DART-Airport Spur From Clongriffin

Ernest

This story has re-surfaced again in the media during the last few days and is being put forward as a cheaper (only EUR 200 mill) alternative to the more elaborate underground and surface tram line that would be Metro North. I think this deserves its own thread.
While this seems a cheap fix in hard times, my own fear it that the northern DART lines could not take the extra traffic this might generate unless the Clontarf to Howth Junction part was widened to take more than the present two lines. The report in the newspapers claims that it can all be solved by improved signalling to allow more intense traffic on existing lines but I would be doubtful.

Bluetonic

Ernest wrote: »

This story has re-surfaced again in the media during the last few days and is being put forward as a cheaper (only EUR 200 mill) alternative to the more elaborate underground and surface tram line that would be Metro North. I think this deserves its own thread.
While this seems a cheap fix in hard times, my own fear it that the northern DART lines could not take the extra traffic this might generate unless the Clontarf to Howth Junction part was widened to take more than the present two lines. The report in the newspapers claims that it can all be solved by improved signalling to allow more intense traffic on existing lines but I would be doubtful.

What's wrong with the many other threads were this has been discussed in depth?

strassenwo!f

Bluetonic wrote: »

What's wrong with the many other threads were this has been discussed in depth?

It hasn't really been discussed in depth on any thread in recent times though, has it? Rather it's been hidden away in various discussions of metro north, etc.

Given that the proposed cost of the project would have to make it a runner in Ireland's current economic circumstances, Ernest's proposal to have a dedicated thread seems like a good one.

Bluetonic

Here is where it has been discusses in depth in the last two months over on C&T. Obviously not this forum, but what new information needs to be debated?

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056256624

Ernest

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/dart-airport-link-cost-cut-to-euro200m-2823282.html

That is the new development.

In any event it seems better to examine this Dart Spur proposal by itself rather than have it buried deep within a much larger discussion thread about Metro North or something else.

patrickbrophy18

If this project was to get approval and be built, could it generate the demand for a 24 hour DART service?

Usage might be a bit pointless though for people in the south-side as the Aircoach routes from the likes of Killiney/Dalkey and Greystones would probably still work out quicker than getting a DART all the way to the airport. Either that or there wouldn't be that much in it, journey length wise.

The one thing for sure about Metro North is that there is indeed a business case for it due to the cumulative population and services which lie along it's alignment. The population along this hypothetical corridor is massive. The services include the secondary interchange between the two Luas lines at Stephen's Green and O'Connell Street. The Matter Hospital offers the entire corridor fast access to an emergency amenity. Next, there is a major interchange with Drumcondra Railway Station allowing connections with Maynooth Commuter and Sligo Intercity services. DCU is the next major stop on this corridor which is imperative given that thousands of students go there daily. Ballymun is a massive population center and is home to one out of the only two IKEA's on the entire island of Ireland which must have hundreds of employees. The airport, being the international hub for the entire country has a business case in itself. Hereafter, there is the very large community of Swords with a population of approximately 30,000. The remaining stations to the north have a secondary purpose which is a relatively inexpensive portion of the route.

Niles

Irish Independent wrote:

Last May the Irish Independent revealed that the Government had ordered Iarnrod Eireann to update a 1991 plan to build a spur from Clongriffin Station to the airport.

Here's the thing, they're updating a 1991 plan. Things have changed a lot in the past two decades. In 1991 there wouldn't have been the same level of bus services linking the Airport with the city centre and suburbs. A rail link would have been a big boost back then, but is it really needed now? If we were in a better economic era it might have made some sense, but at the moment I'm not convinced.

Irish Independent wrote:

There would be no impact on existing services because Iarnrod Eireann is upgrading the signalling system, allowing 20 trains to use the line every hour compared with 12 at present.

Whilst train frequency will be higher when this is completed, it still doesn't discount the possibility of Drogheda and Belfast services being stuck crawling behind Darts. Surely the money would be better spent on additional trackage (complicated considering the geography of the route) between Connolly and Howth Junction/Malahide than on an Airport spur, or at least invested in an overtaking facility of some kind.

