Are we becoming too afraid of men?

southsiderosie

A (male) friend of mine posted a link to this essay on Facebook, and I was a bit surprised by it. Ostensibly it is about how men should approach women in public that they are interested in (and did have some pretty solid comments about reading "NO" signals), but I was a bit disturbed by the opening premise:

Now, you want to become acquainted with a woman you see in public. The first thing you need to understand is that women are dealing with a set of challenges and concerns that are strange to you, a man. To begin with, we would rather not be killed or otherwise violently assaulted.


“But wait! I don’t want that, either!”

Well, no. But do you think about it all the time? Is preventing violent assault or murder part of your daily routine, rather than merely something you do when you venture into war zones? Because, for women, it is. When I go on a date, I always leave the man’s full name and contact information written next to my computer monitor. This is so the cops can find my body if I go missing. My best friend will call or e-mail me the next morning, and I must answer that call or e-mail before noon-ish, or she begins to worry. If she doesn’t hear from me by three or so, she’ll call the police. My activities after dark are curtailed. Unless I am in a densely-occupied, well-lit space, I won’t go out alone. Even then, I prefer to have a friend or two, or my dogs, with me. Do you follow rules like these?

So when you, a stranger, approach me, I have to ask myself: Will this man rape me?

Do you think I’m overreacting? One in every six American women will be sexually assaulted in her lifetime. I bet you don’t think you know any rapists, but consider the sheer number of rapes that must occur. These rapes are not all committed by Phillip Garrido, Brian David Mitchell, or other members of the Brotherhood of Scary Hair and Homemade Religion. While you may assume that none of the men you know are rapists, I can assure you that at least one is. Consider: if every rapist commits an average of ten rapes (a horrifying number, isn’t it?) then the concentration of rapists in the population is still a little over one in sixty. That means four in my graduating class in high school. One among my coworkers. One in the subway car at rush hour. Eleven who work out at my gym. How do I know that you, the nice guy who wants nothing more than companionship and True Love, are not this rapist?

I don’t.

When you approach me in public, you are Schrödinger’s Rapist. You may or may not be a man who would commit rape. I won’t know for sure unless you start sexually assaulting me. I can’t see inside your head, and I don’t know your intentions. If you expect me to trust you—to accept you at face value as a nice sort of guy—you are not only failing to respect my reasonable caution, you are being cavalier about my personal safety.

Now I've lived on my own in three different countries, gone on holiday by myself, and even driven halfway across the United States solo, so I'm pretty aware that women need to take certain precautions when out and about as regards to personal safety. But this seems pretty...extreme. Yes dating requires a leap of faith, and most American cities are more dangerous than European cities, but this seems to be going pretty far.

Is to too cavalier to assume in this day and age that most guys you meet while out are decent? What levels of precaution do you think are necessary (if any) when meeting someone new? Personally I go out at night alone, but I rely on my gut even if it comes off as rude - if someone seems weird or alarm bells start going off in my head, I make a quick exit - but what this woman is writing about seems excessive.

Ickle Magoo

I think it's needlessly caricaturing that many women justifiably feel wary when approached in certain circumstances but I certainly think the pendulum can swing too far over the other side and there becomes a "consider all men rapists until proven otherwise" type hysteria.

On one hand it could be argued that some women are too afraid of men - on the other it can equally be argued that more and more women are reporting regular interactions with men who show appallingly little self-restraint or consideration in their quest for the opposite sex...which is the egg and which the chicken and who should be mindful of their behaviour?

There's a similar disagreement going on among - but not exclusive to - the atheist community...to paraphrase another poster (sorry)

PZ blogged about it, Dawkins sounded off in the comments section, Watson went nuclear. And now, it's gone viral, even earning a post on Phil Plait's Bad Astronomy.

Interesting take on the whole male approaching female and the astonishing response to RW's post here...

For the record, I think a bit of cop-on, consideration and basic respecting of the social cues that are used in every other instance of human interaction would go a long way to solving the issue - for both genders.

WesternNight

I do think the writing in the OP is a bit hyperbolic. Those concerns would be in the back of my mind initially, but they're usually fleeting enough as it tends to become fairly clear fairly quickly whether or not someone means you harm (although I'm sure it's not always the case).

With regards to the Rebecca Watson thing, I think her initial comment was entirely justified given the context. It's just a pity people reacted badly to it, and she has since exacerbated the whole thing and it's just gotten ridiculous at this stage. It's possibly not the best example unless we stick to discussing her commenting on the original incident rather than the fallout, because that gets no-one anywhere unfortunately.

That essay is a bit scary

When I go on a date, I always leave the man’s full name and contact information written next to my computer monitor. This is so the cops can find my body if I go missing. My best friend will call or e-mail me the next morning, and I must answer that call or e-mail before noon-ish, or she begins to worry. If she doesn’t hear from me by three or so, she’ll call the police.

So when you, a stranger, approach me, I have to ask myself: Will this man rape me?

I mean okay I don't like being out alone after dark in some areas but I'm as afraid of a mugging as anything else!! In other areas like at home I'm quite happy to go out running at night time, love it.

When meeting someone new I probably let people know where I'm going and that's it...

LenaClaire

I will admit that I used to be very wary of men. Partly because I grew up in a neighborhood where there was at least one shooting or murder each weekend but also because I have had men try to assault me.

