Roundabout ways of officially quitting religion

Amtmann

So, since the Catholic Church has made it difficult/impossible to defect, are there any other techniques you can use to formally quit religion?

For example, if you're a non-believing Catholic, can you convert to some other religion, thereby relinquishing your Catholicism, and then quit the new religion you only just joined?

kylith

Theoretically I suppose you could, but switching religions isn't just a matter of saying 'I'm Jewish now', to officially convert and get the RCC off your back takes years of studying the tenets of your new religion. And, of course, you'd have the same problem quitting your new religion. The exemption to this may be Pastafarianism. I'd imagine that the RCC would probably keep you on the books anyway cos just being Jewish doesn't mean you're not a Catholic; just a bad Catholic.

Personally I don't like the idea of converting to get out of RCC because it would involve large amounts of lying to what are probably very nice people with the intention of betraying their trust at the earliest opportunity.

My personal way out is going to be excommunication. Now all I have to do is find a bishop to assault.

5uspect

kylith wrote: »

My personal way out is going to be excommunication. Now all I have to do is find a bishop to assault.

Take a number and join the queue.

Amtmann

Apparently it's quite easy to quit Mormonism.

Amtmann

kylith wrote: »

My personal way out is going to be excommunication.

That won't cut it I'm afraid: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excommunication#The_Catholic_Church

kylith

Tremelo wrote: »

That won't cut it I'm afraid: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excommunication#The_Catholic_Church

Excommunicated Catholics are still Catholics and remain bound by obligations such as attending Mass, even though they are barred from receiving the Eucharist and from taking an active part in the liturgy (reading, bringing the offerings, etc.)

Well, shít.

kylith

Tremelo wrote: »

Apparently it's quite easy to quit Mormonism.

I know a couple of Mormons and they're generally very nice people, but it's amazing how cultish the sect becomes if you want to leave. You essentially become dead to your family, you are completely ostracised; they won't talk to you or acknowledge your existance.

Jericho Smith

Generally to get yourself out of the RCC it is possible to break Eucharistic bread on the alter during mass and formally request to be stricken from the record of the church of your baptism. That generally should cut it, its interesting to note that Christopher Hitchens spoke about how there are actually not enough churches in most country to accommodate the number of Catholics that the RCC confirms there are in Ireland. That should be a good enough reason for anyone to plainly see that the Church uses its influence to contain those who have no belief, and keep you on the record for your entire life. Its a very effective ploy.

Jericho

magicbastarder

Jericho Smith wrote: »

Generally to get yourself out of the RCC it is possible to break Eucharistic bread on the alter during mass and formally request to be stricken from the record of the church of your baptism.
...
Its a very effective ploy.

'fraid not - the church's stance (and they happen to be right, as far as i'm concerned) is that the baptismal roll is a historical document and they cannot (or should not) alter it. your baptism is a matter of historical record.

28064212

What if the RCC changes its membership requirements? It announces that all humans are Catholics (some of them aren't baptised yet), so its membership in Ireland is now 4.5m. How are you going to stop them claiming you then?

Talk of "leaving" the church is playing the wrong game by the wrong rules. There's no more a problem with the RCC claiming 90% of the population are Catholic than there is a problem with Liverpool claiming 90% of the population are Liverpool fans

Jericho Smith

To 28064212

With all due respect are you a catholic? do you believe i the works of the RCC? or do you honestly think the whole world revolves around the RCC. One church in competition with another 20,000 denominations of Christianity and one of the top 6 religions on the planet. Do you think it can own you or i or demand my compliance to it ? The church will never do that unless it is allowed to it does not own you or i and it is not above criticism. We must put our view forward and take ourselves from their hold and identify ourselves (if you are a free independent thinker which i am sure you are ) as independent people with no binds to any denomination which preaches its canon of hypocritical Dogma.

Jericho

28064212

Jericho Smith wrote: »

To 28064212

With all due respect are you a catholic? do you believe i the works of the RCC?

