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DART-Airport Spur From Clongriffin

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Comments



  • dowlingm wrote: »
    Tunnelling under an active line would be tricky, I'd say... not to mention ruinously expensive.

    Tricky yes, but I've seen road projects which did just this (i.e. tunnelling under an active railway). There was some disruption, usually at weekends, but for most of the time the tunnelling work continued while the trains rattled along above.

    Not sure that any of the projects I've seen were ruinously expensive either. Doubtless not cheap, but not enormously expensive either.

    I haven't looked closely at the IE plans for the Clongriffen spur, but presumably - in their 200m Euro figure - they've figured out a way to avoid conflict between "Northern line" trains (ie Malahide, Drogheda, Dundalk and Belfast trains) and "Airport trains".

    No reason to see why IE's method of avoiding this conflict should be any more expensive around Killester or Harmonstown than it would be around Clongriffen.




  • It comes back to the question ... do we need an airport direct rail link?

    I would say no, buses are doing and will do the job very well.

    The building of this link could influence future project routing, possibly detrimentally.

    The RPA had an obsession with terminating at the airport and got over it, CIE need to get over it as do the folks in the Department.

    I say preserve the route of the line and it's something that can be reviewed further down the line.




  • Frankly, building any rail link is better than building none.




  • Sure it'll do won't it.




  • dowlingm wrote: »
    Some three tracking would make a big difference but also sorting out the 2-track bottleneck between Fairview and Connolly.

    is it not already 3 track between Fairview and Connolly? there are 4 tracks on the Tolka bridge (though one is blocked)
    Wild Bill wrote: »
    Frankly, building any rail link is better than building none.

    why?

    The Port Tunnel and M50 upgrade have transformed access to the airport, you can now run a reasonably reliable express bus service from the city centre or anywhere else in the country, and Aircoach, Dublin Bus, Bus Eireann and others are doing just this. Those 2 projects cost €1.5 billion between them. Spending another €200m on a rail link that just serves the airport is not better than building none.


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  • loyatemu wrote: »
    is it not already 3 track between Fairview and Connolly? there are 4 tracks on the Tolka bridge (though one is blocked)
    Look at the section which runs parallel to Stoney Road and West Road in Google Maps - it narrows to 2 there. Expanding that will be dicey as it's on an embankment.




  • It's all a matter of numbers people. Dublin airport gets approx 20million passengers a year. It is open 364 days a year. Assuming this was spread evenly through the year that would mean 55,000 passengers a day. This doesn't happen, there are peak days, but for the purposes of this example we will assume that on the busiest day of the year 70,000 people pass through the airport.

    The airport is open 18 hours a day ( for flight arrivals/departures). If journeys were evenly distributed over the day that would mean just under 4,000 passengers an hour on the busiest day of the year. There is a peak hour, so for simplification we will call it 5,000 passengers on the peak hour for the peak day.

    Lets say the target is that 50% of people using the airport should use public transport. (I think currently 50% use private cars, the rest use rented cars, taxis and public transport). So that means that 2,500 need to be served by buses. We'll assume 1/3 of the people are using coaches to the provincial cities and 2/3 using Dublin bus/ Aircoach. That means approx 14 coaches and 25 local buses leave the airport every hour (assume 55 pax on intercity coach, 60 on aircoach and 85 on Dublin bus). Or one coach every 4 mins and one bus every 2.4 mins. It would be do-able but very difficult to achieve these frequencies with buses alone. This is why rail is proposed, not because of vanity projects or delusions of grandeur, but simple numbers!

    50% of passengers using public transport is not an unreasonable aim. These figures are just loose estimates, I haven't even considered staff numbers. It may seem to be working well now, but it does not leave much wiggle room. All is needs is for the economy to improve, the airport to get busier and the whole house of cards comes tumbling down. Policy is to shift more people away from private cars to public transport, that is not achievable currently.

    We suffer from a lack of ambition in this country. Some may call the Luas a success because it is busy, I think that just proves that it was massively underspecced. Don't let the same mistakes be made again.

    Take your own more detailed look at the numbers and see if buses will suffice. Get a map of Dublin city, draw a straight line from the city centre to the airport, then look at the Clongriffen spur and tell me that something like Metro North isn't needed.