I think it is a lot more common in big cities in the US to have a lot of fear if you are a woman at night. My high school was an all girls school and your first year they taught self defense courses. We thought it was silly until one of the girls in our year had a guy with a knife try to pull her down an alley. She got a deep cut but got away... we didn't think it was so silly after that.

So, yes, I think that article is over the top and leads to fear mongering but I also think that a lot of women have a valid reason to be worried about strange men. I honestly feel a hundred times safer walking around at night in Ireland than I ever did in the US.

metrovelvet

In Ireland the communities are so small, even Dublin, that traceability is not that hard to do.

In the US metropolises it's very difficult and you really dont know who you are dating from adam. While I find the post it note at work a bit OTT I can see where she is coming from. I can see the sense in asking for ID too, not that you would be able to tell if it were fake or not. If you are set up through a mutual friend its one thing, but if you are on a site or meet on the street or any number of ways, you just do not know what you are bargaining for.

I also know a couple of girls in NYC who were rohipnoled. One ended up with a case of genital warts from it. If you don;t know there ID and where they can be traced too you have no means of doing anything about anything.

metrovelvet

I would also contest that European cities are safer than American ones. I grew up in NYC and I have not been a victim of crime ONCE in NYC, but Dublin I have a few times, and would be much more afraid of walking the streets with all those drunk people out at 3 am than I ever would in NYC.

LenaClaire

metrovelvet wrote: »

I would also contest that European cities are safer than American ones. I grew up in NYC and I have not been a victim of crime ONCE in NYC, but Dublin I have a few times, and would be much more afraid of walking the streets with all those drunk people out at 3 am than I ever would in NYC.

I guess it boils down to personal experience. I grew up in Chicago and had guns pulled on me, attempted attacks etc but have not had any issues anywhere in Europe.

Jack B. Badd

It sounds to me like the author has bought a bit too far into "stranger danger". If I were raped it would be much more likely to be by a man known to me than a stranger. I apply common sense to situations when around men (or women) that are strangers to me but the fact of the matter is that I'm not as wary when around my boyfriend, male family members, relatives & work colleagues. It makes sense on an intellectual level to be wary of the men in my life more than strangers but that way madness lies imo.

Stheno

southsiderosie wrote: »

A (male) friend of mine posted a link to this essay on Facebook, and I was a bit surprised by it. Ostensibly it is about how men should approach women in public that they are interested in (and did have some pretty solid comments about reading "NO" signals), but I was a bit disturbed by the opening premise:



Now I've lived on my own in three different countries, gone on holiday by myself, and even driven halfway across the United States solo, so I'm pretty aware that women need to take certain precautions when out and about as regards to personal safety. But this seems pretty...extreme. Yes dating requires a leap of faith, and most American cities are more dangerous than European cities, but this seems to be going pretty far.

Is to too cavalier to assume in this day and age that most guys you meet while out are decent? What levels of precaution do you think are necessary (if any) when meeting someone new? Personally I go out at night alone, but I rely on my gut even if it comes off as rude - if someone seems weird or alarm bells start going off in my head, I make a quick exit - but what this woman is writing about seems excessive.

I think it's kinda sad tbh, I'd an older man ask me for directions from his car the other day, never occurred to me he wanted anything else.

There's a bloke in a wheelchair who is on my trip to work, he was out of his wheelchair one day (adjusting the wheels iirc) and no one male or female was put off asking if he was ok.

metrovelvet wrote: »

I would also contest that European cities are safer than American ones. I grew up in NYC and I have not been a victim of crime ONCE in NYC, but Dublin I have a few times, and would be much more afraid of walking the streets with all those drunk people out at 3 am than I ever would in NYC.

I lived in Dublin 1 in 1998 when it was not the best area, yet never hesitated to walk to the chipper at 12am, it was about getting to know your neighbours, even now I'd use that experience, and just live and let live.

I never tended to go out after 12am

On the whole I expect people to treat me with respect, I
will stop to help people with punctures in their cars, I'll help people having an accident in the street, and I do it regardless of gender.

What may have influenced that is my working in a massively male dominated environment, but I've never come across a guy (out of three) who doesn't appreciate a bit of help changing a tyre, or someone enjoying a cheeky smile or a polite word.

I guess I may be over trusting, but I do believe in the fundamental good of people

ToniTuddle

I've taken what folks would call some serious "chances" by walking home in certain parts of New York and Auckland or even in my local town in recent years. It just didn't feel dangerous too me so I did take the chance at those times. Fair enough I had my keys in through my fingers so if anyone did jump me I'd take their eye out!
Until one incident where I seriously learnt my lesson and I make damn sure I've enough money to get a taxi home even if it's only a 5 min walk. It's not worth the risk.

It's horrible though thinking like that and I bloody hate thinking like that. Feeling afraid to walk in certain areas even in daylight times

dashboard_hula

I read stuff quite similar to that essay often enough on Jezebel and my reaction is always "Jesus would you ever calm down". I really don't like this often American female view of regarding the entire male population as potential rapists without taking into account how incredibly sexist that is.
I do think that the mindset is quite different, and it was illustrated to me one day while speaking to an American friend who described an incident where a man slithered up to me one night in a late bar and grabbed my bum as "sexual assault".
Ok - I myself would describe it as "a wanker chancing his arse" however I elbowed him out of my way, roared at him to fúck off and all was well. I didn't see that as sexual assault, she did and that's where the divide is.

