a lot...

CardBordWindow

two of the times I've been hit, I've been BESIDE the car which turns left. Very hard to cop the indicators!!
One of the times, the guy wanted me to pay to get his BMW repainted, so I asked the gardaí. They said that he should have checked his mirror and left me pass before turning.
I have no problem slowing down to leave a car that is in front of me, and has turned on his indicator, to turn.

Dermo

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I don't think anyone does that though - I speak as a former cyclist, current pedestrian and driver. There's no problem when drivers indicate in good time. It's when they suddenly veer across you and you've nowhere to go that you hit things. It may surprise drivers to learn that cyclists - for some reason - really dislike being hit by or hitting cars.

I currently cycle and drive but I am mainly a pedestrian. Every morning while walking to work I see numerous cyclists go straight up the inside of cars at junctions when the car has indicated to go left. I have seen numerous cyclists get hit because of this and in 60-70% of times I would put the blame firmly on the cyclist. For some reason a lot of them will speed up to get around the car before it starts it's actual turning manoeuvre (but still has indicators on)

I still agree that a lot of drivers do not indicate correctly or in time but cyclists can be just as bad or worse when a driver is trying to turn left and has done everything correctly.

mcmoustache

Dermo wrote: »

I currently cycle and drive but I am mainly a pedestrian. Every morning while walking to work I see numerous cyclists go straight up the inside of cars at junctions when the car has indicated to go left. I have seen numerous cyclists get hit because of this and in 60-70% of times I would put the blame firmly on the cyclist. For some reason a lot of them will speed up to get around the car before it starts it's actual turning manoeuvre (but still has indicators on)
.

I'm a cyclist almost exclusively and see this all the time too. The way I see it, if I'm in front, I have the right to continue - a car shouldn't come from behind me to turn left and cut me off. This has happened to me before.

Equally, if a car is in front, they should have right of way when making a turn. It's also worth noting that undertaking moving vehicles is stupid and dangerous. Personally, I only ever do it if the vehicles are stationary and there is no chance of some car suddenly deciding to turn left.

Monty Burnz

mcmoustache wrote: »

Equally, if a car is in front, they should have right of way when making a turn. It's also worth noting that undertaking moving vehicles is stupid and dangerous.

It is, but bike riders will rarely do so on a roundabout (cars are faster) and will rarely do so at a junction as they are prone to injury when pulling such suicidal moves deliberately. It can arise if a car outbreaks a bike and the rider has nowhere to go before the driver cuts inside him.

mcmoustache wrote: »

Personally, I only ever do it if the vehicles are stationary and there is no chance of some car suddenly deciding to turn left.

Yeah, but then you're at the mercy of random door opening. I've seen this too. :eek:

tarwad

Dermo wrote: »

Every morning while walking to work I see numerous cyclists go straight up the inside of cars at junctions when the car has indicated to go left. I have seen numerous cyclists get hit because of this and in 60-70% of times I would put the blame firmly on the cyclist. For some reason a lot of them will speed up to get around the car before it starts it's actual turning manoeuvre (but still has indicators on)

Now thats what my friend asked me and i couldn't phrase it properly. Thanks Dermo.
What happens when a cyclist is hit in such a situation?

tarwad

mcmoustache wrote: »

I'm a cyclist almost exclusively and see this all the time too. The way I see it, if I'm in front, I have the right to continue - a car shouldn't come from behind me to turn left and cut me off. This has happened to me before.

Equally, if a car is in front, they should have right of way when making a turn. It's also worth noting that undertaking moving vehicles is stupid and dangerous.

Totally agree with you on this mcmoustache.

CardBordWindow

Monty Burnz wrote: »

It is, but bike riders will rarely do so on a roundabout (cars are faster) and will rarely do so at a junction as they are prone to injury when pulling such suicidal moves deliberately. It can arise if a car outbreaks a bike and the rider has nowhere to go before the driver cuts inside him.

