Not receiving all saorview channels

Gerry Wicklow

I don't think anyone expects UK reception as a god given right, but the co-channel interference is a two-edged sword. There are numerous posts from people trying to get Mt. L but are getting wiped out by Preseli. Again I ask why should thousands have to change their set-up when it only needs a flick of a switch at the other end?

Peter Rhea

The troublesome Preseli muxes are 10 kW, surely a full power Mt. Leinster will blow them away in most areas?

St Senan

I asked the Saorview people at the Trade seminar a few months ago about the ch45 Mt Leinster and Preselli co channel interference. What every installer in the room was told was that comreg allocated ch45 and that the spillover of UK channels from Wales is of no concern to Saorview/RTENL . Friendo you dont have direct line of sight from your house to the Mt leinster transmitter Sliabh Bui blocks you. The only way people are going to receive both the Saorview channels and the UK channels is to have a Group B or a Wideband pointing at Mt leinster and a Freesat installed for the UK channels. Its not the whole of Wexford that is affected its only small parts along the coast or like Friendo behind a hill. http://www.saorview.ie/make-the-switch/coverage-checker/coverage-map/. People along the coast should basically get there Vhf and lowband UHF {redtip} aerials removed and turn there UK aerials to Leinster and buy a Saorview box. There will always be a difference of opinions with posters regarding Ch45 and Pressli.

Peter Rhea

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

If the likes of Winter Hill or even Emley Moor or Caldbeck or Caradon Hill had a change of aerial groups for the core PSB channels after switchover, there would be such consternation and outrage . . .

That kind of indirectly supports the point I made about people mainly being concerned about the effect on their UK reception, with the change in aerial group for Saorview being a distant 2nd place to this concern.

lucernarian

Peter Rhea wrote: »

That kind of indirectly supports the point I made about people mainly being concerned about the effect on their UK reception, with the change in aerial group for Saorview being a distant 2nd place to this concern.

Why did you leave the rest of my point out?! The part you left out said that there would be outrage on UK forums. There would be justified criticism of OfCom if Joe Licensepayer had to fork out for a new aerial as well as get Freeview-capable TVs and set top boxes for a transmitter that covers tens of thousands of houses. Even if Preseli didn't exist, there are people who will have to get a new aerial to replace their existing UHF aerials if they want to continue watching the Irish PSB channels.

My point that you quoted has nothing to do with Irish people being concerned with their overspill reception of UK channels. It's unacceptable that many people will HAVE to get a new aerial to pick up Saorview. Group A aerials are not exactly brilliant at picking up broadcasts on Ch.45 and that is a point that I and others have made regularly in the past.

Peter Rhea

A lot of UK 'Joe licencepayers' have already forked out to receive the low powered & in some cases, out of band pre-dso broadcasts.

I was referring to the point I made about reading through past threads here (so I should have included your reference to UK forums, at least), where the reception of the Irish channels didn't really seem to enter in to the equation at all.

Other readers should really read the full quoted post or the rest of the thread for context.

marclt

I think the point here is, that it was an avoidable situation. I wouldn't expect spillover reception to be an issue for RTE/ComReg or anyone else, but you might think they would be interested in protecting their own signals from interference.

To think that in most cases in the UK, analogue and digital signals co-existed in the same band for long enough before ASO and then the analogue frequencies were reused.

Was it an error, or was it a calculated risk to reduce spill over? There must have been some financial justification to proceed with Arklow and Forth Mountain as new sites and to upgrade Gorey (which has very few analogue aerials pointing toward it) for digital. Especially in a time when the number of smaller sites was being reduced considerably.

Begob

To_be_confirmed wrote:

I remember that Mt. Leinster has channels 30 and 34 cleared to use after DSO, but DSO is already complete in all the foreign areas which could possibly be affected by Mt. Leinster, so I don't see the need to persist in using a new aerial group for viewers in most of the southeast. The Kilduff, Waterford, Forth Mountain and Arklow TX sites have all been added in different places near the fringe of Mt. Leinster's service area. It's a funny coincidence, seeing as no other main TX in this country has had anything like 4 brand new UHF TV stations opened in its service area. Would there have been 4 new relays or a main site opened if Mt. Leinster continued to broadcast within the existing analogue UHF group?

marclt wrote: »

Was it an error, or was it a calculated risk to reduce spill over? There must have been some financial justification to proceed with Arklow and Forth Mountain as new sites and to upgrade Gorey (which has very few analogue aerials pointing toward it) for digital. Especially in a time when the number of smaller sites was being reduced considerably.