Edit - not meaning to tar all American women as hysterical whingebags btw.

metrovelvet

Americans would definitely think a strange man grabbing your ass is sexual assault. That doesnt make her a hysterical whingebag, it makes her aware of boundaries and legally where she stands. That's another reason I would feel safer in the US, the law is more clear cut and you can report things to the police without being accused of being a hysterical whingebag.

krudler

It does come across as a little hysterical alright, seems like she'd be on a dinner date eating her food with one hand and one hand clutched firmly on a can of mace. Theres nothing wrong with being careful at all though, I definitely wouldnt want a female friend or partner walking around a city centre late by herself and wouldnt see it as hassle to go pick someone up if they needed it rather than let them get home by themselves. Like was aleady said common sense in these situations goes a long way, but it is pretty sad to have to assume every guy is a rapist unless proven otherwise.

dashboard_hula

Ok, straight up my apologies for using the term hysterical whingebag.

I have a different opinion to what constitutes sexual assault because I think that lumping crass behaviour and social idiocy in with rape and molestation dilutes the absolute unacceptableness/taboo/what the hell is the term I'm looking for that sexual offences should be seen as, ie. a young fella dropping the hand and getting a thump for his efforts should not be lumped in with a man dragging a woman down an alley and raping her in terms of social regard and criminal consequence.
A young man will get to know better by the disdain of his peers for being a tit, and a rapist will be jailed for being a criminal. We hope.

metrovelvet

^ Touching someone at all without their permission is a minor assault charge right there.... you can't just grab someone's ass..ffs.

metrovelvet

dashboard_hula wrote: »

Ok, straight up my apologies for using the term hysterical whingebag.

I have a different opinion to what constitutes sexual assault because I think that lumping crass behaviour and social idiocy in with rape and molestation dilutes the absolute unacceptableness/taboo/what the hell is the term I'm looking for that sexual offences should be seen as, ie. a young fella dropping the hand and getting a thump for his efforts should not be lumped in with a man dragging a woman down an alley and raping her in terms of social regard and criminal consequence.
A young man will get to know better by the disdain of his peers for being a tit, and a rapist will be jailed for being a criminal. We hope.

Sexual assault has degrees to it, just as regular assault does. To touch someone without their permission, is an assault albeit a minor one, same goes with sexual assault.

You cannot grab someone's ass, gentitals or breasts, just because you feel like it.

dashboard_hula

*shrug* - that's where our opinions differ tbh. You see touching someones bum without express invitation as sexual assault, I see it as obnoxious.

dashboard_hula

metrovelvet wrote: »

Sexual assault has degrees to it, just as regular assault does. To touch someone without their permission, is an assault albeit a minor one, same goes with sexual assault.

You cannot grab someone's ass, gentitals or breasts, just because you feel like it.

I agree with you that you cannot grab someone "just because you feel like it" - I just believe that it should be dealt in a way that the woman sees fit.

metrovelvet

dashboard_hula wrote: »

I agree with you that you cannot grab someone "just because you feel like it" - I just believe that it should be dealt in a way that the woman sees fit.

Like elbowing them? Punching them? Knifing them?

Then YOU could be charged with assault.

That is why the sex assault charge exists, so you can do something without resorting to violence.

Count Duckula

It's not just the touching that's the problem though, DH, but what that represents. A man who does that to a woman is not merely placing his hands somewhere unwanted, he is placing them on a sexual part of the woman's body, and he is doing it clearly without her consent. What clearer indication is there that he wants her sexually and isn't uncomfortable with simply physically accosting her to get it?

Couple that with the fact that most men tend to be bigger and stronger than most women, chances are the person "dropping the hand" is larger. So not only are they giving express signals that they want a woman sexually and without regard for consent, they are also physically strong enough to take it too. This is an important point, because if you take away the potential, the whole thing becomes a lot less scary. I had a woman who was clearly off her head on drugs grab my groin at a gig once, quite forcefully, but I was literally twice her size and so it was no more scary than it was annoying and startling. But consider if the situations were reversed, and I (at twice her size) had accosted her. Suddenly, things take a far more unpleasant and potentially dangerous turn.

Yes, were it not an obvious sexual move, perhaps it would be a simply case of elbowing them and telling them to **** off, but it is an obvious sexual move, and that carries the implied threat of "what if they take this further"?

dashboard_hula

I genuinely appreciate the fear that women have of assault, sexual or otherwise, no matter how low level or unconscious that is. I by no means excuse or explain away the responsibility of men to behave in an appropriate manner either. As metrovelvet states, in the US there are laws to resort to without taking it upon yourself to retaliate and fair enough, use those laws if they're there.
However, in a nightclub situation, when I've been drinking and someone somes up to me and grabs my bum, I am not going to immediately take a photo of him on my phone, request the statements of witnesses, alert the guards and pursue him to the full extent of Irish law (and no, I don't know what provisions exist in our legal system for sexual assault, thankfully I've never had to find out). Instead, I am going to tell him to f*** off, encourage him to do so with my elbow, and carry on. That is my choice to do so. If someone does something which I regard as more serious, then you will hear me screaming 3 streets away and I will go the whole hog to hold them accountable.
That's just my way of dealing with it. Others have different ways, I don't for one minute deny any woman the right to deal with what happens to her in her own way. My opinion is that public embarassment can go quite a long way and that's my first response.