Yeah, but then you're at the mercy of random door opening. I've seen this too. :eek:

That doesn't just happen if you're on the left of a stationary car! Passengers/The driver come out on the right too! I've had a few close ones!:eek:

meanmachine3

in a recent poll college green was deemed to be the most dangerous place for cyclists in the country and if it is they've only themselves to blame. when it comes to the rules of the road very few seem to obey them. i see them racing down the quays on a daily basis.i'd go as far to say in that only about 3/100 actually obey a red light. one of the things i was taught when learning to drive was " before or after never with/inbetween" yet cyclists dont seem to comprehend this. this is especially worse when driving buses around the city. you'd swear they were made of rubber the way alot of cyclists treat them.

bk

tarwad wrote: »

Now thats what my friend asked me and i couldn't phrase it properly. Thanks Dermo.
What happens when a cyclist is hit in such a situation?

It is still mostly the fault of the driver. Courts take a dime view of drivers not being aware of their surroundings and in full control of their vehicle. Drivers are supposed to drive in such a manner as to be aware of everything going on around them and to be ready to stop and deal with any situation.

This includes children running out in front of you (e.g. if you see children on the footpath in front of you, slow down, watch them and be ready to quickly stop) or cyclists doing dangerous and stupid things.

The responsibility is placed on the driver as they are operating a large and dangerous piece of machinery, which means they are responsible for using it safely.

In the case of a cyclist cycling up the inside of you and then hitting you side on as you turn left, the driver is still responsible as the driver obviously didn't check his or her side mirrors to see the oncoming cyclists and predict that the cyclist might do a silly thing and come up your left hand side.

This situation can be made worse if you weren't indicating or if their was a cycle path on the left hand side of the road (even if it ended a little ways back from the roundabout)?

Also there is the issue that the driver is in serious trouble for leaving the scene of an accident, a particularly serious offense. How the accident happened is irrelevant to this issue.

I say all this as a cyclist, pedestrian and driver.

Dermo

bk wrote: »

Also there is the issue that the driver is in serious trouble for leaving the scene of an accident, a particularly serious offense. How the accident happened is irrelevant to this issue.

I agree with most of what you said but this bit especially. Nobody ever has a legitimate excuse for leaving the scene of an accident.

meanmachine3

bk wrote: »

It is still mostly the fault of the driver. Courts take a dime view of drivers not being aware of their surroundings and in full control of their vehicle. Drivers are supposed to drive in such a manner as to be aware of everything going on around them and to be ready to stop and deal with any situation.

This includes children running out in front of you (e.g. if you see children on the footpath in front of you, slow down, watch them and be ready to quickly stop) or cyclists doing dangerous and stupid things.

The responsibility is placed on the driver as they are operating a large and dangerous piece of machinery, which means they are responsible for using it safely.

In the case of a cyclist cycling up the inside of you and then hitting you side on as you turn left, the driver is still responsible as the driver obviously didn't check his or her side mirrors to see the oncoming cyclists and predict that the cyclist might do a silly thing and come up your left hand side.

This situation can be made worse if you weren't indicating or if their was a cycle path on the left hand side of the road (even if it ended a little ways back from the roundabout)?

Also there is the issue that the driver is in serious trouble for leaving the scene of an accident, a particularly serious offense. How the accident happened is irrelevant to this issue.

I say all this as a cyclist, pedestrian and driver.

the line has to be drawn somewhere where accountability is an issue. the motorist cannot be blamed all the time when a cyclist is hit by a moving vehicle.i see cyclists weaving in out of traffic without looking.breaking red lights and turning corners without looking. in fact most of the time they dont or cant be bothered with anyone else but themselves whether it's moving vehicles or pedestrians. i wonder how many pedestrians have been badly injured by cyclists. now i have seem a few minor accidents involving cyclists and pedestrians but nothing to serious as of yet.

mcmoustache

Monty Burnz wrote: »

It is, but bike riders will rarely do so on a roundabout (cars are faster) and will rarely do so at a junction as they are prone to injury when pulling such suicidal moves deliberately. It can arise if a car outbreaks a bike and the rider has nowhere to go before the driver cuts inside him.