Ya know you both could have something there.

Hundreds of thousands spent on those transmitters when ch 39 comes in so clear in a lot of the places they're supposed to be needed but no 45.
It has to be RTE at it again like the good old days when I was a bit goodyounger than now they tried to jam the welsh in wexford with that transmitter up in longford.
What have we ever done to them eh?
Where I live , theres about 50 houses scattered around that always had the welsh and still have but now they're going to have to spend money on a satelite yoke to get RTE and this is only an hours drive from dublin.
None of us can get a squeek out of arkla,gorey or kippure or forth but we have leinster 39.
Theres going to be some laugh at the end of next year.
Pardon my french but this is too much of a monumental feck up again to be a coincidence and I've a feelin RTE don't care as long as you and me are payin their fat salary.

Peter Rhea

Spend money on a satellite 'yoke' to get the UK channels & forget the 'Welsh'.

marclt

marclt wrote: »

Was it an error, or was it a calculated risk to reduce spill over?

Begob wrote: »

Ya know you both could have something there.

Hundreds of thousands spent on those transmitters when ch 39 comes in so clear in a lot of the places they're supposed to be needed but no 45.
It has to be RTE at it again like the good old days when I was a bit goodyounger than now they tried to jam the welsh in wexford with that transmitter up in longford.
What have we ever done to them eh?

Jamming more like it, considering that the Freeview channels that are encrypted on Sky (Dave, Pick TV etc) are on 45, and these are the very ones that would make people on the east coast want Freeview in the first place. The frequency allocation is awful, whoever thought that up? ... before someone corrects me I know it was the ITU but I just can't fathom why you'd allocate the same channels to two transmitters in close proximity to each other.

Despite this, I'm not concerned about UK reception. I'm concerned about those who will have to look at Saorsat or Sky to pick up RTÉ even without any aerials pointed towards Wales.

Vince Cable

Begob wrote: »

this is too much of a monumental feck up again . . .

Again? So you think the frequencies used at Cairn Hill (serving the midlands) were deliberately chosen to co-channel with Welsh transmitters (then again, most of your post has the tone of a piss-take).

Vince Cable

Karsini wrote: »

Jamming more like it, considering that the Freeview channels that are encrypted on Sky (Dave, Pick TV etc) are on 45, and these are the very ones that would make people on the east coast want Freeview in the first place.

There's no guarantee of any channels remaining on Freeview beyond the PSBs (if even), especially that Sky & UKTV owned tat.

Gerry Wicklow

I suppose it is only coincidence that Mt L is also allocated 42 and 49, the other commercial frequencies from Preseli.:eek:

FRIENDO

Hi Scaller, I'm very happy with my set up. Thanks to RTENL I have perfect Saorview from Forth cable going direct to STB, Thanks to UK almost (CH45) perfect freeview going to my mpeg 2 tv and I also have freesat HDR.
And a big thanks to all the help I got from people on Tech Boards.

FRIENDO

Gerry Wicklow wrote: »

I suppose it is only coincidence that Mt L is also allocated 42 and 49, the other commercial frequencies from Preseli.:eek:

:eek:

lucernarian

scaller wrote: »

I asked the Saorview people at the Trade seminar a few months ago about the ch45 Mt Leinster and Preselli co channel interference. What every installer in the room was told was that comreg allocated ch45 and that the spillover of UK channels from Wales is of no concern to Saorview/RTENL . Friendo you dont have direct line of sight from your house to the Mt leinster transmitter Sliabh Bui blocks you. The only way people are going to receive both the Saorview channels and the UK channels is to have a Group B or a Wideband pointing at Mt leinster and a Freesat installed for the UK channels. Its not the whole of Wexford that is affected its only small parts along the coast or like Friendo behind a hill. http://www.saorview.ie/make-the-switch/coverage-checker/coverage-map/. People along the coast should basically get there Vhf and lowband UHF {redtip} aerials removed and turn there UK aerials to Leinster and buy a Saorview box. There will always be a difference of opinions with posters regarding Ch45 and Pressli.