No. I was baptised though. I also joined the scouts when I was younger. If the scouts want to claim me as one of their members, they can go ahead and do it. It won't make me a scout any more than it makes me a Catholic

You appear to have missed my point. What the RCC (or any other denomination, or organisation for that matter) believes is completely irrelevant. They can claim they have 4.5m members or 1. Arguing that claim is incredibly pointless. They choose their own qualification criteria. They can make it as broad or narrow as they want. Attempting to fight them on that ground is impossible and stupid

CiaranMT

28064212 wrote: »

Talk of "leaving" the church is playing the wrong game by the wrong rules. There's no more a problem with the RCC claiming 90% of the population are Catholic than there is a problem with Liverpool claiming 90% of the population are Liverpool fans

Are you so naive?

Yes there is. They can use their inflated figures to justify greater influence in the decision-making of the country. You can see this quite clearly in the furore over the handover of schools.

Any proper secular country (as Ireland is supposed to be) would not even have this issue.

magicbastarder

i couldn't be arsed 'leaving' the church. i'm not going to give honour to their rules by following them to leave, even if they'd let me.

Jericho Smith

Thank you very much to CiaranMT. I do think the other man is slightly niave and i think if you want a discussion you should not condemn my point of view so readily or did they not teach you any scouts honor at all?
Now back to the issue at hand, you think it is stupid and silly and totally pointless to have a problem with the way the church bolsters its numbers through aggressive recruitment and targets young children into its ranks. That my friend is stupid, silly but not pointless its a very smart and effective scheme to make your church seem more powerful. Now since you read my other thread of how the actual numbers of practicing Catholics is much smaller than actual number of registered Catholics i see no problem whatsoever of requesting to be stricken from its records and neither should anyone. I may be a devil worshiping sadist but damned if i want to be registered as one just like Ireland rarely registers priests as child rapists.

Jericho

Dades

Jericho Smith - try not to be so confrontational.

The catholic church can use whatever methods they want to count people as catholics, but as long as the government of this country use the official census statistics (also flawed - another story) to make public policy decisions, then what they claim makes no difference.

28064212

CiaranMT wrote: »

Yes there is. They can use their inflated figures to justify greater influence in the decision-making of the country. You can see this quite clearly in the furore over the handover of schools.

Their "figures" are totally and utterly irrelevant. They could be pulled out of a hat, or God could have come down and told them himself, and it wouldn't make the slightest bit of difference

CiaranMT wrote: »

Any proper secular country (as Ireland is supposed to be) would not even have this issue.

You're actually making the exact same argument as I am. The problem is not with what the church are claiming. The problem is with anyone who makes decisions based on their claims.

The church makes up their own rules for membership. There are no legal boundaries on them. They can claim all dogs are members in the morning, and that's an extra 650,000 members they can put on their figures. It's totally meaningless outside of the church

Jericho Smith

It does make a large difference though, they use that power to control goverments and have large amounts of power especcially in America and ireland because of their size and who they claim they represent.

Jericho

Dades

Their power is historical, though, not derived from figures they themselves produce as evidence.

Our Tánaiste and Minister for Education are now both non-religious. This year's census will give a truer sense of the churches support-base. So the names they have on dusty books hidden away in sacristies across the country count for nothing.

The US have their own problems. From mostly other Christian denominations I'd have thought, too.

28064212

Jericho Smith wrote: »

It does make a large difference though, they use that power to control goverments and have large amounts of power especcially in America and ireland because of their size and who they claim they represent.

Jericho

Say tomorrow morning, I set up the "Church of 28064212" (or CO2 for short). I then claim that the qualification criteria to be a member of my church is having at least one head. Well, that means I've got at least 4.5m members in Ireland (more if I include a few of the smarter animals), right? My church must be huge and powerful.

The RCC's position in Ireland has nothing to do with their own pre-selected figures

Jericho Smith

It does matter in fact you can set up your own church, people do it all the time. so your argument is the church source of power has nothing to do with its 1.2 billion members? Is that what your saying? that your church would have little to no power if you had 1.2 billion followers? hmmmm where does the churchs power come from if not its 1.2 billion followers?

Jericho

28064212

Jericho Smith wrote: »

It does matter in fact you can set up your own church, people do it all the time. so your argument is the church source of power has nothing to do with its 1.2 billion members? Is that what your saying? that your church would have little to no power if you had 1.2 billion followers? hmmmm where does the churchs power come from if not its 1.2 billion followers?

Jericho

Again, you're totally missing the point.