  • It's all a matter of numbers people. Dublin airport gets approx 20million passengers a year. It is open 364 days a year. Assuming this was spread evenly through the year that would mean 55,000 passengers a day. This doesn't happen, there are peak days, but for the purposes of this example we will assume that on the busiest day of the year 70,000 people pass through the airport.

    The airport is open 18 hours a day ( for flight arrivals/departures). If journeys were evenly distributed over the day that would mean just under 4,000 passengers an hour on the busiest day of the year. There is a peak hour, so for simplification we will call it 5,000 passengers on the peak hour for the peak day.

    Lets say the target is that 50% of people using the airport should use public transport. (I think currently 50% use private cars, the rest use rented cars, taxis and public transport). So that means that 2,500 need to be served by buses. We'll assume 1/3 of the people are using coaches to the provincial cities and 2/3 using Dublin bus/ Aircoach. That means approx 14 coaches and 25 local buses leave the airport every hour (assume 55 pax on intercity coach, 60 on aircoach and 85 on Dublin bus). Or one coach every 4 mins and one bus every 2.4 mins. It would be do-able but very difficult to achieve these frequencies with buses alone. This is why rail is proposed, not because of vanity projects or delusions of grandeur, but simple numbers!

    50% of passengers using public transport is not an unreasonable aim. These figures are just loose estimates, I haven't even considered staff numbers. It may seem to be working well now, but it does not leave much wiggle room. All is needs is for the economy to improve, the airport to get busier and the whole house of cards comes tumbling down. Policy is to shift more people away from private cars to public transport, that is not achievable currently.

    We suffer from a lack of ambition in this country. Some may call the Luas a success because it is busy, I think that just proves that it was massively underspecced. Don't let the same mistakes be made again.

    Take your own more detailed look at the numbers and see if buses will suffice. Get a map of Dublin city, draw a straight line from the city centre to the airport, then look at the Clongriffen spur and tell me that something like Metro North isn't needed.
    This long winded essay is a nice example of why virtually all the posts on this forum are hot air.
    In fact while 20m passengers might used the airport per annum............in reality.........meeters and greeters (and workers) amount to more than 20m per annum (extra)

    Fine Gael are small time shopkeepers and farmers who know as much about public transport as my dog knows about sanskrit. Labour are a band of trade union idlers who wouldn't be able to think bigger than a credit union loan.
    That is why public transport will go nowhere under this gov with sweet talking spoofer Varadkar talking through his arse posing as a transport minister. Snake oil saleman might work better for him.




  • chooochooo wrote: »
    This long winded essay is a nice example of why virtually all the posts on this forum are hot air.
    In fact while 20m passengers might used the airport per annum............in reality.........meeters and greeters (and workers) amount to more than 20m per annum (extra)

    Fine Gael are small time shopkeepers and farmers who know as much about public transport as my dog knows about sanskrit. Labour are a band of trade union idlers who wouldn't be able to think bigger than a credit union loan.
    That is why public transport will go nowhere under this gov with sweet talking spoofer Varadkar talking through his arse posing as a transport minister. Snake oil saleman might work better for him.

    Well, that wasn't a very helpful response, was it?




  • It's all a matter of numbers people. Dublin airport gets approx 20million passengers a year. It is open 364 days a year. Assuming this was spread evenly through the year that would mean 55,000 passengers a day. This doesn't happen, there are peak days, but for the purposes of this example we will assume that on the busiest day of the year 70,000 people pass through the airport.

    The airport is open 18 hours a day ( for flight arrivals/departures). If journeys were evenly distributed over the day that would mean just under 4,000 passengers an hour on the busiest day of the year. There is a peak hour, so for simplification we will call it 5,000 passengers on the peak hour for the peak day.

    Lets say the target is that 50% of people using the airport should use public transport. (I think currently 50% use private cars, the rest use rented cars, taxis and public transport). So that means that 2,500 need to be served by buses. We'll assume 1/3 of the people are using coaches to the provincial cities and 2/3 using Dublin bus/ Aircoach. That means approx 14 coaches and 25 local buses leave the airport every hour (assume 55 pax on intercity coach, 60 on aircoach and 85 on Dublin bus). Or one coach every 4 mins and one bus every 2.4 mins. It would be do-able but very difficult to achieve these frequencies with buses alone. This is why rail is proposed, not because of vanity projects or delusions of grandeur, but simple numbers!