I've never seen it at a roundabout so it's probably pretty rare, as you say. I think that the more common case would be the junctions. In my own experience in Dublin City, I see plenty of cyclists pulling the suicidal moves. Whether it's undertaking a car that's about to turn left or cycling along a car, I think that some aren't checking the car's indicators. Lots of cars don't indicate so I think it's best not to try either maneuver anyway.

Cars coming from behind and turning left, is another matter and there isn't a lot that a bike can do about it except to record the reg and report the incident if they haven't crashed into the side of the car. I think that a lot of drivers underestimate the speed of bikes and this makes them think that they can pull off that kind of left turn. I consider it to be very dangerous driving.

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Yeah, but then you're at the mercy of random door opening. I've seen this too. :eek:

My biggest fear on the road as I've had three close calls. Fortunately, if the cars are stationary, chances are that you'll be approaching red lights. Hopefully you'll be approaching them slowly if some eejit fails to look behind before opening the door. It's the driver doors that I fear most but I try to give them a metre of space when I can, otherwise I slow down.

mcmoustache

meanmachine3 wrote: »

in a recent poll college green was deemed to be the most dangerous place for cyclists in the country and if it is they've only themselves to blame. when it comes to the rules of the road very few seem to obey them. i see them racing down the quays on a daily basis.i'd go as far to say in that only about 3/100 actually obey a red light. one of the things i was taught when learning to drive was " before or after never with/inbetween" yet cyclists dont seem to comprehend this. this is especially worse when driving buses around the city. you'd swear they were made of rubber the way alot of cyclists treat them.

I have found college green to be perfectly safe when done right. By that I mean, when you cycle as though you were in a car.

A cyclist should take an appropriate lane (forget about the piecemeal cycle lane) and follow the rules of the road for turning or switching lanes. The traffic around there is slow enough for a cyclist to match the speed of the cars.

Regarding lights, while your number might be wrong, I don't think that you're too far off the mark. Pedestrian lights are routinely ignored and lights at junctions are treated like stop-signs. I'd like to see this punished more. It gives the respectful cyclists a bad name. Never mind that a pedestrian shouldn't have to be looking out for cyclists when they have a green light.

mcmoustache

meanmachine3 wrote: »

i see cyclists weaving in out of traffic without looking.breaking red lights and turning corners without looking.

I'd like to see the bicycles of these cyclist confiscated and returned only after 10 hours of safe-cycling lessons at the cyclist's expense.

Back on topic, I can see bk's point about the driver having to be more aware. The driver is in charge of a ton of steel so he should be more cautious as he can cause a lot of damage to others. A cyclist mostly damages himself. Then again, for that reason, I suppose a cyclist should be more careful for his own safety. A driver has to be more concerned for the safety of others (vehicles, pedestrians and cyclists).

dearg lady

meanmachine3 wrote: »

the line has to be drawn somewhere where accountability is an issue. the motorist cannot be blamed all the time when a cyclist is hit by a moving vehicle.i see cyclists weaving in out of traffic without looking.breaking red lights and turning corners without looking. in fact most of the time they dont or cant be bothered with anyone else but themselves whether it's moving vehicles or pedestrians. i wonder how many pedestrians have been badly injured by cyclists. now i have seem a few minor accidents involving cyclists and pedestrians but nothing to serious as of yet.

no and indeed that is not the case in this country AFAIK.
I agree some cyclists cycle in a dangerous manner, I see it everyday myself, but disagree with this 'in fact most of the time they dont or cant be bothered with anyone else but themselves whether it's moving vehicles or pedestrians'. There is a certain percentage of dangerous cyclists but most cycle safely, and the ones I see who are poor cyclists generally only ever endanger themselves, not others.

galwaycyclist

mcmoustache wrote: »

Cars coming from behind and turning left, is another matter and there isn't a lot that a bike can do about it

Hmm beg to differ. The standard advice for cyclists passing side roads is to check behind in advance of the junction, having assessed the nature and speed of following traffic, negotiate your way into a more prominent road position, and stay in this position crossing the mouth of the junction and until clear of the danger area.