A significant part of the church's power does come from its 1 billion followers. It has nothing to with its claims of 1.2 billion followers

1. My hypothetical CO2 does not have 4.5m followers. It doesn't even have 1
2. My hypothetical CO2 is claiming that it does have 4.5m followers

Only the first point has any relevance whatsoever. Me claiming that I have 4.5m followers by my own definition of follower is totally irrelevant

Jericho Smith

ironically Co2 is toxic in confined places much like the RCC. The church does have 1.2 billion members and can show your baptism record, your cummunion and your confirmation records. So with all due respect they are a world religion and like it or not they are here to stay and you and i are both members. We are legally registered as such and your church can claim all they want. But they can back up their claims you cannot.
Does that answer the question?

Jericho

Dades

Dades wrote: »

This year's census will give a truer sense of the churches support-base.

Possibly, but the mammy effect still seems to have been very strong this year as well.

axer

Jericho Smith wrote: »

ironically Co2 is toxic in confined places much like the RCC. The church does have 1.2 billion members and can show your baptism record, your cummunion and your confirmation records. So with all due respect they are a world religion and like it or not they are here to stay and you and i are both members. We are legally registered as such and your church can claim all they want. But they can back up their claims you cannot.
Does that answer the question?

Jericho

So all it takes is for 28064212 to fill out a few million forms? Sure it doesn't matter of all these people are baptised against their will. Does it?

axer

bluewolf wrote: »

Possibly, but the mammy effect still seems to have been very strong this year as well.

Its a pity the census was not after the cloynes report was published.

28064212

Jericho Smith wrote: »

ironically Co2 is toxic in confined places much like the RCC. The church does have 1.2 billion members and can show your baptism record, your cummunion and your confirmation records. So with all due respect they are a world religion and like it or not they are here to stay and you and i are both members. We are legally registered as such and your church can claim all they want. But they can back up their claims you cannot.
Does that answer the question?

Jericho

The bolded word is were you are completely and utterly wrong. My 'membership' of the RCC has as much legal weight as my status as head of the Co2 i.e. zero, zilch, nada.

Jericho Smith

The support base should perhaps be linked to actual active Catholics and not predominantly passive believers who believe the story but not how the message is spread.

Jericho

28064212

Jericho Smith wrote: »

The support base should perhaps be linked to actual active Catholics and not predominantly passive believers who believe the story but not how the message is spread.

Jericho

Linked by who? That's the part you're missing once again. The RCC wants to make their numbers look as big as possible, so they use loose qualification criteria.

Similarly, the Irish Independent newspaper wants its readership to look as big as possible. If you're an advertiser, are you going to listen to the figures that the Irish Independent publish themselves? Or are you going to look for unbiased figures?

Jericho Smith

Sorry but do you study law or have a working knowledge of the legal system in regards to clerical law both from the Vatican and International clerical and law and irish law in regards religion?. just curious to know if you have this knowledge because it does matter. Legally in this country you are registered and that legality for the most part means very little. But !!!! here is the kicker get involved in a dispute or seek marriage or other affairs and suddenly it does matter, baptism forms do matter as they link you. That link is held in this country and back at misogynist HQ in Rome.so you are registered it is legally binding until you convert or leave the church officially so until you do either of that take out your pen and fill in your census form correctly. Religion: christian? please tick the box for both of us.

Jericho

axer

Jericho Smith wrote: »

We are still all members

hmmmmnnnmmmhhmmmm...I baptise Jericho into the church of the red satanists....hmmmmnnnmmmhhmmmm....you are now excommunicated from your church for you are now part of my church....hmmmmnnnmmmhhmmmm....you are a member whether you like it or not....hmmmmnnnmmmhhmmmm

*throws water out of screen*

28064212

Jericho Smith wrote: »

Legally in this country you are registered and that legality for the most part means very little. But !!!! here is the kicker get involved in a dispute or seek marriage or other affairs and suddenly it does matter, baptism forms do matter as they link you

What are you talking about? Give me one example where my baptism could possibly affect me in a court of law

Dades

Jericho Smith wrote: »

Sorry but do you study law or have a working knowledge of the legal system in regards to clerical law both from the Vatican and International clerical and law and irish law in regards religion?. just curious to know if you have this knowledge because it does matter. Legally in this country you are registered and that legality for the most part means very little. But !!!! here is the kicker get involved in a dispute or seek marriage or other affairs and suddenly it does matter, baptism forms do matter as they link you. That link is held in this country and back at misogynist HQ in Rome.so you are registered it is legally binding until you convert or leave the church officially so until you do either of that take out your pen and fill in your census form correctly. Religion: christian? please tick the box for both of us.