    50% of passengers using public transport is not an unreasonable aim. These figures are just loose estimates, I haven't even considered staff numbers. It may seem to be working well now, but it does not leave much wiggle room. All is needs is for the economy to improve, the airport to get busier and the whole house of cards comes tumbling down. Policy is to shift more people away from private cars to public transport, that is not achievable currently.

    We suffer from a lack of ambition in this country. Some may call the Luas a success because it is busy, I think that just proves that it was massively underspecced. Don't let the same mistakes be made again.

    Take your own more detailed look at the numbers and see if buses will suffice. Get a map of Dublin city, draw a straight line from the city centre to the airport, then look at the Clongriffen spur and tell me that something like Metro North isn't needed.

    I couldn't agree with you more. As I pointed out in the first page of this thread, the population, amenities, colleges, interchanges, shopping areas and of course, the countries main airport are the icing on the cake for the Metro North business case. It is badly needed, plain and simple. A half-assed alternative such as the Clongriffin DART spur will not suffice because the people between Ballymun and town will be left out of the loop. Not to mention, the services and shopping areas. Yet again, common sense has escaped this country.


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  • Lets say the target is that 50% of people using the airport should use public transport. (I think currently 50% use private cars, the rest use rented cars, taxis and public transport). So that means that 2,500 need to be served by buses. We'll assume 1/3 of the people are using coaches to the provincial cities and 2/3 using Dublin bus/ Aircoach. That means approx 14 coaches and 25 local buses leave the airport every hour (assume 55 pax on intercity coach, 60 on aircoach and 85 on Dublin bus). Or one coach every 4 mins and one bus every 2.4 mins. It would be do-able but very difficult to achieve these frequencies with buses alone. This is why rail is proposed, not because of vanity projects or delusions of grandeur, but simple numbers!
    Dublin Bus now operates 8 bus routes to the airport in total providing 30 trips per hour throughout the day. At peak 42 services operate in the morning and 45 in the evening, almost a bus every minute indicating a frequent Dublin Bus airport service. More than 600 bus movements operate to and from Dublin Airport per day.

    And that is just DB, so it is already been achieved and surpassed by bus today.

    I'm not saying the Airport shouldn't have a rail link, it should.

    I'm just saying there is no point to a DART spur that is going to run just every 15 minutes and take longer to get to the city center then a bus!!

    What is needed in the long term is Metro North, which will serve many people, not just the airport and they should also reserve the DART spur alignment for future use when DART Underground and quad tracking is complete and it will make more sense.

    In the meantime lets not waste 300 million on this white elephant which could be better spent on Luas BXD or other projects.




  • bk wrote: »
    I'm not saying the Airport shouldn't have a rail link, it should.

    ...What is needed in the long term is Metro North

    Leaving aside everything else, if providing the airport with a rail service is the objective then it should be a quick, direct, express link to the city centre that also connects it to the national rail network. Neither of the crappy solutions on the table (Dart spur or MN) provide that. It should be something that connects Connolly, Heuston and the south city centre (maybe also north city centre).

    Given the airport's proximity to the northern line an option that would best satisfy such a criteria would be to plug it into northern line services northbound and southbound served by non-stop trains into Connolly. This would require quad-tracking of the northern line shared with Dart for capacity and a delta junction at the spur. It would also need supplementary services to make up a clockface 15 minute frequency (or more) where northern line Arrow or Enterprise services fall short. Services could be further reinforced by making Dublin Airport the terminus for Arklow and Wexford bound trains. The only thing missing from this is that Connolly is not a great location for the city centre and Heuston misses out.

    If you want to think radically about it IE should work on finding some way to consolidate its national rail termini in Dublin in the one location. Prefrabably one conveniently served by the metropolitan public transport infrastructure. Of course, all this is just an ideal scenario beyond the vision of anyone with responsibility for planning.




  • Wild Bill wrote: »
    Frankly, building any rail link is better than building none.