The Sweeper

ToniTuddle wrote: »

Fair enough I had my keys in through my fingers so if anyone did jump me I'd take their eye out!
Until one incident where I seriously learnt my lesson and I make damn sure I've enough money to get a taxi home even if it's only a 5 min walk. It's not worth the risk.

You're dead right, it isn't worth the risk.

If you're walking somewhere with your keys sticking out through your fingers, you need to be in a taxi, or phoning a friend to come and meet you, or doing something to mean you're no longer unsafe.

Problem with the keys, self-defence mode, is often an assault won't be someone jumping you from behind. Maybe someone approaches you and asks you the time - you look down at your watch and you're broadsided.

Cultural conditioning to politeness means most women don't assume they're about to get raped - and even if they're wary, most won't respond to 'Excuse me have you got the time' with 'GET AWAY FROM ME' and taking off running because they don't want to look like a madwoman.

um7y1h83ge06nx

As a man I think the article is a little OTT but women should use common sense when meeting what is essentially a stranger.

I'd always arrange a first date somewhere public in order for the girl to feel relaxed. I might ask if she wants to be picked up but if she says no I wouldn't push it. A girl told me once that a guy asked if she wanted to "go for a spin" for a first date. She was a bit hesitant and arranged to meet in a pub instead and I couldn't blame her.

That said, men take risks too by getting into private situations with females that are relatively strangers. She could have some severe issues and make false allegations, attempted rape accusations etc. I was in a situation once where a girl and I were getting physical and engaging in foreplay. Everything was fine, completely consensual on both sides. Suddenly she must have had second thoughts, fair enough. However instead of just saying that as you would expect her to, she instead just flipped out and ran out of the bedroom into her friend's room, where her friend and my friend were. Thankfully everything was cool, her friend just told me "she gets like that sometimes" .

I by now was very concerned and freaked out and just left. If I saw her again I'd keep as far away as possible from her. Either she has some sort of issues or she's just evil.

Count Duckula

dashboard_hula wrote: »

I genuinely appreciate the fear that women have of assault, sexual or otherwise, no matter how low level or unconscious that is. I by no means excuse or explain away the responsibility of men to behave in an appropriate manner either. As metrovelvet states, in the US there are laws to resort to without taking it upon yourself to retaliate and fair enough, use those laws if they're there.
However, in a nightclub situation, when I've been drinking and someone somes up to me and grabs my bum, I am not going to immediately take a photo of him on my phone, request the statements of witnesses, alert the guards and pursue him to the full extent of Irish law (and no, I don't know what provisions exist in our legal system for sexual assault, thankfully I've never had to find out). Instead, I am going to tell him to f*** off, encourage him to do so with my elbow, and carry on. That is my choice to do so. If someone does something which I regard as more serious, then you will hear me screaming 3 streets away and I will go the whole hog to hold them accountable.
That's just my way of dealing with it. Others have different ways, I don't for one minute deny any woman the right to deal with what happens to her in her own way. My opinion is that public embarassment can go quite a long way and that's my first response.

But what if that guy comes across a woman who is too weak / drunk / vulnerable to elbow him and tell him to **** off? What if he approaches a woman and does it when they're alone on the street to a woman who can't defend herself? Where does that lead? Grabbing someone's body is only the tip of a very nasty iceberg.

southsiderosie

The Sweeper wrote: »

Cultural conditioning to politeness means most women don't assume they're about to get raped - and even if they're wary, most won't respond to 'Excuse me have you got the time' with 'GET AWAY FROM ME' and taking off running because they don't want to look like a madwoman.

If I'm walking alone at night, I don't stop for anything - time, change, directions - and I look people dead in the face. I guess it's from years of taking public transportation in Chicago at all hours of the day and night, but I tend to stop around cities with a 'DON'T **** WITH ME' face on that at this point I can't help.

Looking like a madwoman or a bitch is better than getting mugged!

Karlie Dead Keystroke wrote: »

That said, men take risks too by getting into private situations with females that are relatively strangers.

I think that's a really good point. On the one hand, I agreed with the part of the article (and the initial point of the Rebecca Watson debate) that men need to be careful about how their behavior is coming across to strange women. And I do think that a bit of wariness about strangers can be healthy. But on the other hand, if a man doesn't know a woman well, he can find himself in a world of trouble if she is a psycho. I have at least two male friends who went home with women they met in a club and were drugged and robbed. And if a woman ends up pregnant out of such an encounter, that is 18 years of craziness you have to look forward to.

metrovelvet

I sometimes think its more dangerous for men out on the streets. My dad was mugged and my brother was attacked on one occassion in NYC and followed by a group of young men in San Fran.

Whereas Ive never had anything happen to me.

I always followed the urban rules of NYC. Keep walking. Keep walking fast. Ignore all approaches. Ignore all cat calls. Dont look at anyone. Avoid Harlem. Dont get into an elevator alone with one other person there. Wait for the next one. Of course I have done stupid things too, like fall asleep on the subway and ended up in some very dodgy places.

dashboard_hula

Count Duckula wrote: »

But what if that guy comes across a woman who is too weak / drunk / vulnerable to elbow him and tell him to **** off? What if he approaches a woman and does it when they're alone on the street to a woman who can't defend herself? Where does that lead? Grabbing someone's body is only the tip of a very nasty iceberg.