Jericho

Do you want to try explaining that again?

Canon law has no standing in the Irish legal system. It counts for nothing.
AGAIN - as far as public policy is concerned the government get their statistics from the census.

magicbastarder

28064212 wrote: »

My hypothetical CO2

stop bringing climate change denial into this argument.

28064212

magicbastarder wrote: »

stop bringing climate change denial into this argument.

Wake up Sheeple! Natural cycles... man can't affect... rabble rabble... zzzzz

Jericho Smith

Get married then seek a divorce try and get married with your fiance back in a catholic church. You will run into more walls than I care dwell upon. but although this is trivial it affects many in Africa who in Sudan were repressed due to their association with the RCC, also iraq, much of afric especially on the east coast.
All i am saying is that i do not wish to be part of an institution that cherry picks its scripture, that damages life, and is backward and misogynistic. To be fair in a world full of sex scandals its a wonder a penis is a requirement for the priesthood.

Jericho

magicbastarder

Jericho Smith wrote: »

Get married then seek a divorce try and get married with your fiance back in a catholic church.

this is not a legal issue.

Jericho Smith

Dades wrote: »

Do you want to try explaining that again?

Canon law has no standing in the Irish legal system. It counts for nothing.
AGAIN - as far as public policy is concerned the government get their statistics from the census.

Thats actually true and i never said otherwise. Please reread my thread before making assertions of my beliefs. As well as that that sentene is only true up to twenty years ago.
on the second note there are many other reports done on religion throughout the year than the cencus which by right is a joke.

JERICHO

28064212

Jericho Smith wrote: »

Get married then seek a divorce try and get married with your fiance back in a catholic church

Ehh, a catholic church is not a court of law. If I don't stick to their rules, I can hardly use their church now, can I?

What legal implications are there to me having been baptised?

djh

Is there some law of Free Association?

I have a vague memory from college that if we did not want to be individually a member of USI (and pay the fee as part of registration each year) we had to sign a form to that effect and the USI membership bit was removed from our record.

If I stretch my mind even further back I think someone had taken/threatened legal action against the college to make them allow this opt out/stop the opt in.

Wonder if same could be used against the catholic church as an organisation?


Then again, I may be imagining all of this.

Jericho Smith

I'm sorry, but i already explained myself and how it is trivial and how YOU should look at the bigger picture . Please if you don't mind stop trying to get a rise out of me to prove your point that has no relevance on this whatsoever. Your point is not relevant and i am actually curious to know a few things. what is your belief system myself i am a staunch atheist who believes religion is a burden derived from primitive lack of understanding. whats yours (and i am not changing the subject so do not think you have gained anything from this as you have not your point is just not relevant, the church retains massive power because of its large membership whether they are active or not is irrelevant)

Jericho

axer

djh wrote: »

Wonder if same could be used against the catholic church as an organisation?

That is the case in the likes of Germany where a percentage of your earnings are taken at source for your religious institution. If you are registered as a RC for instance they get the money. You have to leave the church and submit that to the revenue authorities to stop the payments been taken out of your wages. I personally think it is a great idea as it forces people to think about whether they are a member or not.

Dont think you could sue for something similar if money is not been taken off of you.

28064212

Jericho Smith wrote: »

I'm sorry, but i already explained myself and how it is trivial and how YOU should look at the bigger picture

No, you haven't. What legal effect does my baptism have on me?

Your wedding example is obviously totally irrelevant. It's the equivalent of a golf course not letting me play anymore because I took a 4-iron to their green.

Jericho Smith wrote: »

the church retains massive power because of its large membership whether they are active or not is irrelevant

Correct. Whether they are baptised or not is also irrelevant. They have power because they have a large number of self-identified members. So what do you think would happen if they did say "ok, we won't count you atheists anymore"? Would all that power just fall away?