    But why would we if the passengers aren't there? The budget would be better used upgrading what is there already.
    Lets say the target is that 50% of people using the airport should use public transport. (I think currently 50% use private cars, the rest use rented cars, taxis and public transport). So that means that 2,500 need to be served by buses. We'll assume 1/3 of the people are using coaches to the provincial cities and 2/3 using Dublin bus/ Aircoach. That means approx 14 coaches and 25 local buses leave the airport every hour (assume 55 pax on intercity coach, 60 on aircoach and 85 on Dublin bus). Or one coach every 4 mins and one bus every 2.4 mins. It would be do-able but very difficult to achieve these frequencies with buses alone. This is why rail is proposed, not because of vanity projects or delusions of grandeur, but simple numbers!

    I would dispute those numbers. Look at it logically, a rail connection doesn't work for the majority of people based on the current rail network and the fact that it would mean that early departures and late arrivals would be out of the question. This would rule out many business travellers. Buses on the other hand can operate at a lower cost 24hours if necessary and reach more places

    For a family of four going on holiday, it makes far more sense logistically to travel in a car as it's an economical use of a car and means you can carry all your stuff. So car for them will trump all public transport.

    Employees at the airport? Most live within the vicinity of the airport, north Dublin and across into Meath. Rail would not be of any real advantage to them and they work shifts. After that the employees could be anywhere in the city and bus would be the only option.

    As desirable as it is, I don't think you'll convert anywhere near 50% of airport users and even if you could, bus still offers the most convenience and utility.




  • AngryLips wrote: »
    Leaving aside everything else, if providing the airport with a rail service is the objective then it should be a quick, direct, express link to the city centre that also connects it to the national rail network.

    But is that the goal? And should it be the goal?

    According to the report Dowlingm linked to above, only 1% of people take rail to get to the airport.

    Now obviously the airport doesn't have a rail link, but the report takes this into account and counts any journey that majority takes rail as a rail link. So for example if you got the train form Cork to Dublin and then a taxi or bus to the airport, it is counted as a rail journey, similarly with DART.

    However despite that only 1% of people take rail to get to the airport!! This shows very little demand for people to connect to the airport from mainline rail.

    The reality is it is just as quick, more convenient and definitely cheaper to get to Dublin Airport by modern direct non stop bus coach services.

    As an example, I recently traveled from the Airport to Dun Laoighare via Aircoach in 35 minutes at 7pm. Traveling by Dart to the airport would actually be slower!!

    Why spend all this money for a slower, less convenient service?




  • bk wrote: »
    However despite that only 1% of people take rail to get to the airport!! This shows very little demand for people to connect to the airport from mainline rail.

    Two reasons for this neither of which have anything to do with "very little demand"

    1: Many areas which have train links to Dublin also have coach services which serve Dublin Airport *directly*. Cork, Galway, Rosslare line, Ballina, Portlaoise, etc, etc. Why get a train (that may take longer than the coach) and transfer to another bus when you can just get a single bus? These may go to rail if a link opens, but never before.

    2: Most of the people who would use a rail link to the city centre are, erm, going to/from the city centre clearly. There is no rail setup that'd have them appear in the usage figures as stands.




  • Err, thanks for reinforcing my point!!
    MYOB wrote: »
    Two reasons for this neither of which have anything to do with "very little demand"

    1: Many areas which have train links to Dublin also have coach services which serve Dublin Airport *directly*. Cork, Galway, Rosslare line, Ballina, Portlaoise, etc, etc. Why get a train (that may take longer than the coach) and transfer to another bus when you can just get a single bus? These may go to rail if a link opens, but never before.

    You can currently get fast direct cheap bus services from all over the country to the airport.

    Why spend hundreds of millions to replicate an existing service which at best will only equal the buses in speed, at worst will more likely be slower, at much higher ticket prices?

    Oh and if you do this you will make the existing intercity and commuter services even slower due to the additional stop at the airport. Thus making them even less competitive just as they face competition from cheaper bus services.

    And all for the cost of 500 million * or so.

    * We are now talking about much more then a simple DART spur, which would involve quad tracking, etc. thus more expensive.

    Genius!!!
    MYOB wrote: »
    2: Most of the people who would use a rail link to the city centre are, erm, going to/from the city centre clearly. There is no rail setup that'd have them appear in the usage figures as stands.

    True and will that change with a Dart spur that will be slower then the current bus services to the airport?

