Boycott Businesses Taking Advantage of Intern Scheme??

angelfire9

Not sure how many of the Clare Boardsies read the After Hours section of Boards but over here:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056313554 there is a detailed discussion about the new government internship

Apparently, the Old Ground Hotel had several "internships" advertised, including kitchen porter, bar person & commis chef
When asked on Facebook to explain why they wanted to fill these positions with interns rather than giving employment during the summer as used to be the norm you can see their response here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=73189203&postcount=495
Ironically both the facebook comments & the "Internships" have now been removed from their respective sights but is that too little too late?

Especially considering that both the Queens' Hotel & The West County are not taking advantage of the internship scheme and are still actually advertising paid positions.....

CiaranMT

The shop where I work are using this scheme (afaik). Should I boycott my place too?

And in what sense is Maman Poulet popular? I'd certainly never heard of it before.

The Uniphar advert on the site is one case. Are there more? Surely a hotel (especially in this climate) will look to keep costs as low as possible? Employing a qualified commis chef will be far more expensive than providing someone with training in the position.

I feel like I'm missing something here?

angelfire9

CiaranMT wrote: »

The shop where I work are using this scheme (afaik). Should I boycott my place too?

And in what sense is Maman Poulet popular? I'd certainly never heard of it before.

The Uniphar advert on the site is one case. Are there more? Surely a hotel (especially in this climate) will look to keep costs as low as possible? Employing a qualified commis chef will be far more expensive than providing someone with training in the position.

I feel like I'm missing something here?

They were advertising "internships" but in some cases stating that EXPERIENCED people apply for them

An internship is supposed to provide training so that the average joe soap with ZERO experience in a hotel kitchen should be brought in as a Commis Chef and trained up to 1st year commis standard

FYI a 1st year Commis is the dog's body of a kitchen like a kitchen porter but with responsibility for things like washing vegetables and maybe chopping them occasionally and doing things like the mise en place (advance prep) like washing lettuce or peeling spuds
Its not rocket science
And a kitchen porter position is NOT an internship
KP's are pot washers & floor cleaners
There is ZERO training needed a child of 16 could do it!

They are IMHO taking advantage of the internship scheme but getting interns in for the summer, getting them to do the scut work for free and at the end of the season goodbye and good luck you now know how to wash pots & peel spuds
Traditionally these types of jobs were always available to summer students looking for a few quid

CiaranMT

CiaranMT wrote: »

I feel like I'm missing something here?

yeah your missing the bigger picture - if companies can hire workers without having to pay them the effective minimum wage becomes 0.00 per hour


If one hotel gets free workers then the next hotel must do the same in order to compete and then you end up replacing many jobs with unpaid internships

ruining the economy and increasing unemployment

CiaranMT

angelfire9 wrote: »

They were advertising "internships" but in some cases stating that EXPERIENCED people apply for them

A-ha, that's the bit I'm missing. That is faintly ridiculous, tbh.

angelfire9

CiaranMT wrote: »

angelfire9 wrote: »

They were advertising "internships" but in some cases stating that EXPERIENCED people apply for them

A-ha, that's the bit I'm missing. That is faintly ridiculous, tbh.

Agreed, it pretty much defeats the purpose

But hiring a kitchen porter as an intern is also pointless you don't need training to know how to scrub a pot!
Likewise commis chefs do not cook food (well not 1st year commis) and I don't know a single chef in a busy hotel kitchen that will take time out to train in a commis anyone doing that as an internship will be peeling spuds and washing lettuce I guarantee it (though back in the day I did learn how to put my thumb in the ass of a cooked chicken to pull it apart correctly to get 2 breasts off the carcass in one piece each which is a skill I still use occasionally)

Lady Chatterton

The Old Ground Hotel are fully and legally entitled to avail of the internship scheme.

However, this Labour Court case makes for interesting reading.

This successful case involves an individual who has been employed at the Old Ground Hotel as a Housekeeper / Accommodation Assistant for the past 32 years. Initally she worked on a full-time basis but in 2006 she moved to a 4-days per week roster which includes every second Sunday. The Worker only became aware in 2007 that she was entitled to a Sunday premium rate and claimed that she had already suffered a considerable loss in income before making her complaint before the Rights Commissioner in March 2009.

http://www.labourcourt.ie/labour/labcourtweb.nsf/cfcbbe5c5fe85fa680256a01005bb356/80256a770034a2ab802576e0004294b3?OpenDocument

angelfire9

MrsD007 wrote: »

The Old Ground Hotel are fully and legally entitled to avail of the internship scheme.

