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DART-Airport Spur From Clongriffin

  • 17-07-2011 1:06pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 443 ✭✭ Ernest


    This story has re-surfaced again in the media during the last few days and is being put forward as a cheaper (only EUR 200 mill) alternative to the more elaborate underground and surface tram line that would be Metro North. I think this deserves its own thread.
    While this seems a cheap fix in hard times, my own fear it that the northern DART lines could not take the extra traffic this might generate unless the Clontarf to Howth Junction part was widened to take more than the present two lines. The report in the newspapers claims that it can all be solved by improved signalling to allow more intense traffic on existing lines but I would be doubtful.


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 7,588 ✭✭✭ Bluetonic


    Ernest wrote: »
    This story has re-surfaced again in the media during the last few days and is being put forward as a cheaper (only EUR 200 mill) alternative to the more elaborate underground and surface tram line that would be Metro North. I think this deserves its own thread.
    While this seems a cheap fix in hard times, my own fear it that the northern DART lines could not take the extra traffic this might generate unless the Clontarf to Howth Junction part was widened to take more than the present two lines. The report in the newspapers claims that it can all be solved by improved signalling to allow more intense traffic on existing lines but I would be doubtful.
    What's wrong with the many other threads were this has been discussed in depth?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,453 ✭✭✭ strassenwo!f


    Bluetonic wrote: »
    What's wrong with the many other threads were this has been discussed in depth?

    It hasn't really been discussed in depth on any thread in recent times though, has it? Rather it's been hidden away in various discussions of metro north, etc.

    Given that the proposed cost of the project would have to make it a runner in Ireland's current economic circumstances, Ernest's proposal to have a dedicated thread seems like a good one.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,588 ✭✭✭ Bluetonic


    Here is where it has been discusses in depth in the last two months over on C&T. Obviously not this forum, but what new information needs to be debated?

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056256624


  • Registered Users Posts: 443 ✭✭ Ernest


    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/dart-airport-link-cost-cut-to-euro200m-2823282.html

    That is the new development.

    In any event it seems better to examine this Dart Spur proposal by itself rather than have it buried deep within a much larger discussion thread about Metro North or something else.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,266 ✭✭✭ patrickbrophy18


    If this project was to get approval and be built, could it generate the demand for a 24 hour DART service?

    Usage might be a bit pointless though for people in the south-side as the Aircoach routes from the likes of Killiney/Dalkey and Greystones would probably still work out quicker than getting a DART all the way to the airport. Either that or there wouldn't be that much in it, journey length wise.

    The one thing for sure about Metro North is that there is indeed a business case for it due to the cumulative population and services which lie along it's alignment. The population along this hypothetical corridor is massive. The services include the secondary interchange between the two Luas lines at Stephen's Green and O'Connell Street. The Matter Hospital offers the entire corridor fast access to an emergency amenity. Next, there is a major interchange with Drumcondra Railway Station allowing connections with Maynooth Commuter and Sligo Intercity services. DCU is the next major stop on this corridor which is imperative given that thousands of students go there daily. Ballymun is a massive population center and is home to one out of the only two IKEA's on the entire island of Ireland which must have hundreds of employees. The airport, being the international hub for the entire country has a business case in itself. Hereafter, there is the very large community of Swords with a population of approximately 30,000. The remaining stations to the north have a secondary purpose which is a relatively inexpensive portion of the route.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,186 ✭✭✭ Niles


    Last May the Irish Independent revealed that the Government had ordered Iarnrod Eireann to update a 1991 plan to build a spur from Clongriffin Station to the airport.

    Here's the thing, they're updating a 1991 plan. Things have changed a lot in the past two decades. In 1991 there wouldn't have been the same level of bus services linking the Airport with the city centre and suburbs. A rail link would have been a big boost back then, but is it really needed now? If we were in a better economic era it might have made some sense, but at the moment I'm not convinced.
    There would be no impact on existing services because Iarnrod Eireann is upgrading the signalling system, allowing 20 trains to use the line every hour compared with 12 at present.

    Whilst train frequency will be higher when this is completed, it still doesn't discount the possibility of Drogheda and Belfast services being stuck crawling behind Darts. Surely the money would be better spent on additional trackage (complicated considering the geography of the route) between Connolly and Howth Junction/Malahide than on an Airport spur, or at least invested in an overtaking facility of some kind.


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 61,050 Mod ✭✭✭✭ L1011


    Niles wrote: »
    Whilst train frequency will be higher when this is completed, it still doesn't discount the possibility of Drogheda and Belfast services being stuck crawling behind Darts. Surely the money would be better spent on additional trackage (complicated considering the geography of the route) between Connolly and Howth Junction/Malahide, or at least an overtaking facility of some kind.

    DASH2 is going to happen with or without an airport link so the money isn't there to spend on anything else.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,361 mgmt


    Niles wrote: »
    Here's the thing, they're updating a 1991 plan.

