A protest that allows for no excuses?

Inverse to the power of one!

Just a question to ask from the "enough" protest thread.

Would it be possible to arrange a politically neutral protest organised by an independent group (Boardsies even :eek:) such that the entire population could attend without the usual "don't want to be seen with that crowd" excuse?

It's fair to say that the majority of the population feels some grievance with how the nation is run, how little change there is, as well as dissatisfaction with differing interests within the country.

Anyway to channel this to show that people do care and are willing to take action to initiate change?

AhSureTisGrand

Inverse to the power of one! wrote: »

Would it be possible to arrange a politically neutral protest

How does this work? Are we all gonna hold up banners reading, "WE HAVE NO OPINION ON THIS MATTER"?

Inverse to the power of one!

AhSureTisGrand wrote: »

How does this work? Are we all gonna hold up banners reading, "WE HAVE NO OPINION ON THIS MATTER"?

Down with that sort of thing!

Put it down as a misphrase, I should have said organised by a politically neutral party.

Liam Byrne

How are you going to keep the usual rent-a-crowd troublemakers away, though ?

nesf

I think you mean something like what's going on in Spain at the moment: http://www.economist.com/node/18959259

Can't really see that happening here, too many people remember the 80s and how tightening the belts and getting down to fixing the fiscal issues worked over the medium term.

COYW

Liam Byrne wrote: »

How are you going to keep the usual rent-a-crowd troublemakers away, though ?

I think most of the protests so far have passed off peacefully but you can't have a neutral protest. Public protests are like the funeral circuit for the hard-left politicians in this country.

Liam Byrne

COYW wrote: »

I think most of the protests so far have passed off peacefully but you can't have a neutral protest. Public protests are like the funeral circuit for the hard-left politicians in this country.

Not looking or asking for a neutral protest.

Just looking for one that doesn't involve chucking or ducking bricks.

Denerick

My placard will be this:

'I don't know the answers, none of us know the answers, but lets march around and feel like 'we're doing something' for a couple of hours'.

Inverse to the power of one!

Liam Byrne wrote: »

How are you going to keep the usual rent-a-crowd troublemakers away, though ?

F**K EM!

They are not going to deprive the rest of us of our democratic rights. Also, we do pay the Guards money we don't have to do this work don't we?

My placard will be this:

'I don't know the answers, none of us know the answers, but lets march around and feel like 'we're doing something' for a couple of hours'.

Good for you!

As pointless as you think it is, it'll still be more then is being done now. Also, protests give people a voice and further confidence to stand up for what they believe in as opposed to just another day thinking it's pointless and they are alone in their outrage.

FG/LB haven't got the message, they think it's business as usual and only the public can send the message that it's not. Care to do something more then moan about it?

nesf

Inverse to the power of one! wrote: »

FG/LB haven't got the message, they think it's business as usual and only the public can send the message that it's not. Care to do something more then moan about it?

What's the message though? Can you think of a single solution to a major problem facing us that FG/Lab are dodging that most of us would agree on? The best I can come up with is an anti-Croke Park march demanding major reform of the public sector but would that really get people out onto the streets?

BlaasForRafa

nesf wrote: »

What's the message though? Can you think of a single solution to a major problem facing us that FG/Lab are dodging that most of us would agree on? The best I can come up with is an anti-Croke Park march demanding major reform of the public sector but would that really get people out onto the streets?

The thing is, the people that are most fed up of public service workers are the people at work in the private sector and they wouldn't be able to get time off work to attend the protest...whereas ps workers seem to be able to down tools at will to attend these things.

Inverse to the power of one!

nesf wrote: »

What's the message though? Can you think of a single solution to a major problem facing us that FG/Lab are dodging that most of us would agree on? The best I can come up with is an anti-Croke Park march demanding major reform of the public sector but would that really get people out onto the streets?

The message is what ever the people want to bring to it, the majority would likely protest cuts and the governments lack of action, but you would be welcome to protest against Croke-Park. I'm just looking for a way for people to get over the usual excuses and just do something for a change.

