Do State Schools Indoctrinate Children with Statism?

Chuck Stone

We hear about how (undoubtedly) religious schools indoctrinate children with their beliefs and values but do state schools partake in the same indoctrination by promulgating Statism?

Statism (or etatism) is a scholarly term in political philosophy either emphasising the role of the state in analysing political change; or, in describing political movements which support the use of the state to achieve goals.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statism

Are people who decry the evils of religious indoctrination, and yet unquestionably accept the statist element inherent in schools, not being a little ideocentric?

http://anarchyinyourhead.com/2009/08/10/ticket-for-swearing/

What do y'all think?

May be better to put this in humanities Mods?

Forest Master

I have no idea what you're trying to ask, TBH.

tallaghtmick

Just ask yourself op......do you really honestly care

zyxwvu

honestly? that's a very good point op, never thought of that.

that said, I think it really is better to have some level of what could be called 'the state'.

biko

I'm too stupid to be able to answer that.

Chuck Stone

biko wrote: »

I'm too stupid to be able to answer that.

I'm always wary of people who call themselves stupid (they're usually clever bastards;))

Niles

Can't say my school advocated any such mantra.

pablomakaveli

A more important question is do clown schools indoctrinate clowns with clownism?


The answer is yes. Yes they do. Thats how they become clowns.

cesc77

Its friday night for fcuks sake.

Throw the dictionary in the fire and go have a few beers,a curry and a ****.:pac:

Oh sorry,serious answer ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Crann na Beatha

This post has been deleted.

sheesh

yes they do. Part of the education process to help make useful members of society so you have a start time in the morning similar to a work day.

also similar to the way your parents toilet trained you.

you are not a precious delicate little flower that needs to be nurtured OP you are just a reasonably smart ape, you need to be trained.

Inverse to the power of one!

Given that the majority of the worlds people live in nation states......It's a fair statement to say that the majority of the world accepts statism.

Really tho, what did you expect? Civic's classes on the merits of individualism and political theory of anarchism? The state is a self enforcing prophesy and is ingrained from cradle to grave to such a point where schools would have no difference wither they teach it or not.

So no, state schools do not promote statism, but as institutions they normalize it's very existence in to the everyday fabric of life.

Unfortunately individualists/anarchists have yet to demonstrate a wildly successful working model that will catch the earths attention and make people see an alternative.

Suryavarman

Of course state schools indoctrinate people. If teachers went around telling people that the private sector can solve problems and that government can't solve everything, they might have to start justifying their exorbitant wages and 4 months of holidays every year.

Chuck Stone

Inverse to the power of one! wrote: »

Really tho, what did you expect? Civic's classes on the merits of individualism and political theory of anarchism?

Oh good lordy no. That would be like a class in a convent which 'teaches' atheism would it not?

So no, state schools do not promote statism, but as institutions they normalize it's very existence in to the everyday fabric of life.

But doesn't our ability to percieve this make it not so normal? Like the fish who don't know they live in water - they just do.

Unfortunately individualists/anarchists have yet to demonstrate a wildly successful working model that will catch the earths attention and make people see an alternative.

Anarchism was a considerable force in Spain until the Franco Dictatorship which executed thousands of anarchists executed.

The CNT, (a Spanish confederation of anarcho-syndicalist labor unions affiliated with the International Workers Association) by this time (1919), had as many as a million members. It retained its focus on direct action and syndicalism; this meant that revolutionary currents in Spain were no longer on the fringe, but very much in the mainstream. While it would be false to say that the CNT was entirely anarchist, the prevailing sentiment undoubtedly leaned in that direction. Every member elected to the "National Committee" was an overt anarchist. Most rank and file members espoused anarchist ideas. Indeed, much of Spain seemed to be radiant with revolutionary fervor; along with waves of general strikes (as well as mostly successful strikes with specific demands), it was not uncommon to see anarchist literature floating around ordinary places or common workers discussing revolutionary ideas. One powerful opponent from the upper classes (Diaz del Moral) claims that "the total working population" was overcome with the spirit of revolt, that "all were agitators."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism_in_Spain#The_CNT_following_World_War_I

WindSock

Well the Irish education system gears children to function in Irish society only, and very minimally at that, just a smattering of patriotic history here and a few focal as gaeilge there....and....what was the question again? Aren't state schools run by the church anyway?

Where To

skool toght me to reed and rite:)

ballsymchugh

where do i go from here wrote: »

skool toght me to reed and rite:)

obviously didn't teach you where to go though!!

Chuck Stone

sheesh wrote: »

yes they do. Part of the education process to help make useful members of society so you have a start time in the morning similar to a work day.

That sounds kinda sinister somehow.

also similar to the way your parents toilet trained you.