    Metro North on the other hand, which would actually offer a faster service to the airport then the buses and would also service other areas and perhaps most importantly Swords, where so many airport employees work and a massive park and ride on the M50, might actually stand a chance in changing these usage figures.




  • bk wrote: »
    Err, thanks for reinforcing my point!!

    Its only reinforcing your point by you attempting to represent yourself as saying things you weren't. The rest of your spinning post isn't worth trying to answer.




  • MYOB wrote: »
    Its only reinforcing your point by you attempting to represent yourself as saying things you weren't. The rest of your spinning post isn't worth trying to answer.

    What? I think it is pretty clear what I've been saying.

    I was pointing out that there is little demand for an airport link from mainline rail services.

    You pointed out that the reason this is the case is because superior, faster, cheap bus services already meet that demand.

    I agreed with you and I asked the obvious question, why should we spend hundreds of millions building a mainline rail link to the airport if the demand is already been adequately meet by existing bus services?

    Pretty simple really.

    Anyone care to answer my question?




  • Dart Spur line from Clongriffin, well it should be build anyways, would allow for connectivity from the northern line, e.g. dundalk change at clongriffin then to the airport. The only issue I would have is that it would be a single use line really, since there is very little else it would serve.

    The Benefit of the Metro North is that it provides a transport service for Swords, Ballymun, DCU, Drumcondra as well as the airport. (it should connect tot he northern line also north of swords so as there would be connectivity with travellers from Belfast, Newry, Dundalk Drogheda who would use the airport!)

    Just do it.


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  • bk wrote: »
    But is that the goal? And should it be the goal?

    According to the report Dowlingm linked to above, only 1% of people take rail to get to the airport.

    I think if the objective is to connect Dublin Airport to rail then it should be plugged into the national rail network and not the urban transit network of the city. Let's face it, Dublin Airport is the unrivalled gateway to the island and no other airport, north or south of the border, even comes close to matching the number of air connections available here or the number of passengers that make use of it. It's about time Government policy recognises that instead of pandering to supporters of the Shannon stopover.

    Frankfurt, Schiphol and Charles de Gaulle airports are all connected to their national railway networks and also happen to be amongst the most successful hub airports in Europe. Berlin's new airport will also be similarly well connected once finished. It's not clear to me what the Government's aviation policy is, nor am I that familiar with the DAA's vision for the airport's development, but if it involves turning Dublin Airport into any kind of trans-Atlantic hub (as has been mooted before from time to time) then this would help in achieving that.

    bk wrote: »
    However despite that only 1% of people take rail to get to the airport!! This shows very little demand for people to connect to the airport from mainline rail.

    I would say that the demand is reflected in the fact that Bus Eireann have made the airport the second busiest point on its network outside of Busaras. Manchester Airport railway station, which serves an airport with similar passenger numbers sees about 8,000 people using it daily. That's not enough to justify its own dedicated service but that justification is not needed if you're serving the airport as part of rail services to other destinations across the country.




  • bk wrote: »
    What? I think it is pretty clear what I've been saying.

    I was pointing out that there is little demand for an airport link from mainline rail services.

    No, you claimed that existing figures, when there is no rail link to the airport be it mainline or metro, showed something that they could not show.

    You are, effectively, being the shopkeeper in the "I'm having to tell everyone there's no demand for that item!" skit.




  • AngryLips wrote: »
    I think if the objective is to connect Dublin Airport to rail then it should be plugged into the national rail network and not the urban transit network of the city.

    That is where you and I differ.

    I think connecting Dublin Airport to a highly integrated public transport system that brings people speedily into the city center and the third largest town in Ireland (Swords) where so many people work and many other large and busy locations, with multiple connections with DART, Luas and Commuter rail makes a great deal of sense.

    I believe a DART spur to the airport makes no sense at all and is a non starter.

    I believe linking the airport into the mainline train network makes a little more sense, but not at the cost of millions when most of the rail network is already adequately served by Bus services.

    Other then the general positive idea of integration, no one has given me a good reason why it is a good idea to spend hundreds of millions replicating what is already deliverd by coaches for free?
    AngryLips wrote: »
    Let's face it, Dublin Airport is the unrivalled gateway to the island and no other airport, north or south of the border, even comes close to matching the number of air connections available here or the number of passengers that make use of it. It's about time Government policy recognises that instead of pandering to supporters of the Shannon stopover.