But that doesn't address the other, more notable point about Mt. Leinster: people throughout the service area will need a change of aerial in many cases if they want to continue watching RTÉ terrestrially. I couldn't care that much about the loss of spillover reception when Freesat offers a viable alternative. I do care that people who have Group A aerials throughout the southeast will need a Group B aerial fitted instead. Or have to get a new aerial pointed to some relay or other, like Friendo or else have to get an aerial fitted where an indoor aerial would have worked.


If people in the UK felt the need to get large wideband yagis like the DAT75 to pick up Freeview before switchover, I say good for them. They had the money to pay for the installation. At least no one in the UK who just wants to watch the 4 largest channels after switchover, has to get an aerial changed in the vast majority of cases and certainly not if their aerial is horizontally polarised and in working order.

Using frequency allocations for the COM muxes from Blaenplywf (along with channel 32) would have worked better, as it wouldn't have any larger effect on Wales than using the COM allocations for Preseli currently dobut unlike Preseli, Blaenplywf is nulled towards Ireland and would cause much less interference along the Irish coast. More importantly, 22-25-28-32 are in the existing analogue UHF aerial group and while they're co-channel with Caradon Hill PSB muxes, the distance between the two should avoid interference in all but the most severe tropospheric ducting conditions.

marclt

Vince Cable wrote: »

Again? So you think the frequencies used at Cairn Hill (serving the midlands) were deliberately chosen to co-channel with Welsh transmitters (then again, most of your post has the tone of a piss-take).

I wouldn't say deliberately chosen, but they were very strong towards the south east and well out of area. There were some channel offsets iirc.

marclt

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

But that doesn't address the other, more notable point about Mt. Leinster: people throughout the service area will need a change of aerial in many cases if they want to continue watching RTÉ terrestrially....

Using frequency allocations for the COM muxes from Blaenplywf (along with channel 32) would have worked better, as it wouldn't have any larger effect on Wales than using the COM allocations for Preseli currently dobut unlike Preseli, Blaenplywf is nulled towards Ireland and would cause much less interference along the Irish coast. More importantly, 22-25-28-32 are in the existing analogue UHF aerial group and while they're co-channel with Caradon Hill PSB muxes, the distance between the two should avoid interference in all but the most severe tropospheric ducting conditions.

QUESTION IS NOW.. How do we effect a change? The politicians don't seem interested and many of them are bamboozled by technical talk (written for them by officials) when questions are asked of them in the Dail.

All of this is being allowed to happen because Saorsat is the prodigal Plan B.

Even using the old analogue allocation post switchover, which is still possible(?) interference would be minimised, they could take their pick of 23, 26, 30 or 34 and still use 39 if necessary.

lucernarian

When's the next RRC (Regional Radio Conference) for UHF allocations?!

The Cush

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

When's the next RRC (Regional Radio Conference) for UHF allocations?!

Using the last 2 as a guide I'd say about 2050 or whenever they replace digital broadcasting with a newer technology. Any changes to the current plan will be down to international coordination between countries.

lucernarian

The Cush wrote: »

Using the last 2 as a guide I'd say about 2050 or whenever they replace digital broadcasting with a newer technology. Any changes to the current plan will be down to international coordination between countries.

Thanks for that.

What do you think, should there be action taken between the two governments to remedy the frequency clash between Preseli (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10555298) and Mt. Leinster, where many people will need their aerials changed to continue watching the Irish PSBs?

Or is this a minor issue that can be dealt with through Saorsat or getting new aerials installed for the people who live in a dodgy reception area and don't already have a wideband UHF aerial?

Antenna

FRIENDO wrote: »

I sometimes wonder about Ch45 co-channel inteference
Ch45 Preseli, Wales carrys Sky News, Pick TV, Pick TV +1, Dave, Dave +1 it also used to carry Sky 3 and Sky sports news.
Many of the above channels are popular on the Sky platform pay per view in Ireland.
I often wonder who is really behind co-channel interference ??

its a bit far-fetched to (indirectly) suggest that SKY might have something to do with the UHF channel usage of concern here!

Begob

From readin here,it looks like rte wanted to make themselves the only one doing digital on an aerial by clashin with as many foreign frequencies as they could where people were getting them,so they could put on those channels themselves and charge us for them.
That backfired as the money growing on them tree's ran out.
I'd say sky had nothing to do with it.

lawhec

Begob wrote: »

From readin here,it looks like rte wanted to make themselves the only one doing digital on an aerial by clashin with as many foreign frequencies as they could where people were getting them,so they could put on those channels themselves and charge us for them.
That backfired as the money growing on them tree's ran out.
I'd say sky had nothing to do with it.