Training children to not crap their pants is not quite the same as teaching them how to think wouldn't you agree?

you are not a precious delicate little flower that needs to be nurtured OP

:'''( *snif* mommy said I was *snif*

you are just a reasonably smart ape, you need to be trained.

I agree that I'm a primate but why should I unquestionably accept the statism as if it were the one and only way of doing things?

johngalway

Oh God yeah Ted. Sure there wasn't a morning I didn't have to do my times tables in a pentagram, or an afternoon we didn't have to do a satanic chant before Irish. And sure never a week went by without an animal sacrifice. Great lads them Satanists.

Chuck Stone

WindSock wrote: »

Well the Irish education system gears children to function in Irish society only, and very minimally at that, just a smattering of patriotic history here and a few focal as gaeilge there....and....what was the question again? Aren't state schools run by the church anyway?

Yeah the Irish example is a kinda hybrid which does muddy the waters because it introduces children to two types of unquestionable authorities - 'the state' and the 'God gang'.

I guess I'm trying to focus on the statist element (if poorly, granted).

Forest Master

johngalway wrote: »

Oh God yeah Ted. Sure there wasn't a morning I didn't have to do my times tables in a pentagram, or an afternoon we didn't have to do a satanic chant before Irish. And sure never a week went by without an animal sacrifice. Great lads them Satanists.

Read the title very carefully. DUH!

Inverse to the power of one!

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Oh good lordy no. That would be like a class in a convent which 'teaches' atheism would it not?

I'd argue that it's so strongly entrenched that it would make no difference. To demonstrate this, I've know a high number of anarchists who quite happily claimed the dole........the paradoxical nature of this either gone un-noticed or written off as an action against the state. On the opposite side, Individualist Ayn Rand claimed state benefit her entire life. You could argue it as hypocritical, but I'd rather see it as an inability to untangle their existence from the state such is the depth of existence within their reality.

Chuck Stone wrote: »

But doesn't our ability to percieve this make it not so normal? Like the fish who don't know they live in water - they just do.

We divide the world in to black and white and make decisions on a binary basis all the time even though we have abilities beyond this. Our attitude to the existence of the state is no different.

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Anarchism was a considerable force in Spain until the Franco Dictatorship which executed thousands of anarchists executed.

They counted a certain Orwell among their ranks

Non the less they only existed during wartime, Orwell became disaffected, and they never had a chance to demonstrate their potential to succeed or fail.

Haelium

In my experience, state schools indoctrinate children with Catholicism.

Chuck Stone

Inverse to the power of one! wrote: »

We divide the world in to black and white and make decisions on a binary basis all the time even though we have abilities beyond this. Our attitude to the existence of the state is no different.


They counted a certain Orwell among their ranks

Non the less they only existed during wartime, Orwell became disaffected, and they never had a chance to demonstrate their potential to succeed or fail.

I've only started to consider anarchism recently and I find it fascintating because it kind of makes you aware of the water in which you swim.

What is also fascinating is how Anachism(ists) brings out such vitriol in others who have some sort of in-built aversion to it.

johngalway

Forest Master wrote: »

Read the title very carefully. DUH!

:pac:

True story bud

HalloweenJack

Chuck Stone wrote: »

What is also fascinating is how Anachism(ists) brings out such vitriol in others who have some sort of in-built aversion to it.

I reckon it's something to do with most anarchists being smug, idealistic, delusional people in their 20's who are either still in college or just finished, hence they have no or very little private property and have no problem sharing things other people worked hard for.

Give most of them, ten, twenty years working and you'll see how their ideas change. It's cynical but, sadly, true.

Also, the system of collectivisation in the USSR led to extreme famine. Those in Spain during the SCW worked somewhat but the idea of collectivisation, imo, leads to isolation of communities, which is backward.

Suryavarman

HalloweenJack wrote: »

I reckon it's something to do with most anarchists being smug, idealistic, delusional people in their 20's who are either still in college or just finished, hence they have no or very little private property and have no problem sharing things other people worked hard for.

Give most of them, ten, twenty years working and you'll see how their ideas change. It's cynical but, sadly, true.

Also, the system of collectivisation in the USSR led to extreme famine. Those in Spain during the SCW worked somewhat but the idea of collectivisation, imo, leads to isolation of communities, which is backward.

It's just as easy to have private property/individualist anarchism as it is collectivist anarchism.

HalloweenJack

Suryavarman wrote: »

It's just as easy to have private property/individualist anarchism as it is collectivist anarchism.

Do explain.

RMD

Doubt it, most teachers in the country hate the government.

Inverse to the power of one!

HalloweenJack wrote: »

Do explain.

There are streams of anarchism that trend towards the rights of property ownership and the free market, Anarcho-Capitalists would be an example of this. Both move away from centralism and the control of the state, but also have very differing ideas of what would replace it.