    I couldn't agree more.

    Dublin Airport is within a few miles of 40% of the population of Ireland and is now connected by a superb, world class motorway network which puts the vast majority (probably 90%+) of the population of Ireland within 2 to 3 hours of Dublin Airport.

    It seems crazy to me that the government forces Aer Lingus to fly half empty flights from Shannon to New York every day, when Shannon is just two hours from Dublin Airport. Yet Aer Lingus and Ireland doesn't have a single direct flight to the west coast of the US from Dublin!!

    I mean look at all the west coast, silicon valley companies that are so important to our economy, Google, Facebook, Twitter, Oracle, etc. in Dublin, yet their managers and executives have to change in London to get to Dublin!!

    How incredibly embarrassing short sighted and stupid is that?

    Frankfurt, Schiphol and Charles de Gaulle airports are all connected to their national railway networks and also happen to be amongst the most successful hub airports in Europe. Berlin's new airport will also be similarly well connected once finished. It's not clear to me what the Government's aviation policy is, nor am I that familiar with the DAA's vision for the airport's development, but if it involves turning Dublin Airport into any kind of trans-Atlantic hub (as has been mooted before from time to time) then this would help in achieving that.

    I'm not sure a connection to mainline rail would make much difference.

    Business people are going to use cars. While value oriented travelers will use cheaper bus services that are just as fast as the rail service.

    IMO if we want to improve the utilisation of Dublin Airport then the following needs to happen:

    1) Extend the existing runways to regularly handle larger aircraft like the 747 and A380.
    2) Build a new runway.
    3) Reduce DAA fees.
    4) License at least two direct non stop bus services from Dublin Airport to each city in Ireland.
    5) Change AerLingus's Shannon to New York route to a Dublin to San Francisco route.
    6) Eventually build Metro North.
    7) Much longer down the line, if it makes financial sense connect the Airport with the mainline rail network. (In the meantime, reserve the route).
    8) Subsidise Aer Arann (or someone else with similarly sized aircraft) to serve Dublin/Cork, Dublin/Shannon, etc.

    I'm afraid you can't really compare airports like Frankfurt, Schiphol and Charles de Gaulle. These are major international hub airports, in the middle of Europe, which are plugged into one of the largest high speed rail network in the world.

    Dublin Airport could be a hub airport. But a different type of hub airport. A hub airport where trans-atlantic flights land and then the people connect on to other airports in Europe. These passengers won't care about how you can get and go from Dublin Airport as they will never leave the airport.

    Unlike other major European hub airports, Dublin will never have or need the same sort of internal connections. What Dublin Airport needs is to allow Irish people and tourists to quickly get to and from the airport primarily to Dublin City Center, secondly Swords area (employees) and thirdly the other cities of Ireland.

    The last I believe can be adequately served by bus coach and internal flights for the next few years.

    Question, would people think it would be better to spend 500 million connecting Dublin Airport to the rail network or spend a fraction of that money to subsidise internal flights between Irish airports?
    AngryLips wrote: »
    I would say that the demand is reflected in the fact that Bus Eireann have made the airport the second busiest point on its network outside of Busaras. Manchester Airport railway station, which serves an airport with similar passenger numbers sees about 8,000 people using it daily. That's not enough to justify its own dedicated service but that justification is not needed if you're serving the airport as part of rail services to other destinations across the country.

    I used Manchester Airport and rail station a few weeks ago. It seems to have it's own direct train service, certainly the one I was on was. Interesting to note that there was a maximum of 10 people on this train at about 3pm!!

    BTW the train station also acts as a bus station, which from what I could see the majority of people were taking. So I wonder does the 8000 daily passengers include bus passengers?

    I've just checked and you are correct Manchester serves 7,400 rail passengers per day. But also note the article shows that all but one service terminates at the airport.
    MYOB wrote:
    No, you claimed that existing figures, when there is no rail link to the airport be it mainline or metro, showed something that they could not show.

    But the existing figures take this into account and if you used the rail to get to Dublin, then it counted it as a rail passenger.

    As you say yourself, must people don't take rail to get to Dublin and by extent Dublin Airport as Dublin Airport is already more then adequately served by direct bus coach.