Nobody said they weren't
And they certainly aren't the only employer to come in for criticism in the AH thread

Being legally entitled to something, doesn't make it morally right for them to take complete advantage of the situation

An internship is supposed to be a training opportunity for an unemployed person
NOT an opportunity to exploit the unemployed by advertising posts that will offer nothing in terms of experience or require experience to get the position in the first place

sunflower27

MrsD007 wrote: »

The Old Ground Hotel are fully and legally entitled to avail of the internship scheme.

However, this Labour Court case makes for interesting reading.

This successful case involves an individual who has been employed at the Old Ground Hotel as a Housekeeper / Accommodation Assistant for the past 32 years. Initally she worked on a full-time basis but in 2006 she moved to a 4-days per week roster which includes every second Sunday. The Worker only became aware in 2007 that she was entitled to a Sunday premium rate and claimed that she had already suffered a considerable loss in income before making her complaint before the Rights Commissioner in March 2009.

http://www.labourcourt.ie/labour/labcourtweb.nsf/cfcbbe5c5fe85fa680256a01005bb356/80256a770034a2ab802576e0004294b3?OpenDocument

That is absolutely sickening. How a company thinks that can get away with this sort of carry-on in this day and age is beyond me.

This hotel was blatantly abusing the internship system and I for one am delighted that their greed has been their own undoing - and it will be. Nothing worse than bad press!!!!

I will never stay in this hotel and will make sure anyone that I know knows about their blatant greed.

This is a big hotel, not a small B&B scraping to get by.

The people responsible for advertising these pathetic 'internships' should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves - they are a joke and the fact they have taken down the positions is indicative that they knew they were blatantly taking the piss.

You reap what you sow.

CptSternn

You think that is bad?

I am in the IT industry and have been out of work for a couple of months now. I am registered with FAS. I have received two job openings in the post in the past few months. Both were the unpaid 'work placement' (WPP2) jobs. Both were for companies in Shannon and wanted someone with 10+ years experience, a BS, and a long list of certs. I have all of that and more, but sure, the jobs offers €50 more than the dole and I will work 40+ hours a week as MANAGER of the whole IT department for a medium sized company.

I would be running a department with people underneath me who would be making double what I would.

I am all for work placement in certain jobs to get some experience for people starting out, but asking people with 10+ years and various degrees to work them is a slap in the face, not to mention as people said above, if someone does take them it will cause the rest of us to be screwed as companies would be able to hire ye for next to nothing.

sunflower27

CptSternn wrote: »

You think that is bad?

I am in the IT industry and have been out of work for a couple of months now. I am registered with FAS. I have received two job openings in the post in the past few months. Both were the unpaid 'work placement' (WPP2) jobs. Both were for companies in Shannon and wanted someone with 10+ years experience, a BS, and a long list of certs. I have all of that and more, but sure, the jobs offers €50 more than the dole and I will work 40+ hours a week as MANAGER of the whole IT department for a medium sized company.

I would be running a department with people underneath me who would be making double what I would.

I am all for work placement in certain jobs to get some experience for people starting out, but asking people with 10+ years and various degrees to work them is a slap in the face, not to mention as people said above, if someone does take them it will cause the rest of us to be screwed as companies would be able to hire ye for next to nothing.

Yet another appalling example of companies taking advantage of the unemployed. Why in God's name shoul you run a department for nothing and be grateful for experience you obviously don't need!!!

The Old Ground was abusing the system in a different way. They weren't after professionals as such, but they wanted free labour. I don't know how this scheme (and obviously the work placement schemes) can work if it not properly managed.

The whole thing needs to be investigated and stringent measures put in place so those that are currently at a disadvantage are not being exploited.

Johnboy1951

MrsD007 wrote: »

The Old Ground Hotel are fully and legally entitled to avail of the internship scheme.

However, this Labour Court case makes for interesting reading.