Apathy is not an acceptable alternative, if it is, then we are truly for the toilet.

al28283

Sounds neither practical nor useful.

nesf

Inverse to the power of one! wrote: »

The message is what ever the people want to bring to it, the majority would likely protest cuts and the governments lack of action, but you would be welcome to protest against Croke-Park. I'm just looking for a way for people to get over the usual excuses and just do something for a change.

Apathy is not an acceptable alternative, if it is, then we are truly for the toilet.

Eh what use is a march where one side is saying "LESS CUTS!" and the other "MORE CUTS!" to us?

The Waltzing Consumer

Inverse to the power of one! wrote: »

The message is what ever the people want to bring to it, the majority would likely protest cuts and the governments lack of action, but you would be welcome to protest against Croke-Park. I'm just looking for a way for people to get over the usual excuses and just do something for a change.

Apathy is not an acceptable alternative, if it is, then we are truly for the toilet.

You do know we had an election this year, in February. No offense but I really hate this " I'm just looking for a way for people to get over the usual excuses and just do something for a change" sort of stuff. People had their democratic right to change things, they did that, only six months ago. They did something for a change, they voted!!! That's the change, just cause you may not like it, does not mean it is illegitimate or undemocratic.

Apathy should not be acceptable, but what is worse is people thinking they are superior and ignoring the actual democratic process that occurred, six months ago!!!

jhegarty

Inverse to the power of one! wrote: »

As pointless as you think it is, it'll still be more then is being done now. Also, protests give people a voice and further confidence to stand up for what they believe in as opposed to just another day thinking it's pointless and they are alone in their outrage.

FG/LB haven't got the message, they think it's business as usual and only the public can send the message that it's not. Care to do something more then moan about it?

But what's the change you want ?

A protest has to have an objective.

Inverse to the power of one!

jhegarty wrote: »

But what's the change you want ?

This point and the others made in a similar vein I do concede. But none the less, we are still left in a position where protests with a valid point are invalidated by the people organizing them. We can't have all protests invalidated just because organisation x whom we disagree with is the organizer.

You do know we had an election this year, in February. No offense but I really hate this " I'm just looking for a way for people to get over the usual excuses and just do something for a change" sort of stuff. People had their democratic right to change things, they did that, only six months ago. They did something for a change, they voted!!! That's the change, just cause you may not like it, does not mean it is illegitimate or undemocratic.

Apathy should not be acceptable, but what is worse is people thinking they are superior and ignoring the actual democratic process that occurred, six months ago!!!

You can look at this one in a number of ways, you can say that the people got what they voted for and deserve it........or you can say the people voted for what they thought would be getting and the service delivered has not been as promised.

Should we just apply Caveat emptor across the board and resend all legislation to do with false advertising and refunds?

Governments only respond to mass public outcry, this has been reflected in the British governments response to the Phone hacking and Expenses scandals.......This does not happen in Ireland!

By protest or any other means, I feel we should change this....call me crazy....

Cavehill Red

nesf wrote: »

What's the message though? Can you think of a single solution to a major problem facing us that FG/Lab are dodging that most of us would agree on? The best I can come up with is an anti-Croke Park march demanding major reform of the public sector but would that really get people out onto the streets?

Er, default on the bank guarantee and renege on repaying debt that this state did not accrue.

al28283

Inverse to the power of one! wrote: »

we are still left in a position where protests with a valid point are invalidated by the people organizing them.

So you'd rather protests with no point and no organisation? It doesn't seem like you've thought this out very well. I don't think I'll attend this protest

Inverse to the power of one!

al28283 wrote: »

So you'd rather protests with no point......

This point and the others made in a similar vein I do concede. But none the less, we are still left in a position where protests with a valid point are invalidated by the people organizing them. We can't have all protests invalidated just because organisation x whom we disagree with is the organizer

As said, I'm more interested in a way to get around the current impasse that let's people give in to apathy for the sake of who happens to be organizing said protests. Basically if we could stop all the usual suspects monopolizing popular protest we'd be all the better for it imo.