The ussr even tho collectivist would be viewed as an extreme statist system, as would nazi Germany.

What is really interesting is that the internet by its properties has revived certain forms of anarchist thought, we now have a strong trend of IT professionals who go towards libertarianism(technotarians!), The nature of file sharing is an anti centralist attitude and approach as is the networked nature of the web itself. Organisations such as wikileaks and EFF would also be considered a form of anti-statism. Crypto-anarchists have also emerged from the woodwork to create nets that the state cannot infiltrate, bitcoin being one of their most interesting creations.

Most interesting of all how ever is how many people who engage in these activities would never see themselves as having anything to do with anarchism, much less anything in common with the "smug, idealistic, delusional people in their 20's"......I'd advise that you don't consider them as being representative of ideas that look to decentralization and independence.

Even us working hacks dream of not having to be dependant on the whims of the collective....

kowloon

Hope you aren't criticising the Heeeeeerohs of niiineteeeen sixteeeen! (Said like a GAA commentator)

Chuck Stone

HalloweenJack wrote: »

Also, the system of collectivisation in the USSR led to extreme famine. Those in Spain during the SCW worked somewhat but the idea of collectivisation, imo, leads to isolation of communities, which is backward.

Collectivism in the USSR was centrally controlled and forced upon people upon threat of loss of (more) liberty and even death - the centralised state literally got to decide who lived and died.

The Spanish example appears to be non-coercive collective organisation.

Anarchists are anti-state.

From wiki.

Anarchism is a political philosophy which considers the state undesirable, unnecessary, and harmful, and instead promotes a stateless society, or anarchy. Anarchists seek to diminish or even abolish authority in the conduct of human relations.

Imo one of the reasons people are so appalled by the idea of having no state is because of their own loss of previledge that the state ensures.

Rants in my pants

Meh. Other countries seem much worse for it tbh...

WindSock

Yeah I don't think it is terribly apparent here, as we don't have any political ideals to impose on other countries. Well, we don't have the means or the men to. And we have little threat from foreign ones. At the moment.
Even so, we are engulfed by the EU, and I am not sure what its ideals are.

Solnskaya

sheesh wrote: »

yes they do. Part of the education process to help make useful members of society so you have a start time in the morning similar to a work day.

also similar to the way your parents toilet trained you.

you are not a precious delicate little flower that needs to be nurtured OP you are just a reasonably smart ape, you need to be trained.

meh, this is a &^$£%^ post. Work day me hole. They would be better teaching our kids how to duck and dive, cos that's what works if you're not blessed with a connected Da or a Famous Ma.

Solnskaya

Inverse to the power of one! wrote: »

There are streams of anarchism that trend towards the rights of property ownership and the free market, Anarcho-Capitalists would be an example of this. Both move away from centralism and the control of the state, but also have very differing ideas of what would replace it.

The ussr even tho collectivist would be viewed as an extreme statist system, as would nazi Germany.

What is really interesting is that the internet by its properties has revived certain forms of anarchist thought, we now have a strong trend of IT professionals who go towards libertarianism(technotarians!), The nature of file sharing is an anti centralist attitude and approach as is the networked nature of the web itself. Organisations such as wikileaks and EFF would also be considered a form of anti-statism. Crypto-anarchists have also emerged from the woodwork to create nets that the state cannot infiltrate, bitcoin being one of their most interesting creations.

Most interesting of all how ever is how many people who engage in these activities would never see themselves as having anything to do with anarchism, much less anything in common with the "smug, idealistic, delusional people in their 20's"......I'd advise that you don't consider them as being representative of ideas that look to decentralization and independence.

Even us working hacks dream of not having to be dependant on the whims of the collective....

Vote now for most intelligent post ever committed to AH!

Turtwig

Wait sex schools educate what?

starbelgrade

Veles wrote: »

ffs i thought this was about satanism

Did you hear about the dyslexic satanist?

He converted to statism.

Capt'n Midnight

we had to do Satanism in History. All about the 5 year plans and the famine and the pruges and war with Germany and the cold war and how he died in his sleep.

Chuck Stone

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

we had to do Satanism in History. All about the 5 year plans and the famine and the pruges and war with Germany and the cold war and how he died in his sleep.

Communism =/= to anarchism.
State Socialism =/= to anarchism.

Biggins

Do State Schools Indoctrinate Children with Statism?

LOL

Yes, they preach about a lot of stats - maths class in particular is bad - I heard lately its holy hell!

tony007

Read Paulo Freire- Pedagogy of the oppressed

Inverse to the power of one!

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

we had to do Satanism in History. All about the 5 year plans and the famine and the pruges and war with Germany and the cold war and how he died in his sleep.

His hand supposedly went limp from all the death warrants he signed, tho others argue that it was just another indicator of what a massive wanker he was!