    This report studies the airport link:

    http://www.dartundergroundrailwayord...round/A2.1.pdf (7mb)

    The spur would take 14-15min non-stop to the city centre, with 1.5min extra per intermediate stop. The report says it requires Connolly-Portmarnock to be upgraded to 3/4 track.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,186 ✭✭✭ Niles


    MYOB wrote: »
    DASH2 is going to happen with or without an airport link so the money isn't there to spend on anything else.

    Sorry, I meant that I think the money would be better spent on additional trackage than on the Airport branch.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭ Sponge Bob


    2 things have changed over the last 10 years

    1. There is now a considerable population and lots of empty homes between Clongriffin and the airport
    2. we own most of that land...through Nama.

    But now, as then, it requires four tracking at least to Howth Junction from Connolly....not a simple job and not cheap.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 15,803 ✭✭✭✭ LXFlyer


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    2 things have changed over the last 10 years

    1. There is now a considerable population and lots of empty homes between Clongriffin and the airport
    2. we own most of that land...through Nama.

    But now, as then, it requires four tracking at least to Howth Junction from Connolly....not a simple job and not cheap.

    It does not require 4 tracking - it requires completion of the resignalling project and conversion of Howth off-peak to a shuttle.

    4 tracking would be ideal but not necessary.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭ Sponge Bob


    OK

    Plenty of land beyond Clongriffin :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,330 ✭✭✭ AngryLips


    Why wasn't a spur off the Dunboyne line also considered? The line along the Royal Canal is less congested, no?

    Of course, with this spur an option is there to feed Enterprise services into Dublin Airport before continuing on to Belfast ...might this also help address the problem where intercity trains are found crawling behind Dart services between Connolly and Malahide?

    Personally, I don't think a rail link to Dublin Airport on its own represents better value than Luas BXD or any of the other alternatives. The fact is that, at no more than 30 minutes from the city centre, Dublin Airport probably doesn't need an express rail service into Connolly ...especially given that Connolly isn't exactly in a central location. Pearse might be a better terminus but is there capacity there?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,097 ✭✭✭ pigtown


    DASH2 is going to happen with or without an airport link so the money isn't there to spend on anything else.
    Anyone havea link to more info on DASH2? Would like to read more about it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,803 ✭✭✭✭ LXFlyer


    You can find out more here and here.

    Effectively it encompasses resignalling the track from Malahide/Howth to Sandymount to allow for additional paths for extra services, and providing turnback facilities at Clongriffen (almost completed) and at Grand Canal Dock, and some track realignments.

    It will mean that all three platforms at Grand Canal Dock will come into use with the middle one being the turnback platform, meaning an end to the conflicting movements that are required every time a train accesses the sidings at Pearse.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,097 ✭✭✭ pigtown


    Thanks for that. Hadn't a clue what it was.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,468 BluntGuy


    Sean Kenny Labour TD has this to say:
    Labour TD Sean Kenny has commented on newspaper reports over the weekend that the Metro North project would not proceed.

    "Metro North does have merit, but it is simply too expensive given the economic situation that the country is now in. While no final decision has been made, it is clear that adjustments to the capital spending budget will have to be made. The fact is that there is a clear and much less expensive alternative method of connecting Dublin City by rail to Dublin Airport, that being the DART Spur from Clongriffin DART station to the Airport.

    "In recent weeks, the Government has sought a cost outline from Irish Rail for a link-up to the airport by DART, and I have welcomed that and supported the proposal for the link from Clongriffin to the Airport. This project would cost €200m, less than a tenth of what Metro North would cost. Falling land prices and lower construction costs are part of what makes this project much cheaper.

    "It is proposed that trains would operate from the Airport to Dublin Connolly and Pearse stations every 15 minutes, with a journey time of 25 minutes into the city. There would be no impact on existing services because Iarnród Eireann is upgrading the signalling system, allowing 20 trains to use the line every hour compared with 12 at present.

    "It is also important that the DART Underground line is proceeded with. This line would connect all the existing railway services in Dublin with each other and would have a positive effect on railway services around the country that connect with Dublin - railway traffic would be less congested, and railway users in Dublin itself would avail of a much faster, more comprehensive service. The link between Clongriffin DART station and Dublin Airport would enhance that more comprehensive service."

    http://www.labour.ie/press/listing/13116697892259100.html


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,688 ✭✭✭✭ Zebra3


    And DU would benefit his voters.

    The more things change.... :rolleyes:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,032 DWCommuter


    This DART airport link won't happen either. However it is very very sad to see many TDs linking MN and this particular idea with merely linking the airport. Unfortunately that state of mind started over 10 years ago and has persisted. Despite much lobbying (and success) about integrating with DART and extending to Swords, MN is still perceived as an airport project.

    I wish I could come out of lobbying retirement, because the dipsticks I left behind couldn't lobby for a pint in a pub.


  • Registered Users Posts: 426 ✭✭ Jack Noble


    DWCommuter wrote: »
    This DART airport link won't happen either. However it is very very sad to see many TDs linking MN and this particular idea with merely linking the airport. Unfortunately that state of mind started over 10 years ago and has persisted. Despite much lobbying (and success) about integrating with DART and extending to Swords, MN is still perceived as an airport project.