Or is it you only want Eirigi and the Unions to have the streets to themselves?

al28283

Inverse to the power of one! wrote: »

Or is it you only want Eirigi and the Unions to have the streets to themselves?

What? Where did you get that idea? I mentioned neither Eirigi or any Unions.

hatrickpatrick

Guilt by association is one of the most ridiculous concepts in the world.
I got slapped with this so often during the Lisbon campaign it actually made me ridiculously angry.
"Oh, you're voting no? So then you're a Shinner / BNP supporter / racist / communist then? Those are the no campaigners after all..."

So yeah I completely agree this needs to happen. ANYTHING if it will convince Irish people to get off their arses and do something about the state of our country, rather than just b*tching about it but taking no action to oppose or correct it.

al28283

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

So yeah I completely agree this needs to happen. ANYTHING if it will convince Irish people to get off their arses and do something about the state of our country, rather than just b*tching about it but taking no action to oppose or correct it.

WHAT needs to happen? Oppose or Correct what? What exactly is it you have a problem with? The state of the country? You cannot rally a large amount of people to protest on the streets about something you can't even verbalise.

Dannyboy83

nesf wrote: »

The best I can come up with is an anti-Croke Park march demanding major reform of the public sector but would that really get people out onto the streets?

IMO, That wouldn't work because it's too abstract.
And a lot of Irish people are not willing to be publicly seen to tackle the runaway public service expenditure, hence the success of places like boards.ie

Privately, I'm sure plenty of Irish people have strong opinions on the issue, if FG's near majority was anything to go by.
Publicly - they'd prefer not to air them.

The crux is, the general public are totally ignorant that Fine Gael have already abandoned their plans to reform the public sector and our runaway expenditure.
FG have their little PR exercises running.

The planned tax increases are usually whittled down to mere individual arguments such as property tax - taxes which a lot of people believe wouldn't impact them directly, but might impact their smug landlord/schadenfreude ..........why do we have no Irish word for such a common Irish trait?, lol

And the general public usually can't understand the bigger picture (I seriously doubt I would have been able to understand it either, if I hadn't learned so much from this forum over the last 3 years)


If you want to get people out on the streets, you would have to have a feature on the 6 o clock news and Prime Time and Joe Duffy, showing that Fine Gael plan to increase the tax revenue by 33% i.e. €10 billion by 2015, and show how all these taxes will directly impact various people in various categories.

Of course, we can't do that, because FG refuse to release information on how they plan to do it - assuming they have a plan. Irish politicians are too sly to give away a sensationalist headline like that. They'll just do it in dribs and drabs. Keep increasing the temperature slowly so they frogs don't notice they are being boiled alive.

tl;dr version
I believe the only way you will get the general Irish public to actually protest on the streets, is to show them specifically how they are going to be hit in the pocket themselves over the next 4 years, otherwise, aside from not understanding what is happening/going to happen, they are content to let other people protest for them.

al28283

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

If you want to get people out on the streets, you would have to have a feature on the 6 o clock news and Prime Time and Joe Duffy, showing that Fine Gael plan to increase the tax revenue by 33% i.e. €10 billion by 2015, and show how all these taxes will directly impact various people in various categories.

That doesn't sound politically neutral at all

Dannyboy83

al28283 wrote: »

WHAT needs to happen? Oppose or Correct what?

Briefly,
The Net Current Expenditure figure in this chart, needs to go down by 10 billion over the next 4 years, rather than the Net Current Revenue figure in this chart, increasing by 10 billion over the next 4 years.

al28283

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Briefly,
The Net Current Expenditure figure in this chart, needs to go down by 10 billion over the next 4 years, rather than the Net Current Revenue figure in this chart, increasing by 10 billion over the next 4 years.

So you have a problem with the financial state of the country. That's a reasonable thing to protest about

Dannyboy83

al28283 wrote: »

So you have a problem with the financial state of the country. That's a reasonable thing to protest about

Not a problem with the financial state of the country.
Complaining that I don't like cancer doesn't make it go away, you need the correct treatment.