This successful case involves an individual who has been employed at the Old Ground Hotel as a Housekeeper / Accommodation Assistant for the past 32 years. Initally she worked on a full-time basis but in 2006 she moved to a 4-days per week roster which includes every second Sunday. The Worker only became aware in 2007 that she was entitled to a Sunday premium rate and claimed that she had already suffered a considerable loss in income before making her complaint before the Rights Commissioner in March 2009.

http://www.labourcourt.ie/labour/labcourtweb.nsf/cfcbbe5c5fe85fa680256a01005bb356/80256a770034a2ab802576e0004294b3?OpenDocument

An interesting read, thank you.

To me this is an example why anyone entering into an agreement should insist on spelling out everything related to the agreement, whether it seems pertinent at the time or not.

I found it easy to accept that the present manager believed "that the rate [of pay] included consideration for Sunday working", but proof, in the form of a written agreement detailing this, was not available.

In the absence of a specific reference the court had no choice but to find for the claimant ..... and rightly so. It was the employers responsibility to include all their terms in the employment agreement.

I see nothing sinister in this ..... if they had wished (and had the competency) they could easily have included the Sunday work as part of the pay rate agreed, if that was the intent. Anything not in the agreement will be treated separately, as in this case.

Situations like this should be highlighted more to the general public, as examples why detailed agreements are a good thing for both parties.

regards.

Clareman

I've edited the title of the thread as I don't think it's a discussion about boycotting 1 business but rather a discussion on the whole internship scheme. I was tempted to lock the thread as there's other discussions on this topic in other areas, but I'll leave it open for now.

Lady Chatterton

CptSternn wrote: »

You think that is bad?

I am in the IT industry and have been out of work for a couple of months now. I am registered with FAS. I have received two job openings in the post in the past few months. Both were the unpaid 'work placement' (WPP2) jobs. Both were for companies in Shannon and wanted someone with 10+ years experience, a BS, and a long list of certs. I have all of that and more, but sure, the jobs offers €50 more than the dole and I will work 40+ hours a week as MANAGER of the whole IT department for a medium sized company.I would be running a department with people underneath me who would be making double what I would.

I am all for work placement in certain jobs to get some experience for people starting out, but asking people with 10+ years and various degrees to work them is a slap in the face, not to mention as people said above, if someone does take them it will cause the rest of us to be screwed as companies would be able to hire ye for next to nothing.

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

I'm shocked, that is really awful.

CptSternn

MrsD007 wrote: »

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

I'm shocked, that is really awful.

I saved the letters with the job listing and requirements. I am going to scan them and post them in the mega-thread they have linked above) that talks about this sure.

kilburn

On the 27th of September last the Old Ground advertised for an accounts assistant on the WPP2 programme i know this because I applied for it.
So lets say someone started in October for 9 months they would have finished in June give or take a few days. And low and behold who advertises for an accounts assistant on the 4th of July? You will never guess !

http://intern.jobbridge.ie/Default.aspx?q=B+fomdowzS8kaDnSlUDk1zaMUPiFEeNrNWjviinu490thmC2C0u+DCOh00ZFQUnBAVcRa3WHVQ93kGrEs6qDwY5x39XZFhFifsqIjTAkYpeargahmF8jrYTf35sanl40aJwVAyz2kGjnElU6x8rM0jw/dEOyOhPmv1s5VDlbnUwfw2X2dHRIvWzneUY3QFdToLPp47sOQkp+VyMPgkX43P1aLs0BpuSKPHZ5D2tZhhX1JpaJOF/skgAMX7Ka5qNbPFdxfa7WLQk5bCrDHd8zhbvgJ/geMsK628WKgRjgdNmmGosAvQaG3R5KFfOkTKfPpZ9d2nFSjbgJPTcWYbpQqoVJ/x57fQ+qrVEzQfNNcVtVR7HunLur8xcN6jnpVz9jdTUexUb6qJdCCrUMIPLyXsqk1id3YEfeFhnoPZ9T+NDQeGQyo/IJEmJCreDsijMYvpeaOo78ueHtyhNLoVSQ6QUvPqXgNXcFrEVJFMhOnL8=

Thats 18 months work for free for accounts assistants, they obviously need a full time staff member and are just taking advantage of the whole system. :mad:

maiden

When i started looking for a job a few months ago, every job that suited my qualifications were WPP's.

I wanted a PAYING job to pay my mortgage etc NOT work placement! I needed work placement when i was 18, not now.

I only was looking in the Clare area and they were looking for solicitors, accountants etc with years experience, how demoralising would it be to work aside someone who is earning maybe 60,000 a year, and you earn NOTHING!!!