This forestalls
Cars pulling out from the side without yielding
Cars pulling accross from ahead without yielding
Overtake and turns

corktina

Absolutely. There is nothing to say cyclists have to ride in the gutter. They are entitled to the full half width of the road if it is safer for them to use it all.

bk

meanmachine3 wrote: »

the line has to be drawn somewhere where accountability is an issue. the motorist cannot be blamed all the time when a cyclist is hit by a moving vehicle. ...

Well simply put, that isn't the way courts view it and it is something all drivers need to keep in mind when operating a vehicle.

That isn't to excuse bad cyclists, but for the OP's question, it is the reality.

dearg lady

mcmoustache wrote: »

Regarding lights, while your number might be wrong, I don't think that you're too far off the mark. Pedestrian lights are routinely ignored and lights at junctions are treated like stop-signs. I'd like to see this punished more. It gives the respectful cyclists a bad name. Never mind that a pedestrian shouldn't have to be looking out for cyclists when they have a green light.

tbh, I don't think it makes sense for cyclists to adhere to the same rules as cars at pedestrian lights, and would advocate a change in law.

mikemac

meanmachine3 wrote: »

in a recent poll college green was deemed to be the most dangerous place for cyclists in the country

College Green is fine, as said you just have to be very assertive and cycle it like a car.
Take the lane and hold it, traffic isn't that fast so you should be able to do it.

It's when you are unconfident and cars are squeezing past you that issues can happen.

McTigs wrote: »

The whole left turn issue is a massive failing on the part driving instruction. There is a massive responsibilty on the part of the cyclist not to take risks and undertaking a car indicating left is the height of reckless stupidity, however, the lack of awareness on the part of drivers is shocking in city centre traffic ( i live in galway). Cars actually overtake you in order to cut across you .*

I was cycling around amsterdam a few months ago and it was unbelievable. if a car is 50 yards ahead of you about to make a turn they would stop and wait for you to pass first. Why? cos that is what they are trained to do

When I doing motorcycle lessons it was drilled into us to do a "lifesaver", a quick check over the shoulder when changing lanes and just for situations like this.

It's long ago since I learned to drive a car. I know bus drivers check their left wing mirror before turning left but I'd say most car drivers don't so they turn left and if you are level with their backwheel they just don't see you. I hate to be in that position so if I'm matching their speed I won't stay by their backwheel, just move up or back off.

Bit offtopic but I were Minister, I'd put learner drivers on a bike or moped and take them around their town for an hour or two and see how those on two wheel manage and show them hazards
Cycling and being on a motorcycle made me a better car driver, hope that makes sense

Monty Burnz

meanmachine3 wrote: »

i see cyclists weaving in out of traffic without looking.breaking red lights and turning corners without looking. in fact most of the time they dont or cant be bothered with anyone else but themselves whether it's moving vehicles or pedestrians.

I find this kind of post frankly bizarre. The only cyclists who I can think of who might just about fit the description here some of the time are bike couriers, for whom time is money. The cycling commuters that I see (and once was) and those just pottering about without wanting to further clog the roads with car traffic simply do not behave in the dangerous way that you describe, out of pure self preservation if nothing else. I wish everybody had to spend some time cycling in a city - it would open their eyes and raise the standard of driving dramatically, and we might have far fewer of these fairytale posts of kamikaze cyclists with no regard for their own safety.

Edit: as for breaking red lights, I would do that sometimes when on a bike, much as I used to walk across the road without a green man if there were no cars coming. I see no difference. I would not cross pedestrian lights if I was cycling on the road and pedestrians were crossing in front of me, however. That's dangerous.

meanmachine3

dearg lady wrote: »

tbh, I don't think it makes sense for cyclists to adhere to the same rules as cars at pedestrian lights, and would advocate a change in law.

the law is already there. there is nothing to change.
Cycling safely
You must obey the rules applying at traffic lights, pedestrian crossings, pelican crossings and zebra crossings

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I find this kind of post frankly bizarre. The only cyclists who I can think of who might just about fit the description here some of the time are bike couriers, for whom time is money. The cycling commuters that I see (and once was) and those just pottering about without wanting to further clog the roads with car traffic simply do not behave in the dangerous way that you describe, out of pure self preservation if nothing else. I wish everybody had to spend some time cycling in a city - it would open their eyes and raise the standard of driving dramatically, and we might have far fewer of these fairytale posts of kamikaze cyclists with no regard for their own safety.