More specifically; I have a problem with the method being undertaken to correct the financial state of the country.
And I believe a lot more people would, if our media actually sought to inform them of the proposed method.

al28283

So this politically neutral protest would really be an anti-FG protest?

Dannyboy83

al28283 wrote: »

So this politically neutral protest would really be an anti-FG protest?

Anti-FG?

No, I voted for FG. I don't have a problem with FG.
I have a problem with the fact that they lied and claimed they would reform public expenditure, when the evidence proves the policy they are pursuing will not see current expenditure shrink over the next 4 years.

I'm not anti-FG.
I'm anti-ULA, but I didn't vote for them.

al28283

OK. The OP is looking for a way to organise a neutral protest, not associated with any particular interest group in the hope that it will encourage more people to protest.
This is not possible. You can't just motivate people to get out on the streets demanding some non-specific changes be made.
To get people out on to the streets in force you need an issue to protest.
It can be schools, hospitals, spending cuts, tax increases, Croke park even off licence opening hours and wheelie bins or any and all of the above. As soon as you attach an issue to this protest it is no longer neutral, it's either for or against and the parties and interest groups et al will not stay away and keep quiet about it.

Dannyboy83

al28283 wrote: »

OK. The OP is looking for a way to organise a neutral protest, not associated with any particular interest group in the hope that it will encourage more people to protest.
This is not possible. You can't just motivate people to get out on the streets demanding some non-specific changes be made.
To get people out on to the streets in force you need an issue to protest.
It can be schools, hospitals, spending cuts, tax increases, Croke park even off licence opening hours and wheelie bins or any and all of the above. As soon as you attach an issue to this protest it is no longer neutral, it's either for or against and the parties and interest groups et al will not stay away and keep quiet about it.

I agree with you to an extent.
Only hardliners will protest over abstract issues. JoeSoap won't avert his gaze from the Rugby.

The reason I think our stupid economic strategy would cross the divide tho, is because
A) It affects all taxpayers (It crosses the Public/Private divide)
There is a clear alternative
C) The party came to power claiming they would pursue a different strategy.
D) The current strategy is immoral/unethical (that is, take even more money off those who work, both public and private, instead of eliminating wasteful government spending e.g. Social Welfare Fraud, Public Sector mismanagement, Colm McCarthy Report and so on)

For most issues tho, I think your point is accurate; People protest about specific issues. e.g Yes/No to Divorce/Abortion etc.

Inverse to the power of one!

al28283 wrote: »

OK. The OP is looking for a way to organise a neutral protest, not associated with any particular interest group in the hope that it will encourage more people to protest.
This is not possible. You can't just motivate people to get out on the streets demanding some non-specific changes be made.
To get people out on to the streets in force you need an issue to protest.
It can be schools, hospitals, spending cuts, tax increases, Croke park even off licence opening hours and wheelie bins or any and all of the above. As soon as you attach an issue to this protest it is no longer neutral, it's either for or against and the parties and interest groups et al will not stay away and keep quiet about it.

I sure did F'up that OP

I was more in mind of a neutral(not the best description) organiser as opposed to a neutral protest. Basically finding the magic umbrella people can feel comfortable to join close to what DannyBoy is suggesting.

I finally took a read of the article posted by Nesf from the Economist, it kinda does highlight what we are missing which is for the public simply to show some indignity towards the actions of a government who promised far different then what they are supplying.

Son Of A Vidic

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

You do know we had an election this year, in February. No offense but I really hate this " I'm just looking for a way for people to get over the usual excuses and just do something for a change" sort of stuff. People had their democratic right to change things, they did that, only six months ago. They did something for a change, they voted!!! That's the change, just cause you may not like it, does not mean it is illegitimate or undemocratic.

Apathy should not be acceptable, but what is worse is people thinking they are superior and ignoring the actual democratic process that occurred, six months ago!!!