Like this for example:::

http://jobseeker.fas.ie/Default.aspx...kMqEfIzxz4FS8=

Johnboy1951

link gives a 404 error

http://jobseeker.fas.ie/Default.aspx...kMqEfIzxz4FS8=

mikom

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

link gives a 404 error

http://jobseeker.fas.ie/Default.aspx...kMqEfIzxz4FS8=

Nothing new with FAS.
They juggle links more than an intern on a chain gang.

maiden

http://jobseeker.fas.ie/Default.aspx?q=B+fomdowzS8kaDnSlUDk1zaMUPiFEeNrNWjviinu490thmC2C0u+DMvM1RlnNzRKgaZHXWGABeOCfasDv+XgpRAUkzCF7mH0CUtojfaTOzkU/TzVENjSW+9AH6a5X1u0vXWxBnJVu9KIwayZGDhKW8Vsn60iSiBl5b2obD1Gaw6iF90KvvZ/ZPz8kroL+7SCIvsOALE2RKp4wCCz534BV1Pa1jWL604eT7MS1vsxg0iATuGkOS3eGWlN07UpqD6qPm//05XMyW+cd6ytVJUYUxO703vLt9RzzWO/741Kd586ZPbLI9fbTCjGGEFICm05bJkgRAqZxrO6exMZNT/9/y81bU6xF1tzdH8uzaRZUQEQ4r2jBqZoj8GxUhruhxWf6eEZECAqnijH0h88LhLUL+f+T9X9kF0tsoSaZMlPXP8dwsmBO5FD/WS6oU6sWq0S/5yOWVjT/nVfU6xFbuuJ0yyXoKOeNlBpnAn74Z/EubU=

Hopefully this will work!

Just checked this new link and its working but for how long???????

Johnboy1951

maiden wrote: »

http://jobseeker.fas.ie/Default.aspx?q=B+fomdowzS8kaDnSlUDk1zaMUPiFEeNrNWjviinu490thmC2C0u+DMvM1RlnNzRKgaZHXWGABeOCfasDv+XgpRAUkzCF7mH0CUtojfaTOzkU/TzVENjSW+9AH6a5X1u0vXWxBnJVu9KIwayZGDhKW8Vsn60iSiBl5b2obD1Gaw6iF90KvvZ/ZPz8kroL+7SCIvsOALE2RKp4wCCz534BV1Pa1jWL604eT7MS1vsxg0iATuGkOS3eGWlN07UpqD6qPm//05XMyW+cd6ytVJUYUxO703vLt9RzzWO/741Kd586ZPbLI9fbTCjGGEFICm05bJkgRAqZxrO6exMZNT/9/y81bU6xF1tzdH8uzaRZUQEQ4r2jBqZoj8GxUhruhxWf6eEZECAqnijH0h88LhLUL+f+T9X9kF0tsoSaZMlPXP8dwsmBO5FD/WS6oU6sWq0S/5yOWVjT/nVfU6xFbuuJ0yyXoKOeNlBpnAn74Z/EubU=

Hopefully this will work!

Just checked this new link and its working but for how long???????

Long enough for me to read it at least Thank you.

mikom

mikom wrote: »

Nothing new with FAS.
They juggle links more than an intern on a chain gang.

any idea why they do that? Its the same with the job bridge site

Balagan

CiaranMT wrote: »

The shop where I work are using this scheme (afaik). Should I boycott my place too?

And in what sense is Maman Poulet popular? I'd certainly never heard of it before.

The Uniphar advert on the site is one case. Are there more? Surely a hotel (especially in this climate) will look to keep costs as low as possible? Employing a qualified commis chef will be far more expensive than providing someone with training in the position.

I feel like I'm missing something here?

Maman Poulet has been around for years and is respected in the world of news/current affairs/politics blogs. Well-researched, well-written. http://www.mamanpoulet.com/

Lux23

The Old Ground Hotel were on Newstalk today bet they are sorry they ever heard from me!

kilburn

Lux23 wrote: »

The Old Ground Hotel were on Newstalk today bet they are sorry they ever heard from me!

Didnt hear that what was the context

Lady Chatterton

Unfortunately, I suspect a lot of hotels will be tempted to follow the OG.

There are huge problems within the hospitality industry at the moment but one of the biggest issues is regular hotels trying to compete against hotels that are in NAMA or hotels in examinership.