    So the question that no one has yet answered is if Dublin Airport is already adequately served by Bus Coach, why spend minimum of 300 million to give a service that won't change this situation at all.

    As you said yourself, people in Galway will get the Bus Coach as it will take them directly to the airport, but won't get rail as they would have to change.

    But the DART Spur won't change this one bit. People coming from Galway would still have to change twice. Once at Connolly onto Luas, then from Luas onto DART at Connolly.

    People coming from Belfast would be little better, they would have to get the train to Connolly and then change to DART, rather then just staying on a bus from Belfast which would actually be faster and cheaper.

    And all of this is going to cost us 300 million. But for what benefit?




  • QUOTE=bk;74756537]That is where you and I differ.

    I think connecting Dublin Airport to a highly integrated public transport system that brings people speedily into the city center and the third largest town in Ireland (Swords) where so many people work and many other large and busy locations, with multiple connections with DART, Luas and Commuter rail makes a great deal of sense.

    I believe a DART spur to the airport makes no sense at all and is a non starter.

    I believe linking the airport into the mainline train network makes a little more sense, but not at the cost of millions when most of the rail network is already adequately served by Bus services.

    Other then the general positive idea of integration, no one has given me a good reason why it is a good idea to spend hundreds of millions replicating what is already deliverd by coaches for free?



    I couldn't agree more.

    Dublin Airport is within a few miles of 40% of the population of Ireland and is now connected by a superb, world class motorway network which puts the vast majority (probably 90%+) of the population of Ireland within 2 to 3 hours of Dublin Airport.

    It seems crazy to me that the government forces Aer Lingus to fly half empty flights from Shannon to New York every day, when Shannon is just two hours from Dublin Airport. Yet Aer Lingus and Ireland doesn't have a single direct flight to the west coast of the US from Dublin!!

    I mean look at all the west coast, silicon valley companies that are so important to our economy, Google, Facebook, Twitter, Oracle, etc. in Dublin, yet their managers and executives have to change in London to get to Dublin!!

    How incredibly embarrassing short sighted and stupid is that?

    Frankfurt, Schiphol and Charles de Gaulle airports are all connected to their national railway networks and also happen to be amongst the most successful hub airports in Europe. Berlin's new airport will also be similarly well connected once finished. It's not clear to me what the Government's aviation policy is, nor am I that familiar with the DAA's vision for the airport's development, but if it involves turning Dublin Airport into any kind of trans-Atlantic hub (as has been mooted before from time to time) then this would help in achieving that.

    I'm not sure a connection to mainline rail would make much difference.

    Business people are going to use cars. While value oriented travelers will use cheaper bus services that are just as fast as the rail service.

    IMO if we want to improve the utilisation of Dublin Airport then the following needs to happen:

    1) Extend the existing runways to regularly handle larger aircraft like the 747 and A380.
    2) Build a new runway.
    3) Reduce DAA fees.
    4) License at least two direct non stop bus services from Dublin Airport to each city in Ireland.
    5) Change AerLingus's Shannon to New York route to a Dublin to San Francisco route.
    6) Eventually build Metro North.
    7) Much longer down the line, if it makes financial sense connect the Airport with the mainline rail network. (In the meantime, reserve the route).
    8) Subsidise Aer Arann (or someone else with similarly sized aircraft) to serve Dublin/Cork, Dublin/Shannon, etc.

    I'm afraid you can't really compare airports like Frankfurt, Schiphol and Charles de Gaulle. These are major international hub airports, in the middle of Europe, which are plugged into one of the largest high speed rail network in the world.

    Dublin Airport could be a hub airport. But a different type of hub airport. A hub airport where trans-atlantic flights land and then the people connect on to other airports in Europe. These passengers won't care about how you can get and go from Dublin Airport as they will never leave the airport.

    Unlike other major European hub airports, Dublin will never have or need the same sort of internal connections. What Dublin Airport needs is to allow Irish people and tourists to quickly get to and from the airport primarily to Dublin City Center, secondly Swords area (employees) and thirdly the other cities of Ireland.

    The last I believe can be adequately served by bus coach and internal flights for the next few years.

    Question, would people think it would be better to spend 500 million connecting Dublin Airport to the rail network or spend a fraction of that money to subsidise internal flights between Irish airports?