L1011

Niles wrote: »

Whilst train frequency will be higher when this is completed, it still doesn't discount the possibility of Drogheda and Belfast services being stuck crawling behind Darts. Surely the money would be better spent on additional trackage (complicated considering the geography of the route) between Connolly and Howth Junction/Malahide, or at least an overtaking facility of some kind.

DASH2 is going to happen with or without an airport link so the money isn't there to spend on anything else.

mgmt

Niles wrote: »

Here's the thing, they're updating a 1991 plan.

This report studies the airport link:

http://www.dartundergroundrailwayord...round/A2.1.pdf (7mb)

The spur would take 14-15min non-stop to the city centre, with 1.5min extra per intermediate stop. The report says it requires Connolly-Portmarnock to be upgraded to 3/4 track.

Niles

MYOB wrote: »

DASH2 is going to happen with or without an airport link so the money isn't there to spend on anything else.

Sorry, I meant that I think the money would be better spent on additional trackage than on the Airport branch.

Sponge Bob

2 things have changed over the last 10 years

1. There is now a considerable population and lots of empty homes between Clongriffin and the airport
2. we own most of that land...through Nama.

But now, as then, it requires four tracking at least to Howth Junction from Connolly....not a simple job and not cheap.

LXFlyer

Sponge Bob wrote: »

2 things have changed over the last 10 years

1. There is now a considerable population and lots of empty homes between Clongriffin and the airport
2. we own most of that land...through Nama.

But now, as then, it requires four tracking at least to Howth Junction from Connolly....not a simple job and not cheap.

It does not require 4 tracking - it requires completion of the resignalling project and conversion of Howth off-peak to a shuttle.

4 tracking would be ideal but not necessary.

Sponge Bob

OK

Plenty of land beyond Clongriffin

AngryLips

Why wasn't a spur off the Dunboyne line also considered? The line along the Royal Canal is less congested, no?

Of course, with this spur an option is there to feed Enterprise services into Dublin Airport before continuing on to Belfast ...might this also help address the problem where intercity trains are found crawling behind Dart services between Connolly and Malahide?

Personally, I don't think a rail link to Dublin Airport on its own represents better value than Luas BXD or any of the other alternatives. The fact is that, at no more than 30 minutes from the city centre, Dublin Airport probably doesn't need an express rail service into Connolly ...especially given that Connolly isn't exactly in a central location. Pearse might be a better terminus but is there capacity there?

pigtown

DASH2 is going to happen with or without an airport link so the money isn't there to spend on anything else.

Anyone havea link to more info on DASH2? Would like to read more about it.

LXFlyer

You can find out more here and here.

Effectively it encompasses resignalling the track from Malahide/Howth to Sandymount to allow for additional paths for extra services, and providing turnback facilities at Clongriffen (almost completed) and at Grand Canal Dock, and some track realignments.

It will mean that all three platforms at Grand Canal Dock will come into use with the middle one being the turnback platform, meaning an end to the conflicting movements that are required every time a train accesses the sidings at Pearse.

pigtown

Thanks for that. Hadn't a clue what it was.

BluntGuy

Sean Kenny Labour TD has this to say:

Labour TD Sean Kenny has commented on newspaper reports over the weekend that the Metro North project would not proceed.

"Metro North does have merit, but it is simply too expensive given the economic situation that the country is now in. While no final decision has been made, it is clear that adjustments to the capital spending budget will have to be made. The fact is that there is a clear and much less expensive alternative method of connecting Dublin City by rail to Dublin Airport, that being the DART Spur from Clongriffin DART station to the Airport.

"In recent weeks, the Government has sought a cost outline from Irish Rail for a link-up to the airport by DART, and I have welcomed that and supported the proposal for the link from Clongriffin to the Airport. This project would cost €200m, less than a tenth of what Metro North would cost. Falling land prices and lower construction costs are part of what makes this project much cheaper.

"It is proposed that trains would operate from the Airport to Dublin Connolly and Pearse stations every 15 minutes, with a journey time of 25 minutes into the city. There would be no impact on existing services because Iarnród Eireann is upgrading the signalling system, allowing 20 trains to use the line every hour compared with 12 at present.