The only co-channel clash I'm aware of is Mt. Leinster/Preseli - there's none I can think of straight away around the border anyway. Also the idea that Carin Hill was brought in service to disrupt viewing of Welsh TV along the SW coast is at best a bit far fetched...

The co-channel clash between Mt. Leinster and Preseli on affects a very small percentage of potential Saorview viewers. In terms of frequency allocation, I can only assume E45 was assigned originally as part of a commercial four-multiplex roll out which has stuck since that original plan has been dropped for now. Allocations in E22-25-28-32 might have been suitable, but would need to have been tested against other transmitters for co-channel interference on the same frequencies. Brougher Mountain springs to mind off the top of my head.

lucernarian

Brougher Mountain is quite a distance from Mt. Leinster, and its service area being defined by the border, is just too far away to be affected in any way by Mt. Leinster except in strong tropospheric ducting conditions I would imagine. Hypothetically, there could be places in the midlands who lose out on Brougher reception because of Mt. Leinster but those overspill concerns are secondary to providing proper in-group PSB multiplex coverage.

In any case, Brougher Mountain is much further away than Preseli is! I think we know how much testing ComReg carried out when people in Mt. Leinster's service area are picking up Preseli on an indoor aerial!

The original RRC-06 allocations should have been tested too, but that didn't stop them making a balls of Mt. Leinster and forcing thousands to get new UHF aerials too when switchover happens!

And yes, the Group B channels were assigned with a view to commercial broadcasts and one PSB multiplex. The RRC-06 plan is being used for two multiplexes, except channels above E59 are avoided.

The Cush

lawhec wrote: »

In terms of frequency allocation, I can only assume E45 was assigned originally as part of a commercial four-multiplex roll out which has stuck since that original plan has been dropped for now.

Mt Leinster allocations 39-42-45-49 go back further than RRC-06, they were part of the original draft DTT plan from the late '90s.

lawhec

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

Brougher Mountain is quite a distance from Mt. Leinster, and its service area being defined by the border, is just too far away to be affected in any way by Mt. Leinster except in strong tropospheric ducting conditions I would imagine. Hypothetically, there could be places in the midlands who lose out on Brougher reception because of Mt. Leinster but those overspill concerns are secondary to providing proper in-group PSB multiplex coverage.

In any case, Brougher Mountain is much further away than Preseli is! I think we know how much testing ComReg carried out when people in Mt. Leinster's service area are picking up Preseli on an indoor aerial!

The original RRC-06 allocations should have been tested too, but that didn't stop them making a balls of Mt. Leinster and forcing thousands to get new UHF aerials too when switchover happens!

And yes, the Group B channels were assigned with a view to commercial broadcasts and one PSB multiplex. The RRC-06 plan is being used for two multiplexes, except channels above E59 are avoided.

You'd be surprised just how far north Mt. Leinster gets, at least on FM - it can get right into South Fermanagh and even into parts of Enniskillen in flat conditions. I don't know exactly how far TV penetrates on either VHF or UHF, but I would make the educated assumption that co-channel interference in part of Brougher's service area would be possible. Also tropospheric enhancement would reduce the overall reliability for both sites. Over the past few years I've seen posts from people in the midlands enquiring about why they can only get a few Freeview channels and not all of them, and quite often TG4 and TV3 from Mt. Leinster are responsible for knocking out the reception of two multiplexes. As for the service area being defined by the border, radio waves have the habit of not following man-made political boundaries - the analogue tv signal in Cavan town from Brougher is almost as good as that in Enniskillen.

Yes, I agree the allocations between Mt. Leinster and Preseli on the face of it is a balls up. I've suggested in the past that the first Saorview multiplex should be moved to E34 to (a) be compatible with current Group A UHF aerials, (b) it should still be reasonably picked up well by Group B aerials, and (c) it would allow easy diplexing of signals from both Mt. Leinster & Preseli aerials.

Mexecutioner

marclt wrote: »

Was it an error, or was it a calculated risk to reduce spill over? There must have been some financial justification to proceed with Arklow and Forth Mountain as new sites and to upgrade Gorey....