    I used Manchester Airport and rail station a few weeks ago. It seems to have it's own direct train service, certainly the one I was on was. Interesting to note that there was a maximum of 10 people on this train at about 3pm!!

    BTW the train station also acts as a bus station, which from what I could see the majority of people were taking. So I wonder does the 8000 daily passengers include bus passengers?

    I've just checked and you are correct Manchester serves 7,400 rail passengers per day. But also note the article shows that all but one service terminates at the airport.



    But the existing figures take this into account and if you used the rail to get to Dublin, then it counted it as a rail passenger.

    As you say yourself, must people don't take rail to get to Dublin and by extent Dublin Airport as Dublin Airport is already more then adequately served by direct bus coach.

    So the question that no one has yet answered is if Dublin Airport is already adequately served by Bus Coach, why spend minimum of 300 million to give a service that won't change this situation at all.

    As you said yourself, people in Galway will get the Bus Coach as it will take them directly to the airport, but won't get rail as they would have to change.

    But the DART Spur won't change this one bit. People coming from Galway would still have to change twice. Once at Connolly onto Luas, then from Luas onto DART at Connolly.

    People coming from Belfast would be little better, they would have to get the train to Connolly and then change to DART, rather then just staying on a bus from Belfast which would actually be faster and cheaper.

    And all of this is going to cost us 300 million. But for what benefit?[/QUOTE]

    The government are not forcing Aerlingus to do anything.

    SNN-JFK is very profitable in summer, and not half empty as you claim. It did lose money in January and February, which is why EI do not operate in those months anymore (their decision)

    You should also know that EI did operate to Los Angeles and San Francisco but pulled them during the financial crisis because they became unprofitable. They will probably return in time. Operating to the US west coast has nothing to do with a Shannon - New York route and it is disingenuous to suggest otherwise.




  • RUNWAY 16 - any chance you could edit your post so that we can see what you are quoting and what you are saying yourself?

    The distinction's a bit blurred!!




  • runway16 wrote: »
    I used Manchester Airport and rail station a few weeks ago. It seems to have it's own direct train service, certainly the one I was on was. Interesting to note that there was a maximum of 10 people on this train at about 3pm!!

    BTW the train station also acts as a bus station, which from what I could see the majority of people were taking. So I wonder does the 8000 daily passengers include bus passengers?

    I've just checked and you are correct Manchester serves 7,400 rail passengers per day. But also note the article shows that all but one service terminates at the airport.

    Of course Manchester Airport train station doesn't facilitate through services since it's a terminus of rail services much like Heuston station. Had you checked outbound services you'll see that there are train services to much of the north of England: http://www.manchesterairport.co.uk/manweb.nsf/All+Content/RailNetworkMaps

    I would say that Dublin airport is adequately served from Dublin city so, if it was just a question of serving the airport, then the money would be better spent connecting it to the national rail network.




  • This hasnt cropped up much lately - is it still being considered




  • This hasnt cropped up much lately - is it still being considered

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057341017




  • LXFlyer wrote: »
    You can find out more here and here.

    Effectively it encompasses resignalling the track from Malahide/Howth to Sandymount to allow for additional paths for extra services, and providing turnback facilities at Clongriffen (almost completed) and at Grand Canal Dock, and some track realignments.

    It will mean that all three platforms at Grand Canal Dock will come into use with the middle one being the turnback platform, meaning an end to the conflicting movements that are required every time a train accesses the sidings at Pearse.

    What happened to this?

    Standing on the platform here at Clongriffin and that third track clearly is not seeing any use whatsoever. The track has taken on a nice healthy rust colour.

    Did we just not bother in the end?

    Btw since I've stood here at 840 I've seen one train from Belfast head into Connolly and one train head the other way. Where exactly is all this congestion?


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  • lawred2 wrote: »
    What happened to this?
    Nothing. It has never been part of any official transport development plan. It was Irish Rail's idea. The only time it was formally considered was during the re-evaluation of the options for rail transport to the airport and north Dublin following the cancellation of the original Metro North plan. It was found wanting.

    It is appropriately forward-thinking that Clongriffin has a platform layout compatible with a grade separated junction for a branch to Dublin Airport but there are several more import public transport components that need to be put in place before building that link makes sense.
    Where exactly is all this congestion?
    Between Howth Junction and Connolly.


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