"It is also important that the DART Underground line is proceeded with. This line would connect all the existing railway services in Dublin with each other and would have a positive effect on railway services around the country that connect with Dublin - railway traffic would be less congested, and railway users in Dublin itself would avail of a much faster, more comprehensive service. The link between Clongriffin DART station and Dublin Airport would enhance that more comprehensive service."

http://www.labour.ie/press/listing/13116697892259100.html

Zebra3

And DU would benefit his voters.

The more things change.... :rolleyes:

DWCommuter

This DART airport link won't happen either. However it is very very sad to see many TDs linking MN and this particular idea with merely linking the airport. Unfortunately that state of mind started over 10 years ago and has persisted. Despite much lobbying (and success) about integrating with DART and extending to Swords, MN is still perceived as an airport project.

I wish I could come out of lobbying retirement, because the dipsticks I left behind couldn't lobby for a pint in a pub.

Jack Noble

DWCommuter wrote: »

This DART airport link won't happen either. However it is very very sad to see many TDs linking MN and this particular idea with merely linking the airport. Unfortunately that state of mind started over 10 years ago and has persisted. Despite much lobbying (and success) about integrating with DART and extending to Swords, MN is still perceived as an airport project.

I wish I could come out of lobbying retirement, because the dipsticks I left behind couldn't lobby for a pint in a pub.

Ah, go on....

I've just had a vision of you returning to the game like an avenging angel!

AngryLips

Unfortunately, serving the north city was always seen as an added bonus to serving the airport. And a rail link to Dublin Airport still takes precedent. I think an attempt to do both makes the airport rail link a less desirable option. Demand now seems to be for non-stop airport services to city centre locations/transport hubs and anyone who has been stuck on the Piccadilly line to Heathrow airport knows why.

Personally, I think the priorities are the wrong way around but that's just my opinion. Dublin airport must be one of the closest to the city it serves out of any major airport in Europe. Who is moaning about the time it takes to get there when the average journey time to/from the city centre is around 25 minutes?

xper

Labour TD Sean Kenny has commented on newspaper reports over the weekend that the Metro North project would not proceed.

"Metro North does have merit, but it is simply too expensive given the economic situation that the country is now in.
<snip>
"It is also important that the DART Underground line is proceeded with. <snip>"

Joined up thinking there, Sean.

Ernest

Meanwhile, the other Labour TD for the North East Dublin area, Tommy Broughan draws attention to an actual REDUCTION in the frequency of trains going north during the evening rush-hour, leaving an interval of 54 MINUTES between trains from city centre to Clongriffin Station! ( City Wide News 13th July 2011 - page 4) This is almost like promoting the shutting down of the station opened only last year. If trains are not frequent enough then commuters will be forced back to other stations like Sutton, Bayside or Howth Junction - or to use their cars. One advantage the creation of an Airport spur would have is that the frequency of trains to Clongriffin would probably increase.

bk

Last week I got the 41 from the city center to Dublin Airport in 35 minutes at 5:30pm!!!

And that is the bloody 41, not a swish 747 or Aircoach and at rush hour.

There is simply no need for this rubbish link to the airport. It is absolutely the worst thing possible. It would be a complete waste of 300 million.

It is tragic that MN won't go ahead, but please don't waste the money on this. At least spend it on something useful like Luas BXD or extra buses or pretty much anything else.

Zebra3

bk wrote: »

or pretty much anything else.

Careful now.

They might extend the Luas onto Bray.

1huge1

Ya I've seen the plans for increasing the Luas to Bray as part of transport 21, I was amazed how this was considered even during the boom. Maybe thats just very shortsighted of me.

I agree that we shouldn't just build this just because we are unable to build metro north right now, I would rather wait longer and get a proper service that will serve so much more than just the airport than this spur.

In the meantime Luas BXD or Dart Underground would be very welcome.

Aard

If the can't afford MN, then there's no way they'll give the go ahead for DU.