    I wish I could come out of lobbying retirement, because the dipsticks I left behind couldn't lobby for a pint in a pub.

    Ah, go on....

    I've just had a vision of you returning to the game like an avenging angel!

    brennan.jpg


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,330 ✭✭✭ AngryLips


    Unfortunately, serving the north city was always seen as an added bonus to serving the airport. And a rail link to Dublin Airport still takes precedent. I think an attempt to do both makes the airport rail link a less desirable option. Demand now seems to be for non-stop airport services to city centre locations/transport hubs and anyone who has been stuck on the Piccadilly line to Heathrow airport knows why.

    Personally, I think the priorities are the wrong way around but that's just my opinion. Dublin airport must be one of the closest to the city it serves out of any major airport in Europe. Who is moaning about the time it takes to get there when the average journey time to/from the city centre is around 25 minutes?


  • Registered Users Posts: 947 ✭✭✭ xper


    Labour TD Sean Kenny has commented on newspaper reports over the weekend that the Metro North project would not proceed.

    "Metro North does have merit, but it is simply too expensive given the economic situation that the country is now in.
    <snip>
    "It is also important that the DART Underground line is proceeded with. <snip>"
    Joined up thinking there, Sean.


  • Registered Users Posts: 443 ✭✭ Ernest


    Meanwhile, the other Labour TD for the North East Dublin area, Tommy Broughan draws attention to an actual REDUCTION in the frequency of trains going north during the evening rush-hour, leaving an interval of 54 MINUTES between trains from city centre to Clongriffin Station! ( City Wide News 13th July 2011 - page 4) This is almost like promoting the shutting down of the station opened only last year. If trains are not frequent enough then commuters will be forced back to other stations like Sutton, Bayside or Howth Junction - or to use their cars. One advantage the creation of an Airport spur would have is that the frequency of trains to Clongriffin would probably increase.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 20,995 Mod ✭✭✭✭ bk


    Last week I got the 41 from the city center to Dublin Airport in 35 minutes at 5:30pm!!!

    And that is the bloody 41, not a swish 747 or Aircoach and at rush hour.

    There is simply no need for this rubbish link to the airport. It is absolutely the worst thing possible. It would be a complete waste of 300 million.

    It is tragic that MN won't go ahead, but please don't waste the money on this. At least spend it on something useful like Luas BXD or extra buses or pretty much anything else.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,688 ✭✭✭✭ Zebra3


    bk wrote: »
    or pretty much anything else.

    Careful now.

    They might extend the Luas onto Bray. :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,169 ✭✭✭ 1huge1


    Ya I've seen the plans for increasing the Luas to Bray as part of transport 21, I was amazed how this was considered even during the boom. Maybe thats just very shortsighted of me.

    I agree that we shouldn't just build this just because we are unable to build metro north right now, I would rather wait longer and get a proper service that will serve so much more than just the airport than this spur.

    In the meantime Luas BXD or Dart Underground would be very welcome.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭ Aard


    If the can't afford MN, then there's no way they'll give the go ahead for DU.

    I hope at the very least that if BXD is built, that the tracks on the segregated sections from Broadstone to Broombridge will be set far enough apart to be upgradable to metro standard, much like the rest of the green line.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 724 ✭✭✭ dynamick


    Airport-city journey time would be slower than coach
    Frequency @4 trains/hour is worse than coach and unattractive for what should be a 30min trip
    €200m estimate for a new heavy rail line that crosses a motorway and at least 2 other roads and an airport campus is not credible
    Northern line is already congested with DART, Arrow and Enterprise.
    Connolly a less attractive destination than O'Connell Street and Aircoach destinations
    Airport was only a fifth of MN projected ridership
    Solves a problem that doesn't exist
    Dublin Bus couldn't sustain their 'aerdart' bus shuttle on the same route


  • Registered Users Posts: 443 ✭✭ Ernest


    "Dublin Bus couldn't sustain their 'aerdart' bus shuttle on the same route"

    The ill-fated AerDart bus service was not run by Dublin Bus but by an English bus operator trying to get into the Irish Market. This ridiculous service was based on the idea that people would get a DART to the (still) unpleasant Howth Junction station and then change to a bus travelling along the N32 to the Airport via the M50/M1. Not surprisingly the bus ran nearly or totally empty most of the time until it was inevitably withdrawn.
    That is not at all the same thing as a DART running directly from city centre (and from points along the south coast from Bray) straight into the Airport - like in most airports for capital cities in Europe.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,330 ✭✭✭ AngryLips


    1huge1 wrote: »
    Ya I've seen the plans for increasing the Luas to Bray as part of transport 21, I was amazed how this was considered even during the boom. Maybe thats just very shortsighted of me

    Yea I find the whole concept of a Luas extension to Bray completely incomprehensible. Even the extension to Cherrywood was pushing it. Luas is poorly suited to serving the outer suburbs of the city, a task better left to Dart and suburban heavy rail services. Connectivity seems to have trump coverage here with this particular extension, thank god it's unlikely to happen. Transport planners should have been concentrating on bringing luas to new neighbourhoods instead of joining the dots on the small number of lines we have.


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