That would come under "something which I regard as more serious". Again, while the impression that I'm giving seems to be that I don't see anything short of actual rape as not acceptable, that isn't the case. The impression that I'm trying to give is that I believe that unwanted behaviour of any kind that a person feels able to deal with themselves shouldn't be regarded as a person not sticking up for themselves properly, or not realising how wrong it is. That might be a little off topic from the OP, but that's the tangle I've gotten myself into.
Again, whatever works, works. I just think that a healthy degree of awareness of ones own personal safety is all someone can have. Any man who touches a woman inappropriately while she's incapacitated deserve the full brunt of the law, but that wasn't the example I was using to show my own opinion that sometimes a bit of shame will work when you can't be certain that legal recourse is possible or fruitful. The fact that I believe that not all uninvited or unwanted touching is actually assault in the legal sense is an unpopular one, and I accept that, but that's my thoughts on the subject.

Handsome Bob

While you may assume that none of the men you know are rapists, I can assure you that at least one is.

This is where the article goes into tin foil hat territory for me.

Ambersky

I dont consider the op excessive.
I just think it is one way, a very clear and overt way, of expressing or using language to describe the way many women feel they have to behave when walking around outside their own home.
Not every woman feels the need to use these "war zone" tactics but many I know do, but dont think about it too much, we just do it and take it for granted that thats how it is.
I personally know many women who have been sexually assaulted in and out of their own homes either as children or as adults, many.
So no I dont think its an over reaction. I think its very sensible behaviour given the circumstances.

A very close friend of mine, a woman in her late 40s was recently raped at a family event she was invited to in another european city.
She is a very copped on woman but you never know how you are going to react to an invasion on your person like this and because of various faults in the system of recording and taking evidence, and her own upset at the time incapacating her from seeing to it that things were done properly, there will be no court case or charges taken against the assailant.
Remember statistically this is usually the case.
Men usually get away with rape.....I know I know Im not suppose to say that.
One in ten rapes are reported on average and one in ten that do go to court result in a conviction, so thats a one percent 1% chance of getting a conviction. Sure some contraceptives dont have as high a success rate.

In the Dublin area I am very wary of walking alone in public parks, on beaches among the sand dunes etc depending on how sheltered or wooded the area is, I judge whats going on around me get a feel for the area and often turn back even in daylight and just dont venture in.
I dont go down certain streets after certain hours, cross roads when I see men walking towards me or behind me, rehearse what I would do if attacked, look for safe exit areas or possible help around.

All this is just normal, I dont go on about it or complain generally or even think too much about it too much, its just normal.
I do go out at night alone, I do walk in the city for certain distances in certain areas alone.
In my own home if I am sleeping in the house alone I lock all internal and external doors and have a house alarm.
Even on a warm night I am too afraid to sleep with my bedroom door unlocked.

The reason I do not have full use of public parks, beaches, some urban areas and my own home is because of the fear of rape.

Now if I look at that sentence another way its not because of my fear of rape that I dont have access to beautiful natural areas or feel free to walk on any city street I choose or even feel free to sleep with my bedroom door open.
My fear is not the cause.
Male violence is the cause, but its not culturally acceptable to say that.
Its ok to say womens fear is not ok or to criticise it but we arent suppose to actually say, male violence, let alone criticise it.
We are use to putting responsibility on women.
What could women do to avoid rape?
Are women over reacting to rape?
Are women not behaving responsibly enough to prevent rape?

Is the question
Are we becoming too afraid of men?
yet another fault we are finding in women, yet another way we just arent getting this issue right.
I think it is.

Magic Beans

"Men are bad", I think we get the picture thanks.

Those of us who currently seem to be decent caring sons, fathers, brothers and husbands are obviously violent abusers and rapists who just haven't got around to doing it yet.

Should all men be eradicated, after having their sperm harvested and then being castrated of course?

Over the top? Anymore over the top then some of the other posts on here? Is there any hope for humanity?

ToniTuddle

metrovelvet wrote: »

^ Touching someone at all without their permission is a minor assault charge right there.... you can't just grab someone's ass..ffs.

See folks don't really grab asses up here....they actually smack them And I aint talking a light playful smack....I mean the kind that brings tears to your eyes and leaves ye hobbling a bit!
Literally a stranger comes up behind you in the club and properly forcefully smacks your ass hard then runs away.

I couldn't even begin to count how many times that has happened me.
Lads think it's funny :mad: Soo bloody sick of it which is why I take it very feicin seriously. If I ever manage to catch someone (they run away through the crowd pretty fast so you can't even see what they look like!) doing it again they will be getting a slap right across the face or a knee to the balls for it. Don't care if that makes me look like a scumbag I'm not having some dickhead think he can get away with that crap.

The Sweeper wrote: »

You're dead right, it isn't worth the risk.

If you're walking somewhere with your keys sticking out through your fingers, you need to be in a taxi, or phoning a friend to come and meet you, or doing something to mean you're no longer unsafe.

Problem with the keys, self-defence mode, is often an assault won't be someone jumping you from behind. Maybe someone approaches you and asks you the time - you look down at your watch and you're broadsided.

Cultural conditioning to politeness means most women don't assume they're about to get raped - and even if they're wary, most won't respond to 'Excuse me have you got the time' with 'GET AWAY FROM ME' and taking off running because they don't want to look like a madwoman.

When I think back on all those times walking home from work with my work shirt on it was insane. Everyone knows waitresses get their tips at end of night so I would have been perfect to mug! Seeing as my other 2 flatmates all walked home alone and they had been living there for months figured it must be safe enough.