I hope at the very least that if BXD is built, that the tracks on the segregated sections from Broadstone to Broombridge will be set far enough apart to be upgradable to metro standard, much like the rest of the green line.

dynamick

Airport-city journey time would be slower than coach
Frequency @4 trains/hour is worse than coach and unattractive for what should be a 30min trip
€200m estimate for a new heavy rail line that crosses a motorway and at least 2 other roads and an airport campus is not credible
Northern line is already congested with DART, Arrow and Enterprise.
Connolly a less attractive destination than O'Connell Street and Aircoach destinations
Airport was only a fifth of MN projected ridership
Solves a problem that doesn't exist
Dublin Bus couldn't sustain their 'aerdart' bus shuttle on the same route

Ernest

"Dublin Bus couldn't sustain their 'aerdart' bus shuttle on the same route"

The ill-fated AerDart bus service was not run by Dublin Bus but by an English bus operator trying to get into the Irish Market. This ridiculous service was based on the idea that people would get a DART to the (still) unpleasant Howth Junction station and then change to a bus travelling along the N32 to the Airport via the M50/M1. Not surprisingly the bus ran nearly or totally empty most of the time until it was inevitably withdrawn.
That is not at all the same thing as a DART running directly from city centre (and from points along the south coast from Bray) straight into the Airport - like in most airports for capital cities in Europe.

AngryLips

1huge1 wrote: »

Ya I've seen the plans for increasing the Luas to Bray as part of transport 21, I was amazed how this was considered even during the boom. Maybe thats just very shortsighted of me

Yea I find the whole concept of a Luas extension to Bray completely incomprehensible. Even the extension to Cherrywood was pushing it. Luas is poorly suited to serving the outer suburbs of the city, a task better left to Dart and suburban heavy rail services. Connectivity seems to have trump coverage here with this particular extension, thank god it's unlikely to happen. Transport planners should have been concentrating on bringing luas to new neighbourhoods instead of joining the dots on the small number of lines we have.

Jack Noble

AngryLips wrote: »

Yea I find the whole concept of a Luas extension to Bray completely incomprehensible. Even the extension to Cherrywood was pushing it. Luas is poorly suited to serving the outer suburbs of the city, a task better left to Dart and suburban heavy rail services. Connectivity seems to have trump coverage here with this particular extension, thank god it's unlikely to happen. Transport planners should have been concentrating on bringing luas to new neighbourhoods instead of joining the dots on the small number of lines we have.

It is meant to be part of a Metro line - Swords to Bray - as recommended in the DTO's Platform for Change in 2001 and carried on into the NTA's 2030Vision which is currently with the Transport Minister for final approval.

PFC: http://www.dto.ie/platform1.pdf

2030Vision: http://www.2030vision.ie/downloads/files/en/final/draft_strategy.pdf

Here's planned network map envisaged for 2030.

Brian CivilEng

^^^^^

You know I wish someone would create a proper metro style map instead of that thing. Looks so confusing, and doesn't show how connected everywhere to is everywhere else. Seems like it was done on MS Paint for A Platform for Change and has never been substantially altered. If a final metro map could be created and the bits we have now filled in and used on all our public transport, it would make people realise why stuff like DART Underground is necessary.

dynamick

this kind of thing?
http://www.venetikidis.com/ArisV/DUBLIN_TRANSPORT_MAP_files/DublinCityCentre-AllModes_1.jpg

DWCommuter

Jack Noble wrote: »

It is meant to be part of a Metro line - Swords to Bray - as recommended in the DTO's Platform for Change in 2001 and carried on into the NTA's 2030Vision which is currently with the Transport Minister for final approval.

PFC: http://www.dto.ie/platform1.pdf

2030Vision: http://www.2030vision.ie/downloads/files/en/final/draft_strategy.pdf

Here's planned network map envisaged for 2030.

Can't happen as a Metro in a workable sense. And the link up to MN is still muddied water territory. PFC may have been a semi decent document, but it was lacking a DTA to implement it in full/part effectively.

The gap between the running lines on the Green line will be another eternal reminder of all that is wrong here.

BluntGuy

I read the 2030 strategy and it reads like a pile of other plans stapled together with new waffle added. Not to say a vision for 2030 isn't a worthwhile goal, but does it actually mean anything?