Edit: as for breaking red lights, I would do that sometimes when on a bike, much as I used to walk across the road without a green man if there were no cars coming. I see no difference. I would not cross pedestrian lights if I was cycling on the road and pedestrians were crossing in front of me, however. That's dangerous.

it's alot more rampant than you think. as i bus driver i see the so called kamikaze cyclists as you call them all the time. the closer i get to the city centre the worse it gets. there are those that have the full racing gear on trying to get to work and the way they cycle you'd swear they were in the tour de france. then you've those that over take the slower cyclists with out so much as looking to see where other road users are. as for side streets what are they when it comes to cyclists. alot of cyclists in my eyes have tunnel vision. it is very rare for a cyclist to look when emerging from a side street.
for those of you that cycle and dont know the rules of the road regarding cyclists. here they are.
http://www.rulesoftheroad.ie/rules-for-pedestrians-cyclists-motorcyclists/cyclists/cyclists_cycling-safely.html
for the use of roundabouts.
http://www.rulesoftheroad.ie/rules-for-pedestrians-cyclists-motorcyclists/cyclists/cyclists_on-roundabouts.html

Monty Burnz

meanmachine3 wrote: »

as i bus driver i see the so called kamikaze cyclists as you call them all the time. the closer i get to the city centre the worse it gets. there are those that have the full racing gear on trying to get to work and the way they cycle you'd swear they were in the tour de france.

Ok, if you are driving busses around the city I'll cut you some slack on this - you can be forgiven for confirmation bias if you are focussing on some loons the whole time, trying not to kill them. But, unless things have changed in the last 5 years, a very low percentage of cyclists are commuting in 'full racing gear'. I used to wear my normal clothes, as most others did, unless it was raining. Then I'd just wear waterproofs.

Only three times did I nearly crash over a period of 3 years or so (that I can recall). Once was beside the Grand Canal in the morning where a cyclist in front of me had an accident and I nearly went into the back of her. Another time in Upper Rathmines a car pulled out of a side road right in front of me, turning right. I put my bike in front of the car rather than smashing into the side, and they deigned to break. It was going to be bad for me whichever way a collision happened, but it was averted.

The third time, the most serious, was cycling downhill from Palmerston Avenue direction between Rathmines and Ranelagh on a wet morning. I was cycling pretty fast, maybe 30mph, about 25 metres behind a car that had passed me (which should have been plenty of time to slow down, if the car behaved normally). The road was otherwise clear (other than parked cars) and there were no junctions coming up.

Unfortunately, the driver suddenly stood on his breaks for some reason in the middle of the road (perhaps he had passed a house he was looking for?) and suddenly I was travelling 30mph faster than him with no possibility of stopping on the wet road. I locked up both wheels and skidded for about 15 metres (change of underwear territory) and would have hit the guy except I finally let go of the breaks and had shed enough speed to just about be able to steer around him.

The last case, I'd be tempted to say was nobody's fault, but the fact is that guy had just passed me and must have known I was moving at speed behind him. If he were a cyclist, he'd have known the impossibility of me stopping in time. He wouldn't have done it in front of a 18 wheeler, that's for sure.

foggy_lad

Any bad behaviour I have seen in the City Centre by Cyclists(running red lights, not looking at junctions, gnoring pedestrian crossings etc) has been from those who are cycling to or from work, usually those cycling home who are trying to justify their daily cycle by getting home as fast as possible so they can say it is xx minutes faster than the bus/train/car. they are also cycling on bicycles which are not suited to city streets and are usually in suits without any helmet or even bicycle clips! they are usually using a type of hybrid mountain bike which would be perfect on some dirt track with their chunky tyres but useless on city streets, they should invest in a proper commuter bicycle more suited to the job.