Calculated risk gets my vote, specially since the channels seem to have been allocated way back when pay DTT would have had a chance.

lucernarian

lawhec wrote: »

You'd be surprised just how far north Mt. Leinster gets, at least on FM - it can get right into South Fermanagh and even into parts of Enniskillen in flat conditions. I don't know exactly how far TV penetrates on either VHF or UHF, but I would make the educated assumption that co-channel interference in part of Brougher's service area would be possible. Also tropospheric enhancement would reduce the overall reliability for both sites. Over the past few years I've seen posts from people in the midlands enquiring about why they can only get a few Freeview channels and not all of them, and quite often TG4 and TV3 from Mt. Leinster are responsible for knocking out the reception of two multiplexes. As for the service area being defined by the border, radio waves have the habit of not following man-made political boundaries - the analogue tv signal in Cavan town from Brougher is almost as good as that in Enniskillen.

Yes, I agree the allocations between Mt. Leinster and Preseli on the face of it is a balls up. I've suggested in the past that the first Saorview multiplex should be moved to E34 to (a) be compatible with current Group A UHF aerials, (b) it should still be reasonably picked up well by Group B aerials, and (c) it would allow easy diplexing of signals from both Mt. Leinster & Preseli aerials.

I wouldn't be suprised, I can pick up Beat 102 in Louth with a mediocre radio, and very good Mt. Leinster VHF and UHF TV with the right aerials. Colour is a bit washed out compared to closer transmitters, but reception was still sharp and snow-free.

My point about the border was that the service area was relatively small in comparison to the area that people on both sides of the border actually use Brougher. So long as the area roughly between Brougher Mtn. and Belturbet is able to enjoy good Brougher Mtn. reception, then it will overpower stray Mt. Leinster signals in all but the most extreme tropospheric ducting cases. If people in Westmeath end up losing out on reception every so often, it'll have to be a secondary concern to those who will lose out on Saorview completely or the more common scenario of having to pay for a replacement aerial.

For example, any report of someone failing to pick up Mt. Leinster's Mux 1 on Ch. E45 despite using a properly-aligned Group B aerial was due to inherently weaker Mt. Leinster reception because of terrain in combination with the co-channel interference from Preseli. Tropospheric ducting made the problem more widespread but that can't always be avoided, even my family's had problems with Cairn Hill reception being disrupted by Black Hill in Scotland once.

That's why I wouldn't be too concerned about CCI between Brougher and Mt. Leinster as the 130-mile-odd gap between the two, over land, would allow for reasonably-high power broadcasts. Though exactly how high is beyond my answering. I know the CH97 and GE06 agreements worked out formulae for the protection ratios required and for the distances needed to coordinate services etc etc. It's all academic anyway as so far, ComReg and OfCom have shown no interest at re-opening this process. If we borrow the UK's example, we'd need clearance at around 100KW peak ERP to replicate existing service from Mt. Leinster.

Of course, the existing Group A allocation for Mt. Leinster could also be used in an instantaneous switchover, with existing restrictions on UHF broadcasts carried over for DTT. Someone suggested this earlier. There were relays on coastal Wales which broadcast on Chs. 23 and 26 in analogue times, and the protection ratios for DTT are less stringent now than for analogue if anything (20dB off the top of my head) so that could also work out if ComReg and OfCom were to put their heads together.

Edit: and yes, while using Ch. 34 would be welcome, using Ch. 39 aswell means that some people will have to get Group A aerials instead of Group B aerials, albeit a far smaller number. But Group B aerials are better at picking up Group A channels than Group A aerials are at picking up Group B channels. So moving both channels to Ch. 30 and Ch.34 would be good in my eyes, and any future multiplex plans by the BAI or ComReg can involve a heart-to-heart with OfCom;)

zanardi

For what it's worth, I just got saorview and freeview working in a mobile home in Ballymoney near Gorey.

There was a colour king bowtie pointing at Preseli, and a vhf aerial pointing at mt. Leinster. These were connected to a masthead amp.

Could get freeview (except mux @c45), but saorview only in rare weather conditions. So bought a small black uhf aerial for 15 euro, and swapped out the vhf one. Still no rte, turns out that the amp wasn't wideband in it had a uhf and vhf input (maybe they are all like that).

Since I was up the ladder, I decided to ignore my Kevin street impedence matching lessons and just stick both into the uhf port. It worked fine, signal quality and level both in the high 90s. I possibly could have skipped swapping the aerials and just used the uhf port.

Still no welsh ch 45 of course, but good enough for the time being.