Jericho Smith

You really must stop fishing for an answer that is not forthcoming as i have already explained myself time and time again. please stop looking for something to give you some self satisfaction that you have won a victory (you have not) as i said before the marriage situation is perhaps irrelevant to you but how about in speculation of course your/any one else die hard catholic fiance wants to get married in a church. Suddenly it becomes a problem does it not? its a metaphor C02 its a sign they have control over not just the servile population but also the law of the land. currently i am in another conversation about how the church is brushing rape under the carpet once again. And your wrong about your baptism being irrelevant it identifies you as a roman catholic straight away and you are tied to a religion of hate, hypocritical babble ,lies,violence and despicable acts of racial tension and misogynistic behaviour. something frankly you and i want no part of. am i correct?

Jericho

28064212

Jericho Smith wrote: »

as i said before the marriage situation is perhaps irrelevant to you but how about in speculation of course your/any one else die hard catholic fiance wants to get married in a church.

So if the RCC allowed you to renounce your baptism, then you'd be able to get married in a church? That's your argument?

Jericho Smith wrote: »

...but also the law of the land.

Ok, seriously, if you're going to mention the law one more time, show at least a single example of how the topic has any relation to the law in any way.

Jericho Smith wrote: »

And your wrong about your baptism being irrelevant it identifies you as a roman catholic straight away

Firstly, no it doesn't. I am not a Catholic, so how could it identify me as one? Secondly, I was baptised, just like I made the Scouts' pledge. I am no longer a Catholic, I am no longer a Scout. Whether the Scouts have a record of me making the pledge has no relevance whatsoever.

Dades

Okay, so assuming I'm not divorced and want to remarry a catholic in a church, how does the church claiming me as one of their own affect me?

(Assuming that the people who actually control the country and who create the only laws that count do not use the church's statistics).

Jericho Smith

28064212 wrote: »

So if the RCC allowed you to renounce your baptism, then you'd be able to get married in a church? That's your argument?
No its yours actually, and i am lost as to why you keep arguing with yourself it puzzles me .


Ok, seriously, if you're going to mention the law one more time, show at least a single example of how the topic has any relation to the law in any way.
I already did and you keep bringing it all back to this argument, even if you keep going this way its no big deal its a metaphor c02 please move on.


Firstly, no it doesn't. I am not a Catholic, so how could it identify me as one? Secondly, I was baptised, just like I made the Scouts' pledge. I am no longer a Catholic, I am no longer a Scout. Whether the Scouts have a record of me making the pledge has no relevance whatsoever.

yes you are a catholic in their eyes, not in mine but in theirs because baptism is a lifelong commitment. thats reality why you persist to argue this seems silly. In the CCC it says quite readily baptism is an into to the church as a whole and you are now catholic.

Jericho

gargleblaster

Jericho Smith wrote: »

yes you are a catholic in their eyes

And Mormons think they can baptize our ancestors.

What difference does any of it make? How is it meaningful to anyone besides them?

28064212

Jericho Smith wrote: »

you are a catholic in their eyes,

SO WHAT???????

That's the exact point I've been making this entire thread. Who gives a flying fu*k what the RCC think about me? It has absolutely no effect whatsoever. I'm also (according to each respective organisation) a scout, a member of the Co2, a pastafarian, a satanist, a Mastercard customer, an Irish Independent reader, and in the ISPCA records, I'm (thanks to a prank one of my siblings played) down as a dog. In any place that actually matters, I'm none of those things.

So what the hell are you trying to achieve? If you could get your baptism record renounced, in what way would anything change? What could you do that you couldn't before? Will you suddenly be a "real" atheist?

Seriously, there are so many actual issues out there, and this isn't even an issue at all

Jericho Smith

:P i know ... but thanks for agreeing with me.it doesn't matter to most people, but it does to me i don't want to be a part of that institution. I dislike it i really do, it doesn't make me a better atheist, but i know that when a child is raped by a priest i know that i am not clouded by religious feelings (not that you are). i know my conscience is clear and that i am not part of that sick sick organisation. if only a few people begin renouncing the organisation others may follow, others will cast off the mind forged manacles (William Blake quote) of religious indoctrination and realize we are better off without it. That is all i had to say ...agreed?

Jericho

magicbastarder

you do know you're a mormon?