These people feel that because they are no longer motorists and because they just joined the green brigade that the normal rules of the road do not apply to them and freely put others at great risk of death or injury by cycling into the path of cars trucks and busses to gain the upper hand at junctions and traffic lights.

any claims for damages or compensation made by these people must take into account their own actions and their regard for their own safety and that of other road users!

Dermo

foggy_lad wrote: »

Any bad behaviour I have seen in the City Centre by Cyclists(running red lights, not looking at junctions, gnoring pedestrian crossings etc) has been from those who are cycling to or from work, usually those cycling home who are trying to justify their daily cycle by getting home as fast as possible so they can say it is xx minutes faster than the bus/train/car. they are also cycling on bicycles which are not suited to city streets and are usually in suits without any helmet or even bicycle clips! they are usually using a type of hybrid mountain bike which would be perfect on some dirt track with their chunky tyres but useless on city streets, they should invest in a proper commuter bicycle more suited to the job.

These people feel that because they are no longer motorists and because they just joined the green brigade that the normal rules of the road do not apply to them and freely put others at great risk of death or injury by cycling into the path of cars trucks and busses to gain the upper hand at junctions and traffic lights.

any claims for damages or compensation made by these people must take into account their own actions and their regard for their own safety and that of other road users!

I agree that they are the cause of the majority of problems involving cyclists but isn't the same true for drivers?

Most accidents are caused by impatient drivers on their way to work/home/etc trying to get there as fast as possible.
If you are going to differentiate between the types of cyclists and the ratio of accidents then you should also differentiate between motorists as well.

foggy_lad

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Ok, if you are driving busses around the city I'll cut you some slack on this - you can be forgiven for confirmation bias if you are focussing on some loons the whole time, trying not to kill them. But, unless things have changed in the last 5 years, a very low percentage of cyclists are commuting in 'full racing gear'. I used to wear my normal clothes, as most others did, unless it was raining. Then I'd just wear waterproofs.

Only three times did I nearly crash over a period of 3 years or so (that I can recall). Once was beside the Grand Canal in the morning where a cyclist in front of me had an accident and I nearly went into the back of her.

Would you not think you were too close to her if you had trouble stopping in time?

Another time in Upper Rathmines a car pulled out of a side road right in front of me, turning right. I put my bike in front of the car rather than smashing into the side, and they deigned to break. It was going to be bad for me whichever way a collision happened, but it was averted.

Again cyclists really need to be as watchful as other road users and take action where and when necessary, as a car driver you are supposed to expect the unexpected, why should it be different for cyclists?

The third time, the most serious, was cycling downhill from Palmerston Avenue direction between Rathmines and Ranelagh on a wet morning. I was cycling pretty fast, maybe 30mph, about 25 metres behind a car that had passed me (which should have been plenty of time to slow down, if the car behaved normally). The road was otherwise clear (other than parked cars) and there were no junctions coming up.

Unfortunately, the driver suddenly stood on his breaks for some reason in the middle of the road (perhaps he had passed a house he was looking for?) and suddenly I was travelling 30mph faster than him with no possibility of stopping on the wet road. I locked up both wheels and skidded for about 15 metres (change of underwear territory) and would have hit the guy except I finally let go of the breaks and had shed enough speed to just about be able to steer around him.

The last case, I'd be tempted to say was nobody's fault, but the fact is that guy had just passed me and must have known I was moving at speed behind him. If he were a cyclist, he'd have known the impossibility of me stopping in time. He wouldn't have done it in front of a 18 wheeler, that's for sure.

This last case is simple enough, by your own admision you were travelling downhill at speed "with no possibility of stopping on the wet road". this was entirely your fault! had you adjusted your speed from the top of the hill you would have had some control over your bicycle! The person who passed you had no reason to be concerned for your speed once they had passed you as you had a responsibility to control your speed for the conditions. How was someone in a car supposed to have known or even cared how hard it was for you to slow down when you had been speeding down a hill in the wet and had no brakes and no control?