Only after I'd been there 2 months did my flatmate tell me how on part of the walk home a Chinese girl had been brutally raped, tortured and murdered at like 8:30pm few months before that. Here was me walking back along that route after feicin midnight! :eek:

There was a rapist on the loose up here in my home town last year about 4 girls attacked in 2 weeks. One out walking her dog during daylight hours, another the taxi had literally just taken off and she was opening her door after a night out and he jumped her.
So yeah around that time folks were very suspicous of any lad walking about by himself. But I was more concerned about my male mates, thought it was stupid of any lads at that time to be walking about by themselves as they could get accused of being this rapist. Warned all my male friends to make damn sure they had someone with them when they were out and about.

I'd agree with you on the politeness thing. Don't wear a watch but suppose they would simply say something else then to distract you.

krudler

ToniTuddle wrote: »

See folks don't really grab asses up here....they actually smack them And I aint talking a light playful smack....I mean the kind that brings tears to your eyes and leaves ye hobbling a bit!
Literally a stranger comes up behind you in the club and properly forcefully smacks your ass hard then runs away.

where the hell do you live?

ToniTuddle

krudler wrote: »

where the hell do you live?

Donegal >.<

krudler

ToniTuddle wrote: »

Donegal >.<

And these are grown men acting like schoolkids?

ToniTuddle

krudler wrote: »

And these are grown men acting like schoolkids?

Yeah basically. It's hard to imagine I know!
I stopped wearing skirts and started wearing jeans or black trousers out, the incidents did decrease. Only happened if I was out with the girls, though thankfully hasn't happened in the last 2 years as have a bunch of male friends from college that I normally head out with now.

the_syco

Ambersky wrote: »

One in ten rapes are reported on average and one in ten that do go to court result in a conviction, so thats a one percent 1% chance of getting a conviction.

Because of such a low rate, I've never heard of a woman who falsely accused a man of rape of getting any jail time, in case it dissuades women coming forward.

Ambersky wrote: »

I judge whats going on around me get a feel for the area and often turn back even in daylight and just dont venture in.
I dont go down certain streets after certain hours, cross roads when I see men walking towards me or behind me, rehearse what I would do if attacked, look for safe exit areas or possible help around.

Situational awareness is underrated IMO. If walking in an area I do not know, I will know who is behind me, in front of me, and to the side of me, of where I'm headed, and what also landmarks that I can use in case I have to detour.

Ambersky wrote: »

What could women do to avoid rape?
Are women over reacting to rape?
Are women not behaving responsibly enough to prevent rape?

If you insert "attack" in place of "rape", and "men" instead of "women", the scenario involving beaches, public parks, etc, come into play. Also walking the street comes into play, as does walking anywhere after dark.

ToniTuddle wrote: »

Literally a stranger comes up behind you in the club and properly forcefully smacks your ass hard then runs away.

I'll blame American comedies for this; most "macho orientated" movies contain lots of ass slapping, with the girls taking this as a "good thing". I see this as a possible after-effect of this sh|te happening in old movies where the "macho" man would slap girls asses to show dominance.

=-=

Would I "just get another lift"? No. Esp if I was waiting for the lift to come back down. I tend to stand in front of the woman in the lift, as it allows me to look at the door, as opposed to being behind the woman.

Finally, I'm of the opinion that if you fear walking down the street, you should learn how to defend yourself; living in constant fear shouldn't be a way of life. And if you see 1 in ten males as a rapist, you'll be living in a lot of fear.

Ambersky

the_psyco said
I've never heard of a woman who falsely accused a man of rape of getting any jail time, in case it dissuades women coming forward.

The Telegraph 11/7/11
Prison is "inevitable" for women who falsely cry rape because it "drives a nail" in to the rape conviction rate, senior judges have warned.
Jennifer Day was jailed for two years and sentenced at Basildon Crown Court in July this year after being convicted of perverting the course of justice by making a false complaint of rape

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/6468036/Prison-inevitable-for-false-rape-claims.html

The psyco said
If you insert "attack" in place of "rape", and "men" instead of "women",

Can we not just talk about women and rape.
Is that not ok.

Stheno

Magic Beans wrote: »

"Men are bad", I think we get the picture thanks.

Those of us who currently seem to be decent caring sons, fathers, brothers and husbands are obviously violent abusers and rapists who just haven't got around to doing it yet.

Should all men be eradicated, after having their sperm harvested and then being castrated of course?

Over the top? Anymore over the top then some of the other posts on here? Is there any hope for humanity?

Infracted, please read the charter before posting again.

For everyone else on the thread, please remember that this is the ladies lounge, for women to discuss topics from their perspective

ToniTuddle

Ambersky wrote: »

Can we not just talk about women and rape.
Is that not ok.

Think ye have taken what the syco said out of context. He isn't trying to take away from the discussion or change it. He's simply saying that in those places or walking alone, men can be attacked too.

Elle Collins

ToniTuddle wrote: »

Think ye have taken what the syco said out of context. He isn't trying to take away from the discussion or change it. He's simply saying that in those places or walking alone, men can be attacked too.

Yes and they often are attacked, by - oh lo and behold - other men!

the_syco

ToniTuddle wrote: »

He's simply saying that in those places or walking alone, men can be attacked too.

Sums up my point, to be honest.

If you're afraid to walk around, my advice would be learn how to defend yourself, and get some strength (please note that I didn't say muscle).