Protest is our democratic right and just because we had a recent election does not mean we should be rendered silent. A lot of people in Roscommon would not have voted for Finn Gael, if they knew about the dramatic U-turn that was coming on RCH. Sadly, Irish politicians have an amazing track record for such duplicity. But apparently the people just never learn.

Dannyboy83

Inverse to the power of one! wrote: »

I was more in mind of a neutral(not the best description) organiser as opposed to a neutral protest. Basically finding the magic umbrella people can feel comfortable to join close to what DannyBoy is suggesting.

I agree with this.
There has been a distinct lack of a neutral (in that context) organisation behind any protest.
In fact, I can't remember any protest which has even represented my views - not to mind an inclusive protest - all of the protests so far have come from the left.

Dannyboy83

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

Protest is our democratic right and just because we had a recent election does not mean we should be rendered silent. A lot of people in Roscommon would not have voted for Finn Gael, if they knew about the dramatic U-turn that was coming on RCH.

Agree.

Sadly, Irish politicians have an amazing track record for such duplicity. But apparently the people just never learn.

It's not the electorate who have to learn.
They can only vote for what is offered.

The problem is our broken political system, which, where it should hold our politicians accountable, instead rewards them for dishonest tactics.

The people of Roscommon have to hope that the politicians in their constituency who lied, will do the decent thing and resign.
This is wrong.

The people of Roscommon should be able to vote on a recall of that politician and if successful, have a by-election.

It is our political system which is malfunctioning, not the electorate.

Son Of A Vidic

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

Sadly, Irish politicians have an amazing track record for such duplicity. But apparently the people just never learn.

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

It's not the electorate who have to learn.
They can only vote for what is offered.

The problem is our broken political system, which, where it should hold our politicians accountable, instead rewards them for dishonest tactics.

The people of Roscommon have to hope that the politicians in their constituency who lied, will do the decent thing and resign.
This is wrong.

The people of Roscommon should be able to vote on a recall of that politician and if successful, have a by-election.

It is our political system which is malfunctioning, not the electorate.

I absolutely agree with you on our broken political system and it's lack of accountability. But I fear that this change will never come from the inside. Only public pressure will instigate it, that was my point really. People have to realise that it has to come from them, because we can't really trust the 'shower' in the Dáil.

But I totally see the OP's point, I know a lot of people who are put off by protests affiliated with one party ect. We don't need control from a political party to direct or guide protest. But unfortunately it's next to impossible extracting them from popular protest platforms.

nesf

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Er, default on the bank guarantee and renege on repaying debt that this state did not accrue.

Would most of us agree to this though? I know I wouldn't and many/most of the people I know wouldn't.

hatrickpatrick

al28283 wrote: »

WHAT needs to happen? Oppose or Correct what? What exactly is it you have a problem with? The state of the country? You cannot rally a large amount of people to protest on the streets about something you can't even verbalise.

The fact that gamblers are being repaid after losing bets, with taxpayers money.

Fergus_Nash

Hey guys I just joined today:Dso I'm new, etc. and I was wondering if there was anyway that a group could be set up for those who support protest, irrespective of political ideology.

For example, I have right-wing views (cut Social Welfare, cut the minimum wage, don't tax the bejasus out of the wealthy and things like that) but I agree with

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Er, default on the bank guarantee and renege on repaying debt that this state did not accrue.

This is obviously an odd situation because such a viewpoint is linked with The Left but it is the case and if you were to take the examples of Shane Ross and David McWilliams actively promote default. This is just one instance where those nasty lefties:pand us normal capitalists can find common ground.

Or how about the fact that our wonderful and hard-working elected representatives are about to get a nice break during the "Summer Recess".

Or how about we get all the various protest groups (Roscommon A&E, stop the cutbacks of the SNA's, the Enough! campaign, etc.) to join in one huge day out in Dublin during the next few weeks. That may not be the easiest to do but it is just a suggestion!

However I do go back to my original point that we should try to set up a group - if possible - to organise these protests and then use the various forums to debate.

If a group like the one that I have just described has been set up then do please link it to me.

Anyway that's my two cents:)