Monty Burnz

foggy_lad wrote: »

Any bad behaviour I have seen in the City Centre by Cyclists(running red lights, not looking at junctions, gnoring pedestrian crossings etc) has been from those who are cycling to or from work, usually those cycling home who are trying to justify their daily cycle by getting home as fast as possible so they can say it is xx minutes faster than the bus/train/car.

Either you have done thousands of astonishingly honest interviews with these people, or you are trying to cast them in a bad light with pretend knowledge. I think I know which it is.

foggy_lad wrote: »

they are also cycling on bicycles which are not suited to city streets and are usually in suits without any helmet or even bicycle clips! they are usually using a type of hybrid mountain bike which would be perfect on some dirt track with their chunky tyres but useless on city streets, they should invest in a proper commuter bicycle more suited to the job.

Why is a hybrid/mountain bike not suited to the job? Because of the higher weight and rolling-resistance which slows them down? Or the greater tyre road contact area that lets them stop faster?
I'd agree that a commuter bike would be better: but principally because you can go faster more easily. Not sure that supports the point you are trying to make though. And what of it, if they don't wear helmets? You know that this is a controversial area with arguments both for and against? You understand that some drivers subconsciously treat cyclists wearing helmets as if they are in suits of armour and take greater risks with their safety?

foggy_lad wrote: »

These people feel that because they are no longer motorists and because they just joined the green brigade that the normal rules of the road do not apply to them and freely put others at great risk of death or injury by cycling into the path of cars trucks and busses to gain the upper hand at junctions and traffic lights.

You don't stop being a motorist once you start (or resume) riding a bike. You are both a cyclist and a motorist, and you have a much better understanding of the issues (safety and otherwise) relating to both. Perhaps you should try it? And your whole attitude to driving seems confrontational, aggressive and bizarre - how the hell does one 'get the upper hand' at a junction?? Are you a competitive driver, by any chance? Do you hate it when people overtake you?

foggy_lad wrote: »

any claims for damages or compensation made by these people must take into account their own actions and their regard for their own safety and that of other road users!

They do. HTH.

foggy_lad

Dermo wrote: »

I agree that they are the cause of the majority of problems involving cyclists but isn't the same true for drivers?

Most accidents are caused by impatient drivers on their way to work/home/etc trying to get there as fast as possible.
If you are going to differentiate between the types of cyclists and the ratio of accidents then you should also differentiate between motorists as well.

Many accidents involving cyclists are the fault of the cyclists but because the courts and insurance companies see the car driver as ultimately the one responsible there is rarely any action taken against the bad cyclists. and yes there are more bad drivers than cyclists but i say only because there are far more cars than bikes on the streets.

As well as bad cyclists i have also seen people driving along with one hand on the wheel and their eyes and other hand firmly on the mobile phone between their legs! people caught texting should have their phone and car impounded for a month, NO exceptions! and women in the mornings putting on their make up and you can see they are expert at doing it while steering with their knees, they do it so often they even have certain stretches of roads which are better than others for mascara lippy etc.

Monty Burnz

foggy_lad wrote: »

Would you not think you were too close to her if you had trouble stopping in time?

No. I avoided her, even though her accident was completely unexpected.

foggy_lad wrote: »

Again cyclists really need to be as watchful as other road users and take action where and when necessary, as a car driver you are supposed to expect the unexpected, why should it be different for cyclists?

Of course they do. And I am a car driver.

foggy_lad wrote: »

This last case is simple enough, by your own admision you were travelling downhill at speed "with no possibility of stopping on the wet road". this was entirely your fault! had you adjusted your speed from the top of the hill you would have had some control over your bicycle! The person who passed you had no reason to be concerned for your speed once they had passed you as you had a responsibility to control your speed for the conditions. How was someone in a car supposed to have known or even cared how hard it was for you to slow down when you had been speeding down a hill in the wet and had no brakes and no control?

Oh dear oh dear. Try this: overtake a lorry on a hill going downwards. Slam on the brakes and stop in the middle of the road. Enjoy the impact. And then explain this line of reasoning to the Gardai. Then explain it to the judge. You would be laughed out of the court.