If someone attacks me, I'd probably kick them in the balls and run. Fair fights are for movies, so if someone attacks me it'd be wise to consider that they think they can beat me, by strength, skill, or weapon. If you're a woman who thinks she may be overpowered by a man, do a self defence class, and learn the pressure points to allow you to escape if you have to.

Ambersky

No I know that men can be attacked too.
I also know that 4% of rapes are of men and 96% of rapes are of women.
And I know there have been rare instances of women raping or sexually assaulting other women and children and possibly some men.
I know I know I know.

What I am saying is it is very difficult to look at the subject of women and rape without someone changing the subject back onto how men suffer too.

Then when I say men raping women.
That even sounds even stronger than saying women being raped by men.
I think and others may know more about language here, but I think putting men first in that sentence puts the focus on what some men do.
We are better able to look at the victims i.e. the subject of women being raped by men than of men raping women.

We look at what women did, what women can do, what they could do better, criticise women for reacting as they do or for not reacting well enough but rarely do we address what men do, what men could do better or perhaps stop doing at all.

Eve_Dublin

I'll admit that I've taken many, many stupid risks in my life. I lived between Dublin 1 and Coolock for a few years in my early 20s as a student and would often walk home in the early hours of the morning. I lived in East End London for 2 years and walked home every night I was out in a tipsy state. Lived in Chicago for a Summer on my J1 and sometimes walked home alone. Travelled South America on my own and walked home alone in Bogota, Buenos Aires (regularly...was there for 5 months in total), La Paz and Santiago on my own...one night in Santiago I got into a car of strangers (all men) when I was lost and they gave me a lift home. I just thought they seemed like a nice bunch of guys and took the risk. I've even walked around alone in the daytime in a dodgy part of Rio De J where some of my fellow backpackers were mugged and I often walk home alone here in Madrid. The only place I truely felt afraid was Quito in Ecuador and took no risks there. I've gone back to the flats/homes of strange men a number of times in a number of cities.

What can I say. I know most of you look at that and think I've acted like an idiot and I know you're right...but I just don't feel that fear that the OP talks about. I was groped a few times in my life...the two worst times was in a club in Chicago when some guy grabbed my arse really hard to the point of hurting me. I turned around and I punched him. I was at a gig in Santiago and this scumbag grabbed my crotch from behind and once again I turned around and kneed him in the balls and reported him to the bouncer (nothing happened). I suppose I've stupidly got into my head that I can take care of myself because nothing has happened yet and I can't imagine what it would really be like(bar the incidents I just mentioned). It's similar to believing that I'm immune to Cancer and it's something that happens to other people. I also believe most people are decent and I've never viewed men as the "baddies".

I've even jumped in on fights I've come across on the street a few times. When I lived in London, I saw a guy hitting his girlfriend at a bus stop at 8am as everyone was going to work. Everyone looked away and I jumped in between them. I got punched in the cheek and a chair thrown at me but I managed to call the police and the girl got away. Happened in Dublin as well when a bunch of guys were beating up another guy...I thought in my drunken haze that I could reason with them....and lo and behold, it worked and they let him go.


This sound completely bonkers but I just don't possess that fear. I'm terrified of moths and of heights....but I'm lacking a fear of the unknown. I'm reading back on this post and I'm sure there's a label for my actions. It's not a refusal to be unafraid, it's just that I'm not. I truely believe most people are decent and I've been proven right again and again. I'm not saying the risks I took were right...I'd say I'm probably on the polar end of the spectrum to the OP and I know there's a happy medium but I believe you need to possess some level of fear to keep you on the straight and narrow and I don't have that.

To be honest, I don't know if what I did was all that stupid as nothing happened. I know people will argue that it's a matter of time if I continue that way...but then that's only one incident out of ALL those risks I took. Perhaps I'm living proof that you don't need to be so scared?

gargleblaster

southsiderosie wrote: »

Is to too cavalier to assume in this day and age that most guys you meet while out are decent? What levels of precaution do you think are necessary (if any) when meeting someone new? Personally I go out at night alone, but I rely on my gut even if it comes off as rude - if someone seems weird or alarm bells start going off in my head, I make a quick exit - but what this woman is writing about seems excessive.

I don't think it's too cavalier to assume most guys are decent. I don't think the author of that piece is doing otherwise. She did give the statistics and the statistics do reveal that the majority of guys aren't basically uncivilized animals.

The problem is that some of them are, and for those women who have already been assaulted by one or might know someone who was assaulted by one, the level of caution and fear does tend to go up several notches.

When I was single, if I was going out with someone (whether they I knew them already or not), I would always make sure someone knew where I was going, and with whom. If I didn't know them already, I'd tell that person everything I knew about them. I don't treat male strangers any differently, I have taken self defense classes and I'm not paranoid but I do stay very aware of my surroundings.

I think a lot of this might boil down to whether or not you yourself have been raped or had someone attempt to rape you. Maybe not, but it seems logical enough to me. It also might be due to reading stories about rapes or abductions and rape/murders that happen around where you live or work. However like Jack B Badd said, most women aren't raped by strangers - but by dates, family friends, family members, or even their partners.

On edit: To answer the question in the title - no, I don't think women are becoming too afraid of men. I think women shouldn't be afraid, and I don't think being afraid is what's going on. It's caution. Women are becoming more cautious, and that's a good thing. Until the incidence of rape goes down significantly, I will continue to think it's a good thing.

sambuka41

gargleblaster wrote: »

I think women shouldn't be afraid, and I don't think being afraid is what's going on. It's caution. Women are becoming more cautious, and that's a good thing. Until the incidence of rape goes down significantly, I will continue to think it's a good thing.