There are lots of hotels being run by banks at present who are not in the business of providing hospitality, they are just trying to fill rooms at ridiculously low prices. It is difficult for small family run hotels to compete with them.

We have all heard of businesses that have got in to examinership too and paid only 10% - 15% of what was owed to suppliers. (i.e. Lynch Hotels)

http://www.clarechampion.ie/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1469:creditors-await-lynch-payment&catid=63:business&Itemid=60

angelfire9

MrsD007 wrote: »

Unfortunately, I suspect a lot of hotels will be tempted to follow the OG.

There are huge problems within the hospitality industry at the moment but one of the biggest issues is regular hotels trying to compete against hotels that are in NAMA or hotels in examinership.

There are lots of hotels being run by banks at present who are not in the business of providing hospitality, they are just trying to fill rooms at ridiculously low prices. It is difficult for small family run hotels to compete with them.

We have all heard of businesses that have got in to examinership too and paid only 10% - 15% of what was owed to suppliers. (i.e. Lynch Hotels)

http://www.clarechampion.ie/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1469:creditors-await-lynch-payment&catid=63:business&Itemid=60

Yet the West County are actually looking to hire staff? (real jobs not interns)

And the Queen's Hotel has a few vacancies as well
Although I would imagine the Queens is one of the most solvent hotels around, the niteclub prints money and the place is there so long I doubt there are outstanding loans on the premises

Lady Chatterton

angelfire9 wrote: »

Yet the West County are actually looking to hire staff? (real jobs not interns)

And the Queen's Hotel has a few vacancies as well
Although I would imagine the Queens is one of the most solvent hotels around, the niteclub prints money and the place is there so long I doubt there are outstanding loans on the premises

That it correct, but when they went in to examinership they received a 90% debt right off in some cases. There are a lot of small businesses in the county still smarting over it.

The point I'm making is that I fear that family run hotels may look at the internship scheme as a way of cutting operating costs and a way of competing against hotels that are being run by the banks. I'm not saying that it is right.

angelfire9

MrsD007 wrote: »

That it correct, but when they went in to examinership they received a 90% debt right off in some cases. There are a lot of small businesses in the county still smarting over it.

The point I'm making is that I fear that family run hotels may look at the internship scheme as a way of cutting operating costs and a way of competing against hotels that are being run by the banks. I'm not saying that it is right.

Oh I totally agree, there are alot of hotels out there that are struggling and will take advantage of this scheme every way they can

The Old Ground should not be struggling, the Flynns like the Lynes (Queens & Auburn Lodge) have a number of hotels they are not short of a few quid or at least they shouldn't be!

Lady Chatterton

I couldn't possibly comment on individual cases but speaking generally for a moment, there are lots of people who are regarded as extremely wealthy by the public but in reality these people are in serious financial difficulty.

Some high profile business people have been very badly stung by investments they made elsewhere. (A high profile example of this is Bernard McNamara).

angelfire9

MrsD007 wrote: »

I couldn't possibly comment on individual cases but speaking generally for a moment, there are lots of people who are regarded as extremely wealthy by the public but in reality these people are in serious financial difficulty.

Some high profile business people have been very badly stung by investments they made elsewhere. (A high profile example of this is Bernard McNamara).

Also very true, but I think we are getting side tracked which we have a habit of doing :rolleyes:
Did anyone hear the item on the radio this evening about the old ground?
I missed it and would be interested in hearing a summary?

Lady Chatterton

angelfire9 wrote: »

Also very true, but I think we are getting side tracked which we have a habit of doing :rolleyes:
Did anyone hear the item on the radio this evening about the old ground?
I missed it and would be interested in hearing a summary?

LOL

I agree, we do tend to get side tracked but I feel that if people are going to boycott a business it is no harm to have a full debate on the issues and why a business might act in a particular way.

I'm not trying to defend any business, I have no vested interests but I feel that hotels are not operating on a level playing pitch at the moment and perhaps some hotel owners are using the internship scheme as a way to cut cost and compete etc. (As I said before I'm not condoning this).

I think the point made by Maiden was excellent and the best contribution so far as it sums up problem with this scheme.

maiden wrote: »

When i started looking for a job a few months ago, every job that suited my qualifications were WPP's. I wanted a PAYING job to pay my mortgage etc NOT work placement! I needed work placement when i was 18, not now.