The MSPaint map is rubbish. Lazy, unclear and as said does nothing to highlight the benefits that any of the proposed projects may bring.

Brian CivilEng

dynamick wrote: »

this kind of thing?
http://www.venetikidis.com/ArisV/DUBLIN_TRANSPORT_MAP_files/DublinCityCentre-AllModes_1.jpg

No, not at all. That map was a case of not letting reality get in the way of something looking good. The tunnel under Trinity being a case in point, really can't see how that would work in reality without some significant demolition.

I mean that despite whether any of it will be built or not, we have had a constant idea of what the future Dublin rail map would look like, yet nobody has seen fit to update the original MS Paint job of a transport map. Irish people travel, we successfully use the mass transit systems of other cities after seeing their transit maps, surely having a proper Dublin transit map would make more people grasp what our wishlist really would achieve. Instead of abstract concepts of Metro North, DART Underground, the airport connection, tunnel from Connolly to Heuston etc. we could have a proper network map, and the gaps could slowly be filled in.

Something simple like Oslo's T-bane map:



"Oslo's new metro map by geirarne, on Flickr"

Their tunnel through the city was built in the 80's I believe, recently extended to a full ring. No one looking at that map could deny that it is the backbone for the whole system. Imagine the same for Dublin?

Aard

Incidentally, there's a great PDF through that link from the people who designed that map: http://www.civitas.no/Civitas/HiTrans2Pres.pdf

Deals with conveying different routes to the public, and how this affects uptake of services.

Wild Bill

AngryLips wrote: »

Yea I find the whole concept of a Luas extension to Bray completely incomprehensible.

If it's incomprehensible now imagine how utterly daft the original Harcourt Street line was?

Amazingly, people still mourn it's passing. :cool:

Aard

Harcourt Line had few stops. The Bray Luas on aggregate has a stop every 700m or so to town. This kind of short inter-station interval is better suited to short-distance travel.

Wild Bill

Aard wrote: »

Harcourt Line had few stops.

Indeed.

Because after Dundrum it went through empty fields. Unlike the modern Luas.

Wild Bill

Aard wrote: »

This kind of short inter-station interval is better suited to short-distance travel.

And a "short distance" is what?

One mile?
Five miles?
Ten miles?

AngryLips

It's quite obvious that, in this case, short distance means having 22 stops along a 17km stretch of track. Whereas Dart, which is far better suited to serving the outer suburbs, only has 31 stops covering 53km of track. This being one of the main reasons for its suitability over Luas. I think it's this definition of "short distance" (as against long distance) that Aard is referring to, but I'm only gathering that from having paid attention to the conversation.

dowlingm

Dundrum's a long way from the airport lads. Can we get back to the topic at hand?

Rock of Gibraltar

Is the €200m quoted for this inclusive of the cost of the re-signaling that is currently under way that is necessary to make this happen?
It's a bit disingenuous if it isn't seeing as the re-signaling was intended for another purpose.

dubhthach

Also does this €200m include the cost of rolling stock?

dowlingm

dubhthach wrote: »

Also does this €200m include the cost of rolling stock?

sure isn't there 10 grand 8200s lurking around Fairview waiting to do the job? :rolleyes:

Wild Bill

dowlingm wrote: »

sure isn't there 10 grand 8200s lurking around Fairview waiting to do the job? :rolleyes:

For the uninitiated you might share some information; what is a "grand 8200"

And why do they lurk around Fairview??

LXFlyer

dubhthach wrote: »

Also does this €200m include the cost of rolling stock?

You will not need additional rolling stock - there is sufficient capacity within the existing fleet to do it.

LXFlyer

Rock of Gibraltar wrote: »

Is the €200m quoted for this inclusive of the cost of the re-signaling that is currently under way that is necessary to make this happen?
It's a bit disingenuous if it isn't seeing as the re-signaling was intended for another purpose.

The resignalling is an ongoing separate project, that has to happen anyway, which would in turn facilitate the Airport DART were it to be approved.

The €200m would be (I believe) the cost of the spur - nothing to do with the existing resignalling works.

AngryLips

How would they run express services on a two track line with god knows how many stops between Dublin Airport and Pearse...?