I think this is a really good point, women are cautious. I am very aware of the fact that I am 4ft 11" and weigh 7 and a half stone, a chld could over-power me:p:p From that point of view I need to be aware of myself because I am an easy target, i dont mean for rape, for most crime. I have also taken self defence classes and the first thing you are taught is not to take risks, if you can avoid it, then avoid it. (also if you can run,RUN;))

The stranger rape thing is a bit misleading, I don't know the exact stats but its more likely that you will be raped by someone you know. When your defenses are down.
Also for crime if your in your own area that you are familiar with, again your defenses are down. When I was a teenager there was a serial rapist operating in my area, he was attacking women as they went into their houses, he hid and waited till they got their keys out and pushed them in the door. (later escalated to posing as a technician to get access to the house) But that kind of scenario is rare.

Tefral

As a Man this is one eye opening thread...

I had absolutely no idea that women actually had to be so cautious.

I walk about the place without having any regard for anybody or where I am. That maybe a stupid attitude to have but its true. I got attacked by 4 guys one night after a nightclub and successfully managed to subdue 3 of them, but since that day ive never given it another thought.

I have to say if i came across a woman looking scared or indeed getting attacked I would do everything in my power to help her. Id imagine most men would, but would the woman then be so scared she wouldnt want help after?

When I am in another country on holidays or whatever I do get extra protective of my other half but thats a natural thing for me, I havent given a thought to my own welbeing which sounds a bit crazy now come to think of it.

beks101

What a horrible way to live. Viewing every male stranger as a potential rapist, every new date as a potential murderer. Jesus. I'd never leave the house.

As someone else said, obviously your view of your personal safety is coloured by your personal experiences, but I don't think anything could warrant that sort of an over-reaction.

I can honestly say I've never been in a situation where I felt that I was at risk of rape or assault. If my instinct about someone is off, I get the hell out of there dodge and that's pretty much the system I work off. I don't walk the streets alone at night, I don't venture into known-dodgy areas, but that's about as far as my 'rules' would go. If I'm going on a date, I'll always tell someone where I'll be but I won't leave his full name on my bed-side locker so 'the police can find my body'. Seriously, there's a very distinct hint of misandry in that article. 'All men would rape if given the chance' type of crap :rolleyes:

I've travelled alone, and done what would be by other people's standards, considered 'stupid' and 'naive' things...just last week I was in NY and went for a stroll in Central Park late at night with a guy I had just met. Dumb as hell for sure, but it turned out to be one of the best nights of my life. I'd probably be a 'risk-taker' really, but I don't see it that way at all. I can't imagine living my life the way that woman in the article does. I'd never meet anyone new and I'd be single for the rest of my life.

metrovelvet

^ The thing is when you live in metropolises and you read the dailies, there are always people suddenly gone missing, women, kids men. It's not just about rape, but about all sorts of freak occurrences.

krudler

beks101 wrote: »

What a horrible way to live. Viewing every male stranger as a potential rapist, every new date as a potential murderer. Jesus. I'd never leave the house.

As someone else said, obviously your view of your personal safety is coloured by your personal experiences, but I don't think anything could warrant that sort of an over-reaction.

I can honestly say I've never been in a situation where I felt that I was at risk of rape or assault. If my instinct about someone is off, I get the hell out of there dodge and that's pretty much the system I work off. I don't walk the streets alone at night, I don't venture into known-dodgy areas, but that's about as far as my 'rules' would go. If I'm going on a date, I'll always tell someone where I'll be but I won't leave his full name on my bed-side locker so 'the police can find my body'. Seriously, there's a very distinct hint of misandry in that article. 'All men would rape if given the chance' type of crap :rolleyes:

I've travelled alone, and done what would be by other people's standards, considered 'stupid' and 'naive' things...just last week I was in NY and went for a stroll in Central Park late at night with a guy I had just met. Dumb as hell for sure, but it turned out to be one of the best nights of my life. I'd probably be a 'risk-taker' really, but I don't see it that way at all. I can't imagine living my life the way that woman in the article does. I'd never meet anyone new and I'd be single for the rest of my life.

I wonder how many decent men and potential partners she's driven away by saying "hi, can I see some ID and your address in the event you're a rapist, which right now I think you are until you prove yourself otherwise, so when you may or may not rape and kill me the cops know my whereabouts? kthxbye"

Theres being cautious, and then there's been cautious to the point of letting it affect your life. Would any woman on here stand at a party or in a pub, do a quick headcount and think "well theres at least 3 rapists in here given the male to femal ratio" ?

Raze_them_all

krudler wrote: »

I wonder how many decent men and potential partners she's driven away by saying "hi, can I see some ID and your address in the event you're a rapist, which right now I think you are until you prove yourself otherwise, so when you may or may not rape and kill me the cops know my whereabouts? kthxbye"

Theres being cautious, and then there's been cautious to the point of letting it affect your life. Would any woman on here stand at a party or in a pub, do a quick headcount and think "well theres at least 3 rapists in here given the male to femal ratio" ?

It's a joke tbh, I've actually had a girl come up to me and tell me I look like a woman beater, this was maybe my second conversation with this woman. I didn't realise women beaters have a look.